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Author Topic: Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?  (Read 1774 times)

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Offline Vorapol

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Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« on: December 15, 2016, 10:46:00 AM »

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Forum First Page Translation in Pali And Thai ,  hier zu einem neuen eröffnen. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur Herkunft, sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!

The new topic here is made from one or more post from there Forum First Page Translation in Pali And Thai . For eventual additionally information to this new Topic, please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!

[Original post:]


I shouldn't have any  relationship with this board and you, who cut/change/modify tipitaka.  4. upāsaka not seek for the gift-worthy outside of the Buddha’s teaching. 5. upāsaka do his first service in a Buddhist cause.

Quote from: A.III.206.
[259] upāsakadhamma 5 — qualities of an excellent lay disciple
       1. upāsaka is endowed with faith (open mind in logic [paṭiccasamuppādadhamma, and buddha+sangha who teach it]).
       2. upāsaka have good conduct (sīla, 10 kusalakammapatha).
       3. upāsaka is not superstitious. upāsaka believing in deeds, not luck.
       4. upāsaka not seek for the gift-worthy outside of the Buddha’s teaching.
       5. upāsaka do his first service in a Buddhist cause.
http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/dic/d_item.php?i=259
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 11:58:29 AM by Johann »

Offline Johann

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Re: Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2016, 11:54:49 AM »
Do as you wish and believe sankharas as you wish, but its good when you give you self a little bit more compassion and wisdom, which is often gained when simply remembering, sannja, sankharas, vedana, based on currend vinnana, its not sure, and patient with ones preoccupation is good. Its only you who could help your self to come down on earth again, Upasaka theY

Quote from: cuted out from the teachings and maybe not so good translated
1. upāsaka is endowed with faith (open mind in logic)
2. upāsaka have good conduct (sīla, 10 kusalakammapatha).
3. upāsaka is not superstitious. upāsaka believing in deeds, not luck.
How is it, how could it be, that "good conduct" leads into hell, to anger, red head, aversion?
Can it be found in 3.?

Even if given much metta & karuna, is it possible to help someone in rage?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 12:00:11 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Vorapol

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Antw:Re: Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2016, 03:43:59 PM »
Do as you wish and believe sankharas as you wish, but its good when you give you self a little bit more compassion and wisdom, which is often gained when simply remembering, sannja, sankharas, vedana, based on currend vinnana, its not sure, and patient with ones preoccupation is good. Its only you who could help your self to come down on earth again, Upasaka theY

Quote from: cuted out from the teachings and maybe not so good translated
1. upāsaka is endowed with faith (open mind in logic)
2. upāsaka have good conduct (sīla, 10 kusalakammapatha).
3. upāsaka is not superstitious. upāsaka believing in deeds, not luck.
How is it, how could it be, that "good conduct" leads into hell, to anger, red head, aversion?
Can it be found in 3.?

Even if given much metta & karuna, is it possible to help someone in rage?

Johann, tipitaka editor, you still editing tipitaka, in your last post.

In tipitaka taught 5 stuffs, you cut it to 3 stuffs.

You care only dissemination. You don't care about the origin. That's why you are not theravāda buddhist.

You don't care the relationship of tipitaka between words to words, book to book, etc.

This sutta come together 5 stuffs to tell students about theravāda-upāsaka, but you cut some stuffs off to make us talk out of theravāda buddhist, to be zen's upāsaka, or to be zen's monk, like you.

In vinaya, having acelakasikkhāpada, but you don't focus on it.

In commentary, anuruddha-etadagga who lived while 1 st sangayana, described this sutta in commentary, but you not even read commentary in the eyes.

Anyways, that sutta completely explain itself, but person who cut some part of it off will never understand it.
 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:51:51 PM by theY »

Offline Johann

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2016, 03:57:31 PM »
So Upasaka theY is sure about the first three in his regard? For sure he thinks current khandhās are for sure,  but are they? Are preoccupations for sure if you prove them with less as possible concite?

Let it be known when you have tried another kind of thinking. Meanwhile people will be patient till Upasaka comes out of his movie so that he can use his time for being an helpful teacher with his respected knowledge in his mastered sphere.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Vorapol

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Antw:Re: Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2016, 05:05:36 PM »
Quote from: ??
How is it, how could it be, that "good conduct" leads into hell, to anger, red head, aversion?
Can it be found in 3.?

Number 3 of sutta mean to no logic = no deeds = no relationship = luck = niyatamicchādiṭṭhi 3   (it's english explanation inside link).

Hells and heavens are results(phala[fruit], vipāka[ripped]) of deeds (kamma), so it is not luck (niyatamicchādiṭṭhi 3). This sutta taught you in number 2, good conduct. But you do not relate it together because your teacher not even taught you nettipakaraṇa, Johann.

Number 3  relate to number 2 because the end of kusalakammapada 10 (good conduct), is sammādiṭṭhi (righteous conduct, kammassakatāsammādiṭṭhi) .

Quote
14. "And how are there three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone is not covetous: he is not a coveter of another's chattels and property thus: 'Oh, that what is another's were mine!' He has no mind of ill-will, with the intention of a mind unaffected by hate thus: 'May these beings be free from enmity, affliction and anxiety, may they live happily!' He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, and there is fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, and there is this world and the other world and mother and father and spontaneously (born) beings, and good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declared this world and the other world.' That is how there are three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct.



However, person can have sasatadiṭṭhi (eternalism) before/after righteous conduct's born, because kammassakatāsammādiṭṭhi can control only niyatamicchditthi 3. It can not control ucchedadiṭṭhi and sasatadiṭṭhi.

Another, you, Johann, are ucchedadiṭṭhi (annihilationism) in Brahmajala sutta , too.

You take only the probably logic you loved, then cut another probably logic you hate. This is micchādiṭṭhi. So, you try to do not relate sutta together, relate sutta member together to keep your beloved view, and destroy your hated view (even though it maybe probably right).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 05:13:46 PM by theY »

Offline Johann

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 05:26:05 PM »
 Here in hell,  Upasaka would have planty of time for reflecting about him self.  What if Upasaka takes the chance rather to fight a battle against his outward world saññās?  Try it,  that is called practicing. Many things will be solved and back on sugati realms there is much possibility for dāna,  silā,  samādhi which them,  right done would maybe also lead to paññā,  even dassanāvija (vipassanā.  Its not possible without the previous steps.  Its just saññā that forms one ditthi after another,  forgetting the worldly and the transcentend right view. The cause and the way out of anger and pain,  upasaka theY.  Be patient with your self.

* Johann Atmas current eye view  :) making a Y in candle light in the dark night in the deep forest cave.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 05:39:21 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Vorapol

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 05:38:18 PM »
Even if given much metta & karuna, is it possible to help someone in rage?

You must to memorize pali, to learn tipitaka by old learning system. It will make you more providence.

       4. upāsaka not seek for the gift-worthy outside of the Buddha’s teaching.
http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/dic/d_item.php?i=259

What is buddha's teaching?

‘Householder since long your clan has been a welling spring to the nigantas. I think morsel food should be offered to those that come.’

and

4. upāsaka not seek for the gift-worthy outside of the Buddha’s teaching.

So, I can give you  rice, water, dress, etc. But I can't give any help for you  to cut off/modify tipitaka.

I also can't give you a relationship because someday I maybe change to be a tipitaka-modifier like you  ("Asevanā ca bālanaṃ", see mangalasutta 1 of 38 for reference).


Offline Vorapol

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 05:52:08 PM »
Here in hell,  Upasaka would have planty of time for reflecting about him self.  What if Upasaka takes the chance rather to fight a battle against his outward world saññās?  Try it,  that is called practicing. Many things will be solved and back on sugati realms there is much possibility for dāna,  silā,  samādhi which them,  right done would maybe also lead to paññā,  even dassanāvija (vipassanā.  Its not possible without the previous steps.  Its just saññā that forms one ditthi after another,  forgetting the worldly and the transcentend right view. The cause and the way out of anger and pain,  upasaka theY.  Be patient with your self.

* Johann Atmas current eye view  :) making a Y in candle light in the dark night in the deep forest cave.

Unlearned child is still  unlearned. Never read, never research, never learn any reference.

They just say what they wanna say to keep their insular view. They don't care any reference, or any origin.

That's why Johann is not theravada buddhist.

A zenist spy in theravada dress, Johann, delete my account, please. Don't send anything to me. I don't wanna know any tipitaka modifier, like you.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 06:04:22 PM by theY »

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 06:03:45 PM »
A zenist spy in theravada dress, Johann, delete my account, please. Don't send anything to me. I don't wanna know any tipitaka modifier, like you.

Offline Johann

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 06:05:29 PM »
 Whould you more relexed,  if Atma tells you that he neither has any aspiration to be buddhist nor even a theravada buddhist.  It would be somehow very not very loyal in regard of the Buddha, dhamma saṅgha.

No suicite sand killing support. That would be against the precepts,  even if done in the name of the three gems.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 06:46:54 PM »
Whould you more relexed,  if Atma tells you that he neither has any aspiration to be buddhist nor even a theravada buddhist.  It would be somehow very not very loyal in regard of the Buddha, dhamma saṅgha.

No suicite sand killing support. That would be against the precepts,  even if done in the name of the three gems.

You dressing and using theravada tipitaka, zenist. You can act like ajitakesakambala. But arahanta will not act like you because they act like this sutta:

[Deva:]
He who's an Arahant, his work achieved,
Free from taints, in final body clad,
That monk still might use such words as "I."
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
...
Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]
Bonds are gone for him without conceits,
All delusion's chains are cast aside:
Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1]
That monk still might use such words as "I,"
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Well aware of common worldly speech,
He would speak conforming to such use.

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 06:51:33 PM »
No way to help you here.

Metta

Johann:    *

For you protection, you possibilities within the Sanghamitta an especially Acarica-Membership having been disabled temporary since in a state of anger one could do much damage for one self and the are actually many very trust and awarness needed possibilities.  Let it be known when this state of mind has come to an end,  so that the great possible help of TheY could get it's best enviroment again.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 07:16:44 PM by Administration »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Antw:Anger and Vibhava: no way out of hell?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 06:52:16 PM »
No suicite sand killing support. That would be against the precepts,  even if done in the name of the three gems.

Who taught you vinaya? Your precepts don't have reference by tipitaka.

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 20, 2018, 02:52:14 AM
Atma leaves for alms round, Nyom Villa.
 

Johann

October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])
 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

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