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Author Topic: Leading Australian (Monks) approve killing  (Read 1268 times)

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Online Johann

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Leading Australian (Monks) approve killing
« on: March 16, 2016, 01:00:09 PM »

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Karma Yeshe Rabgye, helps you to kill your mammy and daddy! 100% Compassionated! ,  hier zu einem neuen eröffnen. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur Herkunft, sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!

The new topic here is made from one or more post from there Karma Yeshe Rabgye, helps you to kill your mammy and daddy! 100% Compassionated! . For eventual additionally information to this new Topic, please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!

[Original post:]

Buddhist Response to Euthanasia & Abortion by Ajahn Brahm

Responses by commenters:

As Buddhists we do have an

As Buddhists we do have an easy and straight forward answer to Euthanasia. tt is a capital NO.

- Euthanasia is a coined up word for 'killing oneself' nothing different from a more civilised word 'suicide' and according to the laws of the land if one tries to commit suicideis a punishable act of crime.

- one who wants to kill oneself is full of hatred towards oneself and anybody who helps is also not a compassionate person or persons. Doing everythings possible to make the person comfortable is what a Buddhist would d,o NOT aiding and abetting killing!.One of the factors of one's viscisitudes of life[ 8 of them] is due to one's own kamma. If one kills oneself the driving force at that time being hatred doesn't definitely put an end to one's 'suffering.

- the one who wants to kill oneself and the ones who help such a one are all breaking the 1st Precept.- 'paanaati paata' and if the ones who help happen to be the children of the person who wants to kill oneself then they are committing the most grievous of bad kamma namely ' aanantariya paapakamma' which is killing a mother or father.

- the countries where it is legal, commit all kinds of atrocious crimes against the sick and the feeble and the elderly.


 There was an article on this in Shambhala Sun a few months back.   The author added some troubles that could come up if we euthanize as a practise.  First, an already burdened medical system may see euthanasia as a convenient way to free up beds.  While I believe most doctors to have taken the Hippocratic oath and vow to do whatever possible to save lives, utilitarianism may win out in some cases.  Second, who gets to decide?  If family members who have power of attorney have less than noble intentions and want to 'get rid' of ailing members of the family who may be seen as a burden, well, ... you see the point. 

Life is suffering.  I hope that I have the courage to face the incredible suffering that may come in the form of terminal illness.  I believe that it would be a great test to our equanimity, and I am so thankful for my practice to help me through what may come.  I don't mean to sound callous ... I do wish those suffering to have their burden lifted.  This is a very contentious issue!   Gives us lots to think about. 

Euthanasia bill and Ajahn Brahm's response

Venerable Ajahn Brahmavamso has written to MPs urging them to support the euthanasia bill.

While the Ajahn is entitled to his opinion, as we all are, and is certainly motivated by compassion, I respectfully submit that this is not in line with the Buddha's teachings.

The Lord Buddha spoke for 55 years about suffering and means to end suffering without ever recommending euthanasia.

The first precept for all Buddhists is to refrain from killing. Unlike the biblical first commandment, this one is consistently and unconditionally supported throughout the scriptures.

In the scriptures, we are told that a monk saw a man about to be executed and urged the executioner to make sure the death was swift and painless. The Buddha admonished him and made it a very serious offence for a monk to ever condone killing.

The only time the Buddha accepted a request for permission to commit suicide was when it came from an Arahant, and he allowed it because the monk had completed the holy life.

In short, I think promoting euthanasia clearly contradicts the position the Lord Buddha took.

A Sadhu! for those who are upright and having opposed the actions of foolishness in the name of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.

Abortion is broadly and Euthanasia totally legal in Australia! And this is obliviously supported of those who call themselves and monks.

"How many abortions are there in Australia? A discussion of abortion statistics, their limitations, and options for improved statistical collection...in 2004 that 100,000 women choose to end their pregnancy annually."

Ātma does not need to mention those potential transgression and that those Bhikkhus are no more to be seen as part of the Sangha.

Even if one would vote as a citizen and approve any kind of killing, one has a share of all the approved following kamma done my action. Its not needed to tell about the harm and suffering that is caused by monks in even giving political approve and leading many to do cardinal downfall deeds.

That is why it is said, that Bhikkhus who teach things which are not Dhamma causing so many demerit in the world.

Avoid them, here once again. That is a group that is poisoning the whole Sasana and the welfare in the world and they are easy to be seen, mentioned in any other destructive cases here and on may places.

Fools are popular, that is a cause of natural law in Samsara. Aviod them like poison, that is all Ātma can repeat on and on.

This group lists "monks" your have possible "learned" the most, starting from Bhikkhu Bodhi, Brahm, Brahmali, Dhammika, Yuttodhammo...

Ātma does not like to count how many being transgressed basic precepts and there advice and how much misery and pain they have brought into this world.

You should know people who once followed in trust of such fools, having done in good faith, following their foolish teachings, deeds they really really suffer a long time, some even are not able to walk on.

You are blessed to meet the good Dhamma, so do anything to maintain it and keep it alive.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 02:10:18 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Re: Leading Australian (Monks) approve killing
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 02:08:40 PM »

Reading through this answers, Ātman has no other possibility to totally disagree and disprove any even small notion of even suggesting people to take life or approve it.

Those monks, like mentioned in some quotes (look at the big suffering and harm they have actually brought over Australia) have already done a downfall transgression and are no more considered as afflicted this the Sangha, are no more Bhikkhus. When you take the case of political involvement of approving certain kinds of killing. Those action make a full offense.

   Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying): "My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

    Ignorance of these rules does not exempt an offender from the penalty, which is why the Buddha ordered that they be taught to each new bhikkhu as soon as possible after ordination (Mv.I.78.2-5). Because the rules cover a number of cases that are legal in present-day society (e.g., recommending abortion, proving to oneself how supple one has become through yoga by inserting one's penis in one's mouth) or that are common practice among people who see nothing wrong with flirting with the edges of the law (e.g., hiding an article subject to customs duties when entering a country), it is especially important to inform each new bhikkhu of the rules' full implications from the very start.

    If a bhikkhu suspects that he has committed a pārājika, he should immediately inform a senior bhikkhu well versed in the rules. BMC1

The questioner would find plenty of cases in the Vinaya how abortion was seen and judged by the Buddha, even if Monks have only approved or having been involved. You can count those who are ignorant of that, or do laypeople a favor in making the issue relative, as no Monks at all. They are actually dangerous.

Precepts are not a little relative. Weather doing by one self, telling others to take and destroy life or to approve it, is a cardinal miss deed with long time effects and one does not need to think about this poor people who seek advises for people who mislead in the name of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. They suffer hell later on.

So even if one would vote as a citizens in approving any kind of killing, that one who votes takes a direct share of all the bodily kamma that is made, and the dimension is not calculate able.

There is no gray in the whole path of the Dhamma, and any teacher who starts with such suggestions, know him as an enemy and avoid him, not to speak of those who encourage and give reason to transgress basic precepts.

The big disaster and effects of this "popular" monks can be only overseen by those who are really lost.

"How many abortions are there in Australia? A discussion of abortion statistics, their limitations, and options for improved statistical collection...in 2004 that 100,000 women choose to end their pregnancy annually."

Can you image the effects of teaching something what is not Dhamma, by this actually killers? Avoid them!

A layperson, out of what ever reason, who becomes aware, should not wait to confess his/here misdeed (having done by one self, having told one to do, or approved such actions that leaded to destruction live. Its good to take advises for serious monks and learn from them. How ever, what is done can no more be changed and the fruits will ripe sooner or later as long in Samsara. So one should resolve to never transgress it again and eager walk on and work for his liberation in doing all kind of meritorious deeds.

**...becomes sentient** (as mentioned in the Question)
Is a Mahayana development, which most significant dominates especially such new age approaches like New Karmapa. Such teaching are made to justify not only wrong livelihood but also killing in the name of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and can be possible easy accept by many people. How ever, the Buddha never came up to make the distinction between life or not dependent on such and its obvious that such is open to every kind of abuse and misinterpretation. Life, what ever breath, what ever has intent of any kind of existence. In this sphere there are even realms without feeling. And on that level one could even kill others when in Jhana, would they? Or a Buddha, Arahat... not to speak of deliberately killing all the time rationalizing in such ways. Each holocaust is even leaded by such implements. Avoid people who even mention "sentient being" as discrimination. Every being, what ever kind of existence it has, is worthy to be as good as possible protected in that what no being loves more: life.  Sentient being, killing in the name of live, lack of virtue and rationalizations to justify transgressions of basic precepts is the very sign for A-Dhamma and teachers who lead many, not only them selves into misery and pain for long time. Avoid them!


This article says that life begins when citta arises, and only when the embryo-fetus first shows sensitivity to pleasure and pain (vedana) and first shows will (such as by a purposeful shrinking away from a painful stimulus) has consciousness and nāma-rūpa first manifested and the new human life started. ... I suppose that happens some time (many weeks) after conception. I guess you're saying you disagree with that, can you explain why (i.e. where and what is the mistake in that explanation)? – ChrisW♦ 1 hour ago
You suppose much, and you would take any advise of fools who give you way to behavior aside of moral.Suppose, assume... and that you kill, and approve killing. Those are fools Mr. Chris. Not knowing anything but assume and fall not only by themselves into hell. You can use this article to clean, if there is no other paper left. That is all what it is of use. Or do you know when others feel pleasure and pain. Aside that the definition of live pana is not even that. Even a egg of small animal, if destroying it willingly is a kill. – Samana Johann 49 mins ago 
Its natural that this "monks" will try to do anything that would be supporting that they are actually no more Bhikkhus at all and far away form Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. Of course they can manipulate fools. Do you like to support them to lead people and other beings into much harm, by telling that "oh no, this little killing or monk approved..." Think twice and even more often? Those are not only corrupter of families on a normal level. Those are simply killers. – Samana Johann 44 mins ago 
Its really needed that you start to understand how much bad kamma many of you had produced here over the time, by suggestion, approving..., and its is more than urged that you start to to try to cover all your pitfalls you have made here, since people are so naive and take your advice for full. You are 100% responsible for all misdeeds which are leaded by those action and you can do what ever you like, it will follow you. So hurry up. That something you do for your own wel-being and in that way you help countless. Mr Chris. It will take you maybe a year or two, to fill up all this pitfalls. – Samana Johann 33 mins ago 
The sooner you confess and start, the sooner you would be able to leave and start the way in Dhamma with also positive effects. Otherwise you will be not only imprisoned here, but haunted a life time, any many coming existences. – Samana Johann 30 mins ago 
I was asking whether you would explain what you find wrong/mistaken in Ajahn Brahm's position (which another answer referenced and which you criticized). Taking life (killing) assumes there is life, so isn't "when does life begin?" relevant to the question? – ChrisW♦ 18 mins ago
No, it's not different of people having told some times ago and even to day that animals have no feeling, some even told such of certain human races. Do you like to play that game? Stop this foolish thinking for your own benefit immediately! How much must one try to put you on the right way? When there is even a little doubt, that there is actually life, it requires shameless ignorance to act. Start to be honest to your self rather to try to rationalize misdeeds. Ajahn Brahm is a fool and full of worldly purposes and desire of gain. Think about how much independent he is. – Samana Johann 5 mins ago   edit 
He actually has so many transgressions made and would lose all his worldly things once he would confess them. Do you think that he would be able to? So what else as to further put reasons for the righteousness of his transgression into the world? Don't assume that there are many Monks who actually of the gems as their only refuge. – Samana Johann 2 mins ago   edit

« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 02:26:45 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Antw:Leading Australian (Monks) approve killing
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2016, 07:19:30 AM »
As a potentional killer (everybody not at least a streamentere yet), better one how make people think that taking others life and existence in certain cases is fine and possible to justify, Pesala tries to defend a questions relevance on the first place, so to get it disapear soon: Do bhikkhus who justify abortion risk becoming parajika?

To the questionit self: "Not only risking, he does. Wheather he accepts or not. He is risking to be known as someone having done, when he makes such justifications of killing and their suggesting even public." So when someone likes to live with a parajika without being known as someone who actually did, he should not suggestcsuch in public, since if there is a single persons reasoning "a monk told so..." and a being actually came to death, there is no way to help him. Thibking on the case of traps (internet, interviews...) where he suggeset such killing, he should, when he is wise but all effort to cover this traps, correct and delete such terrible views and harming many be missinterpreting yhe Buddha.

So that should answer the Question indirectly as well. One who made a terrible wrong statement in books, internet, public... has really a hard time his whole life, to do not face that his delusion actually brought him to a fullfilled transgression.

Its good when you help out this potencial parajika offender that there transgression does not come to the also needed death! Actually an act of compassion for the fool in action an many which destiny of heaven as minimum result.

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Antw:Leading Australian (Monks) approve killing
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2016, 08:15:11 AM »
Some general errors in Pesalas try here or view (dont ask why still giving it a try):

Five factors must be fulfilled for an offence of defeat:-
Object: a human being, which according to the Vibhaṅga includes human fetuses as well, counting from the time consciousness first arises in the womb immediately after conception up to the time of death.
Intention: knowingly, consciously, deliberately, and purposefully wanting to cause that person’s death. “Knowingly” also includes the factor of:
Perception: perceiving the person as a living being.
Effort: whatever one does with the purpose of causing that person to die.
Result: The person dies as the result of one’s act.

There is no offence if not knowing that a living being was there — e.g., placing a heavy load on a pile of cloth without realising that a person was lying underneath it.
Two errors or suggestions to errors: "and", and commas should be replaced with "or", carelessness is not helping in the case of killing out of carelessness. So a flight pilot letting the bomb go down, does not find escape by arguing, i hoped there will nobody die. Which also points out the secound, that there are often lesser rules broken which lead to heavier till the parajika. There are roles like for fire (controlled is allowed) as well as to look underneath certain things first.

"Even a bhikkhu who falls into an offence of defeat is not "kicked out" of the Sangha, until and unless he acknowledges his offence, then he automatically ceases to be a bhikkhu. No kicking is required."
Also this can be missunderstood. Of course one can still where a robe and parcitipate in a certain sangha but if actually known, even he does not accept that he is an offender, in that case he needs to be kicked out and since it is a case that matters for the world and a big harm of the sangha as a whole, by not disrobing good also informed to lay people and of cause such as any sign of respect should not be given.
Aside of that, wheather he knows, accepts, other do or how ever, from the moment of breaking he/she does not count as bhikkhu/bhikkuni any more.

Should any bhikkhu — ..., he is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

... is the nature of parajika, no transaction or anything needed actually. Of cause its good to seek for a Vinaya specialist to get ones deed proved in detail., if a thought of, it could be, arises.

If one thinks thats all a matter of Aghata Sutta: Hatred , he/she should understand the last sentence an just in the case of dear and undear, upekkha is fine. If actually a possibility, one has to act in accordiance to his possibilities and does not give it the stamp "another mans business", especially when one is a fellow in the Sangha of the Blessed One.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 08:25:57 AM by Johann »
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April 15, 2018, 12:43:25 AM
Bhante _/\_


April 15, 2018, 12:38:56 AM
Nyom Danilo.


April 12, 2018, 10:05:15 AM


April 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_


April 10, 2018, 07:19:18 PM


April 10, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Nyom. (Sideboad ist stets zugeklappt... tech. Probl.) 3:00 ist auch schon guten Tag.


April 10, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Good day (night here)


April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_


April 09, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Take your time Nyom Danilo and watch the breath to stay best calm for best benefit. A lot of chances to get ride of many ols burdens.


April 08, 2018, 06:24:57 PM


April 08, 2018, 05:54:03 PM
Nyom Danilo.


April 08, 2018, 09:58:59 AM


April 08, 2018, 07:35:17 AM


April 08, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
Good Uposatha to all. _/\_


April 01, 2018, 06:17:08 AM
 :-* :-* :-*


March 31, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
Nyom Jens.


March 31, 2018, 10:11:20 AM


March 31, 2018, 09:52:03 AM
 :-* ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*


March 27, 2018, 06:44:11 PM
Atma zieht sich hier nun zurück. Möge sich Vollkommenheit einstellen.


March 27, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Nyom Binocular.


March 27, 2018, 04:10:58 PM
Nyom Jens.


March 27, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
Brahmane Hanspeter.


March 27, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Moritz, mag sich Vollendung ergeben. (Chamreun bo)


March 27, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Chom reap sour. _/\_


March 27, 2018, 12:11:33 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_


March 26, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Nyom Binocular.

my person will leave for today and rests. There have been left some hard challenges (sure for many). May they be releasing taken and increase conviction.


March 25, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Gute Antwort. Sadhu!


March 25, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

beste wünsche zurück an erhwürdigen bhante! es ist unsicher wann ich wieder komme! upanissayapaccayena!  :-* :-* :-*


March 25, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
(Heute im Nordkloster, best wünsche vom Abt dort, er fragt stets "Wann kommt er? Ich muß immer an ihn denken."


March 24, 2018, 10:44:34 AM


March 24, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
 :-* heute ist uposatha!! ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen tag! mögen die devas jene bescheid geben, die kein zugang haben! :-*


March 23, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Sadhu! Zu was immer einer Zuflucht nimmt, sich hingibt, daran erfreut, das wird/ist sein Schutz, für Bindung oder Ungebundenheit.


March 23, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*


March 23, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)


March 23, 2018, 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.


March 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*


March 23, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?


March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM


March 21, 2018, 03:42:55 PM


March 21, 2018, 03:32:47 PM
 :-* mögen sie alle noch in diesem leben das herz von avijja befreien!!! :-*


March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.


March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.


March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.


March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.


March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".


March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_


March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori


March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_


March 19, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
One leading to peaks pointing downward so that aging, sickness and death can be seen, know him/her as a sage, a giver of release.


March 18, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
One leading people to papanca, promoting rejoicing in objectification as the heart wood, increases to fields of corpse in the world.

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