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Author Topic: Depts, but to whom?  (Read 836 times)

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Offline Johann

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Depts, but to whom?
« on: February 25, 2017, 05:58:35 AM »
Some days ago Atma asked the village priest who just socialized with two monks, eager to learn pali blessings with much notion to Brahmanic purposes: "What does Nyom think, which is better, which has release as option? If one accumulates depts torward kalyāṇamittāor worldlings?" He tried to escape the answer, while the Abbott quickly answered: "Its better to fall in dept in regard of Kalyāṇamittā" and then tried to make him the question understandable without taking him the need to give an own answer.
Atma asked once again: "If Nyom is hungry, needs food, and there are two people having rice, a kalyāṇamittā or a worldling, whom is better to ask in need, receive and make depts?"
He tried to escape another time and started to explain, arguing thinks like the good friend might not have food to share or is poor... so he was asked again and told that both are standig in front having a portion of rice left.
Then he answered: "Of course its better to take from a Noble person or one on the way to that." "Why", Atma asked. "Because he would not and never demant something not good for me." "Yes, if you are in dept with good friends, all you ciuld accumulate is certain pressure to do good, while the worldling would always pull you down and those depts are not easy to pay back without making depts on another worldy side."

Now people even they intellectually understand this actually do not like to get out of the circle if depts.

When we think on the Buddhas advices to his monks: "Better to eat hot iron balls as to receive a gift that demands a reward, not given free" (not a word by wird recitation, it might be found in the Dhammapada) it is really not a light thing to do such and would especially Monks block any kind of further development since he is caught and because he is actually not ble to pay back demants he either stayes slave for the "sponsors" or he starts to reduce all his virtue step by step making one transgression after the other to be able to do what givers are wanting.

And do not think its a monks issue, as it counts for lay people as well. Take from wordlings just what you are able to give back or start to let go of desires. If you are gifted to receive pure gifts by even Noble persons or those on the way, take them happy to have now a real good dept and nothing to fear out of it aside of thing become really better.

Atma thought to share his thoughts since he just came across the truth of less people with less dust in the eyes.
"We prefer google and take CCs and download freely, since we love a more renouncing style of live and not so busy..."

There is no way to help them since people with much dust in the eyes mistake pleasure and easy consuming without seen burdens with renouncing. They hidde in "forests", "centers"... simply to enjoy sensuallity and becoming with people having the same inclination, like the same food and it still easy to use the worlds alms to provide with what might such a eating together community be not able to take "freely".

Its hard to renounce, its hard tofall not into depts with people willing to bind you and its hard to understand and see of whom it would be good to receive gifts.

And that is the reason why one of Atmas favorite Suttas is called "Seclusion and not straighter "Good friend" since renounciation and good friend, outwardly and inwardly is the same.
At the same time this Sutta shows that a good friend would not hide any of this lives ways for how could one find out if he/she is a person on the Way.
Who ever seeks for the ways and means of "villagers" does not keep all open but builds his "rat catching" small or big kingdom like the "Ratenfänger" playing his flute, is not open to discuss, not open to share his ups and downs, not open to let others see his faults, his ways how he gains and gives, such a person can not be traced as somebody who will not cause depts that will bind to the world.

Give up the illusion of free in this word and all that seems to be able to take without having remors for now will be equal burdenful as it seemed to be light.

Once really caught, there is no escape without a lot of suffering and tears.

Nobody can burden a person on the way with his wishes, so do not take that as an excuse of you defilements.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 09:22:51 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Antw:Depts, but to whom?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 06:25:45 AM »
What ever relationship you follow, that means on whom or which group you relate, seek entertainment, seek for nourishment, seek for joy, for livelihood, to that you accumulate depts.

So if you maintain such in reagard of defiled people, people with certain aims in the world, all thoses depts pull you in their direction.

If you maintain relation to Noble Ones, this too, the depts you owe, pull you in their direction.

If you for example like to accumulate knowledge, allthrough it might be the good Dhamma, you would hardly be able to actually make use of it for liberation. Why? Because you have accumulated depts to people seeking aims in the world and you will hardly find a way to get off this depts since they would not easily give you ways.

That is why one should not "think like a thief", if he actually knows their ways, since it's a matter of nature that thiefs would be caught.

Its really better to be patient and seek for support of the Noble Ones as to think being smart and walk to the outsiderdesiring what you want.

As for those not a little capable to distinct between the Noble Ones, those who follow them and all the various traders in Dhamma, there is just patient and observing with attention while living together. In this time, how ever, serve, serve, serve. Don't think you can just walk on if having accumulated depts.

Seldom is it, that one have Nissaya to the Noble Ones and those who follow them, and more seldom is it to have Upanissaya and maintain a relationship with them.

For its easier when greed arises, to just *click, click* let google or crowd-work make the job, let traders be honored for their trades, organize you "needs" on the various places of stackexchange.

In that way one stays a slave in this world and aside of singing the gospels of desire together, there is not much joy working on the fields of others, never gaining any substantial and a possibility to escape.

Once having entered the right path, you are no more able to fall away, the depts in regard the Noble Ones, Liberation, already stronger as the remaining dept for the world, knowing it or not, that is what is called Pathwinner. Having walked to its end, you gain the short bliss of the first fruit, which is really yours, without depts, accuring lates with death. Knowing or not, you are already on the track of the next path or fruit. Even if not resolved knowingly and putting effort into developing, next path or fruit is gained latest with death.

In the case you might observe that you still tend to the outsiders in regard of seeking relationship be really careful since you idea of having already gained path can easily turn out as Streamloser and from now on maybe bound to the many assemblings of Streamloser.

So you are wise, even if you are not capable to serve, capable to give in advanced, to take only from those already on track or following them. How ever, the most smartest way, if not able to figure out: serve, serve, serve in what ever relationship you may fall. That will serve your possibility to join eternally the community of the Noble Ones when ever it may be the time and occation.

Even if you are a person not capable to gain path or fruit in this life, if you have the luck to meet nevertheless a person or group you serve, as in adopting their ways by associating you take on their habits and not only that you accumulated depts in direction liberation you would easier find connection later on, meet and do without maybe really knowing about the merits you make.

When small children are trained here by their parents to pay respect or to give some alms into the bowl of a passing monk, althought its clear that those small bright little Devas not really know what they actually do, like mostly their parents as well, it causes my person always a lot of sympatic joy seeing how "blessed" they are.
Meeting other houses where children just learn wordings how to get right of the uneasiness of having a beggar at the front of the house, following their parents behaviour: "Ven. brother, when have not cooked rice jet ...today we are busy ...we eat already ... today we have nothing to give.", small as they are without shame and shy, like the little devas, but in another direction, it fills my person often with a lot of compassion (karuna), for not easy they would ever met the Dhamma in this life.

Work for you present and future condition, nourish good qualities stay with the basic suggested training, give reason/cause for for ground/fundation (upanissayapaccayena), for future better relationship.

All one could do for you for now, is telling you that again and again.

If you walk out in search for an answer and driven by desire and overestimation of your self "I can", crossing over the legs without respect and gratitude, and approach fools, then you would just fool you self since you simply work on cutting you off, nourishing the idea that the transcendent can be gained on ordinary paths in the world.

There is a nice story that might illustrate it a little. How ever, it could easily - looking the same - could be also the Bhikkhus suggesting case, or the case of Streamlosing.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Story of Thera Pilotikatissa 

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (143) and (144) of this book, with reference to Thera Pilotikatissa.

Once, Thera Ananda saw a shabbily dressed youth going round begging for food; he felt pity for the youth and made him a samanera. The young samanera left his old clothes and his begging plate on the fork of a tree. When he became a bhikkhu he was known as Pilotikatissa. As a bhikkhu, he did not have to worry about food and clothing as he was in affluent circumstances. Yet, sometimes he did not feel happy in his life as a bhikkhu and thought of going back to the life of a lay man. Whenever he had this feeling, he would go back to that tree where he had left his old clothes and his plate. There, at the foot of the tree, he would put this question to himself, "Oh shameless one! Do you want to leave the place where you are fed well and dressed well? Do you still want to put on these shabby clothes and go begging again with this old plate in your hand?" Thus, he would rebuke himself, and after calming down, he would go back to the monastery.

After two or three days, again, he felt like leaving the monastic life of a bhikkhu, and again, he went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate. After asking himself the same old question and having been reminded of the wretchedness of his old life, he returned to the monastery. This was repeated many times. When other bhikkhus asked him why he often went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate, he told them that he went to see his teacher[1]. Thus keeping his mind on his old clothes as the subject of meditation, he came to realize the true nature of the aggregates of the khandhas (i.e., anicca, dukkha, anatta), and eventually he became an arahat. Then, he stopped going to the tree. Other bhikkhus noticing that Pilotikatissa had stopped going to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate asked him, "Why don't you go to your teacher any more?" To them, he answered, "When I had the need, I had to go to him; but there is no need for me to go to him now." When the bhikkhus heard his reply, they took him to see the Buddha. When they came to his presence they said, "Venerable Sir! This bhikkhu claims that he has attained arahatship; he must be telling lies." But the Buddha refuted them, and said, "Bhikkhus! Pilotikatissa is not telling lies, he speaks the truth. Though he had relationship with his teacher previously, now he has no relationship whatsoever with his teacher. Thera Pilotikatissa has instructed himself to differentiate right and wrong causes and to discern the true nature of things. He has now become an arahat, and so there is no further connection between him and his teacher."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 143 Rare in this world is the kind of person who out of a sense of shame restrains from doing evil and keeps himself awake like a good horse that gives no cause to be whipped.

Verse 144: Like a good horse stirred at a touch of the whip, be diligent and get alarmed by endless round of rebirths (i.e., samsara). By faith, morality, effort, concentration, discernment of the Dhamma, be endowed with knowledge and practice of morality, and with mindfulness, leave this immeasurable dukkha (of samsara) behind.
 1. teacher: here refers to Pilotika's old clothes and his begging plate; they are like a teacher to him because they imbued him with a deep sense of shame and put him on the right track.

As one can see, its actually gratitude that keeps on one track one found, and it's the danger in thinking that one does not have depts any more, feeling maybe temporary above and beyound obligations, that one would leave good relationship behind.

So once you see that you start to do no more approach you "teacher" that what forced you staying on track, you'd be wise to think if its already the time and if you already have learned the skill so that you would never find your self back with old broken clothes and rusty plate walking around sooner or later, like ever since.

May all beings be able to develop and maintain great love great attachment to their good teacher and always see when the "whip got lifted" when habitual return again and again.

Its of course hard in times of stories like Krabat to see the real fools and the masters compassion at the end. Two days ago Atma read about a junior monk having killed an elder who tried to bend him back on track but thinking that he does it out of ill-will, in telling him its not proper to hang around in cafes socialize with normal people and seeking fun, with strong words, he followed Mara (his defilements) and drove a knife into "his father".

That is the result of assosiating with fools. Do not wait for having a lesson on act like this young monk. Elderly are used to get "killed", so you would just harm you self in bending to and addopt the habits of outsiders by seeking relation with them.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 05:37:30 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Antw:Depts, but to whom?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 08:39:33 AM »
* Johann Since the last approach here came up while reflecting certain cases having come accross interfaith.org and devoted to supply such places like the owner Steve Pame, it would be goo, out of compassion to inform him about the talk, since my person lacks on possibilities for now.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 09:32:45 AM by Johann »
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