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Talkbox

2019 Jan 16 16:33:43
Cheav Villa: Things to read :D

2019 Jan 16 16:27:50
Cheav Villa: Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 15:28:02
Johann: The Story of Culekasataka (Maha Kassapa and his wife in former life)

2019 Jan 16 15:20:13
Johann: ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក

2019 Jan 16 04:07:43
Khemakumara: Nyom Chanroth

2019 Jan 16 02:09:37
Chanroth: សាធុសាធុសាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 02:07:10
Johann: ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក

2019 Jan 16 02:06:36
Chanroth: ជំរាបសួរ Moritz

2019 Jan 16 02:06:31
Johann: "Another day, another possibility. We don't know what tomorrow might be."

2019 Jan 15 19:41:08
Khemakumara: Nyom Moritz

2019 Jan 15 19:38:38
Moritz: Vandami Bhante (Khemakumara) _/\_

2019 Jan 15 17:13:16
Johann: Nyom Puthy, maybe this helps: ការរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុង website .

2019 Jan 15 16:10:29
Ieng Puthy: ព្រះអង្គករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុលាសិនហេីយ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:07:58
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាគ្រាន់តែចូលអាន ករុណាមិនទាន់យល់ពីរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុងwebsite នៅឡេីយទេ ព្រះអង្គ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:00:58
Johann: How ever one feels inspired, has joy, likes to give into.  How can I use the forum purposefully, for myself, as well as for others?

2019 Jan 15 15:57:55
Johann: No need to use all possibilities for merits for one alone but good to invite others to join and become more independend till free.

2019 Jan 15 15:04:39
Johann: no requirement to do all, merits step by step. "The path to nibbana is hard", they say, and don't do even little steps, Nyom. As inspired, its at least a working and concentration camp, Devas delight in creation, Devas having contr. over the creation of others.

2019 Jan 15 14:53:43
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គការបកប្រែមកជាខ្មែរ  មានខុសច្រើនណាស់  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 14:49:16
Khemakumara: leng Puthy

2019 Jan 15 14:48:29
Khemakumara: Nyom leng Pitts

2019 Jan 15 14:45:35
Johann: There is a lot of new for many. If the Nyom Ladies like to help in translating here and there a little, it might be easier for khmer-speaking monks to get informed well.

2019 Jan 15 14:25:23
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 13:33:34
Khemakumara: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 13:32:47
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 13:27:53
Johann: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 10:46:40
Johann: But a topic can be opened everywhere and can then be moved.

2019 Jan 15 10:45:27
Johann: There is also a Link to direct Requests for Teachings - link, so things get not lost.

2019 Jan 15 10:44:12
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាព្រះអង្គ🙏🏻អរព្រះគុុណ ព្រះអង្គ

2019 Jan 15 10:42:55
Johann: Good place is surely at  Dhammatalks - (dhamma desanā)

2019 Jan 15 10:35:06
Johann: Talkbox is not proper, just for greating and small-talk

2019 Jan 15 10:24:47
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ព្រះអង្គ តេីមានធម៌អ្វីដែលអាចកំចាត់ធម៌លោភៈល្អិតនៅក្នុងចិត្តបានដែរឬទេ ?ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 15 10:21:37
Johann: Just open a new topic best, Nyom Puthy (requires some bhava-chanda)

2019 Jan 15 10:17:22
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 15 10:07:10
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe

2019 Jan 15 10:01:15
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គមុនី! ករុណាមានសំណួរ១អំពី អនុស្ស័យកិលេសមាន៧ គឺ 1-កាមរាគានុស្ស័យ 2-ភវនុស្ស័យ3

2019 Jan 15 09:31:36
Cheav Villa:  :)  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:27:54
Chanroth: ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុន្នី ពីរអាស្រមថ្មទូក_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:21:46
Chanroth: បាតជំរាបសួរបងស្រី ខ្ញុំមិនទាន់បានធ្វេីនៅឡេីយទេ ពីព្រោះខ្ញុំឈឺ បានធូហេីយ តែមិនទាន់បាត់ថ្លោះករនៅឡេីយ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 08:57:49
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុនី  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 07:34:19
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 05:57:47
Cheav Villa: តើពូកំពុងជួយការងារលោកតាមែនទេ?តើនៅអាស្រមមានកង្វះខាតអ្វីទេនៅពេលនេះ

2019 Jan 15 05:54:51
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរពូចាន់រ័ត្ន _/\_

2019 Jan 15 01:12:12
Johann: And "we" wouldn't always know or find out but need to relay on one who know

2019 Jan 15 01:06:48
Johann: There are two kinds of sadness and happiness, of which one of each is conductive for liberation, one not.

2019 Jan 15 01:02:24
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we always be able to find out for ourselves how much attachment we accumulate, and whether this brings us happiness or sorrow! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 15 01:00:52
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir immer  selbst herausfinden kӧnnen, wie viel Anhaftung wir anhäufen und ob  diese Anhaftung uns die Frӧhlichkeit oder  die Traurigkeit bringt! Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 13:52:41
Johann: Nyom Puthy. May you all have good Dhamma conversations with each other, don't be shy on that. Atma will go to rest.

2019 Jan 14 13:48:00
Johann: ញោម ចាន់រ័ត្ន

2019 Jan 14 12:49:01
Cheav Villa: អរព្រះគុណព្រះអង្គ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 12:36:20
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we possess the causes of blissfulness always! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 12:35:18
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mӧgen wir immer die Ursachen der Glückseligkeit besitzen! Dhamma Grüβe  aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 10:20:32
Johann: "នាងវិសាខា ក្រាបបង្គំទូលថា ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំម្ចាស់រក្សាឧបោសថៈព្រះអង្គ។"...

2019 Jan 14 09:49:40
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 06:59:34
Cheav Villa: Jain-Upossathaកូណាមុិនទាន់យល់ន័យនៃពាក្យនេះទេ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 05:12:41
Johann: "មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន"... មែន(sense)ទុក្ខឬមិន? Where?

2019 Jan 14 04:57:55
Johann: Buddha and Savaka do not teach Jain-Uposatha: អ្នកណា​មាទុក្ខ? , Sadhu

2019 Jan 14 04:50:21
Johann: ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល! មានទេមិនមាន ... ការនិយាយអំពីសត្វ។ ធម៌ទាំងអស់មានមូលហេតុ ដូច្នេះ: រឿងដំបូងនៅលើកដំបូង!

2019 Jan 14 04:21:59
Cheav Villa: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន ជាអនត្តាធម៌ ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល  _/\_

2019 Jan 14 04:16:00
Johann: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួនទេ = មិនមែនទុក្ខទេ

2019 Jan 14 04:06:00
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 14 04:05:16
Johann: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា !

2019 Jan 14 02:18:42
Chanroth: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា

2019 Jan 13 15:16:49
Johann: First things first , very recommended, hearing the Uposatha of the Jains from the Villages all the time here.

2019 Jan 13 15:05:49
Johann: again and again coming back to Dhamma, Punja? Habits become destinies.

2019 Jan 13 14:53:42
Johann: coming back seems to be niccaŋ

2019 Jan 13 14:40:52
Cheav Villa: អនិច្ចំ *sgift*

2019 Jan 13 14:29:43
Ieng Puthy:  Chom reap leah , good bye🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:18:50
Moritz: Chom reap leah, good bye _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:11:50
Ieng Puthy: Hello Master Morithz🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:07:24
Moritz: Hello Ieng Puthy _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:07:16
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jan 13 13:54:34
Ieng Puthy: ជំរាបសួរ បងចាន់រ័ត្ន Bong Chanroth 🙏🏼សូមបងឆាប់បានជាសះស្បេីយ

2019 Jan 13 13:49:26
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Jan 13 09:17:06
Chanroth: ខ្ញំបានជាហើយ តែវេទនាបានកើតឡើងចំពោះខ្ញុំ បញ្ហាថ្លោះកករ :-\

2019 Jan 13 07:49:41
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរពូចាន់រ័ត្ន ពូបានធូរស្បើយហើយមើលទៅ :D _/\_

2019 Jan 13 07:48:35
Cheav Villa: Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 13 07:47:10
Johann: May all spent a meritful Siladay today or tomorrow.

2019 Jan 13 05:07:45
Chanroth: ជំរាបសួរបងស្រី វីឡាខ្ញុំបាទchanroth _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 13 00:05:39
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាព្រះអង្គ Bhante 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 12 09:04:48
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 11 13:49:09
Cheav Villa: Thank you Bang Thy. Good come in and out  :D _/\_

2019 Jan 11 13:41:49
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jan 11 13:13:35
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻ជំរាបសួរបងប្អូនធម្មមិត្តទាំងអស់គ្នា chumreap sour Dhamma friends !  May all have a good evening

2019 Jan 11 13:04:15
Ieng Puthy: ករុណា ព្រះអង្គ Bhante 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 09 17:17:52
Cheav Villa: Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 09 16:12:53
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Jan 09 05:06:55
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 09 00:43:24
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jan 08 16:15:17
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ Khemakumara Bhante

2019 Jan 08 16:13:20
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ Inddanano Bhante

2019 Jan 08 16:11:09
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 កូរុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ vandami Bhente

2019 Jan 08 12:48:21
Moritz: May all have a good evening _/\_ Chom reap leah _/\_

2019 Jan 08 12:38:37
Moritz: :) Sayun suesday _/\_

2019 Jan 08 12:34:56
Cheav Villa: Thank you Master Moritz _/\_ Well and unwell are welcoming  :D

2019 Jan 08 12:22:05
Johann: Good to read and Sadhu

2019 Jan 08 12:17:08
Moritz: I am fine. Thanks. I hope Bhante and everyone around is well as well   _/\_

2019 Jan 08 12:11:29
Johann: Master Moritz. How is Nyom?

2019 Jan 08 12:07:29
Moritz: I think this design with shoutbox on top is a good expedient solution.

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Author Topic: A Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha? Bodhisattva ein Sanghamitglied?  (Read 3702 times)

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Offline Johann

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Hier ein spezielles Here a special

Kann ein Bodhisttva ein Sanghamitglied sein?

Gestern vor dem Einschlafen ist mir diese knifflige und vielleicht provozierende "Frage" in den Geist gekommen. Wenn wir davon ausgehen, daß die Sangha aus den vier Paaren (den acht Personen) besteht, ist es mit großer Wahrscheinlichkeit nicht möglich, daß ein "klassischer" Bodhisattva (so wie es breit erzählt wird - einer der zum Wohle aller Wesen im Samsara verweilt) nie Teil der Sangha werden kann.
Nimmt man Bodhisatta - ein Wesen das nach Befreiung strebt -  ist er/sie im Gegensatz, schon mit diesem Streben als Mitglied der ersten Person (vorausgesetzt er/sie weiß wo nach er strebt) als Teil der noblen Sangha anzusehen.

Sicherlich Stoff für eine ausgiebige Diskussion und Stoff zum nachdenken. Freue mich über eure Gedanken und ev. Erklärungen dazu.


Is it possible that a Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha?

Yesterday bevor I felt asleep a finicky and maybe provocing "question" arose in my mind. If we regard the Sangha containing the four pairs (the eight persons), it seems to be impossible that a classical Bodhisattva (like it is told broadly - someone who desires to dwell in Samsara for the well-being of all beings) might be part of the Sangha.
If we take the Bodhisatta - a Being which strives for liberation - he/she is in the opposite to the first idea within the desire for this already a member of the first person (assumed that he/she knows what he is striving for) and already part of the noble Sangha.

Of course stuff for a huge discussion and stuff to think about. Would be great if you share your thoughts and maybe also an explaining.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 01:03:19 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Admin

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The idea of "Bodhisattva Path" was coined by Maitreya-natha in his Bodhisattva-Bhumi, and then imported into Theravada by Dhammapala in his "Treatise on the Paramis".

So the person who follows such a path follows the Maitreya-natha, since Buddha never taught such things. "Bodhisattvism" has nothing to do with following the teaching of a Buddha.

"Bodhisattvas" are historically known to refuse any substantial development of wisdom, since this could make them stream-enterers, bound to achieve Nibbana in seven lives or less, and this wouldn't be sufficient for these "Bodhisattvas" to fulfill their nonsensical wows to save all beings.

Offline Johann

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The idea of "Bodhisattva Path" was coined by Maitreya-natha in his Bodhisattva-Bhumi, and then imported into Theravada by Dhammapala in his "Treatise on the Paramis".

So the person who follows such a path follows the Maitreya-natha, since Buddha never taught such things. "Bodhisattvism" has nothing to do with following the teaching of a Buddha.

"Bodhisattvas" are historically known to refuse any substantial development of wisdom, since this could make them stream-enterers, bound to achieve Nibbana in seven lives or less, and this wouldn't be sufficient for these "Bodhisattvas" to fulfill their nonsensical wows to save all beings.

Die Idee eine "Bodhisattva Pfades" wurde durch Matitreya-natha und seinem Bodhisattva-Bhumi gepräget und dann von Dhammapala mit seiner "Abhandlung über die Paramis" in den Theravada importiert.

Eine Person, die solch einem Pfad folgt, folgt dem Maitreya-natha Pfad, da Buddha niemals solche Dinge lehrte. "Bodhisattanismus" hat nicht mit dem folgen der Lehren Buddhas zu tun.

"Bodhisattvas" sind historisch bekannt, jede Art der handfesten Entwicklung von Weisheit abzulehnen, da dies sie zu Stromerreichern machen könnte und sie daran binden würde innerhalb von sieben Existenzen oder weniger Nibbana zu erreichen und dies wurde diesen Bodhisattvas nicht ausreichen, ihren Sinnloses Gelübte alle Wesen zu retten, zu erfüllen.


Danke für die geradlinige Antwort, würde ich auch so sehen, wenn gleich man etwas vorsichtig sein muß, da wir (der eine oder andere) in gewisser Weise auch alle noch Bodhisattvas sind und von der Welt noch nicht loslassen. Wir hätten ja wenig zu tun, unsere Sachen wären alle getan, wäre das nicht die liebe "Buddhanatur".

Ich denke, daß man das Thema etwas genauer behandeln muß, dreht sich ja heute im "Buddhismus" alles und fast jeder um das Bodhisattvatum.
Da ich mit den Worten und der Geschichte nicht so bekannt bin, was genau ist "Matitreya-natha", was ist „Bodhisattva-Bhumi“ (Bhumi meine ich zukennen, im Kambodschanischen gibt es das Wort Pum für Dorf oder Platz und bedeutet so etwas wie Versammlung), und wer ist "Dhammapala" und was ist seine "Abhandlung über die Paramis"?

Wenn wir den Bodhisattvaweg als eine Erkenntnisweg (siehe z.B. Wege zur Eintracht- sangha vatthu ), Weg der Einsicht und des lernens sehen, dann ist er ganz natürlich ein Weg den die ersten Person oder eine, die die erste Person anstrebt, durchzumachen hat und daher ganz bestimmt Anteil des buddhistischen Weges ist. Das Schaffen der Grundlagen durch parami-arbeit. Nicht jedem ist es in einer einzigen Existenz möglich den achtfachen Pfad direkt zu gehen, aber jedem die Grundlagen dafür zu verbessern.

Sicherlich kann man sich auch auf diesem Weg verlieren, aber ohne ihn gegangen zu sein, wird man den achtfachen Pfad wohl nicht finden.

"Das sind die zwei Weisen, die zur Eintracht führen: Die gute Weise, die hilfreich und zuträglich ist und die beste Weise, die zur Befreiung und zum Heile führt. Von diesen beiden Weisen schließt die letztere die erstere in sich, setzt sie voraus, kann ohne sie nicht bestehen."

Was genau ist nun der Unterschied zwischen Bodhisatta Pfad und Bodhisattva pfad?

Ich würde hier sogar mal behaupten, daß jeder, jeder, der noch Zweifel an Vinaya (= Weg zur Erfüllung der Paramis) hat, den heiligen Pfad noch nicht geht oder gehen kann ein Bodhisattva ist, den Bodhisattva Weg geht, und noch kein Schüler.


Thanks for the straight forward answer, I would also see it like that, but we need to be carefull a little as we (the one or other) are in some ways also Bodhisattvas and not able to let go of the world yet. We would have less to do, all things would have been done, would there be the beloved “Buddhanature”.

I guess it is nessesary to tread this issue more exactlly as today the „Buddhism“ turns nearly exclusively around „Bodhisattvanism“
As I am not so familiar with the words and history, what exactly is "Matitreya-natha", what is „Bodhisattva-Bhumi“ (I guess I can identify Bhumi, there is a Cambodian word “Pum” which is used for village or place, meaning something like assembling) and wo is "Dhammapala" and what his "Treatise on the Paramis"?

If we regard the Bodhisattva Path as a path of lerning and understanding (look for example Ways to benevolence - sangha vatthu , way of insight, than it is very naturally that the first person or the person who desires to gain the fist person, needs to go this way and with it, it is actually the Buddhist way. The creation of condition through paramis work. Not everybody is able to join the walk on the Noble Eightfold Path within the present existence, but everybody is able to better his conditions within this aspiration.

Of course one easy can also get lost on this way, but without having walked this way, one would not find to the Eignfold Path.

"There are the two kinds leading to benevolence: The good kind, which is helpful and conducive and the best kind, which leads to liberation and peace. Of this two kinds, the last includes the first, is dependend on it, can not exist without it. (quick free translation)

So what exactlly is the different between Bodhisatta path and Bodhisattva path?

I would even say that everybody, everybody who has still doubt on Vinaya (=way for fulfillment of paramis) or is not able to take the holy path as a whole is a Bodhisattva, walks the Bodhisattva path and not a real disciple yet.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 09:39:02 AM by Johann »
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I'm not a Bodhisatta, since I won't be a Buddha.

I don't appreciate "Buddhanature" since this is a later invention which has nothing to do with Buddha's teaching.

Maitreya-natha was the author who invented the "Bodhisattva's Path":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya-n%C4%81tha
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37687/Asanga

Dhammapala was a Theravadin commentator who borrowed in his work some parts of "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" by Maitreya-Natha:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html

Buddha Gotama never taught to become a Bodhisatta - that would be nonsensical; he taught the way to cessation of suffering.

The word 'parami' starts to occut only in the later texts, such as Cariyapitaka and Buddhavamsa. Buddha himself never told to develop them. IMHO, it is simply unrealistic to transform personal qualities without samadhi and vipassana.

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I'm not a Bodhisatta, since I won't be a Buddha.
Ich bin kein Bodhisatta, da ich kein Buddha werden würde.

Isn't one meaning, the "real" meaning of the word "Bodhisatta" a being that strives for awakening (bodhi)? From that point, I don't think that your are not a Bodhisatta, exept you would have already reached the path and tasted the fruit of awakening. As a member of the noble Sangha (8 persons), to come back to the OP question, it's from my opinion risky to say that it can include a Bodhisatta.

Ist nicht die wahre Bedeutung des Wortes "Bodhisatta" ein Wesen, das nach Erwachen (bodhi) strebt? Aus dieser sicht kann ich mir jetzt nicht vorstellen, daß du kein Bodhisatta bist, ausgenommen du hast bereits den Pfad erreicht und die Frucht des Erwachend gekostet. Als ein Mitglied der Noblen Sangha, um auf das eingehende Thema zurückzukommen, ist es aus meiner Sicht riskant zu meinen, das diese einen Bodhisatta beinhalten kann.



I don't appreciate "Buddhanature" since this is a later invention which has nothing to do with Buddha's teaching.

Ich schätze dieses "Buddhanatur" nicht, da es eine spätere Einbringung war, die nichts mit Buddhas Lehren zu tun hat.

Please don't get me wrong, it was really not about personal situations but a general discussion. Of course it was a little provoking.
To the point, whether we appreciate "Buddhanature" or not, in its subtle meaning it's actually the believe in something inherent and as long as we would not have gained the path - appreciate or not - we actually believe in this "Buddhanature", it's just that we give it a different name. Mostly "I ..."

Bitte versteh mich nicht falsch, es geht wirklich nicht um personliche Situationen aber um eine generelle Diskussion. Sicherlich war es etwas provozierend.
Zur Sache, ob wie nun "Buddhanatur" schätzen oder auch nicht, in seiner subtile Bedeutung ist es doch der Glaube an etwas innewohnendes und solange wir den Pfad nicht erreicht haben - ob nun geschätzt, oder nicht - glauben wir an diese "Buddhanature und es ist nur so, daß wir dem einen anderen Namen geben.  Meistens "Ich ..."




Maitreya-natha was the author who invented the "Bodhisattva's Path":

Maitreya-natha ist der Autor, der den "Bodhisattva Pfad" erfunden hat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya-n%C4%81tha
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37687/Asanga

Dhammapala was a Theravadin commentator who borrowed in his work some parts of "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" by Maitreya-Natha:

Dhammapala war ein theravadischer Kommentator, der sich Teile seiner Arbeit aus dem "Bodhisattva-Bhumi" von Maitreya-Natha geborgt hat.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html

Thanks for the share, I will read it.

Buddha Gotama never taught to become a Bodhisatta - that would be nonsensical; he taught the way to cessation of suffering.

Buddha Gotama hat niemals gelehrt ein Bodhisatta zu werden, das wäre unlogisch. Er lehrte den Weg der Auflösung des Leidens.

Yes, of course, even I do not really know what he actually taught, it would not make much sense. It would be like if a father who has gone through hardship, teaches the son to go thought the same hardship even he already knows the easy way.

Ja sicher, auch wenn ich nicht wirklich weis, was Buddha nun tatsächlich gelehrt hat, würde das nicht viel Sinn machen. Es wäre, als ob ein Vater der durch viel Mühen gegangen ist, seinem Sohn lehren würde, durch die selben Mühen zu gehen, auch wenn er schon den leichten Weg weis.


The word 'parami' starts to occut only in the later texts, such as Cariyapitaka and Buddhavamsa. Buddha himself never told to develop them. IMHO, it is simply unrealistic to transform personal qualities without samadhi and vipassana.

Das Wort "parami" taucht erst in späteren Schriften, wie Cariyapitaka und Buddhavamsa auf. Buddha selbst erklärete nie diese zu entwickeln. Aus meiner Sicht, ist es einfach unrealistisch seine persönlichen Qulitäten ohne samadhi und vipassana zu transformieren.

It might be that the word "parami" is not mentioned in the texts, but if you change the word in conditions or prerequisites to gain the first little understanding or right view is the actually nearly the whole teaching especially for layman. One can try "samadhi" or "vipassana" for eons, if he has not developed the prerequisites. It will not easy be samma samadhi, of course it could be samadhi but still attached to the world. To be provoking again: "bodhisatta samadhi" to come back to the OP.

I guess it would be good to be not to fast. Its a question that moves the whole "Buddhist" world.

Maybe that is good for explaining (even its a later "development"):

Milindapañha 3.1.3. "Timely fighting" (I try to find a english version)

got it:


3. The king said: 'You told me, Nâgasena, that your renunciation was to the end that this sorrow might perish away, and no further sorrow might spring up 2.'

[66] 'Yes, that is so.'

'But is that renunciation brought about by previous effort, or to be striven after now, in this present time?'

The Elder replied: 'Effort is now concerned with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me an illustration 3.'

p. 102

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel thirst that you would set to work to have a well or an artificial lake dug out, with the intention of getting some water to drink?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when you feel hungry that you set to work to have fields ploughed and seed planted and crops reaped with the intention of getting some food to eat?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do.'

'Give me a further illustration.'

'Now what do you think, O king? Is it when the battle is set in array against you that you set to work to have a moat dug, and a rampart put up, and a watch tower built, and a stronghold formed, and stores of food collected? Is it then that you would have yourself taught the management of elephants, or horsemanship, or the use of the chariot and the bow, or the art of fencing?'

'Certainly not, Sir.'

'Just so, great king, is effort concerned now with what still remains to be done, former effort has accomplished what it had to do. For it has been thus said, O king, by the Blessed One:

"Betimes let each wise man work out
That which he sees to be his weal!
Not with the carter's mode of thought, but firm p. 103
Let him, with resolution, step right out.
As a carter who has left the smooth high road,
And turned to byways rough, broods ill at ease 1--
(Like him who hazards all at dice, and fails)--
So the weak mind who still neglects the good,
And follows after evil, grieves at heart,
When fallen into the power of death, as he,
The ruined gamester, in his hour of need 2."

[67] 'Very good, Nâgasena.

Es mag sein, daß das Wort "Parami" nicht in den Texten auftaucht, aber wenn wir das Wort mit dem Wort Voraussetzungen oder Grundlagen austauschen, um das erste kleine Verständnis zu bekommen oder rechte Sichtweise, ist es tatsächlich so, daß fast die gesamten Lehren davon handeln, speziell für Laien. Da kann einer für Eons sich in Samadhi oder Vipassana versuchen, wenn er die Grundlagen dafür nicht entwickelt hat. Es wird nicht leicht samma samadhi sein, sicher wird es samadhi sein, aber stets anhaftend an die Welt - um noch einmal Provozierend zu sein: "Bodhisatta samadhi"

Ich denke es ist gut nicht zu übereilig zu sein. Es ist eine Frage, die die ganze "buddhistische" Welt bewegt.

Vielleicht ist das ganz gut zur Erklärung (auch wenn es etwas später aufgekommen ist):


Quote from: www.palikanon.de

Mil. 3.1.3. Zeitiges Kämpfen

 

Der König sprach: "Du sagtest mir da, o Herr, eure Weltentsagung habe zum Ziele, dieses gegenwärtige Leiden eben schwinden und kein anderes (neues) Leiden mehr aufkommen zu lassen."

"Ja, o König, das ist das Ziel unserer Weltentsagung."

"Wie nun aber: ist dieses Ziel das Ergebnis früherer Anstrengung, oder hat man wohl, wenn die Zeit herangekommen ist, immer noch zu kämpfen?"

"Ist einmal die Zeit herangekommen, o König, so hat das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Erläutere mir dies!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn du Durst hast und Wasser zu trinken wünschtest, wirst du da wohl zu diesem Zwecke erst einen Brunnen oder eine Zisterne graben?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr!"

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat, sobald die Zeit erst einmal herangekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Gib mir ein weiteres Gleichnis!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn du Hunger hast und zu essen wünschest, wirst du da wohl zu diesem Zwecke es für nötig halten, erst das Feld zu pflügen, den Samen zu säen oder das Getreide herbeischaffen zu lassen?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr."

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat, sobald die Zeit erst einmal herangekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt."

"Gib mir noch ein weiteres Gleichnis!"

"Was meinst du, o König: wenn dir eine Schlacht bevorsteht, wirst du wohl erst dann Festungsgräben ziehen, Wälle aufwerfen, Verschanzungen und Warten errichten, Proviant herbeischaffen und damit anfangen, mit den Elefanten, Pferden und Streitwagen umgehen zu lernen und dich mit Schießen und Fechten vertraut zu machen?"

"Gewiß nicht, o Herr."

"Ebenso auch, o König, hat sobald die Zeit erst einmal heran gekommen ist, das Kämpfen keinen Zweck mehr; die frühere Anstrengung hat ja dann bereits ihren Zweck erfüllt. Auch der Erhabene, o König, sagt:

 

    Was als heilsam man erkannt hat,
    Das verrichte man beizeiten,
    Denke nicht wie manch ein Kärrner,
    Sondern kämpfe klug und stark.
         
    G'rade wie so mancher Kärrner,
    Der, den ebnen Weg verlassend,
    Holperig-schlechtem Pfade folgt,
    Klagt, wenn seine Achse bricht:
         
    So auch klagt, wer's Rechte flicht
    Und wess' Herz dem Bösen folgt,
    In des Todes Schlund geraten,
    Wie der Kärrner über seine Achse."

(S.2.23)

 

"Klug bist du, ehrwürdiger Nāgasena!"




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