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Author Topic: On Monks censuring lay people - and sensible topics  (Read 1532 times)

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Online Johann

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On Monks censuring lay people - and sensible topics
« on: February 04, 2016, 07:39:45 PM »
Atma, a little more than an hour ago, visited DW and saw the topic Senior monk S. Dhammika Posts Lies about Lay Teacher , having started with some counter questions.

Well, I guess everybody, when reading it, gets confused. On one side the fact to deal with very sensitive matters in a maybe not very careful way and on the other hand a person, who - aside of what is behind all that - seems to be public executed. Atma thinks the may popcorn eating emos show the entertaining matter for people sitting in a atrium, sure that the gladiator will die anyway. Even let him run and force him to dance naked, knowing and seeing that he is obviously confused an certain deluded, caught by anger.

So Atma thought, knowing how the standard procedure will be (one should know that not much back round researches have been made, and Atma really does not know what his point actually is, so not proved Dhammikas sayings at all, but just the picture of DW and Dammikas blog), to write him an email, to try to calm him, to tell him about some facts and to invite him, to try to find orientation by consider without the need to feel hunted, his deeds and actions and what the point and solution could be.

Although "knowing" what will be the result, the fact that Atma will touch with it a hot iron  for him self and that it will be difficult to pull him back and rest this case in a moderate way, this email was send:

Quote from: Johann via email
Upasaka Brain,

Atma (my person) just read your post on DW an thought to inform Upasaka a little about facts and call him to try to be more calm and wise. For sure such is difficult if emotions have caught one and ones own pride and face is touched.

First of all Upasaka Brain needs to know that he will find no blog or forum, where he would not not censured. That means every post that would defend his person, or his stand, he makes will be deleted, if it does not fit the the blogers or forms owner view and every post he would make emotional or which actually is not good for him self, will stay. That is one fact, if he leads a hot topic and emotional topic.

The other fact is, that most public Buddhist communities are managed or influenced by people who are Jewish origin, Dhamma Wheels owner is a Jewish for example. Moderators, Teacher, Monks... general pity and press... its not easy and always leaded by preoccupations.  What does not mean that some of them would not be above such a matter of nation or race, put since you handle with worldlings, be one self maybe also a worldling, you need to understand that touching birth pride actually matters, no matter if people are Buddhist or not. And it's a sad fact today that such topic always lead to narrow views.

If you wish to make your point clear, you are welcome to use sangham.net to tell about your story. Maybe you make also a good research before and take your time, to clearly document, of what is fact, and also report your statements , having done before for comparing.

Since not really involved, its maybe also just to let you know that your general picture, now on the places where you have tried to make your point, get even more worse and blogs like dhammikas, are place wise people or people who know the Dhamma and Vinaya, know that he is not the wisest and smartest, but just a bloger living for supporting daily and popular opinions. Dhamma Wheel is strong and hardly censured, and as far as Atma knows, David the owner is somehow a fan of Dhammika, since he opposes the righteous Sangha and traditional ways. So you are really in the middle where you get burned for sure and there is no way to make it a different. Once you touch the dominate Buddhist group on internet in a way they don't like, you will be hunted everywhere. There you have only the possibility to flow with the stream, or be very very patient and restrainedly

Upasaka should also know that Atma would have been also called to be a racist, but if you know your self, you are not to be burdened by peoples accuses and people who know one, also know if something is even totally the opposite.

Also do not forget, that most, if not all, blogging monks are extreme worldings and mostly fare away from right view and to keep Vinaya, so you will not easy get any Sangha as support, since most of them are far from any influence of any health community of monks. So you mostly argue with them like with normal people and normal people are not shy to damage one where ever they can.

If you decide to write and discuss this matter on a neutral and uncensored place, as told you are free to do so. Just one thing, you need to know and to prove. Since this server is in Germany, you should know that any glorification of Nazi, Hitler an so on, are very serious issues and one can even be sentence with hard punishments, not to speak that it is generally a taboo and very sensitive matter. So things that go against the law, need to be deleted. Atma does not think Upasaka would do such, but if he had done such, than he should be careful and step out of this case in a proper way.

So much, Atma thought to offer you, if Upasaka likes to talk on this matter on a not precolored level and makes his point clear without feeling hunted all the time, as told, it would not happen to be censured or that you need to express in a hurry.

You may use the forum  Critical questions & rebukes

Metta & Mudita
and don't forget the breath, it makes many things easier quickly

Samana Johann

Some minutes later the post of some actions and public reports about Mr. Ruhe appeared on DW.

Atma thought, well that is actually a really hard case. So far.

But some other minutes later, a matter accrued that makes me actually more worry, a obiviously public execution of a lay person (how confused he might be), posted by the politic and day opinion reporter Bhikkhu Gavesako, straight into the arena, as the gladiator war already out of any power:

   
Quote from: Brian Ruhe
The monks in my tradition at forestsangha.org who have known me well for 15 years have remained silent because they are wise monks. They know if they came out and criticized my statements about Jews and Hitler, then I could respond with the whole train of evidence that we know so well. That would put me on the side of truth so wise monks do not make this mistake.


Nothing could be further from the truth and what actually happened. This is a copy of the message that was sent to Brian Ruhe from Birken Forest Monastery in Canada:

 
Quote
   Many people have written to us, upset and shocked by the political views which you are expressing over the internet and in your various teaching activities. As a result of this, both Birken and Ajahn Sona's reputation have suffered greatly. We have received many emails from concerned Dhamma friends and this has become a great burden for the monastery. While we cannot make you stop your unskillful actions, we request that you now disassociate yourself completely with the monastery.
    Ajahn Sona has made it very clear that he would like you to remove ALL references to Ajahn Sona, Birken Forest Monastery and the Thai Forest Tradition from your website (www.theravada.ca ), your YouTube Channels and any other public sites. This also means you must remove the remaining 5 Ajahn Sona videos from your YouTube channel, the RSS feed to Birken's website, any mention of Ajahn Sona in your bio / YouTube channel, etc.
    Please understand that because of your actions, you are no longer affiliated with this monastery, so you should not talk to people about Birken or its resident community at all - not even to refer them to come here for a visit, or to forward our mailing list emails. It should be made very clear that your views do not in any way represent the views of this tradition or the teachings of the Buddha. Other Ajahns in this tradition have also expressed concern - please remove any reference to other monks from the Thai Forest Tradition as well.

That says it quite clearly and it is important that everybody gets to read this.

That is not only shocking for this case in detail, but shows also what was ever told by Atma, that this certain Buddhist communities, while being not shy of censuring, obviously have a well organized internal communication system, and this is not that of a meeting in a Vihara in a formal way, but like worldly interest groups.

While the case of Mr. Ruhe is certain difficult to advocate in public, it really really would not need such ways, like done here.

There is of cause no information when this mail to Mr. Ruhe was send, and also not information of who actually send it. The question is difficult, since many or most Monasteries are simply association of Monastics and Lay people running it together, like a company, which must be not the case here of cause, but seems like that. So not clear if that come direct form the Sangha, or form a lay person, who might worry about his reputation.

If the case is given, that such declaration come right from monks (Atma will not talk much about Dhammika, because he has his clear picture, and also not much about Bhikkhu Gavesako, who pulls the threads in the background obliviously never having the feeling to take any critic earnest) that we might have a clear picture of how (there is no other word) dangerous this group had become and the fact, that it does not even be shy to execute a lay person, by having fear to lose reputation (! what actually means donations) they also force him to do things, not even on a level "if you could do that and that, we can do that and that" (trade) but by simply wanting it to be taken, give public censure, like it they would be judges passing a public judgement.

Such statements form the good ones, the Buddhist, making racistic expression against what they think that they are more racists like them, like "Please move along.", really show well that they can not be threaded even as normal adults with a little emotional intelligence.

Atma will not even touch the narrow of it, given that the same people say that downloading and copy on intent is no fault, now obviously faced with what they call confusion to think there is an owner ship on such, wanting even links removed. Also the case of how much things called Dhamma Dana are really given without stings, is more then visible: "As long as it gives us reputation, it can be taken for free"

Ven. Bhante Piyadhammo gave a little more objective comment, how the situation is on Dhammikas blog:

I don't know Ruhe but that forest monks are shunning wordly concerns is wishful thinking. A large number of senior monks read news papers, magazines or keep up with events online. Also I know a number of senior monks who have been enarmoured with conspiracy theories and very famous monks are widely know to have held extreme and controversial political views.
This is not to defend Ruhe but rather a correction in the service of truth and perhaps an appeal to everybody to stay away from this kind of entanglement. It's just really easy to end up in a wrong or absurd camp when you start down that road, whether you remain mainstream or go alternative routes...

Its not so, that not all things have been clear without talking direct about it, but the fact, that there is even no more shame to public execute people, is a dimension that should be considered wisely.

Barely they would ever react to any critic, hide and walk around in the internet, collecting, and then when a hunt or a defend seems to be beneficial, then they beat. That is really not even the fairness and nobility of worriers, not to speak of a nobility that can be compared to the noble Sangha and its given tradition.

They act, at large, simply just for particular community benefits in dimensions of worldly gain and will no where found to discuss on a level of Dhamma and Vinaya, even aside of the need to make such things simply a way of public indirect communication out of personal castles.

That is really "sad", really sad, because those are all results of Sg13 and using lay peoples opinions to gain influence and power, reputation. Addressing people pleasant, who are from benefit and censuring each and every point that could damage their opinions and motives.

Sure, such possessed cases like Mr. Ruhes are difficult to use at large to point the actually matter out. But it is obvious that, who ever wrote this letter, has lost the point and the situation where he belongs, that is not the behavior of a group of noble beggars nor that of a group of people who see danger in Samsara, but of a group that seems to be either drunken or terrible in fear, to act like a King.

Next week, who will be censured? A Christian person, who has not the view? A criminal, who post teachings? The president?

Those are obvious means of totalitarian and confiscated regimes, and such in no way a matter of race or nation, but of people who have developed certain wrong views and live in improper dependency of lay people which - when we think about the matter - starts to associate with lay teachers who make a Dhamma their livelihood, approving the selling of it, and when this relation is no more a beneficial joy(n) adventure, the contract has to end.

Things really have reasons and they seldom need to be searched out side of one self.

Atma is really not happy of what is made out of the heritage of the Buddha and his already gone noble disciples. "All" you find are monks who live on the reputation of their teachers, fight it and amass on it for the sake of fame, killing what ever could damage it.

In trust that those who could do some good and keep people form making unskillful action, those who are really fathers of this Noble Sangha, do have some possibilities left and maybe try to correct this image, which of course will be applauded by the mass, but really draws a picture critical and wise people would just say, just another interest group with its short benefits and much danger behind.

Also Atma likes to remark, that there is not a little support of Mr. Ruhes views, at least they are even not known, read, seen... aside of this two blogs, which give of cause the impression that he has extreme views, but if such views would be between other states and other historical events, nobody would really care about it.

Or did the Buddha, when addressed by a carrier of the king, to find out if this or that state is ripe to be occupied and destroy, just banned him, saying because he has such views and should not look like being associated with him? He had other ways, even to use such places to teach Dhamma and make thinks calm.

But he then used his teachings also in direction of the Sangha, like we can read:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

""The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they assemble frequently and in large numbers; meet and disperse peacefully and attend to the affairs of the Sangha in concord; so long as they appoint no new rules, and do not abolish the existing ones, but proceed in accordance with the code of training (Vinaya) laid down; so long as they show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards the elder bhikkhus, those of long standing, long gone forth, the fathers and leaders of the Sangha, and think it worthwhile to listen to them; so long as they do not come under the power of the craving that leads to fresh becoming; so long as they cherish the forest depths for their dwellings; so long as they establish themselves in mindfulness, so that virtuous brethren of the Order who have not come yet might do so, and those already come might live in peace; so long, bhikkhus, as these seven conditions leading to welfare endure among the bhikkhus and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline.

followed by many additional advices for their welfare and there is no, not one, that says, if the reputation of an associated lay person is not good for you (note that such a association which could cause such it self is already a fault), you should public execute him and censure him.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they do not delight in, are not pleased with, and are not fond of activities, talk, sleep, and company; so long as they do not harbor, do not come under the spell of evil desires; have no bad friends, associates, or companions; and so long as they do not stop halfway on account of some trifling achievement. So long, bhikkhus, as these seven conditions leading to welfare endure among the bhikkhus and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline.

And also this "have" does not say here, that the Sangha should go in between such national things, or how would one explain the teachings after this approach:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Once the Blessed One dwelt at Rajagaha, on the hill called Vultures' Peak. At that time the king of Magadha, Ajatasattu, son of the Videhi queen, desired to wage war against the Vajjis. He spoke in this fashion: "These Vajjis, powerful and glorious as they are, I shall annihilate them, I shall make them perish, I shall utterly destroy them."

So rather to send a public message to discredit the Kings "that is not the Buddhas view. Make him silent." he talked about simply facts, or better cause and effect. And why could the Buddha do so, because he was with no of the part in a improper association.

And that is the reason of aversion, desire. Love and benefit, turns into hate and disadvantage.

Atma hopes that such is visible and that the honorable members of the Sangha, will settle and correct of what they can settle and correct in their sphere, not to win the opinion of the fellows or to secure other worldly interests but to draw the whole picture of the Buddhas message and act like noble ones and not like treated business man. 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they attend on each other with loving-kindness in deed, word, and thought, both openly and in private; so long as in respect of what they receive as due offerings, even the contents of their alms bowls, they do not make use of them without sharing them with virtuous members of the community; so long as, in company with their brethren, they train themselves, openly and in private, in the rules of conduct, which are complete and perfect, spotless and pure, liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by mundane concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind; and in company with their brethren, preserve, openly and in private, the insight that is noble and liberating, and leads one who acts upon it to the utter destruction of suffering. So long, bhikkhus, as these six conditions leading to welfare endure among the bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline.

[Attached copy of the htmls of the pages, DW and Dhammika blog, short before writing this post]
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 08:19:03 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Antw:On Monks censuring lay people - and sensible topics
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2016, 11:03:43 AM »
Quote from: via email
Subject:    cirtical topic in regard of lay people
Date:    Mon, 8 Feb 2016 17:00:44 +0700
From:    Samana Johann <johann.brucker@sangham.net>
To: meditate@birken.ca


(hopefully) Venerable Sangha of Birken Monastery,
Bhikkhu Sona,

Samanera came across the tragical topic of Mr. Brain Ruhe on Dhamma Wheel  and since it is so against Dhamma Vinaya and knowing that sadly the members of the Sangha play there "Games" either behind the curtain or in public using the public as a tool, Samanera opened a cirtical topic in sangham.net in this regard. Pardon for the later message, but Samanera had no internet for some days.

It might be that the Sirs are not aware, but you actually punish and have public executed a layperson of what the Buddha gave you in no way and with reason, no tool to do such.

There would be nothing wrong to have a hard discussion with a person, of what ever kind, an may him make lose his point or show others that such is not right. There is also nothing wrong, if would would have had the compassion to invite him and to talk directly with him, out of compassion and there would be also nothing wrong, if you simply would have declared that you do not take side with his maybe extreme position (my person did not read or watch any of his spreading yet).

But to public destroy a person in such ways, which are not even on the level of Dhamma, to order him things and to try to take things form him, which are at least given, is hard against any possibilities you would have been given by the Buddha, not to say that they are even not done out of compassion but simply out of desire, you act because, like you have told, on fear of reputation.

Not so much in regard of Upasaka Brain Ruhe, but in regard of your self and the real reputation of the Sangha, who is not an enterprise which uses its power but virtues of the Dhamma to stand above things, Samana sees it as a duty to urge you to get as fast as possible a reconciliation with this particular Layperson which in now way (except it had not the reason that the Ven. Sirs transgressed Sg13 that such could be or look like this) is in direct affiliation any way if you are not used to wrong livelihood and the color that you paint that there are lay people either afflicted or not afflicted to your or even the Sangha is even more worse.

So please see this first, as a simply act of compassion, second of no personal interests, third as a very need for your self and the possibility to grow in Dhamma and Vinaya and fourth as 100 time better change to make something for the reputation of the Sangha, not one yours, not only as a heritage of Venerable late Teacher Ajahn Chah but the Sangha of the Buddha, his rightly following disciples.

If the Sirs have doubt in regard of the of course short declaration and invitation here, Samana will not miss to give any necessary time to make it more understandable and he also recommends you to seek for knowledgeable Bhikkhus outside of your affliction since you even make such a topic to repair this since it is written even in the Name of the whole Ajahn Chah heritage and if it is the matter, that this branch takes 1. political and day opinion positions, 2. is afflicted to lay people in large and 3. does not fear to harm lay people and cause them not only material lose (not to speak that you use uninvited 3. energy to share that what you like to confiscate now) it is clear of what the out come of such is, if not repaired quickly. Of course it will not affect any worldly growing of your branches, the opposite will happen, that is how strategical enterprises work to grow.

So if you ask my person a public pardon in regard of Mr. Brain form your Sangha and also (but not so important, since most would not take him as real member of the Sangha) Dhammika, would be more then necessary to touch the proper side. And after that, after a good while of censuring your self, it would be good to counter such maybe extreme ideas on a level of Dhamma and rather to play politic and low opinion games, teach the Dhamma so that the matter is understood on a position that takes not side on such. You may ask even an Venerable Sir who would be really skilled in such.

With really much concernment, metta and a punch of karuna,
may you please come to mind and correct of what can be corrected.

metta

Samana Johann
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 11:14:36 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Antw:On Monks censuring lay people - and sensible topics
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2016, 11:21:05 AM »
The topic, as "prophesied" has already be censured on DW... and for sure Mr. Ruhe already be banned, not to ask how may post have been censured there... (note that the above attached html is not the last by moderators closed one copy of the topic) its really terrible what those "kings" are doing in this world for the Damage of Dhamma. Nothing but politics for gain and again and this in a public really obvious afflict with certain monks. That is not Dhamma, not Vinaya and not the way the relation between lay people and monastic should be, they are not designed as a join-adventure for gain.

Dhammikas blog looks like this:

Tara said...
    This comment has been removed by the author.
    February 3, 2016 at 11:06 PM
Srk Mlr said...
    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
    February 3, 2016 at 11:08 PM
Greengirl said...
    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
    February 3, 2016 at 11:23 PM
Cornelius Gal said...
    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
    February 4, 2016 at 6:36 AM
Mark Bartlog said...
    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
    February 4, 2016 at 9:59 AM
Kenneth said...
    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
    February 4, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Shravasti Dhammika said...
    This comment has been removed by the author.
    February 4, 2016 at 1:07 PM
Shravasti Dhammika said...

    Thank you all who have left comments, whether supportive or not. However, no more comments on this subject will be allowed.
    February 5, 2016 at 12:16 AM

Not only that those weak people criticize in such ways and then not letting even the blamed comment, they actually act like dictator in "ariya" (out of birth or taken/given position) regimes at the same time, letting people believe that they embody the Ariyans of the Buddha, people of virtue and discernment, able able to judge even if just their own defilements.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 11:31:18 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Johann

March 27, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Nyom Binocular.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 04:10:58 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
Brahmane Hanspeter.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Moritz, mag sich Vollendung ergeben. (Chamreun bo)
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Chom reap sour. _/\_
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:11:33 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

March 26, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Nyom Binocular.

my person will leave for today and rests. There have been left some hard challenges (sure for many). May they be releasing taken and increase conviction.
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Gute Antwort. Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 25, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

beste wünsche zurück an erhwürdigen bhante! es ist unsicher wann ich wieder komme! upanissayapaccayena!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
Marcel.
(Heute im Nordkloster, best wünsche vom Abt dort, er fragt stets "Wann kommt er? Ich muß immer an ihn denken."
 

Johann

March 24, 2018, 10:44:34 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 24, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
 :-* heute ist uposatha!! ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen tag! mögen die devas jene bescheid geben, die kein zugang haben! :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Sadhu! Zu was immer einer Zuflucht nimmt, sich hingibt, daran erfreut, das wird/ist sein Schutz, für Bindung oder Ungebundenheit.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM
Moritz
 

Administration

March 21, 2018, 03:42:55 PM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 21, 2018, 03:32:47 PM
 :-* mögen sie alle noch in diesem leben das herz von avijja befreien!!! :-*
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
One leading to peaks pointing downward so that aging, sickness and death can be seen, know him/her as a sage, a giver of release.
 

Johann

March 18, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
One leading people to papanca, promoting rejoicing in objectification as the heart wood, increases to fields of corpse in the world.

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