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Talkbox

2019 Mar 20 19:02:36
Johann: May Nyom have a safe and careful travel, when ever he might do.

2019 Mar 20 18:46:53
Johann: Now, Nyom Moritz and Nyom Sophorn are here in the forest. Atma does not know how long.

2019 Mar 20 18:20:42
Vithou: Nyom Kuna planning to see Moritz and Bong Sophorn as well

2019 Mar 20 18:17:26
Vithou: Nyom Kuna planning to go Phnom Oral on Sunday

2019 Mar 20 18:16:07
Vithou: Nyom Kuna was sick too long after remove kidney stone . ( about 2 months ) and skittle busy with human job

2019 Mar 20 18:13:50
Vithou: Is Moritz and Bong Sophorn at Asram now?

2019 Mar 20 18:12:02
Vithou: Kuna Preah Ang

2019 Mar 20 18:05:01
Johann: Nyom Vithou

2019 Mar 20 12:25:25
Johann: here and now

2019 Mar 20 09:04:34
Cheav Villa: To reach the end of the cosmos to go beyond   _/\_

2019 Mar 20 08:49:03
Johann: Oh.. wrong, here: Rohitassa Sutta

2019 Mar 20 08:45:24
Johann: There is nothing to far that the mind, oneself, could not reach it in the Universe. Yet end of suffering can not found. But it requires to reach the end of the cosmos to go beyound. Lokayatika Sutta

2019 Mar 20 08:14:55
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 20 06:34:16
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុ Vandami Bhante ពីចំងាយ

2019 Mar 20 06:32:27
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 សាធុុ សាធុ សាធុ! ថ្ងៃឧបោសថ ករុណាសូមចូលរួមត្រេកអរដែរ😇🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Mar 20 06:13:30
Johann: Mudita

2019 Mar 20 05:52:37
Cheav Villa: ថ្ងៃឧបោសថ​  :)​ កូណាចូលរួមត្រេកអរដល់សេរីភាពរបស់ពួកគាត់  _/\_

2019 Mar 19 13:56:41
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2019 Mar 19 08:47:34
Johann: Knowing this, one is able to share family (of supporter), honor, dwelling, gains, dhamma, having a clear sense of gratitude.

2019 Mar 19 08:44:19
Johann: And what is the reason of macchariya disapearing? Knowning, remembering, form, sound...ideas are no refuge, not real, not worthy to fall for, not ones own.

2019 Mar 19 08:41:50
Johann: "May macchariya (stinginess) become its needed reduce, so that the goodness of Dhamma may reaches more intensive", is that right translated? Sadhu. Not an easy task althought one might think.

2019 Mar 19 08:07:30
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយមច្ឆរិយ.​ ត្រូវបានកាត់បន្ថយ ដើម្បីគុណធម៌ដែលខ្ពស់ជាង _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 19 01:39:39
Johann: May all have always a good travel, meet each other in best furtune along there ways. May no one get hurt in the traffic after happiness.

2019 Mar 18 10:21:51
Moritz: hello empty yogi _/\_

2019 Mar 18 10:21:23
Moritz: Vandami bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 18 10:21:22
Moritz: Vandami bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 16 08:19:42
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Indannano

2019 Mar 15 04:20:37
Johann: Nyom Buddhi

2019 Mar 14 16:00:28
Cheav Villa: កូណា​ថ្វាយបង្គំ​លា​ សូមព្រះអង្គឆាប់បានសំរាក​  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 14 09:13:11
Kong Sokdina: Hello!

2019 Mar 14 08:35:17
Johann: Nyom Kong Sokdina

2019 Mar 14 08:10:07
Johann: A meritful Sila-day those who observe it today

2019 Mar 13 11:18:19
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 13 09:23:36
Johann: A meritful Sila-day those who observe it today, btw.

2019 Mar 10 02:03:42
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Mar 09 07:45:59
Moritz: Good morning, Cheav Villa _/\_

2019 Mar 07 12:10:15
Cheav Villa: កូណាព្រះអង្គ  _/\_

2019 Mar 07 12:05:44
Johann: My person is not sure but Nyom Chanroths wife might try to go back from PP tomorrow as well, Nyom.

2019 Mar 07 01:21:24
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 07 01:18:59
Johann: May you have a safe and slow travel.

2019 Mar 07 01:10:20
Cheav Villa: ចេញពី​ភ្នំពេញ​នៅម៉ោង5ព្រឹក :)  _/\_

2019 Mar 07 01:09:25
Cheav Villa: ពួកខ្ញុំកូណា និង បង​ភឿន​ នឹងទៅសួរសុខទុក្ខព្រះអង្គនៅថ្ងៃស្អែក

2019 Mar 07 01:08:34
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Mar 07 01:07:32
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 06 03:31:04
Cheav Villa: Have a good day to Master Moritz  _/\_

2019 Mar 06 03:29:38
Moritz: And good night for me. :) Chom reap leah. May all have a good Uposatha _/\_

2019 Mar 06 03:27:51
Moritz: Good morning, Cheav Villa _/\_

2019 Mar 06 03:17:49
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 06 03:05:26
Johann: A self-blessed (by ones deeds) Uposathaday today.

2019 Mar 05 11:33:43
Johann: Nyom Chanroth had to stop the work. To difficult to concentrate today. Good training anyway.

2019 Mar 05 10:20:56
Cheav Villa:  :-\ :D _/\_

2019 Mar 05 05:26:54
Johann: A meritful Uposatha those who observe it today.

2019 Mar 05 03:13:37
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu. Rupam anicca

2019 Mar 05 01:47:58
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាបារម្ភអំពីសុខភាពរបស់ព្រះអង្គពីចំងាយ 🙏🏻ករុណាសូមប្រគេនពរ ព្រះអង្គឆាប់ជាសះស្បេីយ

2019 Mar 05 01:38:52
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាឮថា ព្រះអង្គអាពាធ ជង្គង់ តេីព្រះអង្គបានធូរស្បេីយហេីយឬនៅ?

2019 Mar 05 01:07:09
Ieng Puthy: Good morning ! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ Vandami Bante

2019 Mar 04 14:41:21
Johann: Sukha Chomreoun, Nyom

2019 Mar 04 14:18:03
Moritz: Leaving now. May Bhante have a good day. _/\_

2019 Mar 04 13:45:50
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Mar 04 13:19:43
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 01 16:35:39
Johann: Bhante Indannano  _/\_ How was India in "war times"

2019 Feb 28 11:46:56
Moritz: And good bye again. :) _/\_

2019 Feb 28 11:46:38
Moritz: Vandami, Bhante _/\_

2019 Feb 28 05:25:27
Cheav Villa:   :D_/\_

2019 Feb 28 04:22:46
Johann: 5 o'clock morning  ^-^ (like a taxi driver) may Nyom has well earned and peaceful rest. Mudita.

2019 Feb 28 04:08:09
Moritz: Chom reap leah. I'm going to sleep. _/\_

2019 Feb 28 03:40:13
Johann: Sukha chomreoun Nyom.

2019 Feb 28 03:39:06
Moritz: Vandami, Bhante _/\_

2019 Feb 28 03:35:39
Moritz: Good morning, Cheav Villa _/\_

2019 Feb 27 16:15:42
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Feb 27 14:17:51
Khemakumara: Nyom Villa

2019 Feb 27 14:16:29
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Feb 27 14:11:14
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara. Nyom Villa.

2019 Feb 27 12:54:45
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Feb 27 12:20:30
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Feb 27 03:54:23
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Feb 27 03:40:17
Johann: The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind:     this is the teaching     of the Awakened.

2019 Feb 27 02:18:41
Johann: It's current better but of cause will not heal. Nothing to worry.

2019 Feb 27 01:40:55
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គ​ តើ​ជង្គង់​បា​ន​ធូរស្រាល​ ឬទេ?  _/\_

2019 Feb 27 01:40:09
Cheav Villa: សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Feb 27 01:20:29
Johann: May all do a meritfull Sila-day today

2019 Feb 26 07:35:46
Johann: Nyom Mico

2019 Feb 25 18:22:21
Vithou: :)

2019 Feb 24 15:10:27
Cheav Villa: Hello Master Moritz  _/\_

2019 Feb 24 13:33:34
Moritz: Hello Dmytro and Cheav Villa _/\_

2019 Feb 24 13:13:45
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Feb 24 13:08:42
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Feb 21 03:15:02
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Feb 20 15:56:46
Johann: see here

2019 Feb 20 13:33:02
Cheav Villa: ពូចាន់រ័ត្ន សុំអោយសួរព្រះអង្គ តើម្សិលមិញ រឺ​ម្សិលម្ង៉ៃ​ មានមនុស្ស​ប្រុសម្នាក់ស្រីម្នាក់ ឡើងទៅលើភ្នំ ឬទេ?

2019 Feb 20 13:31:37
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Feb 18 14:34:39
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Feb 18 13:29:24
Moritz: Leaving. May Bhante and all have a good day. _/\_

2019 Feb 18 13:18:25
Moritz: _/\_

2019 Feb 18 09:31:39
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Feb 18 08:19:34
Johann: Where and what to practice?

2019 Feb 18 08:15:08
Johann: Where and when ever good inspired and worthy to give into.

2019 Feb 18 08:14:03
Johann: That place here is not that different, and Nyom did already a lot here. And don't forget: Punna iomething that arises in ones heart, not outwardly.

2019 Feb 18 07:34:01
Cheav Villa: ជាមួយនឹង​ក្រុម​​លោកម្ចាស់​ស្រេង​   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Author Topic: A Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha? Bodhisattva ein Sanghamitglied?  (Read 3951 times)

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Offline Johann

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Hier ein spezielles Here a special

Kann ein Bodhisttva ein Sanghamitglied sein?

Gestern vor dem Einschlafen ist mir diese knifflige und vielleicht provozierende "Frage" in den Geist gekommen. Wenn wir davon ausgehen, daß die Sangha aus den vier Paaren (den acht Personen) besteht, ist es mit großer Wahrscheinlichkeit nicht möglich, daß ein "klassischer" Bodhisattva (so wie es breit erzählt wird - einer der zum Wohle aller Wesen im Samsara verweilt) nie Teil der Sangha werden kann.
Nimmt man Bodhisatta - ein Wesen das nach Befreiung strebt -  ist er/sie im Gegensatz, schon mit diesem Streben als Mitglied der ersten Person (vorausgesetzt er/sie weiß wo nach er strebt) als Teil der noblen Sangha anzusehen.

Sicherlich Stoff für eine ausgiebige Diskussion und Stoff zum nachdenken. Freue mich über eure Gedanken und ev. Erklärungen dazu.


Is it possible that a Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha?

Yesterday bevor I felt asleep a finicky and maybe provocing "question" arose in my mind. If we regard the Sangha containing the four pairs (the eight persons), it seems to be impossible that a classical Bodhisattva (like it is told broadly - someone who desires to dwell in Samsara for the well-being of all beings) might be part of the Sangha.
If we take the Bodhisatta - a Being which strives for liberation - he/she is in the opposite to the first idea within the desire for this already a member of the first person (assumed that he/she knows what he is striving for) and already part of the noble Sangha.

Of course stuff for a huge discussion and stuff to think about. Would be great if you share your thoughts and maybe also an explaining.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 01:03:19 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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The idea of "Bodhisattva Path" was coined by Maitreya-natha in his Bodhisattva-Bhumi, and then imported into Theravada by Dhammapala in his "Treatise on the Paramis".

So the person who follows such a path follows the Maitreya-natha, since Buddha never taught such things. "Bodhisattvism" has nothing to do with following the teaching of a Buddha.

"Bodhisattvas" are historically known to refuse any substantial development of wisdom, since this could make them stream-enterers, bound to achieve Nibbana in seven lives or less, and this wouldn't be sufficient for these "Bodhisattvas" to fulfill their nonsensical wows to save all beings.

Offline Johann

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The idea of "Bodhisattva Path" was coined by Maitreya-natha in his Bodhisattva-Bhumi, and then imported into Theravada by Dhammapala in his "Treatise on the Paramis".

So the person who follows such a path follows the Maitreya-natha, since Buddha never taught such things. "Bodhisattvism" has nothing to do with following the teaching of a Buddha.

"Bodhisattvas" are historically known to refuse any substantial development of wisdom, since this could make them stream-enterers, bound to achieve Nibbana in seven lives or less, and this wouldn't be sufficient for these "Bodhisattvas" to fulfill their nonsensical wows to save all beings.

Die Idee eine "Bodhisattva Pfades" wurde durch Matitreya-natha und seinem Bodhisattva-Bhumi gepräget und dann von Dhammapala mit seiner "Abhandlung über die Paramis" in den Theravada importiert.

Eine Person, die solch einem Pfad folgt, folgt dem Maitreya-natha Pfad, da Buddha niemals solche Dinge lehrte. "Bodhisattanismus" hat nicht mit dem folgen der Lehren Buddhas zu tun.

"Bodhisattvas" sind historisch bekannt, jede Art der handfesten Entwicklung von Weisheit abzulehnen, da dies sie zu Stromerreichern machen könnte und sie daran binden würde innerhalb von sieben Existenzen oder weniger Nibbana zu erreichen und dies wurde diesen Bodhisattvas nicht ausreichen, ihren Sinnloses Gelübte alle Wesen zu retten, zu erfüllen.


Danke für die geradlinige Antwort, würde ich auch so sehen, wenn gleich man etwas vorsichtig sein muß, da wir (der eine oder andere) in gewisser Weise auch alle noch Bodhisattvas sind und von der Welt noch nicht loslassen. Wir hätten ja wenig zu tun, unsere Sachen wären alle getan, wäre das nicht die liebe "Buddhanatur".

Ich denke, daß man das Thema etwas genauer behandeln muß, dreht sich ja heute im "Buddhismus" alles und fast jeder um das Bodhisattvatum.
Da ich mit den Worten und der Geschichte nicht so bekannt bin, was genau ist "Matitreya-natha", was ist „Bodhisattva-Bhumi“ (Bhumi meine ich zukennen, im Kambodschanischen gibt es das Wort Pum für Dorf oder Platz und bedeutet so etwas wie Versammlung), und wer ist "Dhammapala" und was ist seine "Abhandlung über die Paramis"?

Wenn wir den Bodhisattvaweg als eine Erkenntnisweg (siehe z.B. Wege zur Eintracht- sangha vatthu ), Weg der Einsicht und des lernens sehen, dann ist er ganz natürlich ein Weg den die ersten Person oder eine, die die erste Person anstrebt, durchzumachen hat und daher ganz bestimmt Anteil des buddhistischen Weges ist. Das Schaffen der Grundlagen durch parami-arbeit. Nicht jedem ist es in einer einzigen Existenz möglich den achtfachen Pfad direkt zu gehen, aber jedem die Grundlagen dafür zu verbessern.

Sicherlich kann man sich auch auf diesem Weg verlieren, aber ohne ihn gegangen zu sein, wird man den achtfachen Pfad wohl nicht finden.

"Das sind die zwei Weisen, die zur Eintracht führen: Die gute Weise, die hilfreich und zuträglich ist und die beste Weise, die zur Befreiung und zum Heile führt. Von diesen beiden Weisen schließt die letztere die erstere in sich, setzt sie voraus, kann ohne sie nicht bestehen."

Was genau ist nun der Unterschied zwischen Bodhisatta Pfad und Bodhisattva pfad?

Ich würde hier sogar mal behaupten, daß jeder, jeder, der noch Zweifel an Vinaya (= Weg zur Erfüllung der Paramis) hat, den heiligen Pfad noch nicht geht oder gehen kann ein Bodhisattva ist, den Bodhisattva Weg geht, und noch kein Schüler.


Thanks for the straight forward answer, I would also see it like that, but we need to be carefull a little as we (the one or other) are in some ways also Bodhisattvas and not able to let go of the world yet. We would have less to do, all things would have been done, would there be the beloved “Buddhanature”.

I guess it is nessesary to tread this issue more exactlly as today the „Buddhism“ turns nearly exclusively around „Bodhisattvanism“
As I am not so familiar with the words and history, what exactly is "Matitreya-natha", what is „Bodhisattva-Bhumi“ (I guess I can identify Bhumi, there is a Cambodian word “Pum” which is used for village or place, meaning something like assembling) and wo is "Dhammapala" and what his "Treatise on the Paramis"?

If we regard the Bodhisattva Path as a path of lerning and understanding (look for example Ways to benevolence - sangha vatthu , way of insight, than it is very naturally that the first person or the person who desires to gain the fist person, needs to go this way and with it, it is actually the Buddhist way. The creation of condition through paramis work. Not everybody is able to join the walk on the Noble Eightfold Path within the present existence, but everybody is able to better his conditions within this aspiration.

Of course one easy can also get lost on this way, but without having walked this way, one would not find to the Eignfold Path.

"There are the two kinds leading to benevolence: The good kind, which is helpful and conducive and the best kind, which leads to liberation and peace. Of this two kinds, the last includes the first, is dependend on it, can not exist without it. (quick free translation)

So what exactlly is the different between Bodhisatta path and Bodhisattva path?

I would even say that everybody, everybody who has still doubt on Vinaya (=way for fulfillment of paramis) or is not able to take the holy path as a whole is a Bodhisattva, walks the Bodhisattva path and not a real disciple yet.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 09:39:02 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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I'm not a Bodhisatta, since I won't be a Buddha.

I don't appreciate "Buddhanature" since this is a later invention which has nothing to do with Buddha's teaching.

Maitreya-natha was the author who invented the "Bodhisattva's Path":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya-n%C4%81tha
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37687/Asanga

Dhammapala was a Theravadin commentator who borrowed in his work some parts of "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" by Maitreya-Natha:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html

Buddha Gotama never taught to become a Bodhisatta - that would be nonsensical; he taught the way to cessation of suffering.

The word 'parami' starts to occut only in the later texts, such as Cariyapitaka and Buddhavamsa. Buddha himself never told to develop them. IMHO, it is simply unrealistic to transform personal qualities without samadhi and vipassana.

Offline Johann

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I'm not a Bodhisatta, since I won't be a Buddha.
Ich bin kein Bodhisatta, da ich kein Buddha werden würde.

Isn't one meaning, the "real" meaning of the word "Bodhisatta" a being that strives for awakening (bodhi)? From that point, I don't think that your are not a Bodhisatta, exept you would have already reached the path and tasted the fruit of awakening. As a member of the noble Sangha (8 persons), to come back to the OP question, it's from my opinion risky to say that it can include a Bodhisatta.

Ist nicht die wahre Bedeutung des Wortes "Bodhisatta" ein Wesen, das nach Erwachen (bodhi) strebt? Aus dieser sicht kann ich mir jetzt nicht vorstellen, daß du kein Bodhisatta bist, ausgenommen du hast bereits den Pfad erreicht und die Frucht des Erwachend gekostet. Als ein Mitglied der Noblen Sangha, um auf das eingehende Thema zurückzukommen, ist es aus meiner Sicht riskant zu meinen, das diese einen Bodhisatta beinhalten kann.



I don't appreciate "Buddhanature" since this is a later invention which has nothing to do with Buddha's teaching.

Ich schätze dieses "Buddhanatur" nicht, da es eine spätere Einbringung war, die nichts mit Buddhas Lehren zu tun hat.

Please don't get me wrong, it was really not about personal situations but a general discussion. Of course it was a little provoking.
To the point, whether we appreciate "Buddhanature" or not, in its subtle meaning it's actually the believe in something inherent and as long as we would not have gained the path - appreciate or not - we actually believe in this "Buddhanature", it's just that we give it a different name. Mostly "I ..."

Bitte versteh mich nicht falsch, es geht wirklich nicht um personliche Situationen aber um eine generelle Diskussion. Sicherlich war es etwas provozierend.
Zur Sache, ob wie nun "Buddhanatur" schätzen oder auch nicht, in seiner subtile Bedeutung ist es doch der Glaube an etwas innewohnendes und solange wir den Pfad nicht erreicht haben - ob nun geschätzt, oder nicht - glauben wir an diese "Buddhanature und es ist nur so, daß wir dem einen anderen Namen geben.  Meistens "Ich ..."




Maitreya-natha was the author who invented the "Bodhisattva's Path":

Maitreya-natha ist der Autor, der den "Bodhisattva Pfad" erfunden hat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya-n%C4%81tha
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37687/Asanga

Dhammapala was a Theravadin commentator who borrowed in his work some parts of "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" by Maitreya-Natha:

Dhammapala war ein theravadischer Kommentator, der sich Teile seiner Arbeit aus dem "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" von Maitreya-Natha geborgt hat.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html

Thanks for the share, I will read it.

Buddha Gotama never taught to become a Bodhisatta - that would be nonsensical; he taught the way to cessation of suffering.

Buddha Gotama hat niemals gelehrt ein Bodhisatta zu werden, das wäre unlogisch. Er lehrte den Weg der Auflösung des Leidens.

Yes, of course, even I do not really know what he actually taught, it would not make much sense. It would be like if a father who has gone through hardship, teaches the son to go thought the same hardship even he already knows the easy way.

Ja sicher, auch wenn ich nicht wirklich weis, was Buddha nun tatsächlich gelehrt hat, würde das nicht viel Sinn machen. Es wäre, als ob ein Vater der durch viel Mühen gegangen ist, seinem Sohn lehren würde, durch die selben Mühen zu gehen, auch wenn er schon den leichten Weg weis.


The word 'parami' starts to occut only in the later texts, such as Cariyapitaka and Buddhavamsa. Buddha himself never told to develop them. IMHO, it is simply unrealistic to transform personal qualities without samadhi and vipassana.

Das Wort "parami" taucht erst in späteren Schriften, wie Cariyapitaka und Buddhavamsa auf. Buddha selbst erklärete nie diese zu entwickeln. Aus meiner Sicht, ist es einfach unrealistisch seine persönlichen Qulitäten ohne samadhi und vipassana zu transformieren.

It might be that the word "parami" is not mentioned in the texts, but if you change the word in conditions or prerequisites to gain the first little understanding or right view is the actually nearly the whole teaching especially for layman. One can try "samadhi" or "vipassana" for eons, if he has not developed the prerequisites. It will not easy be samma samadhi, of course it could be samadhi but still attached to the world. To be provoking again: "bodhisatta samadhi" to come back to the OP.

I guess it would be good to be not to fast. Its a question that moves the whole "Buddhist" world.

Maybe that is good for explaining (even its a later "development"):

Milindapañha 3.1.3. "Timely fighting" (I try to find a english version)

got it:


3. The king said: 'You told me, Nâgasena, that your renunciation was to the end that this sorrow might perish away, and no further sorrow might spring up 2.'

[66] 'Yes, that is so.'

'But is that renunciation brought about by previous effort, or to be striven after now, in this present time?'

The Elder replied: 'Effort is now concerned with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me an illustration 3.'

p. 102

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel thirst that you would set to work to have a well or an artificial lake dug out, with the intention of getting some water to drink?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel hungry that you set to work to have fields ploughed and seed planted and crops reaped with the intention of getting some food to eat?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when the battle is set in array against you that you set to work to have a moat dug, and a rampart put up, and a watch tower built, and a stronghold formed, and stores of food collected? Is it then that you would have yourself taught the management of elephants, or horsemanship, or the use of the chariot and the bow, or the art of fencing?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do. For it has been thus said, O king, by the Blessed One:

"Betimes let each wise man work out
That which he sees to be his weal!
Not with the carter's mode of thought, but firm p. 103
Let him, with resolution, step right out.
As a carter who has left the smooth high road,
And turned to byways rough, broods ill at ease 1--
(Like him who hazards all at dice, and fails)--
So the weak mind who still neglects the good,
And follows after evil, grieves at heart,
When fallen into the power of death, as he,
The ruined gamester, in his hour of need 2."

[67] 'Very good, Nâgasena.

Es mag sein, daß das Wort "Parami" nicht in den Texten auftaucht, aber wenn wir das Wort mit dem Wort Voraussetzungen oder Grundlagen austauschen, um das erste kleine Verständnis zu bekommen oder rechte Sichtweise, ist es tatsächlich so, daß fast die gesamten Lehren davon handeln, speziell für Laien. Da kann einer für Eons sich in Samadhi oder Vipassana versuchen, wenn er die Grundlagen dafür nicht entwickelt hat. Es wird nicht leicht samma samadhi sein, sicher wird es samadhi sein, aber stets anhaftend an die Welt - um noch einmal Provozierend zu sein: "Bodhisatta samadhi"

Ich denke es ist gut nicht zu übereilig zu sein. Es ist eine Frage, die die ganze "buddhistische" Welt bewegt.

Vielleicht ist das ganz gut zur Erklärung (auch wenn es etwas später aufgekommen ist):


Quote from: www.palikanon.de

Mil. 3.1.3. Zeitiges Kämpfen

 

Der König sprach: "Du sagtest mir da, o Herr, eure Weltentsagung habe zum Ziele, dieses gegenwärtige Leiden eben schwinden und kein anderes (neues) Leiden mehr aufkommen zu lassen."

"Ja, o König, das ist das Ziel unserer Weltentsagung."

"Wie nun aber: ist dieses Ziel das Ergebnis früherer Anstrengung, oder hat man wohl, wenn die Zeit herangekommen ist, immer noch zu kämpfen?"

"Ist einmal die Zeit herangekommen, o König, so hat das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Erläutere mir dies!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn du Durst hast und Wasser zu trinken wünschtest, wirst du da wohl zu diesem Zwecke erst einen Brunnen oder eine Zisterne graben?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr!"

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat, sobald die Zeit erst einmal herangekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Gib mir ein weiteres Gleichnis!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn du Hunger hast und zu essen wünschest, wirst du da wohl zu diesem Zwecke es für nötig halten, erst das Feld zu pflügen, den Samen zu säen oder das Getreide herbeischaffen zu lassen?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr."

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat, sobald die Zeit erst einmal herangekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Gib mir noch ein weiteres Gleichnis!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn dir eine Schlacht bevorsteht, wirst du wohl erst dann Festungsgräben ziehen, Wälle aufwerfen, Verschanzungen und Warten errichten, Proviant herbeischaffen und damit anfangen, mit den Elefanten, Pferden und Streitwagen umgehen zu lernen und dich mit Schießen und Fechten vertraut zu machen?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr."

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat sobald die Zeit erst einmal heran gekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt. Auch der Erhabene, o König, sagt:

 

    Was als heilsam man erkannt hat,
    Das verrichte man beizeiten,
    Denke nicht wie manch ein Kärrner,
    Sondern kämpfe klug und stark.
         
    G'rade wie so mancher Kärrner,
    Der, den ebnen Weg verlassend,
    Holperig-schlechtem Pfade folgt,
    Klagt, wenn seine Achse bricht:
         
    So auch klagt, wer's Rechte flicht
    Und wess' Herz dem Bösen folgt,
    In des Todes Schlund geraten,
    Wie der Kärrner über seine Achse."

(S.2.23)

 

"Klug bist du, ehrwürdiger Nāgasena!"




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