CSCD Tipitaka khmer against Chun Nat prove reading

[Johann]

Aramika  

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[Original post:]

Do not let it disturbe much of you focus work Njom Norum

Sophorn , if inspired, it is actually long needed that the CSCD version given here for the Sangha and working puposes, will be first integrated like started hhre and secound read against the Chun Nat version, since nobody did it till now. Since our Version here in not meant as a public version of CSCD but actually for the Sanghas purposes, there are no problems to make remarks even edits, here.

The files have to be downloaded, incl. Attakata from http://tipitaka.org/khmr/ and integrated like suggested in the way of Tipitaka project .
It can also be printed out for those reading against.

[Johann]

Atma has seen that parts of the pali are different, for example in 7. Sekhiyakaṇḍaṃ, vin.pac.sk
Its totaly not clear where the Pali part of the Khmer Tipitaka has its origin. In Sekhiyakaṇḍaṃ also the way of sorting the overheads are different.
Thought that Chun Nat has participated on the Sanghameeting in Burma and the final work happened years after it, it would be interesting to know more about the work and history of the Khmer Tipitaka. Since people here usually can not really give references "They say... It is told..." it might be good to actually find a person who was directly involved.

Over all, it will be really a challenge to produce a 2.Edition of the Khmer Tipitaka and bring it into a good trace-able condition with the CSCD. Kein Honiglecken.

[Norum]

give me time, Bhante.
I will come back with the document you may need.
 

[Johann]

One sad some days ago: "Coming late is better then never." Take your time, is not importand in the moment, only good to know that neither this nor that is for sure or wrong but should be carefully investigated.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

8-11. Dann sagte der Gesegnete: "In dieser Weise, Bhikkhus, mag ein Bhikkhu sprechen: 'Angesicht zu Angesicht mit den Gesegneten, Mitbrüder, habe ich gehört und dieses gelernt: Dieses ist das Dhamma und die Disziplin, des Meisters Austeilung', oder: 'An einem Aufenthaltsort, von diesem und jenem Namen, lebt eine Gemeinschaft mit Älteren und Oberhäuptern. Angesicht zu Angesicht, mit dieser Gemeinschaft, habe ich das gehört und gelernt: 'Dieses ist das Dhamma und die Disziplin, des Meisters Austeilung', oder: 'An einem Aufenthaltsort, von diesem und jenem Namen, leben mehrere Bhikkhus, die Ältere sind, die belehrt sind, die ihre Wege vervollständigt haben, die Erhalter des Dhammas sind, der Disziplin und der Zusammenfassungen. Angesicht zu Angesicht, mit diesen Älteren, habe ich das gehört und gelernt: 'Dieses ist das Dhamma und die Disziplin, des Meisters Austeilung', oder: 'An einem Aufenthaltsort, von diesem und jenem Namen, lebt ein einzelner Bhikkhus, der ein Älterer ist, der belehrt ist, der seinen Weg vervollständigt hat, der ein Erhalter des Dhammas ist, der Disziplin und der Zusammenfassungen. Angesicht zu Angesicht, mit diesem Älteren, habe ich das gehört und gelernt: Dieses ist das Dhamma und die Disziplin, des Meisters Austeilung.'

"In solch einem Fall, Bhikkhus, ist die Erklärung von solch einem Bhikkhu, weder mit Zustimmung anzunehmen, noch zu verachten. Ohne zuzustimmen und ohne zu verachten, doch umsichtig die Sätze Wort für Wort lernend, sollte man diese in den Lehrreden nachspüren und sie mit der Disziplin nachprüfen. Wenn diese weder in den Lehrreden aufzuspüren sind, noch mit der Disziplin zu prüfen, muß man dieses rückschließen: 'Offensichtlich, dieses ist nicht des Gesegnetens Ausrufung, dieses wurde von diesem Bhikkhu missverstanden, oder von dieser Gemeinschaft, oder von diesen Älteren, oder von diesem Älteren.' In dieser Weise, Bhikkhus, solltet ihr es ablehnen. Aber wenn die betreffenden Sätze in den Lehrreden aufzuspüren sind und mit der Disziplin prüfbar, dann muß man dieses rückschließen: 'Offensichtlich, dieses ist des Gesegnetens Ausrufung, dieses wurde gut von diesem Bhikkhu verstanden, oder von dieser Gemeinschaft, oder von diesen Älteren, oder von diesem Älteren.' Und auf diese Weise, Bhikkhus, möget Ihr es auf dem ersten, zweite, dritten oder vierten Bezug akzeptieren. Dieses, Bhikkhu, sind die Vier Großen Bezüge, für Euch, zu erhalten."

Quote from: DN 16 http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

[Norum]

Namaskara Bhante

Atma has seen that parts of the pali are different, for example in 7. Sekhiyakaṇḍaṃ, vin.pac.sk
Its totaly not clear where the Pali part of the Khmer Tipitaka has its origin. In Sekhiyakaṇḍaṃ also the way of sorting the overheads are different.
Thought that Chun Nat has participated on the Sanghameeting in Burma and the final work happened years after it, it would be interesting to know more about the work and history of the Khmer Tipitaka. Since people here usually can not really give references "They say... It is told..." it might be good to actually find a person who was directly involved.

Over all, it will be really a challenge to produce a 2.Edition of the Khmer Tipitaka and bring it into a good trace-able condition with the CSCD. Kein Honiglecken.

Well, Mahasanggharaja Chun Nat has join that meeting in Burma. At that time, the work on khmer tipitaka translating are done already and some parts of them has published as books. Because of many problem in Cambodia, they needed time and money to continue next Volume of books. The complete books published few years after Sanggayana in Bruma.
Pali khmer, was wrote / copied ca. 900years before beginning translating into khmer on December 1929.  All the translating finished in year 1957 and published the first 50 Volume. years after Chattasanggayana, the whole Tipitaka (complete version) was finished publishing on April 1969. 
If everyone could understand in khmer...

[Johann]

Well, it is possible that there was never an update to the Sanggayana (many tell that it was). Nevertheless, since the CSCD actually carries remarks where Khmer Pali should be different, Atma wonders with which version Mahasanggharaja Chun Nat went to the meeting in Burma.

Lets see in progress where the detail differents are and why they possible find no mention in the CSCD.

[Norum]

yes on khmerpali also remark where are different from other languages. on pali side, Somdej Chun nat has proved with pali Burma, pali Sihala, and urope? sorry the last one, i forget it.

[Norum]

he also mentioned that, some languages focus on pali grammar but different from the original words.
maybe you can see this.

[Johann]

There is a lot work to do with the CSCD.

Once raised a question why CSCD-Khmer, wenn using the "am"-vocal in the middle comes to an "m" "ṃ" => modern Buddhists have taken the Sanskrit "ṃ" globally instead of Pali "ang" "ṁ", incl. all dictionaries... thats hard, but my person trust someone having participated on the last Sangha-yana.

It's not "Ahiṃsa" (=skr) it's "Ahiṅsa" and not "Saṃyutta" but "Saṅyutta Nikāya" The greatest Irony is then, that seldom one writtes "Saṃgha", instead of "Saṅgha". That's then the next "ng" noune with "am" actually "ang" confusion!

Wonder how many changes will be found...

How are you, Nyom Norum ? Howfar is the Khmer-Pali progressed, althought secondary maybe.

Ohh... my person's time to "save the world from "western/modern/communist" ignorance will be to less? *self-ironical...*

What ever one likes to grow into the good Dhamma, don't try it in Western/World and such as schools and universities. Some time might be left: Hurry! Or googleyana 

សំវេគ or សម្វេគ, saṅveg(a) or saṁvega, but not saṃvega, ui, ui...

But now it's clear, also why it took some decades and not 6 month with translatingsoftware...

How is Nyon Sudhammaviriyanī always saying: One needs a lot of patient.

Last message, by Nyom Norom, about 3 month ago, was "I don't feel well".
Wonder if Nyom Moritz or Sophorn ever tried to write Nyom.
Don't you all like to come to the land of Khema and sacrifice in good livelihood without the many dangers?

[Johann]

Ven. Thansissaro, just to mention it, because just seeing, Uses the "right" letter "ṁ" for the "vocal" " ំ" usually use in aniccent scripts in SE-Asia for "am"/"ang".

[Johann]

Since the source of the todays Khmer-Tipitaka is possible not clear, Atma, by sorting the Mahavagga, came accross that the pattern of structure, sections and so on, althought different numbering are most similar then the Thai-Edition and so it seems that both are near related.

It's known that old scripts in Thailand, before inventing new "own" script are written in Khmer script.

The introduction to the Translation work in the first book does not give much detail informatiin aside that cross-prove with all great editions, incl the European had been made.