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Talkbox

2019 Jun 23 19:01:54
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jun 17 10:19:29
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara. Everything fine, health? Can he walk like before already?

2019 Jun 17 06:34:44
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jun 17 03:56:38
Cheav Villa: សាធុ សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 17 00:46:14
Khemakumara: May all have a joy-full and fruit-full  Uposatha full-moon day

2019 Jun 15 17:53:43
Cheav Villa: កូណាព្រះអង្គទាំងអស់គ្នាសុខទុក្ខធម្មតា ទាំងសុខភាពឈឺ ជា មិនទៀងទាត់  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ ស្រីមុខក្រញ៉ូវ គាត់មានសុខភាពល្អជា

2019 Jun 15 13:03:21
Johann: All health?

2019 Jun 15 13:02:56
Johann: Nyom Muk-kamau?

2019 Jun 15 13:01:36
Johann: And own well-being, family?

2019 Jun 15 12:48:22
Johann: Maybe all busy like most at this times.

2019 Jun 15 12:44:14
Cheav Villa: បងពុទ្ធី និងវិធូរ ខ្ញុំកូណាមិនបានជួបគ្នា និងទាក់ទងគ្នាទេ ប៉ុន្មានខែចុងក្រោយនេះ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 15 12:42:16
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 15 04:21:08
Johann: Nyom Villa. All fine? Nyoms fellows, like Nyom Buddhi... havn't been seen since longer. All fine with friends and family?

2019 Jun 10 04:05:23
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 10 01:47:04
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jun 10 01:28:53
Khemakumara: May all have a fruitful waxing moon Uposatha!

2019 Jun 10 01:26:44
Khemakumara: Silena sugatiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to a good destination.  Silena bhoga-sampadā.  Through virtue is wealth attained.  Silena nibbutiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to Unbinding.  Tasmā silaṁ visodhaye. Therefore we should purify our virtue.

2019 Jun 06 14:52:24
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ kana,  Bhante. The wound heals fast and good.

2019 Jun 06 13:46:02
Johann: Bhante is fine, at least better?

2019 Jun 05 11:53:33
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 05 05:19:35
Johann: "N'atthi santi param sukham", there is no peace equal the hail of release

2019 Jun 04 10:25:51
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Jun 04 05:13:11
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 02 12:03:42
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 02 00:29:09
Johann: May all enjoy the bliss of the fruitful observing of the Uposatha

2019 May 31 14:40:02
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​ សាធុ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 31 13:47:09
Johann: Sadhu and Anumodana Nyom.

2019 May 31 12:40:14
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយព្រះអង្គឆាប់ជាសះស្បើយ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 31 12:39:05
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គKhemakumara ត្រូវបានពុទ្ធបរិស័ទនិមន្តទៅគ្លីនីកនៅជិតវត្តកាលពីម៉ោង​2 និងបានវះកាត់ព្យាបាល រួចត្រឡប់ទៅវត្ត

2019 May 31 12:36:20
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ ព្រះ​អង្គ​ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 29 09:03:01
Johann: Had overseen Bhante here. Bhante Ariyadhammika  _/\_

2019 May 29 02:19:33
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 28 04:18:48
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 27 10:03:55
Johann: Much in German, Nyom, currently. Atma will try to translate as much as possible, step by step.

2019 May 26 03:04:21
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 26 03:04:06
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​

2019 May 26 01:02:17
Johann: Sadhu

2019 May 26 00:44:22
Khemakumara: May all have a meritful Uposatha day. Meeting some good friends (kalyanamitta) and som(e) sil(a) សំម សីល!

2019 May 24 14:13:29
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 May 24 13:28:52
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 24 05:23:33
Johann: Venerable

2019 May 24 05:22:57
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann

2019 May 24 02:08:29
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa.

2019 May 24 01:55:56
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 24 01:54:14
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 24 01:49:43
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 24 01:06:04
Johann: Venerable Ariyadhammika  _/\_

2019 May 20 04:14:26
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 20 01:31:27
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Indannano

2019 May 19 11:28:39
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 May 19 11:27:48
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 18 23:55:08
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 18 10:34:49
amanaki: Thank you Johann  _/\_

2019 May 18 09:59:33
Johann: Nyom Amanaki. Mudita that you may have possible found what searched for on a special day.

2019 May 18 09:24:56
Maria:  _/\_

2019 May 18 09:24:35
Maria: werter Bhante!

2019 May 18 09:22:43
Johann: Nyom Mizi

2019 May 18 09:21:31
Johann: Nyom Sophorn, Nyom Villa... may all here but also there rejoice in own and others goodness.

2019 May 18 05:03:47
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 18 02:16:49
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 14 07:51:30
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 May 14 05:40:54
Johann: As long as not using telefon while riding. Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2019 May 13 18:38:46
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ (sitting in Taxi)

2019 May 12 15:44:32
Johann: But better ask Nyom Chanroth, since Atma does not walk that far these days.

2019 May 12 15:04:01
Johann: not teally, Nyom Vithou. Still less water in the streams here. Some still dry. Needs a while down from the mountains and not that much rain yet.

2019 May 12 14:54:37
Vithou: how is the road Bhante? Is it float at the mountain leg?

2019 May 12 14:51:59
Vithou:   _/\_

2019 May 12 14:40:43
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Nothing special. Yes, rain is present every afternoon since some days.

2019 May 12 14:38:33
Vithou: Bhante, how is everything at Asrum? Is it raining everyday?

2019 May 12 07:05:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 12 03:58:19
Johann: a joyful day in merits on this Sila-day

2019 May 11 17:04:10
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_

2019 May 11 16:16:56
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 11 05:35:39
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 11 00:52:44
Johann: an meritful Uposatha, those keeping it today

2019 May 10 17:14:43
Moritz: Chom reap leah, I am going to work. _/\_

2019 May 10 17:09:07
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 May 10 17:07:14
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 10 16:19:14
Moritz: Chom reap sour, bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 07 19:12:10
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Just some hours ago, thought of him.

2019 May 05 04:26:53
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 04 11:41:08
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 04 10:27:38
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 May 03 10:08:09
Khemakumara: Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 03 01:17:53
Johann: A meritful new moon Uposatha those celebrating it today.

2019 May 03 01:16:05
Johann: Talk box is buggy and lines love to jump. Better not editing.

2019 May 03 01:14:19
Johann: U Chanroth: "ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំបាទ បានទទួលនៅសម្ភារៈមួយចំនួន សម្រាប់កសាងអាស្រមថ្មទូកសូមជូនបុណ្យដល់ពុទ្ធបរិសទ័ទាំងអស់គ

2019 May 02 15:15:58
Cheav Villa:   <.I.> _/\_

2019 May 02 15:15:17
Cheav Villa: Sorry because of kh font doesn't run well on my phone. Kana go to edit  to see the right  shout but  was wrong by deleting Pou  Chanroth 's  shout

2019 May 02 15:01:04
Cheav Villa: Mudita  :) _/\_

2019 May 02 13:47:17
Moritz: Anumodana puñña kusala! _/\_

2019 May 01 14:49:38
Johann: Now some monks are so close to many, that they can be visited even by feet.

2019 May 01 06:27:25
Johann: Thats accoss the whole city and hot (but cloudy  :) ) Best wishes and greatings.

2019 May 01 06:22:36
Cheav Villa: Get lost in the jungle of Phnom Penh from 2pm till 6pm

2019 May 01 05:40:26
Cheav Villa: Bhante Khemakumara arrived at Wat Sophea Khun in late evening  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 29 09:19:56
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Apr 29 08:51:27
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 29 03:07:40
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_ I am going to sleep.

2019 Apr 29 02:59:19
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

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Author Topic: Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat: So you'd like to ordain...  (Read 1930 times)

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Online Johann

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat


One of Ajahn Chah's main purposes for establishing an international forest monastery was to offer a solid training as a Buddhist monk to foreigners unfamiliar with Thai culture, using English language for communication and instruction. So in 1975 Wat Pah Nanachat came to be, as a place where Westerners (or other non-Thai speakers) can take on the yellow robes and become Buddhist monks. It has proved very useful to enter the monastic life taking gradual steps, as life in a foreign culture with its new forms and routines does not come easy for most non-native Buddhists, and takes time.

The following is a description of the various stages involved in becoming a monk at Wat Pah Nanachat.


So you'd like to ordain...

There are several stages that we go through at Wat Pah Nanachat in making the transition from lay person to monk (bhikkhu). Having the intention to prepare for ordination, you would first stay in the monastery as an eight-precept layperson for about one month. Then you would become a white-robed postulant (anagarika, a 'homeless-one', in Thai known as a 'pa-kow'). Pa-kows make a formal commitment to the eight precepts, and begin to train in the general monastic rules. After about four to six months, one can proceed to request the Going Forth (pabbajja) as a novice (samanera). The main difference between a pa-kow and a novice is that a pa-kow is still able to own and handle money, and therefore has more freedom and independence, while the novice adopts an additional precept that prevents him from ownership and the handling and use of money. This makes the samanera a full alms mendicant relying on the support of the lay community for his living. Novices wear the same brown robes as the monks and train in almost the same ways as the monks, but their explicit code of rules is much smaller and less detailed. At Wat Pah Nanachat our novices already start studying the monks rules, and also acquire various basic skills of monastic life such as chanting and making robes and other requisites. Otherwise novices practice meditation and apply themselves to the duties of communal life just as the monks.

If everything goes smoothly, one is well prepared, and the Sangha considers one ready for bhikkhu life, after about one year as a novice, one can proceed to request Higher Ordination (upasampada) and become a part of the bhikkhu Sangha. This is a typical course of training that our monastery has used for many years now and seems to work well. It is a gradual way of becoming familiar and adapting to the new lifestyle, Thai culture, practices and rules of conduct as a monk, and it also enables our community to get to know its new members in an unhurried way. In addition, being a novice and already living in the midst of the Sangha is a very conducive opportunity to reiterate or clarify ones own plans and possibly communicate them to parents and close family members before making the step to a full commitment to the bhikkhu life.

The community requests that people coming to ordain as monks at Wat Pah Nanachat have a genuine interest in long-term training within the communities associated with Ajahn Chah. The monastic code requires new monks to be under dependence of a teacher for a period of five years. We consider this to be a good time frame for an initial commitment, as in such a period one has learned enough about the ups and downs of monastic life that one's further aspirations become clear naturally. Such a long term commitment helps to create a stable community and facilitates the continuity needed in one's own practice to overcome personal restlessness and to find peace and contentment in one's spiritual search. If you are still interested in checking out different places, communities and traditions in order to find out what suits you, we recommend that you explore all your options well before taking on the training in the yellow robes at Wat Pah Nanachat, as the opportunities to travel around individually as a novice and a new monk are limited. Please also clarify your relationships to parents and family before ordination. With their support you will feel much more at ease living here long-term.

For now, we'd like to welcome you to come and see what it is like here, as a guest first and then, if you and the community wish, as a pa-kow. You will find out by living here to what extent you would like to commit yourself to monastic life in our community. For becoming a pa-kow, there are no specific requirements, but for novice and bhikkhu ordination one needs one's parent's permission. Generally we have agreed upon an age limit of about fifty years for ordination. Other requirements for ordination are that one needs to be free from debts, free from government service, and free of major diseases such as epilepsy, HIV, cancer, etc. If you have ever had serious psychological problems before, such as depression or psychotic episodes, or serious drug addictions, please be so kind to speak openly with the abbot about them, so we can realistically discuss whether or not the monastic lifestyle will really be helpful.

We ask people to be careful not to cut off their financial life-line before coming here, because even though the monks freely share their almsfood and the monastery infrastructure with everyone, all guests and pa-kows still need to take responsibility for their private needs and business, such as medical care, visas, return airfare, and personal items such as toiletries, before becoming ordained. Especially the cost of visas over a long period can be significant. The visa situation normally requires making several trips to Laos or Malaysia. A trip costs about $150 (US).

Until you take the novice precepts, we are not able to assist you in visa matters, other than arranging a non-immigrant visa the last time you leave the country before your Going Forth. Once you are a novice, though, we will take care of your visa applications without you having to arrange for any payment. Before you come to Thailand we suggest that you get a two-month tourist visa at any Thai embassy (or a multiple entry tourist visa if possible).

One last little note on something that seems to be more of an issue these days: although everybody who comes here is surely generally inspired by the idea of 'leaving it all behind', many visitors who come with the wish to ordain carry a variety of electronic gadgets with them (telephones, cameras, laptops, tablets, etc). To maintain the spirit of a forest monastery, living in a simple, natural environment, we encourage all our newcomers to give up such items, and generally we have decided not to use e-mail and internet in our monastery.

Hopefully we have not overwhelmed you with these practical details, and we look forward to seeing you soon in the midst of our Sangha.



...please download "Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat as PDF-document [dowlnload on google docs]

Atma would like to ask valued Guest, if such is really in accordinace with Buddhas Vinaya in regard of ordination and limitations of such and Atma would ask if a possible problem would start with the head intention, for both, the conceit of the giver as well as for the receiver "The following is a description of the various stages involved in becoming a monk at Wat Pah Nanachat." But it could be that it is just to become a monk of this monastery and not so much about going forth under the Buddha. Not sure about its intentions. Maybe even our Ven. Bhante Chantasaro could give us some information about it and a maybe different view of the outline in the Vinaya. Your participation is more then welcome and Atma, like always also tries to invite the giver of oppotunitiers and will send a request to the monastery.

* Atma in addition:  Atma would also ask how the monastery is managing the use of third part resources like google, facebook, picasa ... not to speak about its use limitations. Another side thing, seen at the pictures is that hungsak (the garment used when washing or coloring the robe for a 3 robes user, is far to big and probably the double of the permitted (see Path of purification)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:27:32 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Re: Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat: So you'd like to ordain...
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2015, 06:32:32 AM »
Atma is not able to contact the monastery and the Sangha, as they prefer to use third part social networks like facebook and google rather to use own resources. Maybe somebody who is using such networks may send a message and heartily invite the Sangha to tell more about this.

Or if you have an email address (as var as Atma knows are there less Ajahn Chah monks without such) to a possible contact person, that it would be good to share such here as well.


Quote from: above quote
...we encourage all our newcomers to give up such items, and generally we have decided not to use e-mail and internet in our monastery.


There are three basic schools of Buddhism and many different sects within each. There is something for everybody. In order for what the Buddha taught to have any significance at all it must resonate and be useful to ordinary people like you and me. It isn't just for special people doing special things. It's for all of us.

As far as someone to train you by email, that is doable too. I know just the guy for the job and I'll pm you his info.

Make yourself at home.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:54:16 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Re: Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat: So you'd like to ordain...
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2018, 01:42:08 AM »
Okasa bhante,

So who is the un-modernized and genuine successor of Ajahn Chah, as you think?

Vandami.

Online Johann

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Re: Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat: So you'd like to ordain...
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2018, 01:54:21 AM »
Genuine successor are always those who do the heritage. Was Ajahn Chah a forest-monk?

Becoming a genuine successor of the Buddha, Dhamma Sangha is important. What use is rupa one get's attached to. Try to get attached and find indepenency by seeing your self.

Like the moon !

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Re: Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat: So you'd like to ordain...
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2018, 02:00:59 AM »
Okasa bhante,

Wasn't he a forest monk?
Was he a temple monk?
What are the distinguished factors of forest and non-forest monks?

Vandami.

Online Johann

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Re: Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat: So you'd like to ordain...
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2018, 10:09:26 AM »
Can Deva gus find such as a distingtion of forest, monastery, what ever-monk in the Tipitaka, told by the Buddha, different Vinaya, practice...?

Isn't it more that the Buddha told that all this eight persons can be found in his Sangha.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Nandiya Sutta: To Nandiya


On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans near Kapilavatthu in Nigrodha's Park. Then Nandiya the Sakyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, the disciple of the noble ones in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking: Is he called a disciple of the noble ones who lives heedlessly?"

"Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill. But as to how a disciple of the noble ones lives heedlessly and heedfully, listen well and pay attention, I will speak"

"As you say, lord," Nandiya the Sakyan responded.

The Blessed One said, "And how, Nandiya, does a disciple of the noble ones live heedlessly? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' Content with that verified confidence in the Awakened One, he does not exert himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedlessly, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in pain. When pained, the mind does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena do not become manifest. When phenomena are not manifest, he is reckoned simply as one who dwells heedlessly.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' Content with that verified confidence in the Dhamma, he does not exert himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedlessly, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in pain. When pained, the mind does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena do not become manifest. When phenomena are not manifest, he is reckoned simply as one who dwells heedlessly.


"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four types of noble disciples when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.' Content with that verified confidence in the Sangha, he does not exert himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedlessly, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in pain. When pained, the mind does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena do not become manifest. When phenomena are not manifest, he is reckoned simply as one who dwells heedlessly.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. Content with those virtues pleasing to the noble ones, he does not exert himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedlessly, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in pain. When pained, the mind does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena do not become manifest. When phenomena are not manifest, he is reckoned simply as one who dwells heedlessly.

"This is how a disciple of the noble ones lives heedlessly.

"And how, Nandiya, does a disciple of the noble ones live heedfully? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One... Not content with that verified confidence in the Awakened One, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma... verified confidence in the Sangha... virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. Not content with those virtues pleasing to the noble ones, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully.

"This is how a disciple of the noble ones lives heedfully."


See also: SN 3.17 ; SN 48.56 .

That one needs to spend long time, being very discerning, observes... to know ones qualities?

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[Kapadika Bharadvaja:] "To what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."

[The Buddha:] "There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.

"When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion... based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.

"When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates [lit: "weighs," "compares"]. Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth."

[Kapadika Bharadvaja:] "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth."

[Buddha:] "The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."

— MN 95[/quote]

If searching for another house before leaving it, how could one ever find out?

It's not so easy to find refuge.

But one thing, maybe of help: all eight persons having overcome macchariya . And to meet them, see them, one has to overcome it by oneself first, by leaving external security, ones palace.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat: So you'd like to ordain...
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2018, 10:57:58 AM »
Okasa bhante,

Vandami for your advises.

There are many monks who stayed with teacher-monks and examined to find out their teacher's level of wisdom and discipline. Yet, where they get stuck is the appearance of 'kilesa vasana'.

If they encounter any fault of a teacher monk, he will be told or though that it can be a 'kilesa vasana' of an ariya. (like ven. pilindivacca calling other monks 'vasalo', another arahant jumping across a stream ..etc.).

Other thing is the existence of the kilesas of non-arahants. If the student encounters any fault in the teacher, he can't decide the teacher as non-ariya because the ariyas have kilesas as well. So he will be confused.

Other fact is the inability of the putujjanas to identify ariyas.

So some new comers just looking for forest monasteries because they can secure at least the forest duthanga whether they will be able to find a good teacher or not.

Vandami.

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