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Author Topic: Abotion - Abtreibung  (Read 714 times)

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Online Johann

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Abotion - Abtreibung
« on: December 11, 2016, 05:52:09 AM »
Atma is very happy that this topic is on the run and the missleading opinions of even monks who do people just a flavor to maintain a livelihood or do politics for the sake of gaining is here againrightly blamed: A. Brahm's When Does Human Life Begin..?

Its for the sake of suffering of many and for a drive into low realms to give only a little into kiling beings or to justify that some are not living beings, like people in Europ did for a long time in regard of animals generall or even certakn kind of humans. Its good to do not asdociate with people eho try to justify the breaking of basic moral conducts and silas.

Neverteless, so that one does not blame one self or others incorrect, the first answer of binoclar schould be reflected really honest. If it is a action of based on "notsure and could be" its a matter of pamada and carelessness does how ever not count.

* Johann in addition: Atma thought he had made a topic about one year ago, could have been on stakeexchange just heavy rebukes as well, but can not find for now. If someone remembers, it would be good to bring rthis together.

Ajahn Mun "A heart released" should not be seen as simply conventional Abhidhamma, but more as a kind of transcentent approach. Would be silly, like always, to nail high teachings down on conventions, capable for low levels of concentration.

Related earlier topics here:

Leading Australian (Monks) approve killing
[Q&A] Does Buddhism explain the past karma, and rebirth, of a short-lived fetus?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 06:35:55 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Antw:Abortion - Abtreibung
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2016, 06:12:46 AM »
Found it (but browser does not allow rich text edit, so its not nice to view and without links, maybe someone can copy and insert while editor on.
Are Buddhists against abortion?

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While other religions seem to have a definition position on abortion I've never come across the Buddhist view on this. From a naive perspective I would imagine that Buddhists would be prolife rather then prochoice - the abstain from killing precept seems to be the relevant one. But I would imagine it would also depend on when Buddhist believe that life begins or becomes sentient.

Is there any pointers to the ethics of abortion in the scriptures (pali canon, mahayana etc..) or perhaps guidance/opinions from more contemporary teachers. I feel that the real position could be quite nuanced.

Many thanks for any/all thoughts

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asked Jun 25 '14 at 12:04

Crab Bucket
A better question would be "Does abortion causes bad Karma?". – Sankha Kulathantille Jun 25 '14 at 14:36
It would be the same as convincing oneself: "If the tomorrow World exists no human, beings and other livelihood, there would never be "good" or "bad" Karma. And I could do whatever I wished, with or without 'compassion'" – Unheilig Jun 25 '14 at 22:10
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6 Answers
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This is one of those questions that is complicated by that in the United States the conversation around abortion looks and feels very different than it does from other countries in the world. It is also made complex by the interaction of the ideology and the "situation on the ground," where things are usually quite complicated.

To quote Karma Lekshe Tsomo's excellent article Prolife, Prochoice: Buddhism and Reproductive Ethics:

In Buddhism, a primary guiding principle for ethical decision-making is the relief of suffering. It is clear that both abortion and restrictive abortion laws can cause great suffering for both mother and fetus. […]

In the end, most Buddhists recognize the incongruity that exists between ethical theory and actual practice and, while they do not condone the taking of life, do advocate understanding and compassion toward all living beings, a lovingkindness that is nonjudgmental and respects the right and freedom of human beings to make their own choices.
So to start with, we need separate "pro-life" (in the sense of being opposed to abortion) and "pro-choice" (in the sense of believing the state should restrict it). There are certainly Buddhists who are both pro-choice and anti-choice regardless of whether they are also "pro-life."

It is widely recognized in a variety of sources that, in the traditional Buddhist sources, the ensoulment occurs at conception. Bhikkhu Bodhi mentions in the book In the Buddha's Words that consciousness (or perhaps more precisely viññāṇa) begins "from the moment of conception," though I don't know where precisely in the texts this is defined to be the case.

We see that this translates to a "pro-life" and sometimes "anti-choice" attitude in the Theravada countries. Sri Lanka allows abortion to preserve the life of the woman but not for any other reason. Myanmar is similar. Thailand is slightly more permissive–especially since it allows for health of the mother under some circumstances and includes mental health–while still generally banning it.

In Peter Harvey's An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics we see analysis that indicates that:

It is clear, at the very least, that the great majority of Buddhists agree that abortion is killing a human being, and is an evil that should be avoided, other things being equal. A crucial issue, though, is how evil it is and what 'other things' can come to outweigh this evil, so that abortion comes to be seen as a 'necessary evil' in certain circumstances?
It is important to note that in some cases these laws were only written after contact with European societies (details in links, Peter Harvey indicates as well that, pre-colonial times, Burma/Myanmar "abortion was not liable for punishment"). It is also the case that, even where it is banned, the laws do not appear equivalent to murder. There's also a great deal of individual variation outside of the state laws, especially in Thailand, where 95% of the population is Buddhist but there's some popular support for more lenient abortion laws.

As far as I can tell, Tibetan Buddhism is similarly strongly opposed to the practice, but there's still some nuance around treating it, with the Dalai Lama saying in an interview with the NYT (from the above BBC article examining Buddhist views on abortion):

Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances.

If the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent, these are cases where there can be an exception. I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance.
In Japan (and Korea per Harvey) it is much, much less restricted and the Japanese Buddhists are much more accepting of it. This was examined in the book Liquid Life: Abortion and Buddhism and Japan. It is notable that both US Buddhists and Japanese Buddhists tend to be much less opposed to abortion than other Buddhist groups.

This issue is explored further in Michael G. Barnhart's Buddhism and the Morality of Abortion, which notes that:

However, as Keown points out, (92) the cases dealt with involve women seeking abortions for questionable, perhaps self-serving, reasons including "concealing extramarital affairs, preventing inheritances, and domestic rivalry between co-wives." In short, if these are the paradigm examples of abortion, then the case is heavily biased against the practice.
In conclusion: We can say that, in general, Buddhism is opposed to abortion and believes that it incurs a significant karmic burden, especially Theravadan and Tibetan practice. Individuals and subgroups, meanwhile, especially in Japan and the United States, fall all along the spectrum with respect to:

The degree of problem.
What factors help to balance and to what extent they balance.
What precisely the state should do about it.
Regardless, the person who has had an abortion should be treated with compassion–not moral judgement–and it should be understood that the decision is pretty much universally a difficult one with a lot of complications and nuances.

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answered Jun 26 '14 at 1:56

This answer is very comprehensive and has very high academic value. The last part is especially wonderful "Regardless, the person who has had an abortion should be treated with compassion–not moral judgement–and it should be understood that the decision is pretty much universally a difficult one with a lot of complications and nuances."and I think being Buddhist we all should understand the complications involved and other answers over here suggest that we all do understand it. – sangharsh Jul 15 '14 at 9:39
This answer is most misleading and has less to do with what the Buddha taught, but simply reflects ethical compromises, which reflect the incapacity of the particular commenters to stick rather with the Dhamma as to tend to the worldlings view, for the sake of gaining. There is a clear message: not taking live. All aside are pushes of kilesas/defilements. The decision form a point of the Dhamma is a pretty simple one that does neither cost much time to think and burdens, nor will either hurt one self or others at the end. Abstaining form taking life, telling others to take life or approve it – Samana Johann Mar 16 at 10:46
How is it misleading? The answer not only exposed what the texts teach, but also exposed how buddhists in different cultures and countries seem to perceive the subject. And it seems the question really did encompassed how buddhists deal with this issue, additionally to what has been taught in the texts. This answer, then, seem to have tackled all the points raised in the question. – Thiago Silva Mar 16 at 20:59
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I would not know about the Buddhist community as a whole, but Dalai Lama once said that it is generally bad to kill even the fetus. He did give some room for context and circumstances though, for example if the mother is in danger.

As an answer, and from other sources I have seen, I would say that this is a pretty divisive subject, easier understood when we think of a Buddhist as a person that understands the difference between theory and practice.

It depends on the situation, really.

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edited Jun 25 '14 at 15:00

answered Jun 25 '14 at 12:21

Situation of what an whom? Your mood or the potential killer mood? That is why there are simply precepts. – Samana Johann Mar 16 at 10:49
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Buddhists believe that life begins at conception(as told in the pali suttas) and therefore it technically is the breaking of the 1st precept/training rule for the non harming of beings.

I believe it is also illegal in buddhist countries like Sri Lanka. That being said however there is a right mindset in dealing with those who choose abortion. I like what Ajahn Brahm has to say about it, compassion, not judgment.


This may also be helpful : http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books7/Ajahn_Brahm_When_Does_Human_Life_Begin.pdf

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edited Jun 25 '14 at 12:45
answered Jun 25 '14 at 12:14

Sāmaṇera Jayantha
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I've heard that one contemporary teacher suggests that a couple can give up a baby for adoption directly after birth. He highlighted that nowadays there is a growing number of couples trying and failing to conceive a baby so it is rather sad that other couples next door abort new lives. In some countries it is possible to choose new parents before the child birth so the biological mother can be sure that her baby goes to good home. But overall the teacher admits that such decisions are very difficult and it takes lots of courage and maturity to choose this option.

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answered Jun 25 '14 at 12:29

Well meant practical thoughts to give alternatives and make it visible that there is and can never be a reason for killing. Sadhu! – Samana Johann Mar 16 at 10:58
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"I am only mentioning the Theravada belief here"

As Buddhism teaches birth happens far before physical birth.It happens when the Semen finds the egg and start the process of growing.so not only abortion,Taking a pill is a violation of the first (not killing and never supporting killing).

Buddhism is against any sort of killing


Hiring for murder

Assisting murder

Praising murder

killing unborn


telling others to kill

approving the act of killing

Female rights for abortion is a medical and a social issue and it has nothing to do with Karma!

"Please note that there is no instruction on anything described as bad Karma to be done in a acceptable way.Buddhism is a straight religion it does not take back what it says and it does not open back doors to people to get away with things.What you choose to do is yours to decide but you will have to take it with you from life to life."

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edited Mar 17 at 10:37
answered Oct 27 '15 at 23:51

Sadhu! Maybe Upasaka likes to add, that telling others to kill and approving the act of killing is the same downfall kamma (body, speech, mind). – Samana Johann Mar 16 at 10:56
I see lots of web pages which say that "Buddhists believe that life begins when the egg is fertilised". What canonical doctrine is that based on? – ChrisW♦ Mar 16 at 16:36
Thank you Bhante, I will edit the answer. @SamanaJohann – Theravada Mar 17 at 10:35
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Reading through this answers, Ātman has no other possibility to totally disagree and disprove any even small notion of even suggesting people to take life or approve it.

Those monks, like mentioned in some quotes (look at the big suffering and harm they have actually brought over Australia) have already done a downfall transgression and are no more considered as afflicted this the Sangha, are no more Bhikkhus. When you take the case of political involvement of approving certain kinds of killing. Those action make a full offense.

Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying): "My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

Ignorance of these rules does not exempt an offender from the penalty, which is why the Buddha ordered that they be taught to each new bhikkhu as soon as possible after ordination (Mv.I.78.2-5). Because the rules cover a number of cases that are legal in present-day society (e.g., recommending abortion, proving to oneself how supple one has become through yoga by inserting one's penis in one's mouth) or that are common practice among people who see nothing wrong with flirting with the edges of the law (e.g., hiding an article subject to customs duties when entering a country), it is especially important to inform each new bhikkhu of the rules' full implications from the very start.

If a bhikkhu suspects that he has committed a pārājika, he should immediately inform a senior bhikkhu well versed in the rules.BMC1
The questioner would find plenty of cases in the Vinaya how abortion was seen and judged by the Buddha, even if Monks have only approved or having been involved. You can count those who are ignorant of that, or do laypeople a favor in making the issue relative, as no Monks at all. They are actually dangerous.

Precepts are not a little relative. Weather doing by one self, telling others to take and destroy life or to approve it, is a cardinal miss deed with long time effects and one does not need to think about this poor people who seek advises for people who mislead in the name of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. They suffer hell later on.

So even if one would vote as a citizens in approving any kind of killing, that one who votes takes a direct share of all the bodily kamma that is made, and the dimension is not calculate able.

There is no gray in the whole path of the Dhamma, and any teacher who starts with such suggestions, know him as an enemy and avoid him, not to speak of those who encourage and give reason to transgress basic precepts.

The big disaster and effects of this "popular" monks can be only overseen by those who are really lost.

"How many abortions are there in Australia? A discussion of abortion statistics, their limitations, and options for improved statistical collection...in 2004 that 100,000 women choose to end their pregnancy annually."

Can you image the effects of teaching something what is not Dhamma, by this actually killers? Avoid them!

A layperson, out of whatever reason, who becomes aware, should not wait to confess his/here misdeed (having done by one self, having told one to do, or approved such actions that leaded to destruction live. Its good to take advises for serious monks and learn from them. How ever, what is done can no more be changed and the fruits will ripe sooner or later as long in Samsara. So one should resolve to never transgress it again and eager walk on and work for his liberation in doing all kind of meritorious deeds.

...becomes sentient (as mentioned in the Question) Is a Mahayana development, which most significant dominates especially such new age approaches like New Karmapa. Such teaching are made to justify not only wrong livelihood but also killing in the name of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and can be possible easy accept by many people. How ever, the Buddha never came up to make the distinction between life or not dependent on such and its obvious that such is open to every kind of abuse and misinterpretation. Life, what ever breath, what ever has intent of any kind of existence. In this sphere there are even realms without feeling. And on that level one could even kill others when in Jhana, would they? Or a Buddha, Arahat... not to speak of deliberately killing all the time rationalizing in such ways. Each holocaust is even led by such implements. Avoid people who even mention "sentient being" as discrimination. Every being, what ever kind of existence it has, is worthy to be as good as possible protected in that what no being loves more: life. Sentient being, killing in the name of life, lack of virtue and rationalizations to justify transgressions of basic precepts is the very sign for A-Dhamma and teachers who lead many, not only themselves into misery and pain for long time. Avoid them!

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edited Mar 16 at 13:25
answered Mar 16 at 11:32

Samana Johann
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As you can see, the favored answer, in the style of de-criminalisation rather than increasing care and appamada got its flavor while natural a moral protective answer is not very welcome under the moralless and those with many faults since it is easier to agree with modified moral views and accepted excuses than to fight one's defilements and work towards a better way. It's normal that people like to paint their ways nice, even when they are following their moods right up to even the lowest realms. No one can help them, only they could do so for themselves.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:15:31 AM by Sophorn »
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April 22, 2018, 09:11:17 AM


April 22, 2018, 08:40:14 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
May every being be happy and free from dukkha.
May many renew their vows in silas today.   :-* :-* :-*


April 15, 2018, 12:43:25 AM
Bhante _/\_


April 15, 2018, 12:38:56 AM
Nyom Danilo.


April 12, 2018, 10:05:15 AM


April 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_


April 10, 2018, 07:19:18 PM


April 10, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Nyom. (Sideboad ist stets zugeklappt... tech. Probl.) 3:00 ist auch schon guten Tag.


April 10, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Good day (night here)


April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_


April 09, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Take your time Nyom Danilo and watch the breath to stay best calm for best benefit. A lot of chances to get ride of many ols burdens.


April 08, 2018, 06:24:57 PM


April 08, 2018, 05:54:03 PM
Nyom Danilo.


April 08, 2018, 09:58:59 AM


April 08, 2018, 07:35:17 AM


April 08, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
Good Uposatha to all. _/\_


April 01, 2018, 06:17:08 AM
 :-* :-* :-*


March 31, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
Nyom Jens.


March 31, 2018, 10:11:20 AM


March 31, 2018, 09:52:03 AM
 :-* ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*


March 27, 2018, 06:44:11 PM
Atma zieht sich hier nun zurück. Möge sich Vollkommenheit einstellen.


March 27, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Nyom Binocular.


March 27, 2018, 04:10:58 PM
Nyom Jens.


March 27, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
Brahmane Hanspeter.


March 27, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Moritz, mag sich Vollendung ergeben. (Chamreun bo)


March 27, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Chom reap sour. _/\_


March 27, 2018, 12:11:33 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_


March 26, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Nyom Binocular.

my person will leave for today and rests. There have been left some hard challenges (sure for many). May they be releasing taken and increase conviction.


March 25, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Gute Antwort. Sadhu!


March 25, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

beste wünsche zurück an erhwürdigen bhante! es ist unsicher wann ich wieder komme! upanissayapaccayena!  :-* :-* :-*


March 25, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
(Heute im Nordkloster, best wünsche vom Abt dort, er fragt stets "Wann kommt er? Ich muß immer an ihn denken."


March 24, 2018, 10:44:34 AM


March 24, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
 :-* heute ist uposatha!! ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen tag! mögen die devas jene bescheid geben, die kein zugang haben! :-*


March 23, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Sadhu! Zu was immer einer Zuflucht nimmt, sich hingibt, daran erfreut, das wird/ist sein Schutz, für Bindung oder Ungebundenheit.


March 23, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*


March 23, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)


March 23, 2018, 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.


March 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*


March 23, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?


March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM


March 21, 2018, 03:42:55 PM


March 21, 2018, 03:32:47 PM
 :-* mögen sie alle noch in diesem leben das herz von avijja befreien!!! :-*


March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.


March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.


March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.


March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.


March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".


March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_


March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori


March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
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