* * *

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Recent Topics

[Today at 03:23:34 PM]

[Today at 02:38:10 PM]

[Today at 01:24:08 PM]

[Today at 11:06:15 AM]

[Today at 11:02:14 AM]

[Today at 10:48:04 AM]

[Today at 10:35:46 AM]

[Today at 10:23:39 AM]

[Today at 10:13:01 AM]

[Today at 09:50:20 AM]

[Today at 09:31:12 AM]

[Today at 09:23:06 AM]

[Today at 09:09:56 AM]

[Today at 08:53:31 AM]

[Today at 08:44:01 AM]

[Today at 08:10:59 AM]

[Today at 07:49:00 AM]

[Today at 07:20:04 AM]

[Today at 04:40:00 AM]

[Today at 03:30:17 AM]

[Today at 02:24:58 AM]

[Today at 02:12:30 AM]

[April 24, 2018, 06:40:56 PM]

[April 24, 2018, 05:47:51 PM]

[April 24, 2018, 05:22:11 PM]

[April 24, 2018, 05:11:47 PM]

[April 24, 2018, 04:29:12 PM]

[April 24, 2018, 02:31:27 PM]

[April 24, 2018, 04:36:35 AM]

[April 23, 2018, 05:43:50 AM]

[April 22, 2018, 06:35:55 PM]

[April 22, 2018, 06:31:53 PM]

[April 22, 2018, 02:50:05 AM]

[April 22, 2018, 12:00:32 AM]

[April 21, 2018, 01:59:19 PM]

[April 21, 2018, 12:43:05 PM]

[April 21, 2018, 12:20:10 PM]

[April 20, 2018, 03:07:17 PM]

[April 20, 2018, 02:56:41 PM]

[April 18, 2018, 12:27:55 PM]

[April 18, 2018, 12:26:00 PM]

[April 18, 2018, 12:18:31 PM]

[April 18, 2018, 06:06:52 AM]

[April 18, 2018, 01:13:09 AM]

[April 16, 2018, 06:18:51 PM]

[April 16, 2018, 12:47:32 AM]

[April 15, 2018, 12:28:06 PM]

[April 15, 2018, 09:39:03 AM]

[April 15, 2018, 12:35:32 AM]

[April 14, 2018, 04:18:33 AM]

Author Topic: Is intention and purpose the same?  (Read 1136 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +339/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Is intention and purpose the same?
« on: January 13, 2016, 07:11:28 AM »
Quote from: Johann on BuddhismSE
Given that there are 'intentions' (cetanā) which lead (if they're not neutral) to either wholesome fruits or unwholesome fruits: is the same also true for 'purpose' (sankappa) -- i.e. are there wholesome, unwholesome, and neutral purposes?
Which purpose could be a wholesome, if there is one that fits to such?
What, if there is, is the difference between an wholesome purpose and an unwholesome? How could a wholesome purpose look like?
Definitions:
 
  • 'Purpose': objective, agenda, goal, target (outwardly, 'more or less', 'near and far', 'time and place').
  • 'Intention': state of ceto in action (inwardly)
Samples:
 
  • If your purpose is to accumulate (material things, a state of becoming): is it possible to maintain wholesome intentions?
    For example: you like to have a monastery be built, you like to have a medi-community to grow, to be maintained.
  • If your intention is wholesome, is it possible to strive after a non beneficial purpose?
  • If your purpose is to let go (of material things, states of becoming): is it possible to maintain unwholesome intentions?
    For example, you have buliding material and you are willing to let go of it, you have time and you are willing to let go of it.
  • If your intention is unwholesome, is it possible to strive after a beneficial purpose?

Quote from: Upasaka Chris
It seems I don't know, don't understand, or don't agree with your definitions (of cetanā and sankappa).
You start by assuming that there is wholesome and unwholesome cetanā: and then you ask whether there is wholesome and unwholesome sankappa.
 

Firstly so far as I know there is definitely wholesome and unwholesome sankappa. I say that because Right Resolve (samma sankappo) is the second of the eight path factors in the Noble Eightfold Path :

The definition
"And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve."


And the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta defines "wrong resolve" as the opposite of this: "Being resolved on sensuality, on ill will, on harmfulness".
The "Right Resolve" page referenced above also quotes six other suttas.
And I think that "right" and "wrong" resolve can be understood as "wholesome" and "unwholesome".
 

Secondly, I don't know whether there is such a thing as wholesome cetanā.
I say that because Karma is intention (cetanā), good actions lead to good rebirths, bad actions lead to bad rebirths, however I thought the goal (or a goal) was for there to be no more becoming at all: to stop karma, which I think means stopping cetanā.
I admit that there are fruits (phala ) defined, but still.
Don't the suttas on the subject of cetanā suggest that it's best to have no cetanā at all?
 
  • Cetana Sutta: An Act of Will (AN 11.2)
    For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.
    [...etc...]

  • Cetana Sutta: Intention (SN 12.38)
    [...etc...]
    But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

  • Cetana Sutta — Intention (SN 27.7)
    "Monks, any desire-passion with regard to intentions involving forms [or any of the 6 sense-objects] is a defilement of the mind.

Note that the definitions of Right Resolve involve negatives or absences:
 
  • Renunciation (i.e. non-covetousness, non-desire, non-attachment, non-sensuality)
  • Freedom from ill-will
  • Harmlessness (i.e. non-injury)
I think that fits with it being right to have an absence of intention. And so does the goal, of being 'unbound' and apada (and similar 'negatives').
There are (as well as these 'absences' or 'negatives') also a couple of 'positives' -- quoted from the "Right Resolve" reference above:
 
  • "abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will"
  • "one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others is, for that reason, to be praised"
Perhaps (I guess) these are "binding" resolves rather than "unbinding" resolves, and (perhaps) these have corresponding wholesome cetanā, and perhaps these are why later ("Mahayana") schools began to emphasize the Bodhisattva way.
There are texts (e.g. Dharma talks) which talk about kusala and akusala-cetana but I don't know of a sutta in the Pali canon which says that cetana is wholesome.
 

Thirdly, you ask whether a monastery can be built, or whether you can grow a medi-community, with wholesome intention?
I think the answer is "yes"; because:
 
  • The Buddha (for example) grew or accumulated such (or was instrumental in their growth, or allowed them to be accumulated), and I suppose that his intention and/or resolve was wholesome
  • Right resolve includes non-covetousness, but I think that doesn't not have to preclude there being a community: because "practice for self and others" is also part of "Right Resolve"; and for example because of e.g. the Upaddha Sutta (and kalyanamittata etc.)
  • Maybe the concept of upaya (i.e. teaching aids) allows the accumulation of such things or states
  • Maybe it's a matter of balancing or alternating between conventional and ultimate, between action and meditation, between "right resolve" and "not intending".



This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +339/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Antw:Is intention and purpose the same?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2016, 07:23:44 AM »
Quote from: Johann (temp discussion, deleted)
Ohh that's what Atma thought, a big building site, yet if Atma would focus on the purpose to clear it, it could be accompanied with a lot of wrong intentions. The "without will but full of purpose confused" are not easy to bend, if they would not seek for such. How ever, since you focus in answering was already accompanied assuming an answer which would not fit to your thoughts and purposes, it actually did neither fulfill the purpose (to give an answer) nor was it accompanied by wholesome thought. But form the beginning grasping and clinging.

Like to build a monastery: "The Buddha (for example) grew or accumulated such (or was instrumental in their growth, or allowed them to be accumulated), and I suppose that his intention and/or resolve was wholesome" Where? Look DN2

"because "practice for self and others" is also part of "Right Resolve" who says that?

"Maybe the concept of upaya (i.e. teaching aids) allows the accumulation of such things or states" Concepts allow much, since purposes need a lot of rationalizations.

"Maybe it's a matter of balancing or alternating between conventional and ultimate, between action and meditation, between "right resolve" and "not intending" No, its a matter of 1. Sila, 2. Samadhi, 3. panna. An why is Sila first? Because the untrained mind follows its defilement and sila is the only way to give it a opposition.

So what does Upasaka Chis like? Answer questions or defend? As far as the answer goes, it does not answer the questions but assumes and fears to get an answer.

  "For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will*:::*, WHICH? this -> 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' -will, for that is no act of will needed. Why? Because such a person in virtuous.

 "Note that the definitions of Right Resolve involve negatives or absences:" Where do you see negatives? "alobha, adosa, amoha" and they should not be absence.

There are (as well as these 'absences' or 'negatives') also a couple of 'positives' -- quoted from the "Right Resolve" reference above...  so you think gaining is positive and giving is negative, aside of the fact that those "right resolves" assumed are simply assumed.

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness." That's the end of the line, yes.

"I say that because Karma is intention (cetanā), good actions lead to good rebirths, bad actions lead to bad rebirths, however I thought the goal (or a goal) was for there to be no more becoming at all: to stop karma, which I think means stopping cetanā." Looks like there was a short appearing of the single wholesome larger purpose.  :) Or what does Upasaka think?

So if given that as answer "Karma is intention (cetanā), good actions lead to good rebirths, bad actions lead to bad rebirths, however the goal (or a goal) is for there to be no more becoming at all (Nibbana): to stop karma" could it fit to the question?

"There are texts (e.g. Dharma talks) which talk about kusala and akusala-cetana but I don't know of a sutta in the Pali canon which says that cetana is wholesome." because cetasikha (as the original question said) is actually more proper. The mind when acting, the mind state, with what the mind is accompanied, no matter what purpose, but a purpose that allows and is accompanied with such and such cetasikhas.

kamma-cetanā (karmic volition, will) appears in kāya-kamma, vacī-kamma, mano-kamma. Kusala: alobha, adosa, amoha. Akusala: lobha, dosa, moha. "cetanāham bhikkhave kammam vadāmi" So when we speak of cetana, we speak of what is the cause of kamma, action. Here maybe a list of the 52 cetasikas which could be involved in the acting mind.

"Perhaps (I guess) these are "binding" resolves rather than "unbinding" resolves, and (perhaps) these have corresponding wholesome cetanā, and perhaps these are why later ("Mahayana") schools began to emphasize the Bodhisattva way." Thats sure what "Bodhisatvas" (beings seeking for a path to awakening) think, before they change to way to their purposes in the world. But that is not much about the Buddhas teachings on wholesome and unwholesome and the path purpose.

"Is intention and purpose the same? ", if wished since it developed into a discussion which might be not the purpose of SE or the team.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +339/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Antw:Is intention and purpose the same?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2016, 07:31:22 AM »
Quote from: Johann (temp discussion, deteled)

The wholesomeness and unwholesomeness and neutrality is decided by what you would perceive when you experience or feel the result. This is the differentiation between them.

Generally aversion are painful when doing and so is when you get the result.

Generally clining based acts are pleasant when doing and also when you get the result.

Generally neutral sensations are when they are neither the above but still with the root of ignorance.

The motivation associated with the purpose decides what is the result. This also has some sensation associated with it. This can be used decide what is wholesome or not when the volition is formed as detached observer as sometimes these minds spontaneously arise. (All 121 Citta has sensation associated hence any through arising is Dukkha - Dukkha Dukkha, Viparinama Dukkha, Sankhara Dukkha - whatever the sensation.) There are 7 roots which are Ahetuka (only enlighten person experiences this), Loba, Dosa, Moha, (unwholesome) Aloba, Adosa, Amoha (wholesome). When minds rooted in the above arise the Dukkha (painful experience, pleasant experience - unsatisfactoriness of change is pleasent experience, neutral experience - fabricated existance) or sensation associated with the roots are there also and you experience unsatisfactoriness in a subtle way. The sensation can be used to identify what the volition behind a purpose when the classification of the roots are not clear cut.

Though the action is same this might be might be motivated by different intentions or purposes in which case the results and wholesomeness will differ based on the motivation and what roots are present. Hence the Dukkha when volition forms and the Dukkha when the results do manifest will also differ accordingly, but distinction is from the Dukkha you experience or type of sensations. E.g. the purpose of a surgeon cutting a person is motivated to save the life but in the case of a robber it might be greed and aversion to kill and rob, but the action is same but the purpose is different. Also you maybe donating something to a allied country motivated block import of the same from another country hence indirectly economically sabotage another country, in which case you seemingly doing good but the purpose is not. With the volition you experience the sensation associated the root and many more times amplified when you experience the fruit.

Intention, action and result decides the karmic formation. Sometimes good intention may not result in positive outcome nevertheless the though does bear fruit perhaps not as weighty as a rebirth linking Karma. If you have the intention but not follow though you still have a weak Karma. If you have intention and follow through and the desired result happens then this is a more intense Karma. Whatever the case motivation decide the feeling associated resulting experience and also see it when the volition forms. The taste of the fruit you take and plant will have the same taste and the fruits the tree would bear. Intention is the initial fruit from which you take the seed to plant.

 "Motivated by intention" could Upasaka Dharmasena explain that more. How could one be motivated by a wholesome intention, if one is certain motivated has a certain purpose? And maybe he is able to give a sample of purpose which would be equal or colored by a certain kind of intention.
   
"Generally clining based acts are pleasant when doing and also when you get the result." That means when Atma eats an ice cream he will feel good? "Generally aversion are painful when doing and so is when you get the result." That means when Atma removes a splinter he will feel experience pain?
      
Atma guesses that "motivation, intentions, purposes" are still mixed up. As tried to give definition: one is the will based on a mind setting/state (called intention) one is the objective (motivation, purpose...) tension: Condition of being held in a state between two or more forces, which are acting in opposition to each other. intention: no more opposition but go
      
"Also you maybe donating something to a allied country motivated block import of the same from another country hence indirectly economically sabotage another country, in which case you seemingly doing good but the purpose is not." Either is "good" or wholesome, since such as a wholesome action for a unwholesome purpose can not be. Ones purpose in this line is akusala and so the means and steps are akusala.
      
Let Atma "translate": Though the action (kamma) LOOKS (from outside) same this might be might be motivated by different intentions (cetana) or [for] purposes (sankappa) in which case the results (vipaka) and wholesomeness will (kusala kamma/cetana) differ based on the motivation (sankappa) and what roots are present (cetasika).
      
"The sensation can be used to identify what the volition behind a purpose when the classification of the roots are not clear cut." how could it? Kamma and vipaka is not a one by one causality. The result being observed after a deed must not at all have something to do with the kamma one assumes as it cause. When you answer Atma a question in most wholesome ways and, Atma would act with harmful and akusala reaction and you might get hurt, it has nothing to do with your answer at all, most of the time. Of cause sometimes vipaka can arise quick.

The actually problem of doing kusala and the normal way beings are act, is having vipaka in focus. And that's exactly what we need to leave since fruits we look for are all in the sphere of sensuality. So to measure kusala and akusala on its fruits would be no good advice for somebody who asks of what is wholsesome and what not. Beings look for vipaka for results but not for the reasons.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 07:36:46 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 
15 Guests, 0 Users
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 25, 2018, 08:16:25 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Talkbox

 

Marcel

Today at 02:20:08 PM
 :-* sadhu, möge es dem ehrwürdigen bhante johann schnell wieder bessergehen :-*
 

Johann

Today at 02:09:45 PM
Körper. Besser, Atma würde vor einigen Tagen mit medizin versorgt und be-iniziert. Ein paar Tage noch bis NW der Med. wohl weg ist.
 

Marcel

Today at 02:02:51 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

Today at 02:00:11 PM
Atma ist/übt am Samma-vayamieren/-mimieren. Fegen, sozusagen.
 

Marcel

Today at 01:58:03 PM
 :-* anumodana ehrwürdiger bhante johann ich werder darauf achten :-* wie geht es ihnen mit der malaria-erkankung?  :-*
 

Johann

Today at 01:52:35 PM
Na gerade auf guten Zuständen SOLLTE man, zum Zwecke der wahren Sicherheit aufbauen, sie entwickeln und festigen, Nyom Marcel.
 

Marcel

Today at 01:37:13 PM
 :-* "im moment" geht es mir gut! aber da kann ich wirklich nicht drauf bauen :-* wie ist das wohlbefinden des ehrwürdigen bhante Johann?  :-*
 

Johann

Today at 01:25:09 PM
Wie geht es Nyom Marcel?
 

Marcel

Today at 01:12:57 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann  :-*
 

Johann

Today at 01:11:36 PM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

April 22, 2018, 09:11:17 AM
Sadhu!
 

Sophorn

April 22, 2018, 08:40:14 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
May every being be happy and free from dukkha.
May many renew their vows in silas today.   :-* :-* :-*
 

Danilo

April 15, 2018, 12:43:25 AM
Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

April 15, 2018, 12:38:56 AM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Johann

April 12, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
Moritz
 

Moritz

April 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 07:19:18 PM
Hello.
 

Johann

April 10, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Nyom. (Sideboad ist stets zugeklappt... tech. Probl.) 3:00 ist auch schon guten Tag.
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Good day (night here)
_/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

April 09, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Take your time Nyom Danilo and watch the breath to stay best calm for best benefit. A lot of chances to get ride of many ols burdens.
 

Danilo

April 08, 2018, 06:24:57 PM
_/\_
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 05:54:03 PM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Marcel

April 08, 2018, 09:58:59 AM
sadhu!
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 07:35:17 AM
Sadhu!
 

Moritz

April 08, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
Good Uposatha to all. _/\_
 

Marcel

April 01, 2018, 06:17:08 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 10:11:20 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 31, 2018, 09:52:03 AM
 :-* ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 06:44:11 PM
Atma zieht sich hier nun zurück. Möge sich Vollkommenheit einstellen.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Nyom Binocular.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 04:10:58 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
Brahmane Hanspeter.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Moritz, mag sich Vollendung ergeben. (Chamreun bo)
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Chom reap sour. _/\_
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:11:33 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

March 26, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Nyom Binocular.

my person will leave for today and rests. There have been left some hard challenges (sure for many). May they be releasing taken and increase conviction.
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Gute Antwort. Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 25, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

beste wünsche zurück an erhwürdigen bhante! es ist unsicher wann ich wieder komme! upanissayapaccayena!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
Marcel.
(Heute im Nordkloster, best wünsche vom Abt dort, er fragt stets "Wann kommt er? Ich muß immer an ihn denken."
 

Johann

March 24, 2018, 10:44:34 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 24, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
 :-* heute ist uposatha!! ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen tag! mögen die devas jene bescheid geben, die kein zugang haben! :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Sadhu! Zu was immer einer Zuflucht nimmt, sich hingibt, daran erfreut, das wird/ist sein Schutz, für Bindung oder Ungebundenheit.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM
Moritz

Show 50 latest
Members
  • Total Members: 305
  • Latest: Amisaki
Stats
  • Total Posts: 14221
  • Total Topics: 2758
  • Online Today: 23
  • Online Ever: 90
  • (September 25, 2014, 05:26:29 AM)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 15
Total: 15