* *

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition

Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka

Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Recent Topics

[Today at 02:20:38 AM]

[October 18, 2018, 06:34:44 PM]

[October 18, 2018, 05:38:02 PM]

[October 18, 2018, 05:21:09 PM]

[October 18, 2018, 12:57:57 PM]

[October 18, 2018, 11:45:21 AM]

[October 18, 2018, 10:20:19 AM]

[October 18, 2018, 09:48:37 AM]

[October 18, 2018, 06:05:37 AM]

[October 17, 2018, 04:15:34 PM]

[October 17, 2018, 12:35:31 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 04:14:38 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 04:06:49 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 12:27:08 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 10:58:44 AM]

[October 16, 2018, 10:04:06 AM]

[October 16, 2018, 08:36:14 AM]

[October 15, 2018, 11:40:47 AM]

[October 15, 2018, 01:04:28 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 06:02:30 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 05:48:30 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 02:28:52 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 12:43:18 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 10:41:10 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 04:43:13 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 04:33:02 AM]

[October 09, 2018, 10:08:20 AM]

[October 09, 2018, 06:48:13 AM]

[October 08, 2018, 02:12:05 PM]

[October 08, 2018, 09:34:16 AM]

[October 07, 2018, 04:58:08 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 04:16:43 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 03:54:26 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 03:41:07 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 02:27:45 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 12:57:09 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 12:51:04 PM]

[October 06, 2018, 02:25:16 PM]

by gus
[October 06, 2018, 01:13:54 PM]

[October 06, 2018, 11:43:45 AM]

[October 06, 2018, 04:06:18 AM]

[October 06, 2018, 01:29:35 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 05:04:21 PM]

[October 05, 2018, 04:34:09 PM]

[October 05, 2018, 11:50:59 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 11:36:35 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 09:04:24 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 08:54:45 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 07:06:32 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 07:02:28 AM]

Author Topic: Debts, but to whom?  (Read 2364 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Debts, but to whom?
« on: February 25, 2017, 05:58:35 AM »
Some days ago, Atma asked the village priest who was talking with two monks, eager to learn pali blessings with much bias towards the Brahmanic purposes: "What does Nyom think, which is better, which has release as option? If one accumulates debts torwards kalyāṇamittā or worldlings?" He tried to avoid the question, while the Abbott quickly answered: "It's better to fall in debt with Kalyāṇamittā" and then the priest kept mulling over the question, avoiding to give his own answer. Atma asked once again: "If Nyom is hungry, needs food, and there are two people having rice, a kalyāṇamittā or a worldling, to whom is better to ask if needed, receive and make debts?" He tried to avoid another time and started to explain, arguing thinks like the good friend might not have food to share or is poor... so he was asked again and told that both are standing in front having a portion of rice left.
Then he answered: "Of course its better to take from a Noble person or one on the way to that." "Why", Atma asked. "Because he would never demand something that is not good for me." "Yes, if you are in debt with good friends, all you could accumulate is certain pressure to do goodness, while the worldling would always pull you down and those debts are not easy to pay back without making more debts on another worldly way."

Now, even if people understand this intellectually, actually they do not like the ideia of get out of the circle of debts.

When we think on the Buddhas advices to his monks: "Better to eat hot iron balls than to receive a gift that demands a reward, not given free" (not a word by word recitation, it might be found in the Dhammapada) it is really not a light issue to do such thing, especially because it would block any kind of further progress in the monk's practice at the moment he is caught up in it. And since he is actually not able to pay back such demands, he either turns into a slave of his "sponsors" or he starts lose all his virtue little by little making one transgression after the other to be able to do what givers are wanting.

And do not think this is only a monk's issue, it is the same for lay people as well. Take from wordlings just what you are able to give back or start to let go of desires. If you are gifted to receive pure gifts by the Noble persons or those walking on the noble path, take it happily and you'll have a real good debt and nothing to fear out of it, actually things will get better.

Atma thought to share his thoughts since he just came across the truth that only a few people has little dust in their eyes.
"We prefer google and take CCs and download freely, since we like a lifestyle without restrictions and commitments..."

There is no way to help them since people with much dust in their eyes indulge in pleasure and lazy consuming without seen the burdens in it. They hide in "forests", "centers"... simply to enjoy sensuality and becoming along with other people with the same inclination, like the same food and keep making use of the easily given world's alms to provide them with what might be called a "eating together community" unwilling to subsist only with what is given.

It's hard to renounce, it's hard to not fall into debts with people willing to bind you and it's hard to understand and see from whom it would be good to receive gifts.

And that is the reason why one of Atmas favorite Suttas is called "Seclusion and not straighter "Good friend" since renunciation and good friend, outwardly and inwardly is the same thing.
At the same time this Sutta shows that a good friend would not hide any of his facets for which one could find out if he/she is or not a person on the path.
Whoever seeks for the ways and means of "villagers" does not keep his deeds unveiled, builds his own "mousetrap", a small or big kingdom like the "Ratenfänger" playing his flute, not open to discussion, not open to share his ups and downs, not open to let others see his faults, his ways of how he gains and gives, such a person can not be traced as somebody who would not be caught up in debts that would bind himself to the world.

Give up the illusion of freedom in this world and the notion of being able to take without having remorse as a result, for actually it will be a heavy burden later, though it seems to be no big deal right now.

Once really caught up, there is no escape without a lot of suffering and tears.

Nobody can burden a person on the path with his own personal wishes, so do not take that as an excuse to let yourself be carried away by your own defilements.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 02:36:23 AM by Danilo »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Antw:Debts, but to whom?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 06:25:45 AM »
For any relationship you mantain, which means on whom or what group you relate, seek entertainment, seek for nourishment, seek for joy, for livelihood... you are accumulating debts.

So if you keep getting involved with people who are complacent with their own defilements, which hold aims concerning worldly matters, this will pull you in to their direction.

In the same way, if you keep getting involved with the Noble Ones, this will pull you in to their direction.

Even if you, for example, like to study the good Dhamma, but keep associating with people which aim worldly matters, you would hardly be able to properly make use of this knowledge for liberation. Why? Because you have been building up debts towards people who is not on the Noble Path, they aim things not related to the Path and you will hardly find a way to get off this debts since they would not easily give room to you while you keep take sustenance in this relationship.

That is why one should not "think like a thief", if he actually knows the right way, since it's natural that thiefs would get caught.

It's really better to be patient and seek for support of the Noble Ones insted to think being the smart one and end up walking away driven by a outsider's wordly interest.

As for those not capable to distinguish between the Noble Ones and the traders of Dhamma at first hand, be patient and observe with attention while living together. And in the meantime, serve, serve and serve. Don't think you can just keep walk foward if you are in debt.

It's Seldom to gain a opportunity to have Nissaya with the Noble Ones and those who follow them, and even more seldom to have Upanissaya and maintain a relationship with them.

No wonder that it's easier when greed arises, to just *click, click* let the Google or the crowd-work make the job, let traders be honored for their trades, appealing to StackExchange to solve your "needs".

In that way one stays a slave of this world and aside of singing the gospels of desire alongside with others slaves, there is not much joy working on such fields, never gaining really anything substantial or a possibility of release.

Once having entered the right path, you are no more able to fall away, the debts in regard the Noble Ones, Liberation, would surpass the remaining debts regarding worldly matters, knowing this or not, it is what is called Pathwinner. Having reached its end, you gain the short bliss of the first fruit, which is really yours, without debts, accruing even later one after death. Knowing or not, you are already on the track of the next path or fruit. Even if not resolved knowingly and putting effort in foward progress, next path or fruit is gained latest after death.

In the case of you might still be get carried away by those who are not on the Path, indulging and associating with them, be really careful since from a Pathwinner your might turn into a Streamloser and from now on maybe be bound to the assemblings of others Streamlosers.

So if you are wise, even if you are not yet inclined to give and serve in advance, it's better to only take from those already on the Path or their followers. In any case, if one is unable to figure out for himself, the wisest approach is serve, serve and serve in whatever relationship you may have. This will come in handy whenever there is a opportunity to associate with the Noble Ones.

Even if you are a person not capable to gain path or fruit in this life, nevertheless if you have the luck to meet a Noble one or his group and serve by adopting their ways and emulate their habits you would accumulate debts in direction to liberation and later on, retake the path with the merits made in the previous life.

When small children are trained here by their parents to pay respect or to put some alms into the bowl of a passing monk, although it's clear that those bright little Devas does not really know what they actually are doing, just like most of their parents as well, it always causes a lot of sympatic joy to my person seeing how "blessed" they are.
Meeting other houses where children only learn how to get rid of the uneasiness of have a beggar at the front of the house, following their parents behaviour: "Ven. Sir, we haven't cooked rice yet ...today we are busy ...we eat already... today we have nothing to give.", little ones without shame, just like the little devas, but in the other way around, often it fills my person with a lot of compassion (karuna), after all, it wouldn't be easy for them to find the Dhamma in this life.

Work for you present and future condition, nourish good qualities, stay with the suggested basic training, give reason/cause for ground/fundation (upanissayapaccayena), for better relationship in the future.

All one could do for you for now, is tell all this again and again.

If you walk out in search for an answer, driven by a personal desire and overestimation of yourself, "I can", crossing the legs without respect and gratitude, associating with fools, then you would be just fooling youself since this is simply self sabotage, holding to the idea that the transcendent attainment can be gained on ordinary paths of the world.

There is a nice story that might be good to illustrate the issue. Although this story could have be a case of streamlosing at some point.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Story of Thera Pilotikatissa 

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (143) and (144) of this book, with reference to Thera Pilotikatissa.

Once, Thera Ananda saw a shabbily dressed youth going round begging for food; he felt pity for the youth and made him a samanera. The young samanera left his old clothes and his begging plate on the fork of a tree. When he became a bhikkhu he was known as Pilotikatissa. As a bhikkhu, he did not have to worry about food and clothing as he was in affluent circumstances. Yet, sometimes he did not feel happy in his life as a bhikkhu and thought of going back to the life of a lay man. Whenever he had this feeling, he would go back to that tree where he had left his old clothes and his plate. There, at the foot of the tree, he would put this question to himself, "Oh shameless one! Do you want to leave the place where you are fed well and dressed well? Do you still want to put on these shabby clothes and go begging again with this old plate in your hand?" Thus, he would rebuke himself, and after calming down, he would go back to the monastery.

After two or three days, again, he felt like leaving the monastic life of a bhikkhu, and again, he went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate. After asking himself the same old question and having been reminded of the wretchedness of his old life, he returned to the monastery. This was repeated many times. When other bhikkhus asked him why he often went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate, he told them that he went to see his teacher[1]. Thus keeping his mind on his old clothes as the subject of meditation, he came to realize the true nature of the aggregates of the khandhas (i.e., anicca, dukkha, anatta), and eventually he became an arahat. Then, he stopped going to the tree. Other bhikkhus noticing that Pilotikatissa had stopped going to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate asked him, "Why don't you go to your teacher any more?" To them, he answered, "When I had the need, I had to go to him; but there is no need for me to go to him now." When the bhikkhus heard his reply, they took him to see the Buddha. When they came to his presence they said, "Venerable Sir! This bhikkhu claims that he has attained arahatship; he must be telling lies." But the Buddha refuted them, and said, "Bhikkhus! Pilotikatissa is not telling lies, he speaks the truth. Though he had relationship with his teacher previously, now he has no relationship whatsoever with his teacher. Thera Pilotikatissa has instructed himself to differentiate right and wrong causes and to discern the true nature of things. He has now become an arahat, and so there is no further connection between him and his teacher."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 143 Rare in this world is the kind of person who out of a sense of shame restrains from doing evil and keeps himself awake like a good horse that gives no cause to be whipped.

Verse 144: Like a good horse stirred at a touch of the whip, be diligent and get alarmed by endless round of rebirths (i.e., samsara). By faith, morality, effort, concentration, discernment of the Dhamma, be endowed with knowledge and practice of morality, and with mindfulness, leave this immeasurable dukkha (of samsara) behind.
 1. teacher: here refers to Pilotika's old clothes and his begging plate; they are like a teacher to him because they imbued him with a deep sense of shame and put him on the right track.

As one can see, it's actually gratitude that kept Pilotikatissa on the right track, and it would be dangerous if he starts to think that he no longer owe any debt, feeling to be apparently free from more obligations, that could have lead him to abandon a good relationship.

So, once you see that you no longer go visit your "teacher" anymore (the one who forced you to stay on the right track) it would be wise to ask yourself if this is really already the right time to do it and if you already have learned the proper skill and wisdom so that you would never find yourself back with old torn clothes and rusty plate walking around sooner or later, ever since.

May all beings be able to develop and maintain great appreciation, great esteem for their good "teacher" and always see when the "whip got lifted" whenever the usual visit to him take place again and again.

Of course it's hard in times of stories like Krabat to see who is the real fools and who is the master of compassion at the end. Two days ago Atma read about a junior monk who had killed an elder who tried to lead him back on the right track. The murderer thought that the elder was doing this out of ill-will: telling him that it's not proper to hang around in cafes interacting with common people and seeking fun. By being carried away by highly tempting words, the junior monk followed Mara (his defilements) and drove a knife into "his father".

That is the result of assosiating with fools. Do not wait until a act like this happen to learn the lesson. Elderly are used to get "killed", so you would just harm youself in indulge and adopt the habits of outsiders by seeking relations with them.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 10:01:11 PM by Danilo »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Antw:Depts, but to whom?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 08:39:33 AM »
* Johann Since the last approach here came up while reflecting certain cases having come accross interfaith.org and devoted to supply such places like the owner Steve Pame, it would be goo, out of compassion to inform him about the talk, since my person lacks on possibilities for now.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 09:32:45 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Debts, but to whom?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 07:00:14 AM »
* Johann : Sadhu for correcting the OPs dirty spots Nyom Danilo

Today morning my person thought "where should my person share this sample", reflecting a "lesson" on debts toward Nibbana or world, cecently given.

Yesterday Upasaka Keomony attended my person on alms round. He had not eaten, actually wanted to by food and donate it, which was refused to be received.

As we came back, he gave all he had taken care before left, leaving my person take his meal. Thinking he might be scared, probably would prever it to buy his onw food, my person, after some winks, desided to make a share before, took the half of the alms bow aside and putted it downstairs on the steps.

Later, as he was up to leave, we had talked about debt toward world and toward Nibbana, also about the problem of food and it's need, he pointed on the food he had not touched. "Nyom, it would be good if you take it, since it has been sacrificed toward Nibbana, toward the tripple Gems. If you go down and prefer to order another, than you increase the debts to the world".

After he found out that my person eats only once, does not store food and that it was already enough, he told to eat it on the way. So he took a an old leave from a tree, took some rice on it and dedicated it to the devas and place-holder under the tree, removed some red-ants from the dishes and packed it in a bag.

If he either used it at least, or thought to give it away, or prefered to by more pleasant food at least... decided to make debts toward Nibbana or Mara, who knows.

It's not always that defilement try to display modestly but are actually after "win" or "win-win" ideas.

It's off course also of no good in cases where one might think "it's better to gain pleasure by increasing debts toward those who lead to a good". That is why there are often so many animals around places where monks and laypeople enjoy pleasur together, thinking on a "win-win" solution.

So if just after pleasure, aviod to use the Gems as givers of such, even there are some in robes but actually not toward the path.

This is by the way also the reason why such as Dhamma-dealer and Dhamma-consumer appear, paying and receiving in common ways of trade to bind to the world, and, yes, love to look for pets... cuddle and hug Mara where ever he appears.

This teaching should be also a reminder that a gift with a thought "well I can (will) organize my self another (or) better", when giving something does not reduce the pain on earth, does not lead toward Nibbana.

But if one instead of enjoyng sensual of unskilfull entertainment sacrifices that (without thinking," I will enjoy later") time or possession toward the Gems, that does neither make him poor in this world, nor in the next, but is directed toward beyond, here or at later time.

It is of no benefit if just Buddhadasas are left in this world, slaves of a secular Religion. For the Buddha and his Noble disciples do nor accept slaves at all. So they would become the followers of images and form believing that the objects of sense are the refuge to escape.

It goes deep and really releasing this topic and is dedicated to learn to catch the snake at it's very head, step by step.

Mudita and Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

  • Aramika
  • Regular Member / Normales Mitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +14/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Debts, but to whom?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2018, 04:25:06 AM »
Bhante, in another thread, regarding the means and tools to lend service and produce gifts out of generosity, you wrote:

If liking to use other means, ways... just be sure that they are either consciously given for that purpose or the own. If others would need to own certain tools as well, to work further, and it would require them to accumulate debts and dependency to third, it might be not the best way.

It's not clear to me how the use of a commercial third party service/product may incur in debt. Assuming that a commercial third party service/product was obtained through legal means (there is no break of precept) to produce a gift or lend a service for the practice of dana. In such situation, what/where is the debt? what/where is the dependecy?

« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 04:37:21 AM by Danilo »

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Debts, but to whom?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2018, 10:10:20 AM »
Sadhu for asking further Nyom Danilo .

Let my person try to give some samples, since it is a broad topic, especially in internet.

If someone, for example, wishes to give an recording and audio tool here, thought his wish is pure toward the Sangha (dwelling independent of debts toward the world by right conduct of receiving just what is given without strings) but he has neither the own skill not the merits/money (condition, paccaya) to give, is he able to?
No. He is only able to think "oh may the Sangha, for the wellfare of many be gifted" or "oh, may I be able to fill up the grap one day"

He could, of course sacrify time, either to accumulate the money or material of exchange to buy it free, or invest in merits, skills, to be able to write a program himself. Althought that there is much danger to make a lot of misconduct on the way, not to speak of posdible increase debt toward others, teacher for wordly gains, for expample, a monk not after gain in the world would not encourage you to take or make debts for the sake of giving, since even on one side would be win, there would be lose for you, increasing of debts to the world on the other side.
But for example, if one thinks "I will give up smoking, and the money obtained, I will use", then his whole way to fullfil his wish, in the way of using right means, skillful actions to obtain the desired, is dobble edged of merits.
Owned by him, and obtained by own rightouse effort, such is of great merits.

If he steals for expamle, for such, it's of fourfold demerit. Like killing a chicken to feed the monks: First his own deed. Secound that he made it out of wrong view that killing is good for good. Third that he possible involves the monks, receiving it unknowenly and increases, by their receiving his own wrong view, and forth, because others, knowing about it, would be endangered to act likewise or use it as means to blame the monks.
If a monk would encourage, order or approve such, it would be even multiply to eithfold demerit.

The same counts for debts. In regard of credits: given the are some giving away robs and ask for exchange to wear there tradmark on your body and you would accept such, ask for the rob and from now on in contract to weare a, lets say "I love google" banner. Althought you might be able to bear it, others would be pulled to google and fall into debts there even without having made merits.

Or if you could obtain  a rob with a Lamborghini logo for free and be bound not to remove it, it would be, that if a monk removes it after, might cause you to violate your contract, or if informed about it, either not able to receive it, since such would give a wrong impression if he wears "running messages" for worlds trade, or make a transgression by himself if removing it.

Sometimes debts are made in regard of credit or honor, either toward Mara or Nibbana, sometimes by requirement of material things.

So if willing to increase debts to make a gift, it's good to prove it in regard of it's strings and in which directions they pull. If, for example asking another monk, the monks, a good Sangha... if such and such tool would be avaliable for Sanghas use, there is less to fear (at least mental), if asking a trader or bandit, such could lead to much demerits, suffering and debts into wrong direction.

For example, Moritz wished to buy a word-app free for a year, to use it on this Sangha tablet my person uses. Even to be able to receive it, my person would have been required to get in contract with google play.
Or another sample: Crome, which was installed on this tablet. Sort ago my person was going after the programs suggesting to click for update. Now, thought, well it should be ok since given, my person faces warings "you need to register to google play to run it", meaning they had obiviously a § that alows them to chance from free to more and more bound.

And that's the whole issue with 99,5%of what is avaliable for free but also is bought, if looking into MS contracts. This internet world is so much bound to each other, that it is not easy to keep one self and others with ones share unbound or lead to it.

Another sample is the search engine for zze. As pointed out sometimes, there are solution which could be rightly obtained and given, but as soon as pointing out them, it's easy to fall into a transgression, for example "letting use money", on a mental level, getting involved in wordly issues.

So it's at least something you need to figure out by yourself in detail, either be observing reactions when giving certain thing, or later use (it might be that something is acceptable, but not useable at least: for example one gives a lamp with batteries and wonders later why not used, since the batteries are empty).

Also in smart ways of asking, like: "If somebody does such-and-such, gives such-und-such, would it be possible to receive, would it be conductive for the practice, would it make things easier or even a burden for the receiver?" Or: "How and when could one receive food, what would be obstacles?..."

Giving and receiving, of what is conductive for both, is nothing that can be made by fools in goid way, but requires a lot of wisdom on both sides to fall not in debt personally or by damaging others by doing it.

Wheras the world installs apps which optimize1 not to sacrifice ones possessions but use what ever "free", the optimal Dhamma-app would optimize to never use anything of others, third part, not given, repaid, energy (life) and simply block the use of such, if bound not given for Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, liberation and Nibbana.

There are for example wonderful tools avaliable, but since they are so strongly bound to third part, they require steady maintaining, update, service... and tousands of dangers, where as ZzE for example, simply html - pages do not require much, althought even the simple tools earlier given, are out of range. If giving something that needs a lot of maintaining or interaction in the world, it either needs to be clear that one binds himself long or that it might be soon no more useable for those abstaining from what is not given, or would require them to reduce more and more their main task why they went forth.

Again to generosity given for everyone free to take:

As even at times of the Buddha, there have been social institutions, non-profit, feeding everybody who comes, the Buddha rebuked those using such use of institutions, since not given personally toward the Sanghas members, not for liberation from the world, but allowed to make use of such "in emergency", for two or three times.

Now on internet there are even no real social non-profits avaliable, no cast off, and the usual to give at first place is not easy to see, not to speak of the hard controlled possibilities to make merits if one would wish to do so.

At least to conduct proper is not a question of legal (keeping wordly laws), since they all allow misconduct on certain scale, in mutual agreement or for the loos of others like animal or nature. In some countries and extrem in internet, its possible to make contracts "against good conduct", look at disclaimer of software. Such would never be possible for a building or even a lighter outside of this moral-less and strong careless realm of feeding.

Is stays a fact that even a spoon of rice from a poor person from his own single meal given with pure mind toward the worthy one it uncountable of more benefit as if one gives a billion heavy monastery with an impure heart, still after gains in the world and wrong view, not to speak of even the giant demerits of "Robin hoods" and encourager of doing bad for a good. In this scale here, they are not improper called killer of the Buddha rather then only chicken killer.

But all that is of course also a perfect field for defilements into the other direction, who easily tell "you would, if your would not be pure" or "just wait, maybe later, now you have to look for your own happiness first" or to even blame "it's because the bad others that I am restricted from doing merits".

So one should be sure that such as no possibility to do good, and by right means, is absolutly not sure. Sometimes one needs to give up a certain object and look if something different can be done. And if waiting for help, than it could be long or without having old fruits riping. Ones way out requires sacrifice of own, but never that of others, thats their merit or demerit and walking right, there is nothing to worry that those capable to join good work, join, if not, it's not bad to use all of the possibilities to make merits if leaving the doors open for others to take on it as well.

If the explaining was not conductive to point out what is not clear, it's the best way to find out by simply starting to do, just by the perfect means given to Ven. Rahul (Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone ), simple and not only limeless but also independent of the realms of existence.

In regard of Dhamma-Dana, it's not so that easier *click* *click* is most helpful, but to give access for those wishing to make merits, to active get involved. A concentration and working camp is different of a museum, show-stage, restaurant, yet at the same time it's not wrong if leaving it well adjusted like a museum behind, if ones task is done, not wrong to give a show of good ways like on a stage, and not wrong to serve other all around, but if any of the last requires wrong means, it's because the mind does not focus on good actions but on products, "realities" which are not Nibbana (freedom of any debt), release. If the tools handed over by the elders and great givers are used good, and kept in good condition, even if very slowly, many generations after are able to benefit by the left behind Dhamma Vinaya, mental and sensual visible right means, for their own liberation. The means for the Aschrams development, have been an left over kitchen knife, some throw away and burned pieces of wood and a rust bucket, and without anyone having fallen into depts, there are now two nice dwelling places and all what is required and since no debts can be left behind any time, since no strings attached, can be used by Noble Ones if passing by, or those following them.

Who ever thinks to give into would be good, can do, if not expecting something back with most benefit.

The same is here. What ever one is able to sacrifice toward Nibbana can be left behind here. Every thought of strategy beside only this, will bind back if not doing in the sphere in which one has gained certain liberality already. It's total wise just sacrifice of what is takes as own already and not wishing to gain to give at first place. By giving at first place the better tools will be gained naturally. Nobody meets at the tripple Gems to become bound to wordly matters, and if such is happening, and increase, then it's outside, if not pulling toward giving up struggle with the raw and after the refined, step by step.

There will be thousands of allurement on the way, when ever old creditors/lender will touch via eye, ear, nose... intelect "Come, it was much easier the way you used to gain pleasure. Why burden you self, come, eat."

Ultimative there are no others who can bind us, it's just because we give credits to the giver of not lasting things, and by receiving this pleasure, having got used to it over long long time, don't see the backwards, we have to come again and again, not because someone else forces us, because of indebt (upadana) to the sense and their objects, nurishing, entertaining, holding on them (upadana). Yet it is by proper use of proper food, proper entertaining, with proper aspiration that desire and debt toward food, entertaining can be abounded totally.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 10:41:21 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann





October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])


October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.


October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.


October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .


October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita


October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM


October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.


October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici


October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.


October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM


October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.


October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.


October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.


October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.


October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West


October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people


October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.


October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.


October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.


October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.


October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.


October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?


October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."


October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.


October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.


October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.


October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.


October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...


October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???


October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.


October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!


October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.


October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.


October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.


October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.


October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!


October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM


October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli


October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.


October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?


October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay


October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!


October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?


October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.


October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.


October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob


October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.


October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.


October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.


October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "

Show 50 latest