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Author Topic: Debts, but to whom?  (Read 985 times)

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Online Johann

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Debts, but to whom?
« on: February 25, 2017, 05:58:35 AM »
Some days ago, Atma asked the village priest who was talking with two monks, eager to learn pali blessings with much bias towards the Brahmanic purposes: "What does Nyom think, which is better, which has release as option? If one accumulates debts torwards kalyāṇamittā or worldlings?" He tried to avoid the question, while the Abbott quickly answered: "It's better to fall in debt with Kalyāṇamittā" and then the priest kept mulling over the question, avoiding to give his own answer. Atma asked once again: "If Nyom is hungry, needs food, and there are two people having rice, a kalyāṇamittā or a worldling, to whom is better to ask if needed, receive and make debts?" He tried to avoid another time and started to explain, arguing thinks like the good friend might not have food to share or is poor... so he was asked again and told that both are standing in front having a portion of rice left.
Then he answered: "Of course its better to take from a Noble person or one on the way to that." "Why", Atma asked. "Because he would never demand something that is not good for me." "Yes, if you are in debt with good friends, all you could accumulate is certain pressure to do goodness, while the worldling would always pull you down and those debts are not easy to pay back without making more debts on another worldly way."

Now, even if people understand this intellectually, actually they do not like the ideia of get out of the circle of debts.

When we think on the Buddhas advices to his monks: "Better to eat hot iron balls than to receive a gift that demands a reward, not given free" (not a word by word recitation, it might be found in the Dhammapada) it is really not a light issue to do such thing, especially because it would block any kind of further progress in the monk's practice at the moment he is caught up in it. And since he is actually not able to pay back such demands, he either turns into a slave of his "sponsors" or he starts lose all his virtue little by little making one transgression after the other to be able to do what givers are wanting.

And do not think this is only a monk's issue, it is the same for lay people as well. Take from wordlings just what you are able to give back or start to let go of desires. If you are gifted to receive pure gifts by the Noble persons or those walking on the noble path, take it happily and you'll have a real good debt and nothing to fear out of it, actually things will get better.

Atma thought to share his thoughts since he just came across the truth that only a few people has little dust in their eyes.
"We prefer google and take CCs and download freely, since we like a lifestyle without restrictions and commitments..."

There is no way to help them since people with much dust in their eyes indulge in pleasure and lazy consuming without seen the burdens in it. They hide in "forests", "centers"... simply to enjoy sensuality and becoming along with other people with the same inclination, like the same food and keep making use of the easily given world's alms to provide them with what might be called a "eating together community" unwilling to subsist only with what is given.

It's hard to renounce, it's hard to not fall into debts with people willing to bind you and it's hard to understand and see from whom it would be good to receive gifts.

And that is the reason why one of Atmas favorite Suttas is called "Seclusion and not straighter "Good friend" since renunciation and good friend, outwardly and inwardly is the same thing.
At the same time this Sutta shows that a good friend would not hide any of his facets for which one could find out if he/she is or not a person on the path.
Whoever seeks for the ways and means of "villagers" does not keep his deeds unveiled, builds his own "mousetrap", a small or big kingdom like the "Ratenfänger" playing his flute, not open to discussion, not open to share his ups and downs, not open to let others see his faults, his ways of how he gains and gives, such a person can not be traced as somebody who would not be caught up in debts that would bind himself to the world.

Give up the illusion of freedom in this world and the notion of being able to take without having remorse as a result, for actually it will be a heavy burden later, though it seems to be no big deal right now.

Once really caught up, there is no escape without a lot of suffering and tears.

Nobody can burden a person on the path with his own personal wishes, so do not take that as an excuse to let yourself be carried away by your own defilements.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 02:36:23 AM by Danilo »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Antw:Depts, but to whom?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 06:25:45 AM »
What ever relationship you follow, that means on whom or which group you relate, seek entertainment, seek for nourishment, seek for joy, for livelihood, to that you accumulate depts.

So if you maintain such in reagard of defiled people, people with certain aims in the world, all thoses depts pull you in their direction.

If you maintain relation to Noble Ones, this too, the depts you owe, pull you in their direction.

If you for example like to accumulate knowledge, allthrough it might be the good Dhamma, you would hardly be able to actually make use of it for liberation. Why? Because you have accumulated depts to people seeking aims in the world and you will hardly find a way to get off this depts since they would not easily give you ways.

That is why one should not "think like a thief", if he actually knows their ways, since it's a matter of nature that thiefs would be caught.

Its really better to be patient and seek for support of the Noble Ones as to think being smart and walk to the outsiderdesiring what you want.

As for those not a little capable to distinct between the Noble Ones, those who follow them and all the various traders in Dhamma, there is just patient and observing with attention while living together. In this time, how ever, serve, serve, serve. Don't think you can just walk on if having accumulated depts.

Seldom is it, that one have Nissaya to the Noble Ones and those who follow them, and more seldom is it to have Upanissaya and maintain a relationship with them.

For its easier when greed arises, to just *click, click* let google or crowd-work make the job, let traders be honored for their trades, organize you "needs" on the various places of stackexchange.

In that way one stays a slave in this world and aside of singing the gospels of desire together, there is not much joy working on the fields of others, never gaining any substantial and a possibility to escape.

Once having entered the right path, you are no more able to fall away, the depts in regard the Noble Ones, Liberation, already stronger as the remaining dept for the world, knowing it or not, that is what is called Pathwinner. Having walked to its end, you gain the short bliss of the first fruit, which is really yours, without depts, accuring lates with death. Knowing or not, you are already on the track of the next path or fruit. Even if not resolved knowingly and putting effort into developing, next path or fruit is gained latest with death.

In the case you might observe that you still tend to the outsiders in regard of seeking relationship be really careful since you idea of having already gained path can easily turn out as Streamloser and from now on maybe bound to the many assemblings of Streamloser.

So you are wise, even if you are not capable to serve, capable to give in advanced, to take only from those already on track or following them. How ever, the most smartest way, if not able to figure out: serve, serve, serve in what ever relationship you may fall. That will serve your possibility to join eternally the community of the Noble Ones when ever it may be the time and occation.

Even if you are a person not capable to gain path or fruit in this life, if you have the luck to meet nevertheless a person or group you serve, as in adopting their ways by associating you take on their habits and not only that you accumulated depts in direction liberation you would easier find connection later on, meet and do without maybe really knowing about the merits you make.

When small children are trained here by their parents to pay respect or to give some alms into the bowl of a passing monk, althought its clear that those small bright little Devas not really know what they actually do, like mostly their parents as well, it causes my person always a lot of sympatic joy seeing how "blessed" they are.
Meeting other houses where children just learn wordings how to get right of the uneasiness of having a beggar at the front of the house, following their parents behaviour: "Ven. brother, when have not cooked rice jet ...today we are busy ...we eat already ... today we have nothing to give.", small as they are without shame and shy, like the little devas, but in another direction, it fills my person often with a lot of compassion (karuna), for not easy they would ever met the Dhamma in this life.

Work for you present and future condition, nourish good qualities stay with the basic suggested training, give reason/cause for for ground/fundation (upanissayapaccayena), for future better relationship.

All one could do for you for now, is telling you that again and again.

If you walk out in search for an answer and driven by desire and overestimation of your self "I can", crossing over the legs without respect and gratitude, and approach fools, then you would just fool you self since you simply work on cutting you off, nourishing the idea that the transcendent can be gained on ordinary paths in the world.

There is a nice story that might illustrate it a little. How ever, it could easily - looking the same - could be also the Bhikkhus suggesting case, or the case of Streamlosing.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Story of Thera Pilotikatissa 

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (143) and (144) of this book, with reference to Thera Pilotikatissa.

Once, Thera Ananda saw a shabbily dressed youth going round begging for food; he felt pity for the youth and made him a samanera. The young samanera left his old clothes and his begging plate on the fork of a tree. When he became a bhikkhu he was known as Pilotikatissa. As a bhikkhu, he did not have to worry about food and clothing as he was in affluent circumstances. Yet, sometimes he did not feel happy in his life as a bhikkhu and thought of going back to the life of a lay man. Whenever he had this feeling, he would go back to that tree where he had left his old clothes and his plate. There, at the foot of the tree, he would put this question to himself, "Oh shameless one! Do you want to leave the place where you are fed well and dressed well? Do you still want to put on these shabby clothes and go begging again with this old plate in your hand?" Thus, he would rebuke himself, and after calming down, he would go back to the monastery.

After two or three days, again, he felt like leaving the monastic life of a bhikkhu, and again, he went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate. After asking himself the same old question and having been reminded of the wretchedness of his old life, he returned to the monastery. This was repeated many times. When other bhikkhus asked him why he often went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate, he told them that he went to see his teacher[1]. Thus keeping his mind on his old clothes as the subject of meditation, he came to realize the true nature of the aggregates of the khandhas (i.e., anicca, dukkha, anatta), and eventually he became an arahat. Then, he stopped going to the tree. Other bhikkhus noticing that Pilotikatissa had stopped going to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate asked him, "Why don't you go to your teacher any more?" To them, he answered, "When I had the need, I had to go to him; but there is no need for me to go to him now." When the bhikkhus heard his reply, they took him to see the Buddha. When they came to his presence they said, "Venerable Sir! This bhikkhu claims that he has attained arahatship; he must be telling lies." But the Buddha refuted them, and said, "Bhikkhus! Pilotikatissa is not telling lies, he speaks the truth. Though he had relationship with his teacher previously, now he has no relationship whatsoever with his teacher. Thera Pilotikatissa has instructed himself to differentiate right and wrong causes and to discern the true nature of things. He has now become an arahat, and so there is no further connection between him and his teacher."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 143 Rare in this world is the kind of person who out of a sense of shame restrains from doing evil and keeps himself awake like a good horse that gives no cause to be whipped.

Verse 144: Like a good horse stirred at a touch of the whip, be diligent and get alarmed by endless round of rebirths (i.e., samsara). By faith, morality, effort, concentration, discernment of the Dhamma, be endowed with knowledge and practice of morality, and with mindfulness, leave this immeasurable dukkha (of samsara) behind.
 1. teacher: here refers to Pilotika's old clothes and his begging plate; they are like a teacher to him because they imbued him with a deep sense of shame and put him on the right track.

As one can see, its actually gratitude that keeps on one track one found, and it's the danger in thinking that one does not have depts any more, feeling maybe temporary above and beyound obligations, that one would leave good relationship behind.

So once you see that you start to do no more approach you "teacher" that what forced you staying on track, you'd be wise to think if its already the time and if you already have learned the skill so that you would never find your self back with old broken clothes and rusty plate walking around sooner or later, like ever since.

May all beings be able to develop and maintain great love great attachment to their good teacher and always see when the "whip got lifted" when habitual return again and again.

Its of course hard in times of stories like Krabat to see the real fools and the masters compassion at the end. Two days ago Atma read about a junior monk having killed an elder who tried to bend him back on track but thinking that he does it out of ill-will, in telling him its not proper to hang around in cafes socialize with normal people and seeking fun, with strong words, he followed Mara (his defilements) and drove a knife into "his father".

That is the result of assosiating with fools. Do not wait for having a lesson on act like this young monk. Elderly are used to get "killed", so you would just harm you self in bending to and addopt the habits of outsiders by seeking relation with them.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 05:37:30 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Antw:Depts, but to whom?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 08:39:33 AM »
* Johann Since the last approach here came up while reflecting certain cases having come accross interfaith.org and devoted to supply such places like the owner Steve Pame, it would be goo, out of compassion to inform him about the talk, since my person lacks on possibilities for now.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 09:32:45 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Debts, but to whom?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 07:00:14 AM »
* Johann : Sadhu for correcting the OPs dirty spots Nyom Danilo

Today morning my person thought "where should my person share this sample", reflecting a "lesson" on debts toward Nibbana or world, cecently given.

Yesterday Upasaka Keomony attended my person on alms round. He had not eaten, actually wanted to by food and donate it, which was refused to be received.

As we came back, he gave all he had taken care before left, leaving my person take his meal. Thinking he might be scared, probably would prever it to buy his onw food, my person, after some winks, desided to make a share before, took the half of the alms bow aside and putted it downstairs on the steps.

Later, as he was up to leave, we had talked about debt toward world and toward Nibbana, also about the problem of food and it's need, he pointed on the food he had not touched. "Nyom, it would be good if you take it, since it has been sacrificed toward Nibbana, toward the tripple Gems. If you go down and prefer to order another, than you increase the debts to the world".

After he found out that my person eats only once, does not store food and that it was already enough, he told to eat it on the way. So he took a an old leave from a tree, took some rice on it and dedicated it to the devas and place-holder under the tree, removed some red-ants from the dishes and packed it in a bag.

If he either used it at least, or thought to give it away, or prefered to by more pleasant food at least... decided to make debts toward Nibbana or Mara, who knows.

It's not always that defilement try to display modestly but are actually after "win" or "win-win" ideas.

It's off course also of no good in cases where one might think "it's better to gain pleasure by increasing debts toward those who lead to a good". That is why there are often so many animals around places where monks and laypeople enjoy pleasur together, thinking on a "win-win" solution.

So if just after pleasure, aviod to use the Gems as givers of such, even there are some in robes but actually not toward the path.

This is by the way also the reason why such as Dhamma-dealer and Dhamma-consumer appear, paying and receiving in common ways of trade to bind to the world, and, yes, love to look for pets... cuddle and hug Mara where ever he appears.

This teaching should be also a reminder that a gift with a thought "well I can (will) organize my self another (or) better", when giving something does not reduce the pain on earth, does not lead toward Nibbana.

But if one instead of enjoyng sensual of unskilfull entertainment sacrifices that (without thinking," I will enjoy later") time or possession toward the Gems, that does neither make him poor in this world, nor in the next, but is directed toward beyond, here or at later time.

It is of no benefit if just Buddhadasas are left in this world, slaves of a secular Religion. For the Buddha and his Noble disciples do nor accept slaves at all. So they would become the followers of images and form believing that the objects of sense are the refuge to escape.

It goes deep and really releasing this topic and is dedicated to learn to catch the snake at it's very head, step by step.

Mudita and Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Today at 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*


Today at 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)


Today at 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.


Today at 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*


Today at 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?


Today at 12:26:23 AM


March 21, 2018, 03:42:55 PM


March 21, 2018, 03:32:47 PM
 :-* mögen sie alle noch in diesem leben das herz von avijja befreien!!! :-*


March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.


March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.


March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.


March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.


March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".


March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_


March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori


March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_


March 19, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
One leading to peaks pointing downward so that aging, sickness and death can be seen, know him/her as a sage, a giver of release.


March 18, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
One leading people to papanca, promoting rejoicing in objectification as the heart wood, increases to fields of corpse in the world.


March 18, 2018, 12:03:14 AM
Good night _/\_


March 17, 2018, 11:59:14 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_


March 17, 2018, 11:51:37 PM


March 16, 2018, 01:19:17 AM


March 15, 2018, 09:53:07 PM
 :-* ich wünschen allen einen verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*


March 14, 2018, 11:19:11 PM
Sounds like a good idea to rest. I will be taking a break from the internet for a while i feel detached a lot from the worldly feminisms and all. It is wonderful not to be lusting, walking the streets with lowered gaze, delighting in meditation... I fear it compromises me to even think about the pol


March 14, 2018, 11:10:27 PM


March 14, 2018, 10:58:38 PM
Marcel, Morits, Upasaka X, it's time to break up this auspicious coming in touch now also for my person. Observe, remember, how you have been yesterday an now and guess of what will be tomorrow probably... maybe just not sure.


March 14, 2018, 10:06:46 PM
Sadhu, _/\_

may Bhante have a peaceful day.

Chom reap sour.


March 14, 2018, 09:58:42 PM
 :-* :-* :-*


March 14, 2018, 09:55:00 PM
O yes... will be a long day, this yesterday, but possible a remorseless.


March 14, 2018, 09:46:45 PM
Vandami Bhante,
good evening (morning in Cambodia?).



March 14, 2018, 03:03:38 AM
Wie war es gestern? Wie geht es heute?

How was it yesterday? How are you today?


March 06, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
Nyom Jens.


March 05, 2018, 02:25:22 PM
 :-* erhwürdiger bhante johann  :-*


March 05, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
Nyom Marcel


March 01, 2018, 12:52:02 AM
Sadhu, eine des Magha-puja allen jenen die sie heute Begehen.


February 28, 2018, 09:48:58 PM
 :-* allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha tag :-*


February 24, 2018, 02:37:41 AM


February 24, 2018, 01:31:25 AM


February 24, 2018, 12:50:00 AM
Es ist sehr selten, ungewöhnlich und erfreulich, zur Mitfreude anregend, junge Menschen Kloster aufsuchend zu sehen.


February 23, 2018, 02:56:54 PM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_


February 23, 2018, 04:04:45 AM


February 23, 2018, 02:16:16 AM
Nyom Danilo.
(Atma will leave for a while for his almsround.)


February 22, 2018, 10:08:41 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja ich ahb die khmer tastatur installiert! ich werde in den nächsten tagen text teilen und berichten!  :-*


February 22, 2018, 12:34:06 PM
Hat Nyom Marcel schon eine Khmer Tastatur installiert?


February 22, 2018, 12:32:21 PM
So ist das. Wenn Nahrung aufgebraucht, dann ist da für eine Weile Ende, und Wiedergeboren, es wieder brennen wird. Zum endgültigen legen des Feuers sind wir hier, oder? Pfau ruft, Gecko balzt, alles in Ordnung, oder?


February 22, 2018, 12:16:35 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, letzte nacht davon geträumt, dass es beim ashram brennt!!
ich hoffe, das feuer hat sich gelegt  :-*


February 22, 2018, 11:43:37 AM
Nyom Marcel.


February 22, 2018, 09:08:57 AM


February 22, 2018, 08:49:51 AM
Möge Regen kommen und alle beschützt werden


February 22, 2018, 01:59:08 AM

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