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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Pesala's indirect suggestion to give no alms to not meditating monks  (Read 395 times)

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Offline Johann

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Again, when ever a lay person goes in the right direction of thought and has obiviously more virtues as Pesala, he cuts of the confidence of people having gained what is not easy to gain.

Quote from: maranadhammomhi
I live in San Francisco, California. The only Theravādin temple here is Wat San Fran Dhammaram, which was founded by Acariya Thoon Khippapanyo.

http://watsanfran.org/about-us/

There are a few resident monastics there. I went there a couple months ago to ask about alms-giving & had a short talk with one of the monks. He told me they don't meditate...I was taken aback by this...his explanation was that their teacher emphasized right view above everything else, that people apparently are rarely helped by meditation, & that many people in the suttas attained realization without meditating. I haven't gone back since & have not given alms, I do not feel like they are practicing as monastics should. But I am worried I am potentially creating unwholesome kamma by, as a lay person, judging them to not be 'real' recluses & monks...they were extremely kind & hospitable...the center seems like it's a Thai cultural center as much as or more than a Buddhist center but they give Dhamma talks & host the events you'd expect a temple to have...should I give them alms anyway?

It's actually not so a fault to donate to outsiders, its even suggesed to give to the Sangha (keeping that object in mind), since how could an outsider, like Pesala, know of whom is in?

But its really a fault to listen to outsiders, if they do not simple repeat of what the Buddha had told.

Right-view is certainly vital, especially the right-view that realisation comes about through practising meditation, not without it. Those many people in the Suttas who gained realisation just by listening to a short or detailed teaching had practised meditation intensively in previous lives (like Bāhiya Dārucirya who gained it faster than anyone else), so they could gain insight and Path Knowledge rapidly.

Others, even during the Buddha's time, had to practice for half a day, one day, seven days, seven weeks, seven months, or seven years to attain the paths (as it says in the conclusion of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta).

Of the Four Type of Capacity for Path Attainment, only the latter two are said to remain nowadays.

Not only that Satipaṭṭhāna is not a matter of sitting, and the focus on gaining right view is actually the only good practice it is that dwelling heedless (if even) would not tell that one is not on the track or even an insider, a Noble One.

More and clear words on this, see: Nandiya Sutta: To Nandiya and comments.

As for those thinking that just sitting with closed eyes are the only worthy of gifts would maybe have good chances to gain good merits in donating to cats, if such would be right.

Since there is less chance to keep Pesala away from his habits, it would be how ever importand to inform the lay person and to set a "rebuke" there, to do not cause people to fall from saddha and good mind states.

At least, my person, in this case, has never heard or seen that Ven. Ajahn Thoon Khippapanyo holds on signs for wrong view or teaches such.

Pointless how those "western" monks with closed eyes misslead a whole sociaty by having in this way no view of what was taught by the Buddha at all.

Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Antw:Pesala's indirect suggestion to give no alms to not meditating monks
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017, 01:44:05 PM »
Sadhu! But its pointless if nobody is able to quieten this foolish "monk", who in regard of his amount of right view and disceditating of monks who focus on right view, by suggessing even this list :

The Three Types of Monks Defined
Should One Avoid Shameless and Immoral Monks?
Should One Honour Shameless and Immoral Monks?
Should One Worship Shameless and Immoral Monks?
Should One Criticise Shameless and Immoral Monks?
Can A Shameless Monk Become Scrupulous?
Should Lay Persons Learn the Vinaya?
The Four Purifying Moralities
What Are the Effects of Transgressing Morality?
What Are the Factors of Saṅghikadāna?
Cultivating A Skilful Attitude

...totaly emphasizes by him self the windmills he sees.

As for the poor lay people over there, equal meet each other tend to one and another. Small chances... that someone sees the need to step out.

Never try to learn anything from Western, Modern monks living in the West, or have not just cutted of all attachments to ordinary thinking. Have not seen one who sticks to the three Gems till now. There is a reason why they are not able to live where they would actually belong.

When one thinks on the Kamma he did, does and will further do... even sendig a lot of metta could not help him and those "bound" to him.

Good texts, there, but how could a fool distinguish between those things...

Quote from: from the Book
Due to lack of knowledge, unwise lay people will slander monks, shameless monks will abuse scrupulous monks, scrupulous monks will have ill-will towards shameless monks, and many may fall into hell.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 02:00:57 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Antw:Pesala's indirect suggestion to give no alms to not meditating monks
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017, 02:14:22 PM »
Actualy it really does not make sence to waste time and try to help people out to do not wrong.

As told in the good books fools today hold on: just leave places where wrong view is celerbrated.

And if you are a person who has to much of karuna, even aviod to take a look from far there. Things are never uncomfortable if simply letting go, when you duty has been done in such societies, leaving you proper portion of metta behind.

DW will never become a place where generosity and honest moral are uphold, neither a place where people respect respect worthy, going forth or parents.

Its currupted and lost, lay people like a like their monks. Its not supprising that there is a strong connection to sutta central and other destructors of the Buddhas heritage.

Wrong Samádhi Causes Unwitting Deviations

To practice concentration without correct understanding may lead to wrong concentration, from which the person develops abnormal perceptions, the so-called vipassanupakkilesa. You may have heard that samádhi can cause mental abnormality. When it happens, all perceptions arising from the wrong samádhi are abnormal. This is the case when the practice is without wisdom, bringing about misunderstanding in the mind.

I would like to give three suggestions to prevent such abnormality:...

Actually Ajahn Thoon would have the same attitude like Pesalas teacher, but there is the spoon simile in Dhp.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 02:42:12 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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