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Talkbox

Like when enter or join, a shrine, another's sphere, or back: good for greating, bye, veneration, short talks, quick help. Some infos on regards .


2024 Mar 24 19:07:11
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ 😌

2024 Mar 24 14:13:29
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 24 06:25:25
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha by following the conducts of the Arahats.

2024 Mar 23 13:11:16
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 21 01:07:56
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 21 00:28:58
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 14:25:49
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 12:06:29
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 20 11:24:06
blazer: Good morning everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 18 21:42:50
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 18 19:43:59
Dhammañāṇa: Mudita, Nyom.

2024 Mar 18 19:36:35
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Undertaking this Sila day at my best.

2024 Mar 18 06:17:10
Dhammañāṇa: Those who undertake the Sila day today: may it be of much metta.

2024 Mar 18 02:16:41
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 17 21:09:31
អរិយវង្ស: 🚬🚬🚬

2024 Mar 17 06:30:53
Dhammañāṇa: Metta-full Sila day, those after it today.

2024 Mar 17 00:02:34
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 11 09:16:04
Dhammañāṇa: Once totally caught by google, AI and machines, every door has been closed for long, long term.

2024 Mar 11 09:14:04
Dhammañāṇa: People at large just wait that another would do his/her duty. Once a slight door to run back, they are gone. By going again just for debts, the wheel of running away turns on.

2024 Mar 10 18:59:10
Dhammañāṇa: Less are those who don't use the higher Dhamma not for defilement-defence, less those who don't throw the basics away and turn back to sensuality "with ease".

2024 Mar 10 06:51:11
Dhammañāṇa: A auspicious new-moon Uposatha for those observing it today.

2024 Mar 09 06:34:39
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed New-moon Uposatha, and birth reminder day of a monarchy of wonders.

2024 Mar 08 21:39:54
Dhammañāṇa: The best way to keep an Ashram silent is to put always duties and Sila high. If wishing it populated, put meditation (eating) on the first place.

2024 Mar 03 21:27:27
Dhammañāṇa: May those undertaking the Sila day today, spend it off in best ways, similar those who go after the days purpose tomorrow.

2024 Feb 25 22:10:33
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 24 06:42:35
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Māgha Pūjā and Full moon Uposatha with much reason for good recallings of goodness.

2024 Feb 24 01:50:55
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 23 06:39:57
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Feb 23 00:19:58
blazer: Taken flu again... at least leg pain has been better managed since many weeks and it's the greatest benefit. Hope Bhante Dhammañāṇa is fine  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 01:06:43
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 00:02:37
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 17 18:47:31
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of todays Sila-day.

2024 Feb 17 18:46:59
Dhammañāṇa: Chau Marco, chau...

2024 Feb 16 23:32:59
blazer: Just ended important burocratic and medical stuff. I will check for a flight for Cambodia soon  _/\_

2024 Feb 09 16:08:32
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 12:17:31
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 06:42:17
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed New moon Uposatha and last day of the Chinese year of the rabbit, entering the Year of the Naga wisely.

2024 Feb 02 21:17:28
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 02 19:53:28
Dhammañāṇa: May all have the possibility to spend a pleasing rest of Sila day, having given goodness and spend a faultless day.

2024 Jan 26 14:40:25
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 25 10:02:46
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Full moon Uposatha.

2024 Jan 11 06:37:21
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 07 06:31:20
Dhammañāṇa: May many, by skilful deeds,  go for real and lasting independence today

2024 Jan 06 18:00:36
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 16:57:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 12:33:08
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila-day, full of metta in thoughts, speech and deeds.

2023 Dec 30 20:21:07
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 27 23:18:38
Dhammañāṇa: May the rest of a bright full moon Uposatha serve many as a blessed day of good deeds.

2023 Dec 26 23:12:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 24 16:52:50
Dhammañāṇa: May all who celebrated the birth of their prophet, declaring them his ideas of reaching the Brahma realm, spend peaceful days with family and reflect the goodness near around them, virtuous, generously.

2023 Dec 20 21:36:37
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 20 06:54:09
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by conducting in peacefull manners.

2023 Dec 12 23:45:24
blazer:  _/\_

2023 Dec 12 20:34:26
Dhammañāṇa: choice, yes  :)

2023 Dec 12 13:23:35
blazer: If meaning freedom of choice i understand and agree

2023 Dec 12 12:48:42
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 12 06:13:23
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a great New Moon Uposatha, following the conducts of the Arahats.

2023 Dec 10 12:51:16
Dhammañāṇa: The more freedom of joice, the more troubled in regard of what's right, what's wrong. My person does not say that people at large are prepared for freedom of joice even a little.

2023 Dec 10 10:59:42
blazer: Hope they eat more mindfully than how they talk. It is clear for the gross food, we had more than a talk about this topic. I have put so much effort in mindful eating at the temple, but when i was back i wanted more refined food. I was used to get a choice of more than 10 dishes every day

2023 Dec 10 06:57:44
Dhammañāṇa: A person eating on unskilled thoughts will last defiled, Nyom. Gross food does nothing for purification at all.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:58
blazer: I've had a couple of not nice experiences with monks that were not so pure in my opinion. They surely eat far better than me at temple.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:41
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 09 11:38:36
Dhammañāṇa: Spiritual prostitution, just another way of livelihood.

2023 Dec 05 20:59:38
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 27 14:47:22
អរិយវង្ស:   _/\_ _/\__/\_

2023 Nov 27 05:41:32
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Anapanasati- Fullmoon and reflect the goodness of Ven Sāriputta as well today.

2023 Nov 20 19:18:13
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 20 18:20:15
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 20 02:48:24
Moritz: Hello _/\_ Still possible to join: An-other Journey into the East 2023/24

2023 Nov 18 13:55:11
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 12 01:09:01
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Nov 12 00:45:21
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 19:42:10
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 07:17:02
Dhammañāṇa: សិលា​នាំ​ទៅ​រក​ឯករាជ្យ​នៃ​ជាតិ! សូមឱ្យមនុស្សជាច្រើនប្រារព្ធទិវាឯករាជ្យ(ពី)ជាតិ។

2023 Nov 09 07:06:56
Dhammañāṇa: Sila leads to independence of Jati! May many observe a conductive Independence day.

2023 Nov 07 00:54:02
Dhammañāṇa: Nyoum

2023 Nov 07 00:39:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 15:47:51
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 12:21:27
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila observation day today.

2023 Oct 30 15:17:36
Dhammañāṇa: It's common in to give up that what's given to do assist me toward release, common that seeking security in what binds.

2023 Oct 30 13:22:27
អរិយវង្ស: ព្រះអង្គ :) កូណាលុប delta chat ហើយ :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 23 18:56:09
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 22 20:36:01
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of this Sila-day.

2023 Oct 19 20:31:12
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom Sreyneang

2023 Oct 15 07:07:01
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 14 06:53:21
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a New moon Uposatha based on goodwill for all, find seclusion in the middle of family duties.

2023 Sep 29 07:35:30
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:23:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:03:11
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha and begin of the ancestor weeks by lived metta and virtue: lived gratitude toward all being, toward one self.

2023 Sep 22 22:07:43
Dhammañāṇa: If no rush turn toward reducing sensuality and make Silas the top of priority, it's to fear that an Atomic conflic will be chosen soon, in the battle of control of the "drugs".

2023 Sep 22 14:59:39
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 22 06:35:51
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Uposatha Observance on this Sila-day, by conducting similar the Arahats.

2023 Sep 16 19:29:27
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 16 19:29:13
blazer: Hello everyone! I've just come back home. I had a long trip and no sleep for more than 30 hours, but currently feel quite good. I've had a good experience, i'm happy. I've found out much inspiration and many ideas about the training and the holy life. I'll recollect and write about them as soon as i've taken some rest. Hope to find you all well and in good health  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 15 05:25:24
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 14 21:09:49
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of New moon Uposatha today (later as no connection before).

2023 Sep 10 01:55:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_?

2023 Sep 09 18:52:54
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 09 18:52:28
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 08 06:19:20
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by maintaining goodwill toward all, not only by deeds and speech, but with nine factors, incl. a mind full of metta.

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Author Topic: Zur einseitigen Bhikkhunī-Einweihung - Ehrw. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu Kritik an Bhikkhu Anālayo Artikel  (Read 7161 times)

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Offline Dhammañāṇa

  • Bhikkhu
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +417/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • (Samana Johann)
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
Den Umstand des schwer angeschlagenen und ins Alter gekommenen Körpers der letzten Sangha voller Implatate kennend: Denn nicht ist es so, daß man selbst als Mann heute die wahre Sangha noch finden kann, wie da ein Sujato als Polarisierung bzw. Operationsargument für seine Anhaftungskampagne her nimmt und der Aroganz und Respektlosigkeit gegenüber Ihren Erbhinterlasser, der "moderenen" Menschen, Brennstoff gibt, nicht zu sprechen von den populär gewordenen Aussendungen des Minding-Centers hierzulande...

Was außer Geschichten, wissen diese Leute schon über ein Leben eines Mahakassapas und der erhabenen Stellung der Frau in einer Gesellschaft wo noch nicht alles durcheinander ist, wer kennt schon den feinen Unterschied zwischen Liebe und würdigen Respekt... Dummköpfe, nichts von der Ersten Edelen Wahrheit je gesehen und die zweite nicht verstanden, dem Werden und Bekommen zugeneigt.

Quote from: Abschlußsatz zur einseitigen Bhikkhunī-Einweihung - Ehrw. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu
Der Verkrüppelte Elefant

Bhikkhu Anālayo beendet seinen Artikel mit einer weiteren Analogie: Die Religion ist wie ein Elefant mit drei fehlerfreien Beinen (die Bhikkhus, die männlichen Laienanhänger und die weiblichen Laienanhänger) und einem verkrüppelten Bein (die Bhikkhunīs). Die Wiederherstellung der Bhikkhunī-Saṅgha, sagt er, würde das verkrüppelten Bein heilen und dem Elefant erlauben leichter zu gehen.

Aber nochmal, diese Analogie ist unpassend. Eine passendere Analogie wäre diese: Die Religion, ist wie ein Elefant, mit einem abgetrennten Bein. Ein Doktor möchte das Bein wieder anmachen, trotzdem es schon lange tot ist und seine Mittel für das Umsetzen kontaminiert sind. Wenn die Operation weiter geht, wird es den Elefanten dem Tod entgegen treiben.

Dies wurde gesagt, und eben aus diesem Grund wurde es gesagt und bedarf nicht einmal der Möglichkeitsform.

Sicher kann man auch, gerufen, dann durch die Welt fliegen um mit Einweihungen zu bedienen... wird man dann auch müssen, dieses Image einmal eingenommen als Held.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 07:53:52 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Dhammañāṇa

  • Bhikkhu
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +417/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • (Samana Johann)
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
Um näher zu wissen, das Kusaladhamma hier teilen wollte und um sich selbst ein Bild zu machen, ob dieses dann auch in der Deutsche Version ist, oder tatsächlich keine Antwort, auf die Kritik, sondern vielleicht Ausgang (Sie mögen die Erkenntnisse der Tatsachen, teilen oder nicht, wie Sie es für gut halten) hier ein paar Ausschnitte aus dem Cullavaga:

Quote from: ??
The Cullavagga on Bhikkhunī Ordination
Bhikkhu Anālayo[1]

Abstract
With this paper I examine the narrative that in the Cullavagga of the Theravāda Vinaya forms the background to the different rules on bhikkhunī ordination, alternating between translations of the respective portions from the original Pāli and discussions of their implications. An appendix to the paper briefly discusses the term paṇḍaka.


Introduction
In what follows I continue exploring the legal situation of bhikkhunī ordination, a topic already broached in two previous publications. In “The Legality of Bhikkhunī Ordination” I concentrated in particular on the legal dimension of the ordinations carried out in Bodhgayā in 1998.[2] Based on an appreciation of basic Theravāda legal principles, I discussed the nature of the garudhammas and the need for a probationary training as a sikkhamānā, showing that this is preferable but not indispensable for a successful bhikkhunī ordination. I concluded that combining a dual ordination, such as that done at Bodhgayā through the cooperation of bhikkhunīs from the Dharmaguptaka tradition, with a subsequent ordination by Theravāda bhikkhus on their own, results in a valid ordination procedure.
In the second study, entitled “On the Bhikkhunī Ordination Controversy,” I replied to the objections voiced by two eminent bhikkhus regarding the legality of implementing the Buddha’s allowance in Cullavagga X 2.1 that bhikkhus alone can give ordination to bhikkhunīs.[3] I explained that the validity of this regulation, compared to the subsequent regulation that ordination requires the cooperation of both communities, could be compared to two different speed limits. As long as these refer to different roads, they can be valid simultaneously and the later promulgated speed limit does not invalidate the earlier one. In the same article I examined the desirability of having an order of bhikkhunīs in the light of relevant canonical passages. I came to the conclusion that for the flourishing of the Buddha’s dispensation, the sāsana, it is an indispensable requirement to have all four assemblies of disciples, one of which is an order of bhikkhunīs.[4]

In the present article I study in detail the narratives on rules concerning bhikkhunī ordination in the way these have been recorded in the Cullavagga of the Theravāda Vinaya, followed by a brief look at the description in the Dīpavaṃsa of the transmission of bhikkhunī ordination to Sri Lanka and its possible bearing on how the rules on bhikkhunī ordination in the Cullavagga would have been interpreted in the past. The topics I will cover are:
1   Ordination by acceptance of the eight garudhammas.
2   Ordination by bhikkhus only.
3   Ordination by both communities.
4   Ordination by messenger.
5   Transmission to Sri Lanka.

My intention is to follow the Vinaya narrative closely in order to determine what kind of narrative background it presents for the four procedures in question. Instead of attempting a historical reconstruction of what actually happened, which anyway is a doubtful undertaking in view of the fact that we only have textual records at our disposal, my interest is purely in the legal implications of the Theravāda Vinaya narrative as it is. In order to keep this basic approach clear, I relegate any comment from a comparative or historical-critical perspective to footnotes. Any suggestion I make in the main text about how the Buddha acted or what he intended is therefore not part of an attempted historical reconstruction, but rather part of the construction of a coherent narrative based on the indications found in the Theravāda Vinaya, serving as a background for a legal reading of this particular monastic code and its bearing on the living Theravāda tradition(s). For legal purposes affecting present-day Theravāda monastics, the Pāli Vinaya in the form it has been handed down is the central frame of reference, not whatever we believe really happened in ancient India two and a half millennia ago.[5]

In my previous paper “On the Bhikkhunī Ordination Controversy” I briefly discussed the difference between a legal reading and a historical-critical reading of the Theravāda Vinaya as two distinct modes of approaching the same text. Here I would like to reiterate that both modes of reading have their proper place and value; to engage in one of these two does not imply a value statement on the other. It does imply, however, different purposes. If the purpose is to explore legal implications, as in my present paper, a historical-critical reading of the type done regularly by myself in other papers based on a comparative study of different extant versions of a particular text is not relevant.
An example to illustrate this point is the finding by Schlingloff that at times, instead of the rule being formulated in response to a certain event, the narrative event appears to have been formulated in response to the rule. That is, a particular expression in the rule, on being misunderstood, seems to have provided the starting point for the creation of the narrative plot that now introduces the rule in the Pāli Vinaya.
This finding does not affect the legal validity of the rule in question or the legal relevance of the narrative within which it is embedded. The putting into practice of this rule by a Theravāda monastic will still have to be guided by the narrative context within which the rule is now found in the Theravāda Vinaya.[6]
The same principle applies to my discussion in the remainder of this article, which is concerned with the Theravāda Vinaya as a legal code and the bearing of its narratives on the legal implications of its regulations concerning bhikkhunī ordination for Theravāda monastics.

I begin by translating the narrative found in the Cullavagga on how Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī became a bhikkhunī by accepting eight “principles to be respected,” the garudhammas.7 Here and subsequently, my presentation alternates between translations of the relevant passages and attempts to draw out their implications based on a legal reading of the respective narratives. ...

Now, in the Cullavagga narrative translated earlier, the Buddha is on record for promulgating garudhamma 6, together with the other principles to be respected, in reply to Ānanda’s request to create an opportunity for women to go forth in the Buddha’s dispensation. In this way the Theravāda Vinaya presents the Buddha as asking Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī to accept a stipulation that she will not be able to carry out. Even though by accepting the whole set of eight garudhammas she could become a bhikkhunī, she would not be able to form the quorum required for carrying out the preparation for and conferring of the higher ordination of her following of Sakyan women who also wanted higher ordination. From the outset it was clear that she would be unable to act according to garudhamma 6 in the way this is now found in the Theravāda Vinaya.[7]
 1.  Anālayo (“The Legality”)
 2. Numata Center for Buddhist Studies, University of Hamburg, and Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts, Taiwan. I am indebted to bhikkhu Ariyadhammika, bhikkhu Bodhi, bhikkhu Brahmāli, bhikkhunī Dhammadinnā, and Petra Kieffer-Pülz for commenting on a draft version of this article.
 3. Anālayo (“On the Bhikkhunī”)
 4.  In a recent criticism of my paper “On the Bhikkhunī”, Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (19) takes my discussion of SN 16.13 as implying that “the mere existence of an order of bhikkhunīs would help prevent the decline of the Buddha’s teaching.” Yet my point is rather that the bhikkhunīs as one of the four assemblies contribute to preventing decline through their respectful behavior, which could hardly be the case if their mere existence were in itself a factor of decline. Ṭhānissaro only quotes the first part of my discussion, without my conclusion (15) that “these passages clearly put the responsibility for preventing a decline of the teaching on each of the four assemblies. It is their dwelling with respect towards essential aspects of the Buddha's teaching and each other that prevents decline.” The passage omitted by him shows that there is no basis for Ṭhānissaro to accuse me of not mentioning that respect is what prevents decline, and based on that then to conclude that “to quote Dhamma out of context to create a false impression, as in Bhikkhu Anālayo’s argument, is in and of itself an act of disrespect for the Dhamma.” The accusation of quoting out of context to create a false impression thus falls back on the accuser.
 5. Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (16) seems to have difficulties to appreciate that a text can be read in different ways, as in relation to my discussion of the garudhammas in “Women’s Renunciation” and in “On the Bhikkhunī” he comments: “he takes a position in that article directly contradicting the position he takes in part one of his more recent article.” Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (20) then speaks of “an era where the True Dhamma has disappeared, when scholarly bhikkhus feel free to adopt mutually contradictory positions to serve various aims, and to cherry-pick the Dhamma and Vinaya as they like, taking it out of context and so showing disrespect for the Dhamma.” Ṭhānissaro’s inability to see the difference between an evaluation of historical plausibility and an interpretation of legal implications confirms an assessment by Singsuriya (262) that (at times) “Thai Sangha and monks in general lack hermeneutical consciousness. The reason is their advocacy of ‘naive realism’, the belief that meanings of texts are something given . . . they do not seem to have an inkling idea that textual meaning comes through mediation of an interpretative” stance taken by the reader.
 6. Pace Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (10), who concludes that “it would not be in line with the Vinaya’s own principles to make the narrative context of the origin stories determine how the rules are to be interpreted.” As an example illustrating his point, Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (9) takes up pārājika 1 where, “even though the origin stories describe only incidents of heterosexual sex, the explanatory material in the Sutta Vibhaṅga makes clear that the rule applies to all sorts of intercourse.” This indeed shows that the explanations “apply the rule to situations . . . far beyond the case that the origin story describes,” but this does not make the narrative on the promulgation of the rule legally irrelevant. In fact Ṭhānissaro Buddhist (43) begins his discussion of the same pārājika 1 precisely by examining the narrative context, noting that in the tale of Sudinna having sex to beget a son, “his motives, by worldly standards, were relatively noble,” which Ṭhānissaro then contrasts to the tale of a monk who has sex with a monkey, where “the instigator’s motives were considerably less so.” Motivation is of course legally relevant and it is indeed meaningful to take into consideration these two tales, as they illustrate that pārājika 1 applies irrespective of one’s motivation for engaging in sex. Given that Ṭhānissaro himself considers the narrative context relevant to the legal implications of rules for bhikkhus, the narrative context for rules relevant to bhikkhunī ordination similarly has to be taken into account.
 7. From a historical perspective it seems fairly clear that the reference to the probationary training in garudhamma 6 is a later addition; cf. Anālayo (“Women’s Renunciation” 83f) and again Tsedroen and Anālayo (748–750). However, this is not of relevance to my present discussion, since for anyone ordained in the Theravāda tradition the legal basis for ordination is the Theravāda Vinaya in the way it has been preserved in Pāli, not any historical reconstruction. For a legal reading of the Theravāda Vinaya the text as it is has to be taken into account. Although Sujato (184f) holds that the present formulation “does not say that all bhikkhunī candidates need to do sikkhamānā training,” this appears to be precisely what this garudhamma implies. Thus for any female candidate wishing to take higher ordination in the Theravāda tradition, the probationary training is a legal requirement.

Den Verlauf, manges Datum und wirklicher Referenzen, wird dann jeder wohl selbst recherchieren müssen, gesetzt, daß dies ein Ausschnitt aus dem Geschenk an die Bhikkhunis zur Eingeflogenen Bhikkhunieinweihung (wegen Gefahren am Weg wahrscheinlich) im Juni 2015 ist (modifiziert oder nicht, im Sept. auf der Engaged Buddistseite veröffentlicht) und die Kritik von Thanissaro vom 5.9.2015 und Ausgabe des Cullavagaartikel mit Kritik an Thanissaro, auf http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/2015/09/10/the-cullavagga-on-bhikkhuni-ordination/ 10.9.2015.

Laßt sie sich die Übersetzungen gefilter zukommen lassen, so wie Laien und ihre Nahestehenden klösterlichen, um nicht zu sagen Klösterliche und ihre nahestehenden Laien, es dann für Ihre Zwecke weiter geben wollen.

Die "Antwort" findet sind, wenn es dann überhaupt eine ist, in den Fußnoten (die, Atma hat versucht sie etwas zu orden, etwas durcheinander sind und im Original andere Nummern haben)

Und noch mal zurm Wiederholen des Heldenfeiergrundes zum Provozieren der Thailändischen Sangha:

Quote from: Manfred Wiesberger, gemeinsam mit Bhikkhuni Einweiser übersetzt, den Ursprung oder was immer dazischen
Dieses Buch präsentiert die deutsche Übersetzungen von drei Artikeln, die die Legalität der Bhikkhunī-Ordination untersuchen. Der Zweck der Untersuchungen ist es aufzuzeigen, dass unter voller Berücksichtigung des Theravāda Vinaya die Wiederbelebung des Bhikkhunī-Ordens legal möglich ist. Somit können die Bhikkhunīs volle Anerkennung als Mitglieder der Theravāda Tradition beanspruchen und ihre Ordination ist kein Grund für einen Schisma.

Einfach Dumm!

Und wenn man jetzt auch noch dazu zählt, das die werte Einweiserin die Übersetzungen auf der WIX-Seite von Thanissaro nutz und eine Laienperson, Übersetzter in Verbindung mit dem Ehrw. Thanissaro steht, und auf Korrekturen abwartet, dann können Sie sich ausmalen, was mit "In Eurer Haut möchte ich nicht stecken" gemeint ist.

Das ist das Spiel des Hinterschweigens und der Taktik. Einfach:

"Pajapati akzeptierte diese Regeln, obwohl sie die Nonnen gegenüber den Mönchen benachteiligten, weil ihr Ziel die Begründung eines Nonnenordens um jeden Preis war."


Klären Sie auf, wenn da Missverständnisse sind oder wenn da irgendwo etwas unrichtes steht. Das Dhamma holen Sie sich vom Ehrw. Thanissaro und die Vinaya vom Bhikkhu Gestetzmäßigen und spielen sich dann mit dem was hilft, machen die Laien zum Spielball. Zum Schämen und wenn Sie Frauen im Kloster kenne, dann fallen höfliche Worte schnell... haben sie Absicht.

Damit hat sich meiner Ansicht nach, Deutschland das Entstehen einer Sangha in ihrer Gier und dem Weg der Forderung abgschoßen und die Damensangha damit, auf einer Hand voll Bhikkhus abhängig gemacht auch.

Gratuliere zu der klugen Investition, Kaufen auf Pump ist nicht im Rahmen der Praxis.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 11:20:44 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Just tried to keep the origin "Cullavagga" updated, on http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/2015/09/10/the-cullavagga-on-bhikkhuni-ordination/ so that there is no lack of information and lesser possibility for politics. How ever, since the system  by human intention or just the system because of my slow connection, rejected it as a spam, Atma likes to share it here. If you feel that generous, you are free to share it, so that things do not stand alone, are not misunderstood and a seek for claryfication, as a important desire for the practice is not limited.

Quote from: Message that could not be given on blogs.dickinson.edu
A modified Version of Bhikkhu Analayos "Cullavagga on Bhikkhuni Ordination", incl. and pre-reaction on the criticism of Bhikkhu Thanissaro, can be found here (maybe just insider share, but quick delivered, incl.: the people who read the book:  "Numata Center for Buddhist Studies, University of Hamburg, and Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts, Taiwan. I am indebted to bhikkhu Ariyadhammika, bhikkhu Bodhi, bhikkhu Brahmāli, bhikkhunī Dhammadinnā, and Petra Kieffer-Pülz for commenting on a draft version of this article." not sure if they really did in this amount and would agree), just for the case that the english - german information flow is somehow interrupted or manipulated:

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/cullavagga.pdf

For German Comments on it, you might be invited here as well (writing english is no problem):

Here the core additions in the foot notes:

 1.    Anālayo (“The Legality”)
 2.    Numata Center for Buddhist Studies, University of Hamburg, and Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts, Taiwan. I am indebted to bhikkhu Ariyadhammika, bhikkhu Bodhi, bhikkhu Brahmāli, bhikkhunī Dhammadinnā, and Petra Kieffer-Pülz for commenting on a draft version of this article.
 3.    Anālayo (“On the Bhikkhunī”)
 4.    In a recent criticism of my paper “On the Bhikkhunī”, Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (19) takes my discussion of SN 16.13 as implying that “the mere existence of an order of bhikkhunīs would help prevent the decline of the Buddha’s teaching.” Yet my point is rather that the bhikkhunīs as one of the four assemblies contribute to preventing decline through their respectful behavior, which could hardly be the case if their mere existence were in itself a factor of decline. Ṭhānissaro only quotes the first part of my discussion, without my conclusion (15) that “these passages clearly put the responsibility for preventing a decline of the teaching on each of the four assemblies. It is their dwelling with respect towards essential aspects of the Buddha's teaching and each other that prevents decline.” The passage omitted by him shows that there is no basis for Ṭhānissaro to accuse me of not mentioning that respect is what prevents decline, and based on that then to conclude that “to quote Dhamma out of context to create a false impression, as in Bhikkhu Anālayo’s argument, is in and of itself an act of disrespect for the Dhamma.” The accusation of quoting out of context to create a false impression thus falls back on the accuser.
 5.    Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (16) seems to have difficulties to appreciate that a text can be read in different ways, as in relation to my discussion of the garudhammas in “Women’s Renunciation” and in “On the Bhikkhunī” he comments: “he takes a position in that article directly contradicting the position he takes in part one of his more recent article.” Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (20) then speaks of “an era where the True Dhamma has disappeared, when scholarly bhikkhus feel free to adopt mutually contradictory positions to serve various aims, and to cherry-pick the Dhamma and Vinaya as they like, taking it out of context and so showing disrespect for the Dhamma.” Ṭhānissaro’s inability to see the difference between an evaluation of historical plausibility and an interpretation of legal implications confirms an assessment by Singsuriya (262) that (at times) “Thai Sangha and monks in general lack hermeneutical consciousness. The reason is their advocacy of ‘naive realism’, the belief that meanings of texts are something given . . . they do not seem to have an inkling idea that textual meaning comes through mediation of an interpretative” stance taken by the reader.
 6.    Pace Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (10), who concludes that “it would not be in line with the Vinaya’s own principles to make the narrative context of the origin stories determine how the rules are to be interpreted.” As an example illustrating his point, Ṭhānissaro “On Ordaining” (9) takes up pārājika 1 where, “even though the origin stories describe only incidents of heterosexual sex, the explanatory material in the Sutta Vibhaṅga makes clear that the rule applies to all sorts of intercourse.” This indeed shows that the explanations “apply the rule to situations . . . far beyond the case that the origin story describes,” but this does not make the narrative on the promulgation of the rule legally irrelevant. In fact Ṭhānissaro Buddhist (43) begins his discussion of the same pārājika 1 precisely by examining the narrative context, noting that in the tale of Sudinna having sex to beget a son, “his motives, by worldly standards, were relatively noble,” which Ṭhānissaro then contrasts to the tale of a monk who has sex with a monkey, where “the instigator’s motives were considerably less so.” Motivation is of course legally relevant and it is indeed meaningful to take into consideration these two tales, as they illustrate that pārājika 1 applies irrespective of one’s motivation for engaging in sex. Given that Ṭhānissaro himself considers the narrative context relevant to the legal implications of rules for bhikkhus, the narrative context for rules relevant to bhikkhunī ordination similarly has to be taken into account.
 7.    From a historical perspective it seems fairly clear that the reference to the probationary training in garudhamma 6 is a later addition; cf. Anālayo (“Women’s Renunciation” 83f) and again Tsedroen and Anālayo (748–750). However, this is not of relevance to my present discussion, since for anyone ordained in the Theravāda tradition the legal basis for ordination is the Theravāda Vinaya in the way it has been preserved in Pāli, not any historical reconstruction. For a legal reading of the Theravāda Vinaya the text as it is has to be taken into account. Although Sujato (184f) holds that the present formulation “does not say that all bhikkhunī candidates need to do sikkhamānā training,” this appears to be precisely what this garudhamma implies. Thus for any female candidate wishing to take higher ordination in the Theravāda tradition, the probationary training is a legal requirement.

One might consider that this is the very end of a Sangha (incl. the male outwardly of the decaying in the land of origins.

As pre-told:

"Bhikkhu Anālayo ends his article with another analogy: The religion is like an elephant with three sound legs (the bhikkhus, the male lay followers, and female lay followers) and one crippled leg (the bhikkhunīs). The reinstating of the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, he says, would heal the crippled leg and allow the elephant to walk easily.

But again, the analogy is inaccurate. A more accurate analogy would be this: The religion is like an elephant with a severed leg. A doctor wants to reattach the leg, even though it has long been dead, and his tools for doing so are contaminated. If the operation goes forward, it will hasten the elephant’s death."

Maybe its time to make some translations of the Bhikkhuni Vinaya (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/sv/bhikkhuni-pati.html#pr7) available in certain languages, without charge for it, as a Dhamma Gift, as given and forwarded as gift. You are invited to make use of its resources, participate and share translation, when ever you feel inspired, given as a gift and forward as a gift, the Sangha heritage.
For Dhamma-Dana and practice purpose only.
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Zur Vollständigkeit der Diskussionsbasis hier der Ausgangspunkt in Deutsch:

Einweihung. Nachdem Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī die volle Anerkennung erhalten hatte, wartete sie Buddha auf und fragte ihn, was mit den 500 Sakyan Frauen passieren sollte, die ihr für die Anfrage zur Einweihung gefolgt sind. Buddhas Antwort war die Erlaubnis, daß Bhikkhus die volle Anerkennung an Bhikkhunīs erteilen dürfen (Cv.X.2.1).

Als diese Erlaubnis erteilt wurde, bedeutete dies offensichtlich, daß Bhikkhus volle Anerkennung Laien Frauen erteilen können. Doch mit der Zeit, als sich die Bhikkhunī Saṅgha wuchs, änderten sich diese Vorgehensweisen für eine volle Anerkennung, bis dieses an einem Muster, gegeben in der sechsten Regeln des Respekts (Cv.X.17), weitergeführt wurde. Mit anderen Worten erbat die Kanditatin einer vollen Anerkennung, zuerst formal das Training unter der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, nach dessen durchlebte sie die Übungszeit, in der sie keine der ersten sechs, der zehn Tugendübungsregeln, für eine Dauer von zwei Jahren brechen durfte. (So wie es scheint, tat sie dies als eine Novizen Nonne, auch wenn dieser Punkt etwas strittig ist). Wenn sie eine dieser sechs Regeln brach, begann die Zweijahresperiode von Neuem. Wenn sie dieses Training innerhalb von zwei vollen Jahren, ohne ein Vergehen abgewickelt hatte, würde die Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, nach dem sie sie zugelassen hatten, diese Übung abgeschlossen zu haben, ihr volle Anerkennung erteilen (Bhikkhunī Pc 63, 64, 66, 67, 72, und 73).

Anders als bei der Bhikkhu Saṅgha, in der zwei oder drei Kandidaten, den selben Einweiser teilend, in einer einzigen Abwicklungsabhandlung eingeweiht werden konnten, konnte nur eine Kanditatin, als Bhikkhunī, in eine einzelnen Abwicklungsabhandlung zugelassen werden. Dies kommt daher, da ein Gönner (pavattanī), die weibliche Form eines Einweiser, nicht mehr als einen Studenten in der Zeitspanne der laufenden zwei Jahre annehmen könnte (Bhikkhunī Pc 82 und 83).

Sofort nach der Anerkennung in der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, war die Kandidatin zu der Bhikkhu Saṅgha zu bringen, wo ihr die volle Anerkennung ein zweites Mal gegen wurde (Cv.X.17.8 ). Wenn es aus irgend einem Grund ein Gefahr gab, sie zur Bhikkhu Saṅgha zu bringen, konnte ein Nachrichtenübermittler, eine erfahrene, kompetente Bhikkhunī, an ihrer Stelle gesendet werden (Cv.X.22). In jedem Fall, würde die Kandidatin nur dann als voll eingeweiht betrachtet, nachdem ihre Anerkennung von der Bhikkhu Saṅgha akzeptiert wurde.

Mit der Einführung dieser Prozedur, behielt Buddha die frühere Erlaubnis für Bhikkhus, volle Anerkennung für Bhikkhunīs zu erteilen, bei, aber formte sie so um, daß es nur dann möglich ist, wenn die Kandidatin in passender Weise den vorhergehenden Ablauf eingehalten hat: von dem Ersuchen um die Übung bis zur gegebenen Anerkennung von der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha (Cv.X.17.2).

Es wurde Argumentiert, daß es aufgrund der vorhergehenden Erlaubnis für Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunīs einzuweihen, und nie explizit annulliert wurde, dieses nach wie vor in Takt wäre und Bhikkhus Bhikkhunīs, ohne das die Kandidatin zuvor durch die vorrangige Prozedur gegangen ist, einweihen dürfen. Dieses Argument zeichnet eine parallele zu dem Weg, wie die Anerkennung von Bhikkhus sich in den ersten Jahren der Lehre verändert hatten, heraus: die Abwicklung durch einen Antrag und drei Erklärungen (Mv.I.28.3), gefolgt von einer eindeutigen Annullierung der früheren Erlaubnis (Mv.I.12.4), für Gruppen von Bhikkhus, das Fortschreiten durch die dreifache Zuflucht anzuerkennen. Dieses, auf dem dieses Argument aufbaut, erstellt ein Muster, daß man auch für die Bhikkhuni Ordination anwenden kann. Wenn Buddha beabsichtigt hätte die Erlaubnis von Cv.X.2.1 völlig zu annullieren, hätte er dieses in Cv.X.17.2. so geäußert.

Wie auch immer, übersieht dieses Argument die Tatsache, das Buddha zwei verschiedenen Mustern im Ändern von Gemeinschaftsabläufen, in Abhängigkeit der Art der Änderung die er machte, folgte. Nur wenn eine Erlaubnis, für etwas das er zuvor explizit erlaubt hat (wie in Mv.I.28.3 und Cv.X.7), aufgehoben wurde, folgte er dem Muster des ausdrücklichen Annullierens der früheren Erlaubnis oder verhängte ein Vergehen, für den Missbrauch dessen. Wenn er eine frühere Erlaubnis her nahm und ihr neue Bedingungen zufügte, folgte er einem anderen Muster, in dem er sich mehr auf die neuen Bedingungen für die Erlaubnis bezog und eine Richtung vorgab, wie die neuer Form der Abwicklung, gehandhabt werden sollte. Ein Beispiel für dieses zweite Muster beinhaltet die Änderungen der Gemeinschaftsabwicklungen für die Anerkennung von Bhikkhus (Mv.I.38.3-5; Mv.I.76.10-12), und die Bewilligung von Bereichen, wo jemand nicht ungetrennt von seinen eigenen Gewändern ist (Mv.II.12.1-2; Mv.II.12.3-4). Wenn eine Gemeinschaftsabwicklung in dieser Weise geändert ist, wird die Aufhebung des früheren Abwicklungsmusters mit dem Umstand klar, daß die überarbeitete Richtungsweisung eindeutig erklärt "so sollte dies vereinbart sein", "so ist die Saṅgha zu informieren". Das bedeutet, daß die ältere Prozedur nicht mehr genutzt werden sollte.

Weil Cv.X.17.2, der Abschnitt, der Bhikkhus erlaubt, Kandidatinen die volle Anerkennung zu erteilen, denen von der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha volle Anerkennung erteilt wurde, einfach nur neue Konditionen, zu der früheren Erlaubnis die in Cv.X.2.1 erteilt wurde, hinzufügt, läuft dies nach dem zweiten Muster. Dies annulliert automatisch die vorhergehende Erlaubnis.

Die rechte Begründungen für die Auflösung der ersten Erlaubnis sind nicht schwer zu sehen. So lange die Bhikkhunī Saṅgha noch am Bestehen war, sicherte Cv.X.17.2, daß Bhikkhus keine neuen Mitglieder der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, ohne Einwilligung dieser, hinzufügen könnten. Mit anderen Worten, konnten die Bhikkhus die Bhikkhunīs nicht zwingen, neue Mitglieder in ihrer Gemeinschaft aufzunehmen, die sie nicht wollten. Mit dem Ereignis das die ursprüngliche Bhikkhunī Saṅgha ausgestorben ist, hält Cv.X.17.2, Bhikkhus von der Befugnis Anerkennung an Frauen zu erteilen, welche unmöglich ein passendes Training in der Gemeinschaft von Bhikkhunīs vorweisen können, ab.
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