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2019 Jan 19 01:28:38
Johann: "A monk with admirable people    as friends — who's reverential, respectful, doing what his friends advise — mindful, alert, attains step by step    the ending of all fetters." iti 17

2019 Jan 18 16:31:13
Johann: ភនតេ មុនី ការភ្ជាប់សំឡេងភ្ជាប់

2019 Jan 18 13:45:40
Johann: Guess all is now proper sorted in the correspondig topic. If something got "lost", put wrongely, may one let it be known.

2019 Jan 18 10:34:49
Johann: Reading, translating the many forzmguides.

2019 Jan 18 10:34:01
Johann: Mudita. Yet much new, much to learn, much to explore: patient is importand, and observing ways of doing things.

2019 Jan 18 07:29:08
Cheav Villa: But not yet finished, .. touched enter  ^-^ and..

2019 Jan 18 07:25:06
Cheav Villa: Bhante Muni actually said.. really enjoyed of dwelling here  _/\_

2019 Jan 18 06:42:04
Johann: much uddhacca-kukkucca, or?

2019 Jan 18 06:10:12
Johann: Bhante Muni wrote: "I, Brah Karuna, Atma-peap, am greating ñati ñoma (former blood relatives) to the extend of respecting goodwill (metta), I, Brah Karuna, Atma-peap, really..."

2019 Jan 18 06:01:10
Johann: One easy becomes a browser (neak quial hungry)

2019 Jan 18 05:56:43
Cheav Villa:  :D :D :D _/\_

2019 Jan 18 05:55:26
Johann: Atma is now very busy in cutting, moving, mergle... maybe slowly and with mindfulness: where am I? Whats the topic?...  :)

2019 Jan 18 04:38:03
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុ Bhante Muny 

2019 Jan 18 04:20:34
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 18 04:19:09
Muni: ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណាអាត្មាភាព សូមនមស្សការនិងចម្រើនពរញាតិញោម ដោយសេចក្ដីគោរពរាប់អាន ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណាអាត្មាភាពពិត

2019 Jan 18 03:39:39
Cheav Villa: អរព្រះគុណ​ព្រះអង្គ​ បាននិមន្តចូលរួមវិភាគទាន នៅទីនេះ _/\_

2019 Jan 18 03:39:00
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​មុនី :D _/\_

2019 Jan 17 16:22:47
Johann: Bhante Muni  _/\_

2019 Jan 17 12:59:11
Johann: So it's enought or would some broken Khmer Audio be of support, Nyom?

2019 Jan 17 09:20:36
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻អរព្រះគុណព្រះអង្គBhante . ករុណាបានអាមអត្ថបទដែលព្រះអង្គបានផុសជាភាសាអង់គ្លេសនោះ បានយល់ខ្លះៗហេីយ :D :D

2019 Jan 17 06:45:05
Johann: Being become, appeare always where desired Why beings take birth, even in most worse existences and circumstances?

2019 Jan 17 06:41:35
Johann: One becomes and dwells there where one is inclinated (most anusayā), distinguished gross: 1. world, 1. Nibbana.

2019 Jan 17 06:20:33
Cheav Villa: លោកតាទើបចេះពន្យល់ ខ្ញុំ​មិនសូវ​ដឹងឆ្លើយទេ ^-^

2019 Jan 17 06:19:32
Cheav Villa: សូមចូលមកសរសេរសួរលោកតា នៅវត្ត​ កុំសួរតាមMessenger  :D

2019 Jan 17 06:18:35
Cheav Villa: សួស្តី​បងធី​ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 16:33:43
Cheav Villa: Things to read :D

2019 Jan 16 16:27:50
Cheav Villa: Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 15:28:02
Johann: The Story of Culekasataka (Maha Kassapa and his wife in former life)

2019 Jan 16 15:20:13
Johann: ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក

2019 Jan 16 04:07:43
Khemakumara: Nyom Chanroth

2019 Jan 16 02:09:37
Chanroth: សាធុសាធុសាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 02:07:10
Johann: ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក

2019 Jan 16 02:06:36
Chanroth: ជំរាបសួរ Moritz

2019 Jan 16 02:06:31
Johann: "Another day, another possibility. We don't know what tomorrow might be."

2019 Jan 15 19:41:08
Khemakumara: Nyom Moritz

2019 Jan 15 19:38:38
Moritz: Vandami Bhante (Khemakumara) _/\_

2019 Jan 15 17:13:16
Johann: Nyom Puthy, maybe this helps: ការរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុង website .

2019 Jan 15 16:10:29
Ieng Puthy: ព្រះអង្គករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុលាសិនហេីយ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:07:58
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាគ្រាន់តែចូលអាន ករុណាមិនទាន់យល់ពីរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុងwebsite នៅឡេីយទេ ព្រះអង្គ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:00:58
Johann: How ever one feels inspired, has joy, likes to give into.  How can I use the forum purposefully, for myself, as well as for others?

2019 Jan 15 15:57:55
Johann: No need to use all possibilities for merits for one alone but good to invite others to join and become more independend till free.

2019 Jan 15 15:04:39
Johann: no requirement to do all, merits step by step. "The path to nibbana is hard", they say, and don't do even little steps, Nyom. As inspired, its at least a working and concentration camp, Devas delight in creation, Devas having contr. over the creation of others.

2019 Jan 15 14:53:43
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គការបកប្រែមកជាខ្មែរ  មានខុសច្រើនណាស់  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 14:49:16
Khemakumara: leng Puthy

2019 Jan 15 14:48:29
Khemakumara: Nyom leng Pitts

2019 Jan 15 14:45:35
Johann: There is a lot of new for many. If the Nyom Ladies like to help in translating here and there a little, it might be easier for khmer-speaking monks to get informed well.

2019 Jan 15 14:25:23
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 13:33:34
Khemakumara: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 13:32:47
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 13:27:53
Johann: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 10:46:40
Johann: But a topic can be opened everywhere and can then be moved.

2019 Jan 15 10:45:27
Johann: There is also a Link to direct Requests for Teachings - link, so things get not lost.

2019 Jan 15 10:44:12
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាព្រះអង្គ🙏🏻អរព្រះគុុណ ព្រះអង្គ

2019 Jan 15 10:42:55
Johann: Good place is surely at  Dhammatalks - (dhamma desanā)

2019 Jan 15 10:35:06
Johann: Talkbox is not proper, just for greating and small-talk

2019 Jan 15 10:24:47
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ព្រះអង្គ តេីមានធម៌អ្វីដែលអាចកំចាត់ធម៌លោភៈល្អិតនៅក្នុងចិត្តបានដែរឬទេ ?ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 15 10:21:37
Johann: Just open a new topic best, Nyom Puthy (requires some bhava-chanda)

2019 Jan 15 10:17:22
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 15 10:07:10
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe

2019 Jan 15 10:01:15
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គមុនី! ករុណាមានសំណួរ១អំពី អនុស្ស័យកិលេសមាន៧ គឺ 1-កាមរាគានុស្ស័យ 2-ភវនុស្ស័យ3

2019 Jan 15 09:31:36
Cheav Villa:  :)  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:27:54
Chanroth: ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុន្នី ពីរអាស្រមថ្មទូក_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:21:46
Chanroth: បាតជំរាបសួរបងស្រី ខ្ញុំមិនទាន់បានធ្វេីនៅឡេីយទេ ពីព្រោះខ្ញុំឈឺ បានធូហេីយ តែមិនទាន់បាត់ថ្លោះករនៅឡេីយ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 08:57:49
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុនី  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 07:34:19
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 05:57:47
Cheav Villa: តើពូកំពុងជួយការងារលោកតាមែនទេ?តើនៅអាស្រមមានកង្វះខាតអ្វីទេនៅពេលនេះ

2019 Jan 15 05:54:51
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរពូចាន់រ័ត្ន _/\_

2019 Jan 15 01:12:12
Johann: And "we" wouldn't always know or find out but need to relay on one who know

2019 Jan 15 01:06:48
Johann: There are two kinds of sadness and happiness, of which one of each is conductive for liberation, one not.

2019 Jan 15 01:02:24
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we always be able to find out for ourselves how much attachment we accumulate, and whether this brings us happiness or sorrow! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 15 01:00:52
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir immer  selbst herausfinden kӧnnen, wie viel Anhaftung wir anhäufen und ob  diese Anhaftung uns die Frӧhlichkeit oder  die Traurigkeit bringt! Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 13:52:41
Johann: Nyom Puthy. May you all have good Dhamma conversations with each other, don't be shy on that. Atma will go to rest.

2019 Jan 14 13:48:00
Johann: ញោម ចាន់រ័ត្ន

2019 Jan 14 12:49:01
Cheav Villa: អរព្រះគុណព្រះអង្គ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 12:36:20
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we possess the causes of blissfulness always! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 12:35:18
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mӧgen wir immer die Ursachen der Glückseligkeit besitzen! Dhamma Grüβe  aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 10:20:32
Johann: "នាងវិសាខា ក្រាបបង្គំទូលថា ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំម្ចាស់រក្សាឧបោសថៈព្រះអង្គ។"...

2019 Jan 14 09:49:40
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 06:59:34
Cheav Villa: Jain-Upossathaកូណាមុិនទាន់យល់ន័យនៃពាក្យនេះទេ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 05:12:41
Johann: "មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន"... មែន(sense)ទុក្ខឬមិន? Where?

2019 Jan 14 04:57:55
Johann: Buddha and Savaka do not teach Jain-Uposatha: អ្នកណា​មាទុក្ខ? , Sadhu

2019 Jan 14 04:50:21
Johann: ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល! មានទេមិនមាន ... ការនិយាយអំពីសត្វ។ ធម៌ទាំងអស់មានមូលហេតុ ដូច្នេះ: រឿងដំបូងនៅលើកដំបូង!

2019 Jan 14 04:21:59
Cheav Villa: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន ជាអនត្តាធម៌ ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល  _/\_

2019 Jan 14 04:16:00
Johann: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួនទេ = មិនមែនទុក្ខទេ

2019 Jan 14 04:06:00
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 14 04:05:16
Johann: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា !

2019 Jan 14 02:18:42
Chanroth: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា

2019 Jan 13 15:16:49
Johann: First things first , very recommended, hearing the Uposatha of the Jains from the Villages all the time here.

2019 Jan 13 15:05:49
Johann: again and again coming back to Dhamma, Punja? Habits become destinies.

2019 Jan 13 14:53:42
Johann: coming back seems to be niccaŋ

2019 Jan 13 14:40:52
Cheav Villa: អនិច្ចំ *sgift*

2019 Jan 13 14:29:43
Ieng Puthy:  Chom reap leah , good bye🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:18:50
Moritz: Chom reap leah, good bye _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:11:50
Ieng Puthy: Hello Master Morithz🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:07:24
Moritz: Hello Ieng Puthy _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:07:16
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jan 13 13:54:34
Ieng Puthy: ជំរាបសួរ បងចាន់រ័ត្ន Bong Chanroth 🙏🏼សូមបងឆាប់បានជាសះស្បេីយ

2019 Jan 13 13:49:26
Johann: Meister Moritz

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Author Topic: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung  (Read 8625 times)

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Offline Johann

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« on: April 01, 2013, 02:44:30 PM »

Werte Freunde,

ich erlaube mir hier ein sehr heißes Thema aufzumachen. Heiß warum? Weil wohl Geschlecht der größte und stärkste Dünkel aber auch die größte Ausrede unserer Zeit ist. Einer sehr respektlosen Zeit und das ist auch, der Kernpunkt der ganzen Sache, so ich meine. Zumindest für jene, die dem Geschlechterstolz nicht der Sache Vorrang geben wollen, mag es eine Hilfe sein. Bedenkt bitte, daß diese Existenz für die meisten nicht das letzte Geschlecht sein wird, dessen man "inne wohnt". Die Schuhe des anderen trägt man schneller als man glaubt und hat sich auch schon oft getragen und doch ist bisher kein Sieg.

Zu Einführung hier vorweg eine grundsätzliche Erklärung von Thanissaro Bhikkhu, aus dem Monastic Code II , wie das und warum das mit der Bhikkuni-Einweihung so "hart" gesehen wird. (die Übersetzung ist nicht korrekturgelesen und sicherlich fehlerhaft)

Ordination. After receiving full Acceptance, Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī approached the Buddha and asked him what should be done with the 500 Sakyan women who had followed her in requesting ordination. The Buddha's reply was to allow that bhikkhunīs be given full Acceptance by bhikkhus (Cv.X.2.1).

Einweihung. Nachdem Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī die volle Anerkennung erhalten hatte, wartete sie Buddha auf und fragte ihn, was mit den 500 Sakyan Frauen passieren sollte, die ihr für die Anfrage auf Ordination gefolgt sind. Buddhas Antwort war die Erlaubnis, daß Bhikkhus die volle Anerkennung an Bhikkhunīs erteilen dürfen (Cv.X.2.1).

When this allowance was first given, it obviously meant that bhikkhus could give full Acceptance to lay women. Over time, however, as the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha developed, the pattern for full Acceptance changed until it arrived at the pattern set forth in the sixth rule of respect (Cv.X.17). In other words, the candidate for full Acceptance first formally requested training from the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, after which she underwent a training period in which she was not to break any of the first six of the ten precepts for two years. (Apparently she did this as a novice nun, although this point is controversial.) If she broke any of these six precepts, the two-year training period was begun again. When she had completed two full years of this training without break, the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha — after authorizing her as having completed the training — would give her full Acceptance (Bhikkhunī Pc 63, 64, 66, 67, 72, & 73).

Als diese Erlaubnis erteilt wurde, bedeutete dies offensichtlich, das Bhikkhus volle Anerkennung Laien Frauen erteilen können. Doch mit der Zeit, als sich die Bhikkhunī Saṅgha wuchs, änderten sich diese Vorgehensweisen für eine volle Anerkennung, bis diese an einem Musterset in den sechs Regeln des Respektes (Cv.X.17) anlangten. Mit anderen Worten erbat der Kanditatin einer vollen Anerkennung zuerst formal das Training unter der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, nach dessen sie eine Übungszeit, in der sie keine der ersten sechs der zehn Tugendübungsregeln für eine Dauer von zwei Jahren brechen durfte, durchlebte. (So wie es scheint, tat sie dies als eine Novizen Nonne, auch wenn dieser Punkt etwas strittig ist). Wenn sie eine dieser sechs Regeln brach, begann die Zweijahresperiode von neuem. Wenn sie dieses Training innerhalb von zwei vollen Jahren, ohne ein Vergehen abgewickelt hatte, würde die Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, nach dem sie sie autorisiert hatten diese Übung abgeschlossen zu haben, ihr volle Anerkennung erteilen (Bhikkhunī Pc 63, 64, 66, 67, 72, & 73).

Unlike the Bhikkhu Saṅgha, where two or three candidates sharing the same preceptor could be ordained with a single transaction statement, only one candidate could be accepted as a bhikkhunī in a single transaction statement, inasmuch as one sponsor (pavattanī), the female equivalent of a preceptor, could not take on more than one student within a span of two consecutive years (Bhikkhunī Pc 82 & 83).

Anders als bei der Bhikkhu Saṅgham, in der zwei oder drei Kanditaten die den selben Tutor teilten, in einer einzigen Abwicklungsabhandlung eingeweiht werden konnten, konnte nur eine Kanditatin als Bhikkhunī, in eine einzelnen Abwicklungsabhandlung eingeweiht werden. Dies kommt daher, das ein Gönner (pavattanī), die weibliche Form eines Tutors, nicht mehr als einen Studenten in der Zeitspanne der laufenden zwei Jahre annehmen kann (Bhikkhunī Pc 82 & 83).

Immediately after her Acceptance in the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, the candidate was to be taken to the Bhikkhu Saṅgha, where she was to be given full Acceptance a second time (Cv.X.17.8). If, however, there were dangers in taking her to the Bhikkhu Saṅgha, a messenger — an experienced, competent bhikkhunī — could be sent in her place (Cv.X.22). In either event, only when the candidate's Acceptance had been ratified by the Bhikkhu Saṅgha was she considered fully ordained.

Sofort nach der Anerkennung in der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, war die Kaditatin zu der Bhikkhu Saṅgha zu bringen, wo ihr die volle Anerkennung ein zweites Mal gegen wurde (Cv.X.17.8). Wenn es aus irgend einem Grund ein Gefahr gab, sie zur Bhikkhu Saṅgha zu bringen, konnte ein Nachrichtenübermittler, eine Erfahrene, kompetente bhikkhunī, an ihrer Stelle gesendet werden (Cv.X.22). In jedem dieser Fälle,war die Kanditatin nur dann als voll eingeweiht betrachtet, nachdem ihre Anerkennung von der Bhikkhu Saṅgha akzeptiert wurde.

In establishing these procedures, the Buddha retained the earlier allowance for bhikkhus to give full Acceptance for bhikkhunīs but altered it so that it applied only to a candidate who had properly followed all the preliminary procedures, from requesting training to being given Acceptance by the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha (Cv.X.17.2).

Mit der Einführung dieser Prozedur, behielt Buddha die frühere Erlaubnis für Bhikkhus, volle Anerkennung für Bhikkhunīs zu erteilen, bei, aber formte sie so um, daß es nur dann möglich ist, wenn die Kanditatin in passender Weise den vorhergehenden Ablauf eingehalten hat: von dem Ersuchen um die Übung bis zur gegebenen Anerkennung von der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha (Cv.X.17.2).

It has been argued that because the original allowance for bhikkhus to ordain bhikkhunīs was never explicitly rescinded, it is still in place, and so bhikkhus may ordain bhikkhunīs without the candidates' having to go through the preliminary procedures. This argument is based on drawing a parallel to the way in which the Acceptance of bhikkhus changed in the early years of the Teaching, in which the allowance for the Community to give Acceptance by means of a transaction with one motion and three proclamations (Mv.I.28.3) explicitly rescinded the earlier allowance (Mv.I.12.4) for groups of bhikkhus to give the Going-forth and Acceptance by means of the three goings for refuge. This, the argument claims, establishes a pattern that can be applied to bhikkhuni ordination as well. If the Buddha had meant for the allowance in Cv.X.2.1 to be fully rescinded, he would have said so in Cv.X.17.2.

Es wurde Argumentiert, daß es aufgrund der vorhergehenden Erlaubnis für Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunīs einzuweihen, und nie expliziert annuliert wurde, dieses nach wie vor in Takt wäre und Bhikkhus Bhikkhunīs, ohne das die Kanditatin zuvor durch die vorrangige Prozzedur gegangen ist, einweihen dürfen. Dieses Argument zeichnet eine parallele zu dem Weg, wie die Anerkennung von Bhikkhus sich in den ersten Jahrender Lehre verändert hatten, heraus: die Abwicklung durch einen Antrag und drei Erklärungen (Mv.I.28.3) gefolgt von einer eindeutigen Annulierung der früheren Erlaubnis (Mv.I.12.4) für Gruppen von Bhikkhus das Fortschreiten durch die dreifache Zuflucht anzuerkennen. Dieses, auf das dieses Argument aufbaut, erstellt ein Muster, daß man auch für die Bhikkhuni Ordination anwenden könnte. Wenn Buddha beabsichtigt hätte die Erlaubnis von Cv.X.2.1 völlig zu anullieren, hätte er dieses in Cv.X.17.2. so geäußert.

However, this argument ignores the fact that the Buddha followed two different patterns in changing Community transactions, depending on the type of changes made. Only when withdrawing permission for something he had earlier explicitly allowed (as in Mv.I.28.3 and Cv.X.7) did he follow the pattern of explicitly rescinding the earlier allowance or imposing an offense on taking advantage of it. When keeping an earlier allowance while adding new conditions to it, he followed a second pattern, in which he merely stated the new conditions for the allowance and gave directions for how the new form of the transactions should be conducted. Examples for this second pattern include the changes in the Community transaction for the Acceptance of bhikkhus (Mv.I.38.3-5; Mv.I.76.10-12) and the authorization of areas where one is not apart from one's robes (Mv.II.12.1-2; Mv.II.12.3-4). When a Community transaction is modified in this way, the rescinding of the earlier transaction pattern is made clear by the fact that the revised directions state explicitly, "this is how it should be agreed upon," "this is how the Saṅgha is to be informed." This, in effect, means that the older procedures should no longer be used.

Wie auch immer übersieht dieses Argument die Tatsache, das Buddha zwei verschiedenen Mustern im ändern von Gemeinschaftsabläufen in Abhängigkeit der Art der Änderung die er machte, gefolgt ist. Nur wenn eine Erlaubnis für etwas das er zuvor explizit erlaubt hat (wie in Mv.I.28.3 und Cv.X.7), aufgehoben wurde, folgte er dem Muster des ausdrücklichen Annulierens der früheren Erlaubnis oder verhängte ein Vergehen, für den Missbrauch dessen. Wenn er eine frühere Erlaubnis hernahm und ihr neue Bedingungen zufügte, folgte er einem anderen Muster, in dem er sich mehr auf die neuen Bedingungen für die Erlaubnis bezog und gab eine Richtung vor, wie die neuer Form der Abwicklung gehandhabt werden sollte. Ein Beispiel für dieses zweite Muster beinhaltet die Änderunger der Gemeinschaftsabwicklungen für die Anerkennung von Bhikkhus (Mv.I.38.3-5; Mv.I.76.10-12) und die Bewilligung von Bereichen, wo jemand nicht über getrennt von seinen eigenen Gewändern ist (Mv.II.12.1-2; Mv.II.12.3-4). Wenn eine Gemeinschaftsabwicklung in dieser Weise geändert ist, wird die Aufhebung des früheren Abwicklungsmusters klar mit dem Umstand, daß überarbeitete Richtungsweisung eindeutig erklärt „so sollte dies vereinbart sein,“ „so ist die Saṅgha zu informieren“. Das bedeutet, das die ältere Prozedur nicht mehr genutz werden sollte.

Because Cv.X.17.2, the passage allowing bhikkhus to give full Acceptance to a candidate who has been given Acceptance by the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha, simply adds new conditions to the earlier allowance given in Cv.X.2.1, it follows this second pattern. This automatically rescinds the earlier allowance.

Weil Cv.X.17.2, der Abschnitt, der Bhikkhus erlaubt, Kanditatinen die volle Anerkennung zu erteilen, denen von der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha volle Anerkennung erteilt wurde, einfach nur neue Konditionen, zu der früheren Erlaubnis die in Cv.X.2.1 erteilt wurde, hinzufügt, läuft dies nach dem zweiten Muster. Dies anulliert automatisch die vorhergehende Erlaubnis.

The valid reasons for rescinding the earlier allowance are not hard to see. As long as the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha was still in existence, Cv.X.17.2 ensured that bhikkhus could not add new members to the Bhikkhunī Saṅgha without the consent of the latter. In other words, the bhikkhus could not force the bhikkhunīs to accept into their Community new members they didn't want. In the event that the original Bhikkhunī Saṅgha died out, Cv.X.17.2 prevents bhikkhus from granting Acceptance to women when they are unable to provide them with a properly trained Community of bhikkhunīs under which to train.

Die rechte Begründungen für die Auflösung der ersten Erlaubnis sind nicht schwer zu sehen. So lange die Bhikkhunī Saṅgha noch am Bestehen war, sicherte Cv.X.17.2 das Bhikkhus keine neuen Mitglieder der Bhikkhunī Saṅgha ohne Einwilligung dieser hinzufügen könnten. Mit anderen Worten, konnten die Bhikkhus die Bhikkhunīs nicht zwingen, neue Mitglieder in ihrer Gemeinschaft aufzunehmen, die sie nicht wollten. Mit dem Ereignis das die ursprüngliche Bhikkhunī Saṅgha ausgestorben ist, hält Cv.X.17.2 Bhikkhus von der Befugnis Anerkennung an Frauen zu erteilen, welche unmöglich ein passendes Training in der Gemeinschaft von Bhikkhunīs vorweisen können, ab.

Wie immer eine sehr nachvollziehbare Erklärung und dennoch für mein Herz nicht ganz zufrieden stellen.
Allgemein möchte ich dazu bemerken, daß ich sehr große Dankbarkeit und Demut gegenüber der großzügigen Arbeit vom Ehrwürdigen Bhikkhu Thanissaro habe. Auch wenn mich die meisten Teile (die ich bisher gelesen habe, ich pflege dies nur im Anlaßfall zu tun) sehr freuen, finden sich doch auch sehr viele Dinge darin, von denen ich meine, daß sie aus einer gewissen Verpflichtung der eigenen Schule und deren Haltung enthalten sind. Aber auch bei diesen Dingen hinterläßt der Ehrwürdige stets (auch wenn nicht für jeden sichtbar) eine Bemerkung stehen.
So wie das erlauben von Fliegen und Mitfahren in motorbetriebenen Fahrzeugen neben eine sehr klaren und treuen Haltung entsprechend der Vinaya (nicht zu sprechen von einem tieferen Verständnis) und anderen modernen "Ausreden".

Hier in diesem Fall liegt die Begründung einzig und alleine auf den erkannten zweierlei Arten der Muster von Vorgehensweisen, was die Annullierung von alten Regeln betrifft. Gut, mag so sein.

Dann kommt da noch das Argument auf, daß diese zweite Regelung für die volle Anerkennung von Kandidaten aus dem Grund entsatnden ist, um ein "hineinpressen" von neuen Bhikkhunis in den Orden ohne der Zustimmung vom Bhikkhuniorden zu vermeiden.
Verständlicher Ansatz doch fehlen hier ein paar Dinge die ebenfalls guter Grund dafür sein könnte oder ist.

Zum einen der Gedanke: Dieses hat die Funktion um zu verhindern, daß Liebkinder in den Orden gebracht werden und diese eben nicht diese schwere Auflage oder Training des Respektes unter jenen, die es schon verstanden haben (Ihresgleichen) unterlaufen und ihnen damit das Verständnis für die Notwendigkeit es Respektes fehlt und erst gar nicht von jenen, die es besser und ohne die Geschlechtliche Barriere erklären könnten, erklärt bekommen haben.
Diese würde ich viel mehr als den eigentlichen Grund verstehen. Diese Vorgehensweise verhindert auch die geschlechtliche Korruption die aus Mitleid oder Neigung entstehen kann. Frauen sind da ganz gut untereinander, wenn es das beurteilen ihrergleichen betrifft.

Zum anderen, was soll das sein, ein Orden, der Bhikkhuni Orden. Auch bei den Bhikkhus gibt es zahlreiche kleine Gemeinschaften, die unabhängig voneinander einweihen und anerkennen. Das dort und da Leuten die Einweihung erteilt wird, denen sie nicht erteilt werden sollte, ist etwas das nicht verhinderbar ist und zu dem Thema, gibt es ja auch Hinweise und Sutten. Das ist ganz unabhängig von Manderl und Weiberl.

Der Kernpunkt, oder besser der Damm, den Buddha errichtet hat, ist der Respekt und jeder der etwas aufmerksam ist und ehrlich ist (egal welches Geschlecht) wird das sehen und verstehen. Die Volksmeinung muß man bei so einer Sache zur Seite legen, denn es mag hundert mal geglaubt sein, daß alle gleich sind, sind alle eben nicht gleich und stets das Resultat ihren Handlungen und die Enden ja auch noch nicht.

Ich behaupte jetzt mal, daß jede Kandidatin, die sich diesem zweijährigen Training unter der Anleitung und Prüfung von weiblichen Geschulten (jene die ein Leben nach Vinaya führen, spezifische Schule ist da kein Thema) unterworfen hat, und dieses Absolviert hat, die Anerkennung durch die Bhikkhus erbitten kann.

Und das der Bhikkhuniorden ausgestorben sein, ist gar nicht so klar. Das mag vielleicht innerhalb einer bestimmten Schule so sein, aber alle Schulen haben ihre "Veruntrbünungen" aber auch ihre Möglichkeiten.
Wenn man die Vinaya zu schriftlich nimmt, bewegen sich schon von Anwärter her nur Erwachte darin und es würde keine einzige "rechtmäßige" Einweihung geben, wenn man sich auf eine reine Linie beziehen wollte. Auf und ab, war immer in der Geschichte ein Thema, wie auch immer wieder jene gekommen sind, und etwas aufgekehrt haben.

Das Thema, daß eine Bhikkhu nicht einfach eine Frau ordinieren kann, ist für mich vollkommen verständlich, da dies speziell heute ein ganz bewusstes Abreißen, des von Buddha errichteten Dammes wäre. Viele nicht korrupte Leute laufen ja nicht mehr herum.

Gerade aus dem Grund wäre es sehr wichtig für die Sangha, diese Fauenordination so schnell wie möglich auf eine rechtmäßige Basis zu stellen, da sonst die Scharlatane alles zerstören werden.

Aus meiner Sicht, liegt es heute voll und ganz an den Bhikkhunis selber sich zu beweisen und sich dieses wirklich rechtschaffend und nicht aus Lobbyeismus zu verdienen. Ja selbst zum Schutze des Bhikkhuni Ordens und der Möglichkeit dazu auf das eine oder andere vielleicht bereits errungene zu verzichten.

Den "Bhikkhu"-Orden möchte ich sehen, der eine Gefolgschaft von rechtschaffenden und respektvollen Ziehmüttern, die sich einem harten Training hingegeben haben, mit dem Handy, der Presse und der gedruckten Vinaya in der Hand, vor dem Tor ablehnt.

Na wie auch immer, ist es sicher spanned zuzusehen, ob man diesen gegenseitigen Druck zum Geschlechtererfolg oder zum Fortschrittserfolg nutzen wird.

Dies sein aber nur meine wie immer patzigen Worte und ich bin mir sicher, das viele feine "juristische" Überlegungen und Taktiken da jetzt nicht eingeflossen sind und möchte sie nur als Anregung in die Diskussion stellen und gar nicht so sehr als vielleicht sogar fundiert im Hinblick auf den wörtlichen Vinaya verstanden wissen. Also nur das Aufmucken eines Winkelschreibers und hoffe auch etwas fundiertere und sicherere Aussagen und vielleicht auch wiedergaben aus der überlieferten Vinaya selbst.

Würde mich freuen, wenn diese Thema hauptsächlich von weiblichen Teilnehmern und Interessierten in verständnisvoller Weise und weniger in angegriffener oder zurückgestellter Haltung aufgearbeitet würde und damit wenig Stoff für "Siehst du! Sie haben keine Fähigkeit zum Respekt" gibt und damit wieder zu einem Eigentor wird.

Meine Patzigkeit hier mag ebenfalls nicht als Disrespekt verstanden sein.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 05:44:44 AM by Johann »
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2013, 06:00:57 AM »
Vielleicht ergänzend dazu (für den Fall, daß jemand "ungerechtfertigt" als Bhikkhuni Ordiniert wurde):

Quote from:  Buddhist Monastic Code II - Chapter 14 Ordination
aus Disqualifications.
 The factors that would disqualify an applicant from receiving ordination are of three sorts:

those marking him as an undesirable member of the Community — if he happens to be ordained, he counts as ordained, but the bhikkhus participating in the ordination incur a dukkaṭa; and

those indicating that he is formally unprepared for full Acceptance (for instance, he lacks robes and an alms-bowl or does not have a valid preceptor) — the Canon does not state whether these factors absolutely invalidate the applicant's Acceptance, but the Commentary puts them in the same class as the undesirables, above.

Die Faktoren, die einen Anwärter davon abhalten würden, eine Einweihung zu erhalten, sind von dreierlei Art:

jene, die ihm [Sie] als unerwünschtes Mitglied er Gemeinschaft ansehen - sollte es passieren, daß er [Sie] eingeweiht wird, zählt er [Sie] als eingeweiht, aber die Bhikkhus die an der Einweihung teilgenommen haben, haben sich ein dukkata eingehandelt, und

jene, die ihn [Sie] formal als unvorbereitet für eine volle Anerkennung bezeichnen (zum Beispiel, daß es ihm [Ihr] ein einer Almosenschale fehlt oder keinen geeigneten Tutor hat) - Der Kanon führt nicht an, ob dieses eine Anerkennung absolut fehlerhaft ausmacht, aber die Kommentare reihen es in die Selbe Klasse wie die unerwünschten oben.

Aus dem heraus, sage ich nun, daß sich mein Bauch wieder etwas mit den Schriften vereint fühlt und kann in dieser Ordinierungssache nur sagen: "Es sei, wie es sei. Stirbt das Huhn, bleibt das Ei" und diese sehr buddhistische Bauernweisheit, denke ich , entspricht dieser Sache sehr.

Nicht das sich da jemand durch die Diskussion gefährdet fühlt, dienst sie dazu das/die Kücken zu eine Zucht zu bringen und dazu gehört nun mal auch ein gesundes Verhältnis zum Hahn.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 10:26:52 AM »

Vielleicht nützlich zum Thema und für den einen oder anderen von Interesse: Bhikkhuni Vinaya Studies - Bhikkhu Sujato
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2013, 03:22:29 PM »
Bhikkhu Bodhis riskantes raus lehnen und in gewisser Hinsicht etwas oberflächlich, wobei es eben auch einen Schlüssel enthält der gut machbar ist und viele vereint. Ob man es sieht, oder sich doch lieber an der Kontroverse nähren und versorgen möchte? Tja, die Hungrigen regieren die Welt und manchmal jene die sagen, das sie Hunger stillen können...

Can the Theravada Bhikkhuni Order be Re-established?
A Response by
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi

This article was written in response to a statement issued by the Concise Tripitaka Editorial Board and published in the Daily News (Colombo) on March 29, 2012, under the heading: “Can the Theravada Bhikkhuni Order be Re-established?” The Board, expressing the viewpoint of the Mahanayaka Theras (the chief elders of the Buddhist monastic establishment in Sri Lanka) offered a negative answer to this question, but the author takes a different point of view. He contends not only that the Theravada Bhikkhuni Order can be re-established, but that it has already been re-established and that, by taking a liberal attitude, the ordination can be regarded as valid.

The main legal objection the Mahanayaka Theras raise against a revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha stems from the fact that the Vinaya holds that women are to be ordained by both the Bhikkhuni Sangha and the Bhikkhu Sangha. In their view, to be a purely Theravada ordination it must also come from an existing Theravada Bhikkhuni Sangha. This leads to a predicament. In the absence of an existing Theravada Bhikkhuni Sangha, a legitimate Theravada Bhikkhuni ordination cannot be granted, and since, in their view, there is no existing Theravada Bhikkhuni Sangha, they conclude that “setting up a Bhikkhuni Order cannot be done under the Dharmavinaya.”

It is just this conclusion that I wish to contest. The first step in doing so is to note that Theravada Vinaya theory often merges stipulations that stem from the canonical Vinaya and Commentaries with interpretations and assumptions that have gained currency through centuries of tradition. I do not want to undervalue tradition, for it represents the accumulated legal expertise of generations of Vinaya specialists. However, we also must remember that tradition should not be placed on a par with the canonical Vinaya or even the secondary authorities, the Vinaya Commentaries.

We can illustrate this point with an analogy from geometry. If we draw a straight line through a point and extend the line, the distance between its two ends increases and it seems logical to hold that the two ends will never meet. But this is so only because we are thinking in the framework of Euclidean geometry. If we adopt the standpoint of spherical geometry, we can see that a continuous line drawn on a sphere eventually winds back on itself. Thus, if I break away from my familiar assumptions, a new range of possibilities suddenly opens up.

The same applies to the Mahanayakas’ position regarding the possibility of bhikkhuni ordination. It is based on implicit assumptions. The two assumptions behind their position are: (1) the dual-Sangha ordination was intended to apply under all circumstances without exception; (2) the Theravada is the only Buddhist school that preserves an authentic Vinaya lineage stemming from the Buddha. These two assumptions are only traditional beliefs without canonical support. Both can be challenged by making two contrary stipulations.

The first is that under exceptional circumstances the Bhikkhu Sangha alone can ordain women as bhikkhunis, based on the Buddha’s statement: “I allow you, bhikkhus, to ordain bhikkhunis.” This allowance was never rescinded by the Buddha. The legitimacy of ordination by bhikkhus alone, when a Theravada bhikkhuni sangha does not exist, was recognized—even advocated—by no less a figure than the original Jetavan Sayadaw of Burma, one of the most learned monks of the twentieth century, the meditation master of the famous Mahasi Sayadaw (I have translated the text from Pali into English). [1]

The second stipulation is intended to preserve the form of a dual-Sangha ordination. It holds that the Theravada Bhikkhu Sangha can collaborate with a Bhikkhuni Sangha from an East Asian country such as Taiwan in conducting a dual-Sangha ordination. The Mahanayaka Theras think that what the Chinese Buddhists confer is a Mahayana ordination, but this is a misunderstanding. While Chinese monks and nuns for the most part follow Mahayana Buddhism, the Vinaya tradition they observe is not a Mahayana Vinaya but the Vinaya of the Dharmaguptakas, an early Buddhist school that prevailed in northwest India. The Dharmaguptakas also originated from the Asokan missions and belonged to the same Vibhajjavada tradition to which the Theravada school belongs.

The Bhikkhuni Sangha that has recently sprung up in Sri Lanka derives from a grand ordination held at Bodhgaya in February 1998, conducted under the auspices of Taiwanese Buddhist elders working in collaboration with Sri Lankan elders. First the grand ordination ceremony assembled bhikkhus from several countries and traditions—mainly Taiwanese and Sri Lankan—along with Taiwanese and Western bhikkhunis to serve as the Bhikkhuni Sangha. The women who were ordained included Theravada ten-precept nuns from Sri Lanka and Nepal, as well as Western nuns following Tibetan Buddhism. A full dual-ordination was conducted in accordance with the Dharmagupta Vinaya tradition. In Vinaya terms the women that were ordained became full-fledged bhikkhunis inheriting the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya lineage.

To make them heirs to the Theravada Vinaya lineage, the Sri Lankan bhikkhus took the newly ordained bhikkhunis to Sarnath and conferred on them another ordination based on the Pali Vinaya Pitaka. This ordination did not negate the earlier dual-ordination received from the Chinese Sangha but supplemented it, inducting the bhikkhunis into the Theravada Vinaya lineage. This procedure was very similar to the dalhikamma often given in Sri Lanka to allow bhikkhus from one Nikaya to change over to another Nikaya or to join another monastic community.

It may be of interest to note that while the Concise Tripitaka Editorial Board ends by quoting Venerable Madihe Paññasiha Mahanayaka Thera to support its repudiation of bhikkhuni ordination, the Ven. Paññasiha’s close disciple, the late Ven. Dhammavihari, a Vinaya scholar, came to recognize the validity of bhikkhuni ordination late in his life and defended it at the 2007 conference in Hamburg. Thus different views are possible even between close colleagues in the Sangha.

As I see it, the Vinaya itself cannot be read in a fixed manner as either unconditionally permitting or forbidding a revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha. It yields these conclusions only as a result of interpretation, which often reflects the attitudes of the interpreters and their framework of assumptions. In my opinion, in dealing with this issue, the question that should be foremost in our minds is this: "What would the Buddha want his elder bhikkhu-disciples to do in such a situation, now, in the twenty-first century?" Would he want us to apply the regulations governing ordination in a way that excludes women from the fully ordained renunciant life, so that we present to the world a religion in which men alone can lead the life of full renunciation? Or would he instead want us to apply the Vinaya in a way that is kind, generous, and accommodating, thereby offering the world a religion that truly embodies principles of justice and non-discrimination?

The answers to these questions are not immediately given by any text or tradition, but I don’t think we are left entirely to personal opinion either. We can see in the texts how the Buddha displayed both compassion and rigor in setting up the Vinaya. We can also see how, in laying down rules for the Sangha, he took account of the expectations of lay people in the wider society. In working out a solution to our own problem, therefore, we have these two guidelines to follow. One is to be true to the spirit of the Dhamma. The other is to be responsive to the social, intellectual, and cultural ideals of people in the present period of human history.

Looked at in this light, the revival of a Theravada Bhikkhuni Sangha can be seen as an intrinsic good that conforms to the spirit of the Dhamma, helping to fulfill the Buddha's own mission of opening "the doors to the Deathless" to everyone, women as well as men. At the same time, the existence of a Bhikkhuni Sangha allows women to make a meaningful contribution to Buddhism as preachers, scholars, meditation teachers, and also as counselors and guides to women lay followers. A Bhikkhuni Sangha will also win for Buddhism the respect of people in the world, who regard the absence of gender discrimination as the mark of a truly honorable religion in harmony with the worthy trends of present-day civilization.

- End Notes -

Da ist übrigens eine solche Misch-Frauensangha aus Theravada und den Taiwanesischen Bhikkhunis, im nicht ohne Grund noch bescheiden (und hoffentlich so bleibenden) Land der Khmer.
Aber bitte nicht den an den Hungernden sich ernährenden erzählen. Sie wurden sich nur einen Lebensunterhalt daraus machen. Auch nicht den Frauenhunger ernährenden. Aber vielleicht jenen, die eine Gelegenheit nützen könnten. So etwas vergeht immer schnell, vor allem wenn die Hungrigen einbrechen.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 03:31:26 PM by Johann »
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Offline Kusaladhamma

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2014, 09:07:29 AM »
Habe heute entdeckt, dass das Buch

Die Vorschriften für die buddhistische Nonnengemeinde im Vinaya-Pitaka der Theravādin
von Ute Hüsken online zu lesen ist.

Besser geht kaum noch, was das Bhikkhuni Regelwerk angeht.


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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 01:13:41 AM »
Danke für das teilen des. Scheint ein download zu sein, der eine Anmeldung erfordert. Kann die Bedingungen gerade nicht einsehen, da schlechte Verbindung. Ist vielleich einen Link oder mehr in der Bibliothek wert, dass man es auch später leichter wiederfindet.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2014, 08:10:46 AM »
Habe diese Tage zum ersten mal das Bhikkhuni Patimokkha etwas betrachtet und Attma "freut" sich, mit gewissen Punkten aus erster Hand sozusagen Dinge vielleicht verständlicher und vertrauenswürdiger teilen zu können. Um so einige Statements verständlicher zu machen, möchte Attma hier aufzeigen, dass es gegenüber dem Bhikkhu Patimokkha vier weiter "Zum Fall bringende Regeln" gibt:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

7. Should any bhikkhunī follow a bhikkhu who has been suspended by a united Community (of bhikkhus) in line with the Dhamma, in line with the Vinaya, in line with the teacher's instructions, and who is disrespectful, has not made amends, has broken off his friendship (with the bhikkhus), the bhikkhunīs are to admonish her thus: "Lady, that bhikkhu has been suspended by a united Community in line with the Dhamma, in line with the Vinaya, in line with the teacher's instructions. He is disrespectful, he has not made amends, he has broken off his friendship. Do not follow him, lady."

And should that bhikkhunī, thus admonished by the bhikkhunīs, persist as before, the bhikkhunīs are to rebuke her up to three times so as to desist. If while being rebuked up to three times she desists, that is good. If she does not desist, then she also is defeated and no longer in affiliation for being "a follower of a suspended (bhikkhu)." (§¶•) [1]

1. The syntax of this rule allows for two interpretations of the phrase, "with the Dhamma, with the Vinaya, with the teacher's instructions." BD, BN, and N all take it as connected with the phrase, "disrespectful, has not made amends, has broken off his friendship" thus: "he is disrespectful, has not made amends, has broken off his friendship with the Dhamma, with the Vinaya, with the teacher's instructions." I, however, follow the Commentary in connecting it with the term "suspended." An argument for ignoring the Commentary here might be that its interpretation does not follow normal sentence order. An argument for following it would be that (1) the formal legal language of training rules sometimes deviates from normal sentence order and (2) the word "disrespectful," for one, takes the locative case for its object, not the instrumental, which is used here. With regard to point (1), the word order in the relevant sentence might be explained by the fact that there was a need to separate "Community," also in the instrumental, from the instrumentals in the phrase "in line with the Dhamma," etc.
There is also a good practical reason to follow the Commentary here, in that if the Community of bhikkhus acting in unity suspended the bhikkhu in question in a transaction that was not in line with the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the teacher's instructions, then there is no good reason that the bhikkhunī following him should be subject to this rule.

The reason becomes clear, if one knowns the mind and the fact, that there is nothing more destructive for a brother or siterhood, than the impact of the other gender. One can find the dhammic reson for its danger in a natural community, when reflecting the matter in ones own mind. Summary can be found in the first Sutta of AN .

So to keep Sangha alive and actable, one needs to put any effort into it, to make the head as good as possible united and aactable as it is not possible, can not be, that the tree grows further when its trunk is rotten. Only if the trunk is firm, a branch will grow and last. So to walk a selfish Buddhism 2.0 or Devatatta-Dhamma way, a gender ignoring solution, is not only meaningless for the branch it self if it consumes energy to defelope leaves rather than to abstain from it to give the trunk achance to reestablish, as it will fall with the trunk, but also but further destructive nurishment into the generally already very sick trunk.

So if somebody is wise and has faith in the teachers advice, he/she might upstain from walk a single way but but the material left by austerity into the protection and welfare of the trunk. Of course the root is the Buddha and the Dhamma, but to reach it there have to be the trunk and a secound trunk, direktly connected with the roots, might exist under grass and lower plants, but not under benefical hardwood trees.

There is also a nice and teacherous short Khmer story about two bufallows and the tricky rabbit, which might make the danger with such undertakings better visible:  Der zahme Büffel und der wilde Büffel

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2015, 07:40:41 AM »
Quote from: versendung der engaged Buddhisten in Hamburg
Montag, 29. Dezember 2014 um 23:34 Uhr
 "Carola Roloff" <>

 Unterstützung der Nonnenordination

Liebe Alle,

es wäre sehr hilfreich, wenn möglichst viele von Euch diese vom Internationalen Netzwerk Engagierter Buddhisten lancierte Unterschriftenkampagne unterstützen könnten:

Mit herzilchem Gruß und kommt gut ins Neue Jahr

Carola-- Dr. Carola Roloff Senior Researcher / Leitende Wissenschaftlerin im Bereich Buddhismus, Schwerpunkt Dialogische Theologie und Gender Universität Hamburg, Akademie der Weltreligionen Von-Melle-Park 8, 20146 Hamburg, Germany Tel. +49 (0)40 42838-7768, Fax: +49-(0)40-42838-3441 Mobil: +49 (0)172-900-8989 ----

wenn auch Sie lieber fordern und erwuenschen, anstelle sich mit dem kern von rechtersichtweise zu beschaeftigen und einfach an den ursachen von guten fruechten arbeiten wollen, wenn auch sie sich wege erklicken und ihre welk erwuenschen wollen,ist dies vielleicht ein zugang zum gemeinsamen raunzen und jammern nach begierden.

moegen sie wie immer in erfuellung gehen und wenn gar der rechtschaffende weg zu fruechten gesehen wird. Viel erfolg jenen mit reinem herz und moege ihnen diese andere weise nicht im wege stehen. moege man die unterschiede auch im nebel sehen.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 07:50:00 AM by Johann »
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Antw:Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2015, 07:51:49 PM »
Hero-ism around the topic. Don't let your self fall into vedana (or vendanear, like Khmer people would say, if somebody get really into troubles and pain out of grasping and attachment)

Quote from: Sujato’s Blog
The Imaginariums of the Nuns: Days That Are Past and Futures That May Yet Be

Here’s the paper I presented at the recent Sakyadhita conference in Yogyakarta. It may be the last piece of writing I publish for a while, so enjoy.

Nuns exist only in the imagination. When I close my eyes, and focus on what is real, there are no nuns there. Nor, for that matter, are there any monks, or lay people, or anyone else. So if we are to talk about any of these kinds of people, we are telling a story—a story that has some relation to fact, we hope, but where the facts are filled in with copious amounts of imagination.

We imagine a past and call it “history.” We imagine a future and call it “vision.” We imagine the present and call it “reality.” Or, to be sadder but more accurate, in Buddhism we mostly just imagine a past and say that’s “the way it is,” and we never imagine any future at all.

But if we are to have a future, it will be a future with nuns, and specifically with bhikkhunīs. The alternative is to let Buddhism be owned by the patriarchs, who coopted the Dhamma, used it to accumulate power, prestige, and real estate, and who hang on to these things even as they fade away into irrelevance. But this is no future at all. There is tremendous vitality and energy within the Buddhist world, we can see it in so many ways everywhere we look. And none of it, none of the spark, the renewal, the creation of possible futures, is happening within the halls of the patriarchs.

I became interested in the bhikkhunī issue when I noticed, as many people do, that most of the people who come to learn and practice Dhamma are women. Why is this so? One patriarch in Thailand, so I heard, said it was because all the dedicated men have ordained as monks. Ridiculous; the same phenomenon is seen everywhere, in places where there are few monastics of any sort; and anyway, it’s the same in other religions as well.

I asked a man at my former monastery in Thailand, and he said, “It’s because the men are working hard and have no time to come to the monastery.” “Funny,” I thought, “I always seem to see women working hard in the villages and men lounging around all day.”

So I did something very few monks ever seem to think of: I asked a woman for her opinion. She said, “It’s because the men prefer to go gambling, drinking, and whoring while their wives are at the temple.”

Tempting as it is, I don’t think that’s really the answer either. These are just imaginariums: worlds we live in that we build from our own thoughts and ideas. These worlds have some relation to the facts, but they are flexible and uncertain.

In my own imaginarium, the real reason why most spiritual seekers are women is because they are disempowered. It is because the opportunities for them in other spheres of life have been successively blocked or restricted. In addition to the absolute barriers of overtly sexist cultural constructs, there is the more subtle, pervasive, and ultimately more damaging “soft sexism,” which does not actually stop women from doing anything, but adds a grit to whatever women do, slowing them down, and making everything more work than it needs be. Everything is harder for women than it is for men.

So, they end up turning inwards. Let go of the external: you’ll never change it anyway, right? Change yourself, that’s the real Dhamma anyway.

Last year we had a series of sutta discussions in Sydney and invited a panel of young people to help out. One of the guys was seriously manspacing. You know what I mean: men taking up too much space—an unconscious assertion of male privilege. One of the women politely asked him to restrain himself, as it was seriously difficult for them to fit at the table. One of the other women jumped in and said, “Shouldn’t we just take this as a practice and let it go?” This is an example of how patriarchy gets internalized and women become its best defenders. Meanwhile, the guy did shrink his space—by about an inch or two. He was still taking up twice as much space as the women, apparently oblivious to the fact, even when it was pointed out. And the women exhausted their energies on the issue by disagreeing with each other. This is how the patriarchy wins.

When we talk about Buddhist history, we talk about what we imagine. The facts, such as they are, are barely relevant. A patriarch once said to me that we can’t have bhikkhunīs, because “It’s been like this since the beginning”.

When I started working on this issue, I took this attitude as a challenge and investigated the history of bhikkhunīs. Like others before me and since, I found that this simply was not the case. In the beginning, there were bhikkhunīs. There were also bhikkhunīs when Buddhism went to Sri Lanka and, according to our oldest records (the Sri Lankan vinaya commentaries, found in both Pāli and Chinese), there were bhikkhunīs when Buddhism was founded in Suvarnabhūmi (Myanmar/Thailand). But when I tried to bring these and many other findings to the attention of monks, I was disappointed to find they were not very interested. Patriarchs are proud of their history and try to maintain everything exactly as they imagine it was. When the facts at our disposal disagree with these imaginations, they are brushed aside. The past is not a reality; it is just another imaginarium.

I was very naïve. I thought that if the monks could learn about the situation, we would respond in an informed, compassionate manner. How wrong I was! What struck me was how little reason there was in the discussion, and how much energy. Whenever bhikkhunīs were mentioned, otherwise reasonable men came up with all kinds of absurd, irrational statements, pushed by a palpable psychic force: a compulsive need to deny the reality of bhikkhunīs at all costs. Many of the patriarchs are, it seems, quite willing to destroy themselves and their religion in order to deny bhikkhunīs.

I wrote a book about these things and I called it White Bones Red Rot, Black Snakes. It is the longest and most complex thing I have ever written or probably ever will write. I like it, but I think hardly anyone has read it. It’s a book about myth, about magic, about taboo, about bodily fluids, about imagination, and about darkness—all things that do not sit easily with how we like to think about Buddhism. But the gist of the book is simple. I’ll summarize it point by point, so you don’t have to read the whole thing. (But you should. It has very nice pictures.)

    How we think about bhikkhunīs in the present is conditioned (not determined!) by how Buddhists thought about bhikkhunīs in the past;
    How bhikkhunīs were thought of in the past is part of how women were thought of in the past;
    How women were thought of in the past includes dark and bright aspects; and
    All this happens in the minds of men.

If we are to imagine a future, then there are many things it may be, but one thing it must be is fully human. We can no longer let half of humanity arrogate the Dhamma to itself. The future of the Dhamma is human, and that is all of us.

The sight of a monastic is one of humanity’s most recognizable, powerful, and durable symbols. It was the sight of a monastic—the robes, the shaven head, the bowl—that inspired the bodhisatta, Prince Siddhartha, to go forth from home to homelessness, in the hope of putting an an end to suffering. Probably each of us has had a similar experince of this symbol. I have a very old, very dim memory—just a half-grasped echo—of a nun, a Buddhist nun, on a television show, probably Australian ABC, probably a documentary made in the 1970s. That is my earliest image of a Buddhist monastic. I don’t know who she was, but thank you: your image was mysterious, challenging, and haunting. You made a difference.

Monastics bear these signs externally. And that, for men anyway, is very easy. You can go to Thailand, show up at any of 1,000 monasteries, and get ordained this weekend. No problems, no questions. You’re a bhikkhu and you are the genuine heir to the Dhamma—or at least that’s how a male monastic’s external image is perceived. Inside, of course, is another matter.

This is an area where women are the experts. Women are used to being judged and judging on appearances. Femininity is a performance, to be beholden and to be criticized, by men and women. If you are a human being who happens to be female, becoming a monastic is a decision to stop the performance of femininity. For monks, whose monasticism is also a performance, this is not easy to accept.

Mahākassapa sometimes doesn’t get have such a good reputation when it comes to women’s issues. He comes across as a bit of a grumpy old monk who doesn’t think too much of women. One of the many pleasant surprises I came across while writing White Bones Red Rot Black Snakes was that his story, as imagined by the Buddhist community, reveals a powerful and moving insight into how femininity is performed

To be very brief, when Mahākassapa was a young man, his family wanted him to marry. But he didn’t want to, so he set an impossible task for himself. He made a beautiful statue of gold of the perfect women and he said he would only marry a woman who looked like that. Well, that was no easy matter, but messengers set out across the country, exhibiting the statue in markets and town squares. Nowhere could they find a woman so beautiful. One day, an old nursemaid came up to the statue and gave it a slap, thinking it was Bhaddā Kāpilānī, the daughter of her family, who apparently matched this ideal image. And so the marriage was arranged. Bhaddā, it turned out, was no more interested in marriage that the young man was. The two exchanged letters, but the letters were intercepted and destroyed by their families. (Notice that both were equally literate.) The two were married, but agreed to live a chaste life, with a garland of flowers lain between them in bed. When the time came, they went forth and both became arahants.

There is an interesting coda to this idealized love story. The story is found, so far as I know, only in a Tibetan source. Even as a nun, Bhaddā was so stunning that when she went to the village for alms, she had to endure the catcalls of men. So on her life’s journey, she was joined to Mahākassapa, because of her appearance. She was all image, like a statue. Through her connection with him, in a relation of mutual support and respect, they both found a path to a truer inner reality. She let go of her image and consciously chose the external signs of a renunciant to announce her inward journey. Yet the men making catcalls did not respect her choice any more than the patriarchs today respect the choices of women. When Mahākassapa heard about this, he offered to help. “Stay, Bhaddā,” he said. “You shouldn’t have to put up with this. I will collect alms for you.” Here we have, so far as I know, the first time in history that a man helped a woman deal with sexual harassment in the workplace.

Ask people who work in the field of development and they will tell you that the key to prosperity in any country is empowering women. A Google image search for “meditation” yields images mostly of women. (The images are usually white, slim, pretty young women, signaling that meditation has a diversity problem. But that’s a topic for another time.) It is obvious that if the future of Buddhism is to take a healthy form, it will include women.

We can continue to imagine a past where there were no women, or where women were content to offer food and wash robes for the monks. And we can long for a future where this simple, reassuring bit of fantasy is the only reality. But this future will never exist.

In our minds now, the future has the same dreamy haze as the imagined past. The difference is this: In every moment, that dreamy haze collides with the reality of the present. We’re tumbling headlong into a future and our dreams are constantly being exposed in the pitiless light of day. If we imagine a past where women are forever the lesser and the “other,” we’re in for a bumpy ride. But if we imagine a past where humanity is lived, in all its depravity and glory, then maybe we can start to imagine a future for Buddhism that is living.

History is on our side. We don’t have to do much of anything, just stay the course. The day of the patriarchs is over. But there is one thing that, more than anything else, can derail the future for nuns. And that is if the nuns start acting like the patriarchs.

We—and here I mean the monks who have supported the nuns—have given everything so that women can live as fully ordained nuns. To do so, we received no support from our peers and we have had to go against the power structures and hierarchies of our respective orders.

We are happy to do that, because we know that those hierarchies are not the Dhamma. They are not vinaya. In large measure, in fact, they are the exact opposite of the Dhamma and the vinaya. The notion that the sangha should be governed by a politically appointed hierarch, authorized by an act of Parliament, and imposing his will on the sangha, is a feudal system of governance that was reinvented in modern times. Yet in recent months, we have seen monks in Thailand—even so-called “forest” monks—marching on the streets of Bangkok to protect their right to be governed by a feudal hierarchy.

The vinaya as taught by the Buddha is all about collective ownership, decision making by consensus, and the rule of principle. No monastic has the power of command over any other. All monastics must participate in important decisions. It is the sangha, and the sangha alone, that has the power when it comes to making decisions in accordance with the vinaya. The vinaya gives nuns the power to choose their own destiny: to make their own decisions, to build their own monasteries, to run their own communities, and to do their own teaching.

Buddhist nuns now have a once-in-a-lifetime chance to do away with the feudal hierarchies. Don’t choose hierarchy over vinaya. Don’t choose to let this happen, and then, when it doesn’t work out, undermine your own authority by asking monks to fix it.

Let’s be clear: top-down hierarchies do not work. They create dysfunctional, sclerotic, out-of-touch institutions. In countries like Thailand, people talk of the need to reform the sangha hierarchies. But reform is what is done to correct something that is basically okay and needs to be improved. What the hierarchies need is not reform, but abolition. They’re dead weight. Get rid of them and Buddhism will be much better off.

This why the Buddha deliberately set up his sangha: to undermine hierarchy, by rejecting the preeminence of the brahmins and the nobility, by empowering every single member of his sangha. Let the Buddha’s sangha be your sangha, and let the Buddha’s vinaya be your vinaya. Hierarchies serve only the desires of men to control real estate and other worldly assets. In Buddhism, vitality comes from those who reject the hierarchies and work outside them.

Let me leave you with one of my favorite lines from the pātimokkha:

   evam samvaddhā hi tassa bhagavato parisā yadidam aññamaññavacanena aññamañña-vutthāpanena

    For this is how there comes to be growth in the Buddha’s following, that is, with mutual admonishment and mutual rehabilitation.

    Pali bhikkhuni saṅghādisesa 16, bhikkhu saṅghādisesa 12.

Watch out for the comments and let it be your object, your reason to feel or better practice metta for many of them.
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Offline Johann

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Antw:Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2015, 03:21:58 PM »
Das findet Atma besonders nett und so unvoreingenommen, und so entschlossen... zielstrebing die Handleswahre auf Suttacentral einbauen, der eine eine Spende, der andere sein Kloster, der dritte einen Lebensunterhalt... und das nennen wir dann auch noch Leere, wenn das nicht eine leere Lehre ist:

Buddhistische Gesellschaft Hamburg e.V.
 mit Ayya Vimala
SUÑÑATA (Hinabsteigen in die Leerheit)
Ayya Vimala bietete die besondere Gelegenheit, diese selten gelehrte Meditation näher zu erfahren. Das „Hinabsteigen in die Leerhei“ wird in der Cūlasuññata Sutta (MN 121) beschrieben.
SEMINAR SAMSTAG  04.07.   |   9.00 - 18.00 UHR
Samaneri Vimala wurde 1967 in Holland geboren. Sie studierte Geophysik und Betriebswirtschaft und wurde später Managerin des Dhamma Pajjota Zentrums, des belgischen Meditationszentrums der Goenka-Tradition. 2008 und 2009 ordinierte sie als Sayalay Vimala im The Pyu Tawye bei Yangon für jeweils einen Monat und beschloss dann, die Robe dauerhaft zu nehmen.
2012 wurde sie in Anenja Vihara in Deutschland zur Anagarika ordiniert, ging dann nach
Australien und lebte im Santi Waldkloster. Am 18. Februar 2014 wurde sie zur Samaneri

Ihr Traum ist es, eines Tages in Europa ein Kloster für Nonnen in Ajahn Brahms Tradition zu haben. Sie ist Gründungsmitglied von Samita ASBL, eines Vereins mit dem Ziel, ein Kloster in Europa aufzubauen.
Veranstaltungsort: Buddhistische Gesellschaft Hamburg e.V.
Beisserstraße 23 | 22337 Hamburg
Anmeldung bitte unter Tel.: (040) 631 36 96 |
Weitere Informationen und Wegbeschreibung:
Das Seminar ist für Anfänger und Fortgeschrittene geeignet.
Es wird um eine angemessene Spende gebeten.

Wie die Dinge alle laufen, wenn man ein bisschen weltliches Management hineinsteckt und "Hey, wir alle müssen von irgend etwas leben".

Was für eine Geschichte die Romane füllen wird

Da kann man sich schon mal zusammenrechnen, wieviel an Abbruchskosten es ausmachen wird, wolle man jemals all diese Dinge der Vinaya entsprechnend, für eine Sangha nutzen.

Es mag hier verständlich sein, daß natürlich Laien auch nicht wirklich Dana gelernt haben, wie auch, handeln ihre Lehrer doch auch, wenn sie sich darin ver-üben, stets mit Plan und ver-gütetem Ziel.

Resüme: Dem kundengerechten Buddhismus 2.0 steht überhaupt nichts mehr im Wege.
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Antw:Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2015, 02:30:04 PM »
"It is our right, our heritage, to lead a fully monastic life. We are on the right side of history," says Chatsumarn Kabilsingh, an author, former university professor and the first bhikkhuni in Thailand from the Theravada branch of Buddhism, which is dominant in Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka. Using her religious name of Venerable Dhammananda, she contends that the Buddha 2,500 years ago built the religion as a four-legged stool — monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen — but "we are now sitting on just three legs."

What a worthless person, what a tear in robes... It would be righteous, not even claim, if people would put those "I have a right" monastics a portion of excrement into their bowl. It's unbelievable how those people can act. Not only that they destroy there own way, cut them of in this very present life form any attainments, they are dear enough to destroy not only countries but the whole heritage.

Quote from: ??
"We must wait," she says. "Slowly but surely it will come."

What a hymn of disrespect and deceitful approach in regard of the Tripple Juwels. Nothing but worthless. "Wie der Herr, so's G'scher."

No need to worry, it comes out of the same house, its one smell that takes over the world:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 02:38:52 PM by Johann »
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2017, 04:34:46 PM »
Jetzt kommt Fartwind auf und Gelegenheit vielleicht in den Lehrreden des nächsten Buddhas selbst vorzukommen, wenn Sie sich einbringen wollen.

Gut kann man es aber auch als Antrieb für das Entwickeln von Samvega verwenden, was, im Hinblick auf "Lebewesen sind Erben ihrer Taten" sicherlich das klügere ist.

Wie immer, wenn solche Rückenflossen der mächtigen AGs und taktischen Verbindungen auftauchen, möchte meine Person, in vertretbaren Rahmen, jeder Ihrer persönlichen Spekulationen Raum für Erwartungen und Hoffnung geben, und vertraut darauf, daß die letzten Mitglieder der Sangha des Buddhas, aufgrund deren tiefen Vertrauens, ihrer Einsicht, im Schutz der Tradition der Noblen und den gegebenen Regeln, ungestört und gelassen ihr Ziel persönlich erreichen.

For those of you in Germany: if you happen to go to the Theravada AG

 conference in Frankfurt this weekend, please let me know because I’d love to meet up with you!
I will be giving a presentation about SuttaCentral on Saturday 30th at 8.30 am, followed by a presentation by myself, Ayya Kathrin @vimalanyani and Anagarika @sabbamitta about our work at Samita and the establishment of the new monastery in Belgium

[Für jene in Deutschland: Solltes du (ihr) die Theravada AG Konferenz diese Wochenende in Frankfurt besuchen, laß es mich bitte wissen, denn es ist mir ein Begehren dich (euch) zu treffen.

Ich werde eine Präsentation über SuttaCentral am Samstag den 30., um 8:30, gefolgt von einer Präsentation von mir, Ayya Kathrin und Anagarika Sabbamitta, über unsere Arbeit für Samita, und der Etablierung des neuen Klosters in Belgien, halten.]

Veranstaltungsort: Wat Puttabenjapon in Langenselbold - Der Thailändischen Waldklostertradition

We are very happy to announce that Ayya Kathrin Vimalañāṇī’s Bhikkhuni ordination will take place in March 2018 in Los Angeles, with Ayya Gunasari from Mahapajapati Monastery as her preceptor.

[Wir sind sehr glücklich darüber bekannt zu geben, daß Ayya Kathrin Vimalañāṇīs Bhikkhuni-Ordination im März 2018, in L.A., mit Ayya Gunasari, aus dem Mahapajapati-Kloster, als ihren Einweiser, statt finden wird.]

Thus Tilorien Monastery will soon have two bhikkhunis to support each other in their practice!

[Somit hat das Tiloren-Kloster bald zwei Bhikkunis, um sich gegenseitig in ihrer Praxis zu unterstützen!]

Ayya Kathrin has been a nun for over three years, living and practicing with communities on four continents. May her ordination be an inspiration to her and to many people!

[Ayya Kathrin ist nun seit drei Jahren Nonne, lebend und praktizierend in Kommunen auf vier Kontinenten. Möge ihre Ordination eine Inspiration für sie und viele Leute sein!]

If you would like to support this by making a contribution towards travel costs and other expenses for the ordination, please do so with the account details of the right, mentioning “Ayya Kathrin” in the reference.

[Wenn du dieses mit einem Beitrag.. unterstützen möchtest... (Links, usw. auf der Samia-Seite.

(Dachte die Bekanntmachung auf D&D gesehen zu haben, konnte das Thema gerade dort nicht finden.)

über Ayya Kathrin Vimalañāṇī kam 2011 mit dem Dhamma in Kontakt, als sie ihr erstes Meditationsretreat in einem Goenka-Zentrum in Malaysia besuchte. Damals arbeitete sie als Diplomatin an der Deutschen Botschaft in Kuala Lumpur.

2014 wurde sie von Sayadaw Ottamasara als Sayalay (burmesische 8-Sīla-Nonne) ordiniert. Danach lebte sie in verschiedenen Klöstern in Australien, Asien und Deutschland, um ihre Meditationspraxis zu vertiefen und Pali, Vinaya und die Suttas zu studieren. 2015 erhielt sie Samanerī-Ordination in Australien von Bhante Sujato. Ein halbes Jahr später entschied sie sich, sich einer kleinen Gruppe von wandernden Mönchen, Nonnen und Laien anzuschließen, die an vertiefter Praxis und Suttastudien Interesse hatten und die frühbuddhistische Lebensweise im Alltag umsetzen wollten. Seit Mitte 2016 unterstützt sie Samita ASBL beim Aufbau eines Bhikkhuni-Klosters in Europa.

Ayya Kathrin interessiert sich besonders für die frühbuddhistischen Texte sowie für individuelle Zugänge zur Meditationspraxis.

Dear Dhamma Friends,

So now I have ordained as a Bhikkhunī. I can hardly believe it right now.

[Liebe Dhammafreunde,
Nun also bin ich als Bhikkhuni eingeweiht. Ich kann es gerade noch gar nicht glauben.

I thank it all to the many Bhikkhunīs, Bhikkhus and lay friends, who have supported me all these years and especially to my teacher, Bhante Sujato and my good friend and Samita’s President, Danny Buysse and all those who have donated towards this trip to Los Angeles, including the kind help from the Alliance for Bhikkhunis.

Ich danke all den vielen Bhikkhunis, Bhikkhus und Laienfreunden, und meinem guten Freund und Samitas Präsident, ...

Man mag nun wie man möchte zusammenzählen, klar das da etwas "Chaostheorie" studiert behilflich sein mag, die Details vorauszuspekulieren, wenn man da in denkender Weise vorgeht, wo einem dann spontan ein Lied in den Kopf kommt: "2 x 3 ist... ich hab ein Haus, ein Äffchen und ein Pferd... mach mir die Welt, so wie sie mir gefällt..."

Pippi Langstrumpf gilt als literarisches Vorbild für die Frauenbewegung und den Feminismus, zeigt es doch entgegen tradierten Rollenbildern ein Mädchen, das mit ihrer gesellschaftlich vorgegebenen Geschlechterrolle bricht und „stark, verwegen, ungehemmt, lustig, rebellisch und unbeeindruckt von Autoritäten“ ist. So habe das Buch „Generationen von Mädchen ermuntert, Spaß zu haben und an die eigenen Fähigkeiten zu glauben.“

Aufgrund des rebellischen und nonkonformistischen Verhaltens von Pippi und ihres Umgangs mit Autoritäten werden ihr gelegentlich auch anarchistische Züge zugeschrieben, dementsprechend ist sie auch Bezugspunkt für anarchistische Strömungen. „Eine Rotzgöre im Lumpenlook mit ritzeroten Zöpfen, die in einer maroden Villa haust und sämtliche Autoritäten ignoriert! Pippi ist eine Autonome und Anarchistin, lange bevor die Jahreszahl 1968 eine Bedeutung bekam; auch als Erfinderin des Punk – 40 Jahre vor den Sex Pistols – wird sie gerne bezeichnet.“[19]

...So können Gedanken aufkommen, wenn man Tendenzen zusammen zählen möchte und nicht auf möglich gegenwärtige Momente, und deren Wirkung vertraut.

Wie es in "buddhistische" Kreisen üblich ist, möchte sich meine Person hier auch mit einem "metta"- (hochhaltenden) Gruß, weniger aber sich selbst, jedoch vielleicht einige andere aus der Affäre geleiten wollend, vielleicht sogar zum letzen Mal aus dieser Geschichte verabschieden:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Ich habe gehört, daß der Befreite zu einer Begebenheit nähe Sāvatthī, in Jetas Hain, Anāthapiṇḍikas Klöster verweilte.

Nun, zu dieser Begebenheit verbrachte der Ehrw. Moliya Phagguna zu viel Zeit verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs. Dies ist wie viel Zeit er, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs, verbrachte: Wenn irgend ein Bhikkhu, in seiner Gegenwart, im Tadel über die Bhikkhunīs sprach, würde er verärgert sein, unerfreut, und ein Thema daraus machen. Und wenn irgend ein Bhikkhu über ihn, in der Gegenwart der Bhikkhunīs, im Tadel sprach, würden diese verärgert sein, unerfreut, und ein Thema daraus machen. Dieses ist wie viel er an Zeit, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs, verbrachte.

Ein gewisser Bhikkhu ging zum Befreiten, und mit Ankunft, sich vor ihm verneigt habend, setzte er sich an eine (passende) Seite. Als er dort saß, sprach er zum Befreiten: "Herr, der Ehrw. Moliya Phagguna verbringt zu viel Zeit, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs. Dies ist wie viel Zeit er, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs, verbringt: Wenn irgend ein Bhikkhu, in seiner Gegenwart, im Tadel über die Bhikkhunīs spricht, ist er verärgert, unerfreut, und macht ein Thema daraus. Und wenn irgend ein Bhikkhu über ihn, in der Gegenwart der Bhikkhunīs, im Tadel spricht, sind diese verärgert, unerfreut, und machen ein Thema daraus. Dieses ist wie viel er an Zeit, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs, verbringt.

Dann sprach der Befreite zu einem gewissen Bhikkhu: "Kommt, Bhikkhu. In meinem Namen, ruft Moliya Phagguna, sagend: 'Der Lehrer ruft Euch, Freund Moliya Phagguna."

Erwidernd: "Wie Ihr sagt Herr", zum Befreiten, ging der Bhikkhu zum Ehrw. Moliya Phagguna, und mit Ankunft, sprach er zu ihm: "Der Lehrer ruft Euch, Freund Moliya Phagguna."

Erwidernd: "Wie Ihr sagt, mein Freund", zu dem Bhikkhu, ging der Ehrwürdige Moliya Phagguna zum Befreiten, und mit Ankunft, sich vor Ihm verneigt habend, setzte er sich an eine Seite. Als er dort saß, sagte der Befreite zu ihm: "Ist es wahr, Phagguna, daß Ihr zu viel Zeit, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs, verbringt? Dies ist wie viel Zeit Ihr, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs, verbringt: Wenn irgend ein Bhikkhu, in Eurer Gegenwart, im Tadel über die Bhikkhunīs spricht, seid Ihr verärgert, unerfreut, und macht ein Thema daraus. Und wenn irgend ein Bhikkhu über Euch, in der Gegenwart der Bhikkhunīs, im Tadel spricht, ist sind diese verärgert, unerfreut, und machen ein Thema daraus. Dieses ist wie viel Ihr an Zeit, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs, verbringt."

"Ja, Herr."

"Phagguna, seid Ihr nicht ein Stammesbruder, der aus Überzeugung, aus dem Hausleben, fort in die Hauslosigkeit, gezogen ist?"

"Ja, Herr."

"Es ist nicht passend für Euch, Phagguna, als ein Stammesbruder, der aus Überzeugung aus dem Hausleben, fort in die Hauslosigkeit gezogen ist, daß Ihr zu viel Zeit, verstrickt mit den Bhikkhunīs verbringt. Wenn so, Phagguna, irgend jemand, in Eurer Gegenwart, im Tadel über die Bhikkhunīs spricht, selbst dann solltet Ihr jede Begierde, im Zusammenhang mit dem Hausleben, und jeden Gedanken, im Zusammenhang mit dem Hausleben, ablegen. Und selbst dann solltet Ihr Euch üben: 'Mein Geist wird unberührt sein, und ich werde keine bösen Worte sprechen. Ich werde verständnisvoll gegenüber dieser Persons Wohlsein bleiben, mit einem Geist von Wohlwollen, und mit keinem Inneren Haß.' Das ist wie Ihr Euch selbst üben sollt.

"Und, Phagguna, wenn irgend jemand, in Eurer Gegenwart, den Bhikkhunīs einen Stoß mit der Hand gibt, oder mit einem Stein, oder mir einer Rute, oder mit einem Messer, genau dort, solltet Ihr Begierden, im Zusammenhang mit dem Haushälterleben, und jeden Gedanken, im Zusammenhang mit dem Haushälterleben, ablegen. Und selbst dann solltet Ihr Euch üben: 'Mein Geist wird unberührt sein, und ich werde keine bösen Worte sprechen. Ich werde verständnisvoll gegenüber dieser Persons Wohlsein bleiben, mit einem Geist von Wohlwollen, und mit keinem inneren Haß.' Das ist wie Ihr Euch selbst üben sollt.

"Und, Phagguna, wenn irgend jemand über Euch, in Eurer Anwesenhei, im Tadel spricht, selbst dann solltet Ihr Begierden, im Zusammenhang mit dem Haushälterleben, und jeden Gedanken, im Zusammenhang mit dem Haushälterleben, ablegen. Und selbst dann solltet Ihr Euch üben: 'Mein Geist wird unberührt sein, und ich werde keine bösen Worte sprechen. Ich werde verständnisvoll gegenüber dieser Persons Wohlsein bleiben, mit einem Geist von Wohlwollen, und mit keinem inneren Haß.' Das ist wie Ihr Euch selbst üben sollt.

"Und, Phagguna, wenn irgend jemand Euch einen Stoß mit der Hand gibt, oder mit einem Stein, oder mir einer Rute, oder mit einem Messer, genau dort, solltet Ihr Begierden, im Zusammenhang mit dem Haushälterleben, und jeden Gedanken, im Zusammenhang mit dem Haushälterleben, ablegen. Und selbst dann solltet Ihr Euch üben: 'Mein Geist wird unberührt sein, und ich werde keine bösen Worte sprechen. Ich werde verständnisvoll gegenüber dieser Persons Wohlsein bleiben, mit einem Geist von Wohlwollen, und mit keinem inneren Haß.' Das ist wie Ihr Euch selbst üben sollt.

Dann richtete sich der Befreite an die Bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, wie die Bhikkhu meinen Geist zu befriedigen pflegten! Da war der Fall, Bhikkhus, daß wenn ich die Bhikkhus aufwartete (, sprechend): "Bhikkhus, ich esse ein einziges Mahl (am Tag). Ein einziges Mahl (am Tag) essend, nehme ich so gut wie keine Krankheit wahr, so gut wie keine Betroffenheit, Leichtigkeit, Kraft und einen behaglichen Verbleib. So solltet such Ihr ein einziges Mahl (am Tag) essen. Ein einziges Mahl (am Tag) essend, werdet auch Ihr nahezu keine Krankheit wahrnehmen, nahezu keine Betroffenheit, Leichtigkeit, Kraft und einen behaglichen Verbleib.' Ich hatte keinen Bedarf der Einweisung für dieser Bhikkhus. Ich benötigte nur Achtsamkeit in Ihnen aufzubringen.

"Angenommen da wäre ein Wagen...

Möge das Thema noch lange für jeden Unterhaltung (upādāna) sein, zum Zwecke der Welt, oder Nibbana, was immer man bevorzugen möchte.

Mögen die Opfer, der für den "Erhalt" der Dhamma-Vinaya in dieser Welt, durch Reisenebenerscheinungen, diesen Vassa, passiert sein mögen, gering in ihrer Zahl sein und in guter Fügung die Leiden mit Leichtigkeit überstehen und gute Wiedergeburten finden.

Und die eigenen Gedanken geben aus allem Nahrung für eigene Gedanken:

Quote from: Gabriel
and finally, does that give sotapannas any more freedom regarding the application of monastic rules?

..und zu letzt, gibt das Sotapannas irgend etwas an mehr Freiheit im Bezug auf die Anwendung von klösterlichen Regeln?

To rephrase that question: if what is wholesome is different from what the letter of the rule says, would they act in the wholesome way, or would they - out of reverence for the Buddha or out of social pressure - follow the rule?

Um die Frage umzuformulieren: wenn etwas das heilsam ist, sich von den Wörter, welche die Regeln aussagen, unterscheiden, wüden diese in heilsamer Weise handeln, oder würden sie, aus Respekt vor der Würde Buddhas, oder aus sozialem Druck, der Regel folgen?

I think it’s hard to say and also depends on the specific situation, how much “less wholesome” it would be follow the rule. Most Sotapannas don’t openly declare that they are Sotapannas, so if they start acting in ways that are not in line with the precepts they could be subjected to a lot of criticism.

Es ist schwer zu sagen, und hängt auch von der bestimmten Situationab, wie viel "wenig heilsam" es wäre, der Regel zu folgen. Die meisten Sotapannas erklären nicht öffentlich, daß sie Sotapannas sind. Wenn sie beginnen in Weisen zu handeln, die nicht im Einklang mit den Tugendregeln sind, könnten sie Gegenstand von viel Kritik sein.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 06:30:21 PM by Johann »
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 01:51:24 PM »
If wishing to follow this Dhamma-Vinaya-Ending time event, either to increase samvega or just fall for another hero of the day, after sacrify, you may be good informed here:

Be sure to meet the possible beloved anarcho-s scene .

Although there is nothing more joyful as to see people go forth, it's of no joy if people hardly bound, go forth for their battles against windmills, and see Sanchos believe that those having not lowered their hackles do such for a good.

My may person, like always, be wrong and Samsara and it's drives be a paradies for those bond to it, what ever they might try not seeing the door to escape.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 01:26:23 AM »
Since related:

"As a nun you are not only a pioneer...", right, like many monks merely partisan, revolutionary, loan soldier... outwardly, not even inwardly at all... and for what? Wouldn't it be better to die for Silas?

Please Stop!

As a nun you are not only a pioneer, with much less support than the monks, both spiritually and financially and often don’t have a place to stay. Many monks pretend you don’t exist or treat you like some contageous disease because they fear their own defilements. You are cut off from your male friends because you have the wrong gender. Nuns try to find fault with other nuns for not keeping the rules the way they feel they should be kept out of fear of not being accepted themselves. And lay people often have all kinds of preconceived ideas of what a nun should be like, almost like a picture of perfection, always smiling and happy. But the truth of the matter is that we are just people, and yes, I’m depressed at times too. I don’t always smile and am not always happy. Does that make me a bad nun? Or does it make me human?

Sometimes I envy those monks who can live the monastic life with an inspiring teacher and learn the living Dhamma. I never had that. Most other nuns never had that. Our teacher is the internet. We have to find our own way. And yes, it can be very lonely at times. Even if you are lucky enough to be able to stay near an inspiring monk for a few months, you are never accepted into the community, always kept at a distance; there is always this tension because you are seen as a danger to their monastic life. It it is sometimes hard not to buy into that feeling of inferiority, of feeling you are just not good enough.

I admire all those women, whether they have 8 or 10 precepts or are fully ordained, who have to fight every day to keep in the robes, to battle the depressions and the setbacks, who have no place to stay and no support, because they have the sincere wish to follow the Dhamma. It is not up to me to find fault with the way they keep their rules. Many have to use money or cook for themselves; they just don’t have the support. If I would criticize them for that, I would not be following the Buddha’s teachings. Instead, I should look at their conduct. Do they show compassion and help each other? Do they try to overcome their defilements and pardon each other’s faults, acknowledging that we all want to learn, to develop ourselves? The Vinaya are the guidelines for our practice, not the be-all and end-all of all things. If the Vinaya becomes a cause for anger, resentment and faultfinding, we have lost the way.

So can we please stop faultfinding and criticizing each other and try to develop ourselves in the Dhamma and support each other in that? If somebody has the wholesome intention of ordaining, and at least 10-20 monastics come together to confirm this wholesome intention, should we then try to find fault in all the details of the procedure and accuse that person of not being actually ordained? Should we not stop all this faultfinding and help each other? Is that not the Buddha’s intention? Isn’t it difficult enough to live this monastic life?

The Sangha should be a refuge, we should all help each other, regardless of our gender or our background, regardless of our ordination lineage, regardless of how we interpret the Vinaya, or if we are not ordained at all. We should stop finding fault with each other and putting each other down, but ask ourselves how we can support each other. Life is hard enough.

Oh Ananda...!

Don't you use to touch lay peoole emotional since a long time now? Don't you play with Affection like a politican since a long time for taking a site and personal benefit?

It reminds me of the monk destroying the robe in the middle of the community.

At least such ugly thing happend only within the community and not public.

Seek out for Nissaya. Start a new, at the beginning, if there is reason for it and don't encourage those equal not having basic respect or even worse to walk on and do not improve.

One does not grow when defilements are fondled.

Like sortly a "Silly nun ", having the blessing to have teacher, occasion... prefered not to practice but to entertain lay community. Rebuked to try to get her on the path, not that she wisely considered, she made her taken blog into private... seek for the Sangha, use proper places to work out "troubles" and stay away from dealer and corrupted, those doing you a favor, encourage you even to break Vinaya, steal...

Do you like your daughter, sister fall into the same like you? So then, encourage her to seek for proper Nissaya and to undertake again the test time without laps, for she can ordinate a secound time...!

And don't worry, monk at large are even worse, but since they feel more secure, there absolutly no help for then and they will soon return into houselive or damage themselves till the end.

Maybe basics of what is a friend and what an enemy should be considered wise for it's

"for ones welfare that wise criticize, ask, cross-question..."

A person asking for "please stop to criticize" is not fit, does not approch the training right but simply seeks for a hide for defilement in protection of the Juwels.

You better feel ashamed that you used to break the hearts of the lovers over there, rather to give them a real refuge!

So go on proper and develop some basic faith in kamma and seek not for weak to oppose propably rightly firm and strong, but take refuge into the, the Noble ones.

Children, Bullets

A gun shoots its children — its bullets — outward. We shoot ours inward, into our heart. When they're good, we're shot in the heart. When they're bad, we're shot in the heart. They're an affair of kamma, our children. There are good ones, there are bad ones, but both the good and bad are our children all the same.

When they're born, look at us: The worse off they are, the more we love them. If one of them comes down with polio and gets crippled, that's the one we love the most. When we leave the house we tell the older ones, "Look after your little sister. Look after this one" — because we love her. When we're about to die we tell them, "Look after her. Look after my child." She's not strong, so you love her even more.

Even in wordly relations, when a woman starts to criticize a man, if he is actually one, the relation is broken, and it will be a hard, if she is wise an sees a need, to solve that again, ask for pardon and turn into seclusion for proper time, cuts of with corrupt relations, till rehabilitated after a while.

If not breaking the main rules, althought there is also much danger, there is nothing that can not be fixed in this Dhamma-Vinaya, Brahmacariya.

You foolish "girls", yet like to walk around tudonga at the same time. You not even have an idea of word and Samsara yet, simply mistreaded, wealthy and pride people, not knowing bodily pain but simly the mental pain of desire. Fix the problems according the tread rules of the medicine.

And fis that gender info in your profil, or don't you know you are a woman and not a hermaphrodite? Or are you? Then, in that case, your odination is valid and you need to be expelled.

Got it! The basic rules within the world, to not violate to fix even those for beyound.

It's not that one is well supported, proper supported because he/she is desired to become a "house pig" for traders. Desired on the marked, but by sticking to Vinaya. Why desire to become a house pig?

Don't you know the story of munika the pig , havn't you taken this story, ungiven before? See is it is of use when given.

It is "hoped" that it is seen that your "explosion", the throwing away of the robe and stand naked by breaking the basic rules for woman, is another grave falt.

There are given proper areas and they are open to use for everybody with wisdom or faith, Upanissaya.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 07:44:01 AM by Johann »
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination - Bhikkhuni Einweihung
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 01:37:11 AM »
On being asked about how to support the Nuns, this worthless person says nothing else then to punish the parents, the Buddha, reject the Dhamma, and go for lose for the Sangha.

And even more fools, if doing, give such a worthless ingreatful person ordination (birth).

People get what they what, seek for, and those looking for worse ingreatfull children, those of less and no respect, the greedy, they get the child the long for... that's the wheel of the slaves, the poor... they have no faith in cause and effect, claim and destroy their parents, again and again:

Actively challenge structures that discriminate against nuns. Laypeople have so much more influence on monks than nuns. After all, monks only survive dependent on laypeople as well!  ;) It is well-known that for example a certain famous monk  ;) started supporting bhikkhuni ordination because laywomen kept nagging him (among other factors…). Keep nagging for more equality!

So is it that the fools are bound to each other, grow and increase and dominate the Dhamma ending time.

For whom with a little wisdom, a little faith and trust in cause and effect, would ever support those destructing the Gems, being partisans? Oh yes of cause, those with political interests. Syria is not far and it's not so that things are far for those not simply let go off those not really seeking refuge, but just a way to continue fight. That is why they are more and more kicked out, get no more support: ungrateful, respectless, demanting and with evil selfish desires.

Of course, those not on the level of integrity, how could they discern right? And now the fools even reject the Buddha, his Dhamma-Vinaya, knowing this kind well:

Only for those taking right refuge, a refuge is gained.

By felling envious and by fabricating slander, one only ruins oneself because the wise condemn him as worthless person. And the envious shall fall into woeful abodes in samsara, whereas the envied will not be affected at all. Since issa is an akusala, unwholesome mental factor, everyone should abhor and eliminate it.

    Hogs and the Emerald Cave

    Once upon a time, a big lion has his den in an emerald cave in the Himalayas. Near this cave lived a herd of dogs, and they live in constant fear of the fierce lion. They blamed the emerald glow of the cave for their woe. So they first rolled about in the muddy lake and rubbed the emerald cave with mud. However, the emerald cave grew more and more radiant and shiny. Likewise, those who slander, envy and belittle others, actually get opposite consequences. Only they themselves will suffer from hardship while the other is propelled further into prosperity.

Not easy for the children of divorced parents: "Should I tend to does giving pleasure in the sphere of sense, or to those pulling and provide for beyond and release?"

Mohayana will rule the world, and for you? Up to your upanissayapaccayena, strong condition cases you give. Able to leave home, the world, or seek for it? Leave the giver of sense pleasure?

For those wishing to understand the basics, see also: If willing to help the child, the "poor" the new, give to it's master, father!

Only for those who support proper the Sangha of the Buddha will come near and possible a future way for them selfs. For those being insulting their leader, the Noble Ones, Brahmans and Contemplatives, animal womb, low states hell can be expected. If meeting to gain a human existence, they will be ugly, poor and without honor, small voice. Destinated for singing gospels in the fields.

Some, even born under this cast, nevertheless would still have the potential to make a fundamental change and leave with metta and karuna, filled with mudita and seeing the door refuge not under those incapable tocome anywhere by themselves. Leave the field, task done, of the world behind.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 02:08:38 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann