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Talkbox

Like when enter or join, a shrine, another's sphere, or back: good for greating, bye, veneration, short talks, quick help. Some infos on regards .


2024 Mar 18 21:42:50
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 18 19:43:59
Dhammañāṇa: Mudita, Nyom.

2024 Mar 18 19:36:35
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Undertaking this Sila day at my best.

2024 Mar 18 06:17:10
Dhammañāṇa: Those who undertake the Sila day today: may it be of much metta.

2024 Mar 18 02:16:41
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 17 21:09:31
អរិយវង្ស: 🚬🚬🚬

2024 Mar 17 06:30:53
Dhammañāṇa: Metta-full Sila day, those after it today.

2024 Mar 17 00:02:34
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 11 09:16:04
Dhammañāṇa: Once totally caught by google, AI and machines, every door has been closed for long, long term.

2024 Mar 11 09:14:04
Dhammañāṇa: People at large just wait that another would do his/her duty. Once a slight door to run back, they are gone. By going again just for debts, the wheel of running away turns on.

2024 Mar 10 18:59:10
Dhammañāṇa: Less are those who don't use the higher Dhamma not for defilement-defence, less those who don't throw the basics away and turn back to sensuality "with ease".

2024 Mar 10 06:51:11
Dhammañāṇa: A auspicious new-moon Uposatha for those observing it today.

2024 Mar 09 06:34:39
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed New-moon Uposatha, and birth reminder day of a monarchy of wonders.

2024 Mar 08 21:39:54
Dhammañāṇa: The best way to keep an Ashram silent is to put always duties and Sila high. If wishing it populated, put meditation (eating) on the first place.

2024 Mar 03 21:27:27
Dhammañāṇa: May those undertaking the Sila day today, spend it off in best ways, similar those who go after the days purpose tomorrow.

2024 Feb 25 22:10:33
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 24 06:42:35
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Māgha Pūjā and Full moon Uposatha with much reason for good recallings of goodness.

2024 Feb 24 01:50:55
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 23 06:39:57
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Feb 23 00:19:58
blazer: Taken flu again... at least leg pain has been better managed since many weeks and it's the greatest benefit. Hope Bhante Dhammañāṇa is fine  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 01:06:43
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 00:02:37
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 17 18:47:31
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of todays Sila-day.

2024 Feb 17 18:46:59
Dhammañāṇa: Chau Marco, chau...

2024 Feb 16 23:32:59
blazer: Just ended important burocratic and medical stuff. I will check for a flight for Cambodia soon  _/\_

2024 Feb 09 16:08:32
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 12:17:31
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 06:42:17
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed New moon Uposatha and last day of the Chinese year of the rabbit, entering the Year of the Naga wisely.

2024 Feb 02 21:17:28
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 02 19:53:28
Dhammañāṇa: May all have the possibility to spend a pleasing rest of Sila day, having given goodness and spend a faultless day.

2024 Jan 26 14:40:25
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 25 10:02:46
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Full moon Uposatha.

2024 Jan 11 06:37:21
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 07 06:31:20
Dhammañāṇa: May many, by skilful deeds,  go for real and lasting independence today

2024 Jan 06 18:00:36
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 16:57:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 12:33:08
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila-day, full of metta in thoughts, speech and deeds.

2023 Dec 30 20:21:07
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 27 23:18:38
Dhammañāṇa: May the rest of a bright full moon Uposatha serve many as a blessed day of good deeds.

2023 Dec 26 23:12:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 24 16:52:50
Dhammañāṇa: May all who celebrated the birth of their prophet, declaring them his ideas of reaching the Brahma realm, spend peaceful days with family and reflect the goodness near around them, virtuous, generously.

2023 Dec 20 21:36:37
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 20 06:54:09
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by conducting in peacefull manners.

2023 Dec 12 23:45:24
blazer:  _/\_

2023 Dec 12 20:34:26
Dhammañāṇa: choice, yes  :)

2023 Dec 12 13:23:35
blazer: If meaning freedom of choice i understand and agree

2023 Dec 12 12:48:42
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 12 06:13:23
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a great New Moon Uposatha, following the conducts of the Arahats.

2023 Dec 10 12:51:16
Dhammañāṇa: The more freedom of joice, the more troubled in regard of what's right, what's wrong. My person does not say that people at large are prepared for freedom of joice even a little.

2023 Dec 10 10:59:42
blazer: Hope they eat more mindfully than how they talk. It is clear for the gross food, we had more than a talk about this topic. I have put so much effort in mindful eating at the temple, but when i was back i wanted more refined food. I was used to get a choice of more than 10 dishes every day

2023 Dec 10 06:57:44
Dhammañāṇa: A person eating on unskilled thoughts will last defiled, Nyom. Gross food does nothing for purification at all.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:58
blazer: I've had a couple of not nice experiences with monks that were not so pure in my opinion. They surely eat far better than me at temple.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:41
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 09 11:38:36
Dhammañāṇa: Spiritual prostitution, just another way of livelihood.

2023 Dec 05 20:59:38
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 27 14:47:22
អរិយវង្ស:   _/\_ _/\__/\_

2023 Nov 27 05:41:32
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Anapanasati- Fullmoon and reflect the goodness of Ven Sāriputta as well today.

2023 Nov 20 19:18:13
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 20 18:20:15
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 20 02:48:24
Moritz: Hello _/\_ Still possible to join: An-other Journey into the East 2023/24

2023 Nov 18 13:55:11
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 12 01:09:01
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Nov 12 00:45:21
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 19:42:10
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 07:17:02
Dhammañāṇa: សិលា​នាំ​ទៅ​រក​ឯករាជ្យ​នៃ​ជាតិ! សូមឱ្យមនុស្សជាច្រើនប្រារព្ធទិវាឯករាជ្យ(ពី)ជាតិ។

2023 Nov 09 07:06:56
Dhammañāṇa: Sila leads to independence of Jati! May many observe a conductive Independence day.

2023 Nov 07 00:54:02
Dhammañāṇa: Nyoum

2023 Nov 07 00:39:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 15:47:51
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 12:21:27
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila observation day today.

2023 Oct 30 15:17:36
Dhammañāṇa: It's common in to give up that what's given to do assist me toward release, common that seeking security in what binds.

2023 Oct 30 13:22:27
អរិយវង្ស: ព្រះអង្គ :) កូណាលុប delta chat ហើយ :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 23 18:56:09
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 22 20:36:01
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of this Sila-day.

2023 Oct 19 20:31:12
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom Sreyneang

2023 Oct 15 07:07:01
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 14 06:53:21
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a New moon Uposatha based on goodwill for all, find seclusion in the middle of family duties.

2023 Sep 29 07:35:30
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:23:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:03:11
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha and begin of the ancestor weeks by lived metta and virtue: lived gratitude toward all being, toward one self.

2023 Sep 22 22:07:43
Dhammañāṇa: If no rush turn toward reducing sensuality and make Silas the top of priority, it's to fear that an Atomic conflic will be chosen soon, in the battle of control of the "drugs".

2023 Sep 22 14:59:39
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 22 06:35:51
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Uposatha Observance on this Sila-day, by conducting similar the Arahats.

2023 Sep 16 19:29:27
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 16 19:29:13
blazer: Hello everyone! I've just come back home. I had a long trip and no sleep for more than 30 hours, but currently feel quite good. I've had a good experience, i'm happy. I've found out much inspiration and many ideas about the training and the holy life. I'll recollect and write about them as soon as i've taken some rest. Hope to find you all well and in good health  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 15 05:25:24
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 14 21:09:49
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of New moon Uposatha today (later as no connection before).

2023 Sep 10 01:55:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_?

2023 Sep 09 18:52:54
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 09 18:52:28
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 08 06:19:20
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by maintaining goodwill toward all, not only by deeds and speech, but with nine factors, incl. a mind full of metta.

2023 Sep 01 10:54:43
អរិយវង្ស: សាធុ សាធុ សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 01 09:21:09
Dhammañāṇa:  “This verse was stated by earlier worthy ones, fully self-awakened:    Freedom from disease: the foremost good fortune. Unbinding: the foremost ease. The eightfold: the foremost of paths going to the Deathless, Secure.

2023 Sep 01 09:19:23
Dhammañāṇa: 'Ārogyaparamā lābhā nibbānaṃ paramaṃ sukhaṃ, Aṭṭhaṅgiko ca maggānaṃ khemaṃ amatagāmina'nti.   អារោគ្យបរមា លាភា និព្ពានំ បរមំ សុខំ អដ្ថងិកោ ច មគ្គានំ ខេមំ អមតគាមិន នតិ។  លាភទាំងឡាយ មានការមិនមានរោគ ដ៏ប្រសើរបំផុត ព្រះនិព្វាន ជាសុខដ៏ឧត្តម មគ្គប្រកបដោយអង្គ៨ ដ៏ក្សេមក្សាន្តជាងមគ្គទាំងឡាយ សម្រាប់ដំណើរ ទៅកាន់​ព្រះនិព្វាន ឈ្មោះអមតៈ។

2023 Aug 31 06:30:11
អរិយវង្ស: សាធុ សាធុ សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Aug 31 06:08:15
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Fullmoon Uposatha, following the Arahats conducts.

2023 Aug 30 20:19:25
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Aug 30 18:39:38
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Aug 24 19:56:43
Dhammañāṇa: Sadhu, Sadhu and mudita

2023 Aug 24 19:45:08
អរិយវង្ស: កូណា បាននាំគ្រួសាររក្សាសីល8ក្នុងថ្ងៃនេះ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_😌

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Author Topic: [Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation  (Read 3452 times)

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Offline Dhammañāṇa

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  • (Samana Johann)
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
[Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation
« on: April 09, 2017, 11:19:27 PM »
Ehrenwerte Mitglieder der Sangha,

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Samana nimmt an, dass es für die Ehrwürdigen passend erscheint, hier diese Belehrung im Bezug auf die Themenfrage zu geben. Mögen die Ehrenwerten Herren Ungelegenheit oder etwaige Fehler aus Mitgefühl tadeln, wenn deren Gegenständlichkeit Ihnen erkennbar wird.

 *sgift*

Werte Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(ini),
Gäste und Mitleser.


Meine Person eine Diskussion auf Buddhaland, über Pfad und Früchte , "(für)wahr" genommen, und sich in die Diskussion indirekt, direkt aufwartend, etwas eingebracht, hält es für vielleicht hilfreich hier ein paar Dinge aufzuzeigen.

Speziell im Westen, und überall wo das "Geschäft" mit Laien boomt, wird gerne behauptet, daß man nur mit langer und steter Sitzmeditation, den Pfad des Nicht-mehr-abfallen-könnens, der Heiligkeit, erreicht. Die "Zufälligkeit" dieser Konstellation sei einmal dahingestellt... Die für gewöhnliche Fragwürdigkeit und vor allem Vertrauenswürdigkeit im Bezugauf reine Laienunternehmungen, in den Lebensunterhalt hineingehend, ebenfalls in dieser Belichtung einmal so dahingestellt.

Wie alle  wissen, denkt Atma, beginnt der Achtfache Pfad mit Rechter Ansicht. Rechte Ansicht mag ein Paccekabuddhakanditat erlangen, aber jeder andere benötigt dazu zwei Dinge, wobei das erste ein äußerer Einfluß ist:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Die Stimme

"Bhikkhus, dies sind die zwei Ursachen für das Aufkommen von falscher Sichtweise. Welche zwei? Die Stimme anderer [1 ] und unpassende Aufmerksamkeit. Dies sind die zwei Ursachen für das Aufkommen von falscher Sichtweise."

"Bhikkhus, da sind diese zwei Ursachen für das Aufkommen von rechter Sichtweise. Welche zwei? Die Stimme anderer und passende Aufmerksamkeit. Dies sind die zwei Ursachen für das Aufkommen von rechter Sichtweise.

Wie der Kommentar des Übersetzers dazu gut erklärt, benötigt es nicht etwas einen Buddha, oder einen Noblen, der spricht, sondern der Aufnahme der Guten Lehre.

Die zweite Sache ist yonisomanasikāra, passende Aufmerksamkeit, Aufmerksamkeit und Reflektieren, im Wesentlichen Samādhī (Samlung) und Satī (Achtsamkeit, in Erinnerung behalten), um mit dem (Für)Wahrnehmen der Lehre, den Geist dorthin zu bringen, was Worte vermitteln, sprich es sich dabei ansehen.
So als ob jemand vom Bestäuben der Blüte durch eine Biene erzählt, dabei auf eine Biene in Aktion deutet, und der Empfangende, Wort und Bild mitverfolgt und Vertrauen in die Lehre, die Wahrheiten, in den Lehrer und seine gut folgenden Schüler gewinnt. Um nicht zu glauben, daß dieses ein dreifacher Pfad sei, indem der Pfad gewonnen wird: in der Zeit zwischen dem vertrauensvollen Zuhören und sind im Erfolgsfall, wenn Rute dabei abgelegt, alle anderen Pfadfaktoren vorhanden.

Damit gewinnt der, zu diesem Zeitpunkt des Empfangens der Lehre, den Pfad, die Übung ausübende, Weisheit durch Höhren sotāpannā (auf dem Weg zu vollständigem Wissen). Die Frucht mag entweder im Anschluß, durch eingehende Erfahrung, oder zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt, wenn die Gelegenheit der Erfahrung aufkommt, verwirklicht werden. Der Tod oder andere Erreignissen, in denen die drei Merkmale gut aufgenommen werden, und dazu zählt sicherlich auch Sitz, Geh, Steh-, Liegeübung in der Achtsamkeit auf die Bezugsrahmen (Körper, Gefühl, Geist, Erscheinungen), sind gewöhnliche Momente in denen Fruchtung aufkommt.

Wichtig für das Erlangen von Pfad oder Frucht ist neben der deutlichen (Für)Wahrnehmung von aniccaṃ, dukkhaṃ, anattaṃ, das Feststellen der Sinnlosigkeit im Kreislauf des Werdens, sprich ein deutlich werden von Dukkha in allen Dingen. Dieses mag sich irgendwann nach Pfad und wohl unmittelbarer vor Fruchtung, wahrtun. Dieses zu erzwingen, genauso wie, das Erlangen eines Pfades zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt ist nicht möglich, doch kann durch rechte Anstrengung und nachhaltigem Warten der Pfadelemente erhöht angezielt und verdichtet werden.

Wie auch immer, ist das Hören und Verstehen der Lehre wichtig, und um nicht nur Theorie zu bekommen, sondern auch die passenden Gelegenheiten (Bienen fliegen ja nicht auf Kommando ins Beobachtungsbild), ist der Umgang mit Vorausgegangenen, in der Regel den Mönchen, unumgänglich, um es zu passenden Gelegenheiten kommen zu lassen.

Erst wenn Sie wahrlich Pfad gewonnen haben, den Pfad der Ausübung wirklich kennen, können Sie sich zurückziehen und für sich üben, solange da rechte Ansicht sozudagen aufrecht erhalten werden kann.

In diesem Zusammenhang möchte Atma anführen, daß das übliche angebotene Meditieren, meist völlig oder mit bestäubter Einweisung in die Wahrheit durch Außenseiter, meist nicht viel bringt, außer vielleicht etwas Verdienste und Üben in Konzentration. Solch ein Uneingewiesener kann gut und gerne, vielleicht auch falsch eingewiesen, basierend auf falscher Ansicht, sich ganz kräftige Verwirrung und manā (Stolz oder Besser Verwirrung) anzüchten und sich gar für lange vom Pfad abschneiden.

Hatte jemand gut und locker, ohne viel "Vipassanā" Sammlung geübt und mag er auf die Stimme treffen, so mag einem solchen passende Aufmerksamkeit leichter fallen. Wurde er fasch eingewiesen, wurde er statt auf Blüte und Stengel und Bienes zu achten, stets aus die Blütenblätter sehen, sooft er es auch erklärt bekommen mag.

So ist das Pfadgewinnen dem Akt der Bestäubung gleich, und die Fruchtung erfolgt mit der Frucht.

Die einzelnen Pfade und Fruchtungen, haben immer auch vorangehend Rechte Sichtweise, sprich durch Stimme (Wahrnehmen der Guten Lehre, durch Hören, Lesen, in Erinnerung Rufen, des Gehörten, Gelesene) und dazugehörig passende Aufmerksamkeit.

Nocheinmal, das Vertreten der Ansicht, man müsse für die Erlangung des Pfades Sitzen, ist etwas, daß nur in "in Symbiose lebenden Gemeinschaften von Mönchen und Laien" (um hier eine nicht ganz passende Lebensweise/Unterhalt von Mönchen, mit gerade moderner Umschreibung, aufzuzeigen) vor, und gibt es in diesem Ausmaß erst seit wenigen Jahren. Sicherlich boomt es...

Um noch auf ein paar Dinge dort einzugehen:

Mirco
zwar wird gesagt, jemand mit entsprechender Veranlagung könne durch weises Erwägen der Lehre (ohne Meditationspraxis) Stromeintritt erleben, weil es zu Buddha's Zeiten wohl dem Ehrw. Sariputta beim genauen Hören und Verstehen eines Lehrvortrags des Buddha so ergangen ist. Einbilden und mich drauf verlassen, dass ich zu diesen Kandidaten gehöre, würde ich mich aber nicht

Da sind unzählige Lehrreden, in denen durch das Hören zur passenden Zeit, sprich Aufmerksamkeit, alle Arten von Pfade und Früchten erlangt wurden, und man darf dabei nicht auf die wahre Zufluchtnahme vergessen, und relativ wenige, in denen die Leute erst in Zurückgezogenheit Frucht gewonnen haben.

Weite Verbreitung dieser Annahme, daß heute Leute nicht mehr fähig sind passende Aufmerksamkeit zu haben, stützt sich auf Zeitprognossen aus den Kommentaren. Die Möglichkeiten sind jedoch nicht Sternzeichen, sondern tatenbedingt der einzelnen Personen. Sicherlich ist der Wegfall von mehr und mehr Sangha damit, im Bezug auf Stimme und passende Aufwartung, ebenfalls Resultate aus dem Kamma der Einzelnen, die die Grundlagen nähren oder verhungern lassen, in Selbstgefälligkeit gestützt von Symbiosianten.

Nochmal, ohne Recht Ansicht kommt es nie zu rechter Meditationspraxis, und es gibt keinerlei Hinweis, daß jemals jemand (außer Paccekabuddhas, inkl.Buddhas natürlich) Frucht oder Pfad gewonnen hätten. Die Beispiele des gewonnenen Vermögens der Langzeit"praktiker", mit, weiß-Buddha-wieviel-Jahren, Meditationspraxis, in Nähe und Ferne, spiegeln das wohl gut wieder.

Quote from: Mirco
Aber Diskussionen im Internet zu einer solch speziellen, unwesentlichen Einzelheit? Immerhin beschäftigst du dich so im weitesten Sinne mit der Lehre des Buddha und der Sangha anstelle z.B. mit den Lottozahlen. Von daher hat es schon einen Anteil am spirituellen Fortschritt. Große Erwartungen hegte ich an deiner Stelle nicht...

"mit der Sangha..." nicht vielerorts und der "Lehre Buddhas" dem entsprechend.

Mit solchem Feedback, wahrlich..."keine großen Erwartungen hegbar". Sicherlich sind solch Diskussionen wichtig und gut, und das Reflektieren zählt zu den Eigenschaften einer Noblen Person:

„Da erwägt ein Mönch, nachdem er sich in einen Wald, zum Fuße eines Baumes oder in eine leere Hütte begeben hat, folgendes: ‚Ist in mir noch irgendeine Besessenheit, die noch nicht überwunden wurde und durch die mein besessener Geist daran gehindert wird, die Dinge so zu sehen und zu erkennen, wie sie zustande gekommen sind?’ Wenn ein Mönch von Sinnesgier besessen ist, dann ist sein Geist besessen. Wenn er von Böswilligkeit besessen ist ... Wenn er von Trägheit und Mattheit besessen ist ... Wenn er von Rastlosigkeit und Sorge besessen ist ... Wenn er von Zweifel besessen ist ... Wenn ein Mönch ganz in Spekulationen über diese Welt versunken ist ... Wenn ein Mönch ganz in Spekulationen über die andere Welt versunken ist ... Wenn ein Mönch sich dem Streiten und Zanken hingibt und sich auf verbale Auseinandersetzungen einlässt, andere mit seinen Worten verletzt, dann ist sein Geist besessen.“

„Er erkennt: ‚In mir ist keine Besessenheit, die noch nicht überwunden wurde und durch die mein besessener Geist daran gehindert wird, die Dinge nicht so zu sehen und zu erkennen, wie sie zustande gekommen sind. Mein Geist ist gut auf das Erwachen zu den Wahrheiten ausgerichtet.’ Dies ist das erste Wissen, das von ihm erlangt wird, das edel und überweltlich ist und nichts mit dem des in Unkenntnis lebenden Weltmenschen gemeinsam hat.“

„Weiterhin erwägt ein Schüler der Edlen folgendermaßen: ‚Wenn ich diese Ansicht kultiviere, entfalte und ihr folge, werde ich dann für mich selbst Ruhe erlangen, werde ich für mich selbst Gelassenheit erlangen?’“

„Er erkennt: ‚Wenn ich diese Ansicht kultiviere, entfalte und ihr folge, dann erlange ich für mich selbst Ruhe, dann erlange ich für mich selbst Gelassenheit.’ Dies ist das zweite Wissen, das von ihm erlangt wird, das edel und überweltlich ist und nichts mit dem des in Unkenntnis lebenden Weltmenschen gemeinsam hat.“

„Weiterhin erwägt ein Schüler der Edlen folgendermaßen: ‚Gibt es da außerhalb [dieses Dhamma und dieser Schulung] andere Asketen und Brahmanen, die dieselbe Art von Ansicht besitzen, wie ich sie besitze?’“

„Er erkennt: ‚Es gibt da außerhalb [dieser Lehre des Buddha] keine anderen Asketen und Brahmanen, die die dieselbe Art von Ansicht besitzen, wie ich sie besitze.’ Dies ist das dritte Wissen, das von ihm erlangt wird, das edel und überweltlich ist und nichts mit dem des in Unkenntnis lebenden Weltmenschen gemeinsam hat.“

„Weiterhin erwägt ein Schüler der Edlen folgendermaßen: ‚Besitze ich den Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht?’ Was ist der Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht? Dies ist der Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht: Obwohl er möglicherweise einen Regelverstoß begehen mag, für den eine Maßnahme der Wiedergutmachung festgelegt wurde, bekennt er ihn unverzüglich, enthüllt ihn, offenbart ihn dem Lehrer oder den weisen Gefährten im heiligen Leben; nachdem er dies getan hat, übt er sich künftig in Zurückhaltung. Gerade so, wie ein junges, zartes Kleinkind, das, auf seinem Rücken liegend, sofort zurückzuckt, wenn es mit seiner Hand oder seinem Fuß ein glühendes Stück Holzkohle berührt, ist der Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht: Obwohl er möglicherweise einen Regelverstoß begehen mag, für den eine Maßnahme der Wiedergutmachung festgelegt wurde, bekennt er ihn unverzüglich, enthüllt ihn, offenbart ihn dem Lehrer oder den weisen Gefährten im heiligen Leben. Nachdem er dies getan hat, übt er sich künftig in Zurückhaltung.“

„Er erkennt: ‚Ich besitze den Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht.’ Dies ist das vierte Wissen, das von ihm erlangt wird, das edel und überweltlich ist und nichts mit dem des in Unkenntnis lebenden Weltmenschen gemeinsam hat.“

„Weiterhin erwägt ein Schüler der Edlen folgendermaßen: ‚Besitze ich den Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht?’ Was ist der Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht? Dies ist der Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht: Obwohl er in verschiedenen Angelegenheiten für seine Gefährten im heiligen Leben aktiv sein mag, nimmt er große Rücksicht auf die höhere Tugendübung, auf die Übung der höheren Geistesschulung und die Übung in höherer Weisheit. Gerade so wie eine Kuh mit einem neugeborenen Kalb beim Grasen ihr Kalb im Auge behält, so ist auch der Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht: Obwohl er in verschiedenen Angelegenheiten für seine Gefährten im heiligen Leben aktiv sein mag, nimmt er große Rücksicht auf die höhere Tugendübung, auf die Übung der höheren Geistesschulung und die Übung in höherer Weisheit.“

„Er erkennt: ‚Ich besitze den Charakter eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht.’ Dies ist das fünfte Wissen, das von ihm erlangt wird, das edel und überweltlich ist und nichts mit dem des in Unkenntnis lebenden Weltmenschen gemeinsam hat.“

„Weiterhin erwägt ein Schüler der Edlen folgendermaßen: ‚Besitze ich die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht?’ Was ist die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht? Dies ist die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht: Wenn der vom Tathāgata verkündete Dhamma und dessen Schulung gelehrt werden, beachtet er sie, schenkt ihr Aufmerksamkeit, beschäftigt er sich damit mit ganzem Herzen, ist ganz begierig, den Dhamma zu hören.“

„Er erkennt: ‚Ich besitze die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht.’ Dies ist das sechste Wissen, das von ihm erlangt wird, das edel und überweltlich ist und nichts mit dem des in Unkenntnis lebenden Weltmenschen gemeinsam hat.“

„Weiterhin erwägt ein Schüler der Edlen folgendermaßen: ‚Besitze ich die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht?’ Was ist die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht? Dies ist die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht: Wenn der vom Tathāgata verkündete Dhamma und dessen Schulung gelehrt werden, dann erlangt er Verständnis und gewinnt die Freude, die mit dem Dhamma verbunden ist.“

„Er erkennt: ‚Ich besitze die Stärke eines Menschen mit vollendeter Ansicht.’ Dies ist das siebente Wissen, das von ihm erlangt wird, das edel und überweltlich ist und nichts mit dem des in Unkenntnis lebenden Weltmenschen gemeinsam hat.“

„Ein Schüler der Edlen, der auf solche Weise diese sieben Faktoren besitzt, hat den für die Verwirklichung der Frucht des Stromeintritts eigenen Charakter gut untersucht. Ein Schüler der Edlen, der auf solche Weise diese sieben Faktoren besitzt, besitzt die Frucht des Stromeintritts.“

— MN 48

Zum einen darüber reden, welches die Charaktere sind, und zum anderen auch von außen, direkt oder indirekt, Antworten: Kalyanamitta

Das scheint aber nur eine Erfindung der Kommentarliteratur zu sein, denn in den Lehrreden dagegen steht, dass für alle vier derselbe Pfad gilt:

Es handelt sich bei der angeführten Aufführung um Fruchterlangen, für immer Gefestiges, wie oben etwas erklärt. Die vier Paare oder acht Personen, kommen oft genung in den Lehrreden vor.

Quote from: accinca
kuckmal, Hier gibt's noch mehr Pfade:

"Das ist der zur Leidensauflösung führende Pfad' erkennt er der Wahrheit gemäß."
"Das ist der zur Wahnauflösung führende Pfad' erkennt er der Wahrheit gemäß."

Schon wieder zwei Pfade mehr.

Wie in vielen hatte Buddha, entsprechend den Ansprechen der Einzelnen, mehrere Ausdrücke und Zugänge für ein und das Selbe verwendet. Oft glaubt man hier verschiedene Dinge anzutreffen, oder verstehen zu müssen.
Soweit Atma dieses in diesem Bezug, vielleicht erleichternd, sehen kann, entspricht Leidensbefreiung hier dem Pfaderlangen, und Weisheitsbefreiung der Fruchterlangung.

Um hier abschließend nochmal deutlich zu machen was gut und besser als Lehrer anzusehen ist:
Lehrengelehrer eines Pitaka, zwei, drei, dann besser ein Meister der Vertiefung (bis dahin Weltlinge, Aussenseiter) dann in Abfolge die Noblen Personen bis zum Arahat, und selbst wenn diese vielleicht gerade "gewissenlos" verweilen, sind sie in jeder Hinsicht besser um selbst Pfad oder Frucht zu gewinnen:

Wird ein Mönch, der kein Stromeingetretener ist, als Aussenseiter gekannt?

Nicht nur ein Mönch, auch ein Laie, auf der Ebene der Perfektion. Hier das Ursprungssutta dieses "Aha's" auch gleich ins Deutsche übersetzt .

Das Dhamma ist nicht kompliziert, sobald man Vertrauen oder Wissen gewonnen hat. Denken sie nicht kompliziert, bauen sie auf das vertrauengewinnende Denken, geben Sie diesem alle Kraft, und dann vermag man das wahre Dhamma zu hören.

Mögen die Worte dem einen oder anderen hilfreich sein. Anumodana!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 02:57:38 AM by Sophorn »
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Antw:[Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation.
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2017, 07:24:52 PM »
Passend dazu:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Dieses wurde vom Befreiten gesagt, vom Arahat gesagt, so habe ich es gehört:: "Da sind diese drei Fähigkeiten. Welche drei? Die Fähigkeit 'ich bin daran zu wissen, was nun noch nicht letztlich gewußt', die Fähigkeit von letztlichem Wissen, die Fähigkeit von einem, der letztlich gewußt hat.[1] Dieses sind die drei Fähigkeiten."

Für einen Lerner in Übung
   dem geraden Pfad entlang:
   zuerst, das Wissen von Enden,
   dann,   unverzüglich,
      Erkenntnis;
   dann, von dem Enden
   der Fessel, Werden,
   ist da das Wissen,
      der Erkenntnis   einer befreit,
             der So:[2]

Einer in diesen Fähigkeiten vollendet,
       friedvoll,
    den friedlichen Zustand genießt,
       seinen letzten Körper tragend,
    hat Mara bezwungen
       zusammen mit seinem Roß.

 1. Entsprechend dem Kommentar, passt die erste Fähigkeit zur ersten Noblen Erlangung, dem Pfad des Stromeintritts; die zweite zu den nächsten sechs Erlangungen, von der Fruchtung des Stromeintritts, bis zum Pfad zur Arahatschaft; und die dritte, zur höchsten Erlangung, der Fruchtung der Arahatschaft.
 2. So (tadi): siehe Anmerkung zu §44.
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Antw:[Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation.
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2017, 11:12:29 PM »
Eine Fülle zum Thema Stromeintritt findet sich im Studienführer, basierend auf Suttas, In den Strom - Ein Studienführer über die erste Stufe des Erwachens . Und zum Thema "Stromaustreten hier vielleich auch nochmal dieses zur Erinnerung:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Agati Sutta: Vom Weg Abgekommen

Es gibt diese vier Art und Weisen vom Weg abzukommen. Welche vier?

Man kommt vom Weg ab durch Begierde. Man kommt vom Weg ab durch Abneigung.Man kommt vom Weg ab durch Verblendung. Man kommt vom Weg ab durch Angst.

"Diese sind die vier Art und Weisen vom Weg abzukommen."

Wenn man -
durch Begierde,
   Abneigung,
      Verblendung,
         Angst -
gegen das Dhamma verstößt,
nimmt die Ehre ab,
wie in den dunklen vierzehn Tagen
   der Mond.

"Es gibt diese vier Art und Weisen nicht vom Weg abzukommen. Welche vier?

Man kommt nicht vom Weg ab durch Begierde.Man kommt nicht vom Weg ab durch Abneigung.Man kommt nicht vom Weg ab durch Verblendung. Man kommt nicht vom Weg ab durch Angst.

"Diese sind die vier Art und Weisen nicht vom Weg abzukommen."

Wenn man nicht - 
durch Begierde,
   Abneigung,
      Verblendung,
         Angst -
gegen das Dhamma verstößt,
nimmt die Ehre zu
wie in den hellen vierzehn Tagen
   der Mond.


Anumodana!
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 02:58:37 AM »
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Sadhu. Sadhu. Sadhu.

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Antw:[Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 07:33:03 AM »
Hello maranadhammomhi!

I share your curiosity and have asked the very same questions recently, mainly triggred by this and this previous thread here .
I asked about these points in most detail in a German buddhist forum because the topic had come up in passing between two members there , and I received some partial and mostly speculative (or experiential but not theoretically clarified) answers.
A monk picked up and answered my questions here and here on this other forum/virtual monastery in some more definite partial detail (also in German).

I have still not gotten back to either of them. I am glad that you ask these questions here now in such precision so that I can try and gather, clarify (for myself) and share what answers I have received so far.

 
Quote
maranadhammomhi wrote:Of these, & similarly with other noble states, which is it that is impossible to fall back from?
It is my understanding that it is impossible to fall away from either. Once attained the path it is impossible to fall away from it , and one will attain the fruit at the latest at the end of the current lifetime (backed up by this sutta ).
(I had misunderstood this message by Ven. Pesala here previously and misinterpreted it as meaning that one could still fall off from the path - which was the reason that I expressed my perplexion here and on the German buddhist forum . But actually Ven. Pesala had clearly said only that "One developing the path leading to Stream-winning could fall-back." - But one developing the path is of course different from someone who has attained the path. Just mentioning this so longwinded here in case you might have had similar confusions.)

 
Quote
maranadhammomhi wrote:Which occurs along with the abandoning of the three lower fetters?
It is my understanding that abandoning (or weakening, in the case of sakadagami) of fetters occurs only with fruition (phala). (According to what German (and Austrian) buddhists have said, and what I think I have also read previously at some point in the suttas.)

 
Quote
maranadhammomhi wrote:What is the distinction? How does the former occur compared to the latter, in an experiential sense?
According to a German buddhist and ex-monk here , the path moment is characterized by a clear comprehension/experience of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta - or maybe only one of them), whereas the fruition moment is characterized by elimination of fetters.
However, I believe his understanding is not accurate, and he only related his experience and what he interpreted as magga and phala respectively, without knowing the clear definition and distinction.

According to this answer here by Ven. Johann (previously known as Hanzze or _hanzze in this forum, when he was still a layman) the path moment is "triggered" by some "complete coming together of all the path factors", which may occur most commonly while hearing the Dhamma and listening with appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) and "having laid down the rod" (i.e. being humble(d) and respectful, and thus really receptive at that moment), if I understand correctly. And the fruition moment (at which the fetters are destroyed [or weakened in the case of sakadagami]) can occur directly afterwards or at some later point (at the latest at the moment of death) when there is strong and clear enough mindfulness and concentration to comprehend the three characteristics in full depth.

I believe, the above-quoted (by santa100) explanation by Bhikkhu Bohdhi (and others who claim that path and fruition must always occur directly after another without delay, or even equate the two)
Quote
8NP wrote:The four supramundane paths each eliminate a certain layer of defilements. The first, the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga), cuts off the first three fetters, the coarsest of the set, eliminates them so they can never arise again.
is in so far inaccurate that the wasting away of fetters occurs only at the moment of fruition. I believe I have read this explicitly in the suttas, but I don't know the reference now. And, as previously mentioned there is sutta support for the case that the fruition moment occurs delayed in relation to the path moment up until to the moment of death.




Upasaka Moritz ,

as retold in the discussion in Dhammavaro s topic in "further intoduction" (to view one needs to be member). Seeing the three characteristics may give one certain bliss but at this point there is no work done, behind one. Only if that leads to abounding for desire in the world (that has of course different levels of recognising, starting by the lower fetters till the higherst in connection with it) one gains real, mature udayabbayañāṇa. If the danger and the meaningless in regard to Dhammas is not see, right view does not develop for now. When "Purity of insight about right and wrong path" arises, only then one has entered the path. Those who sees the three characteristics not in full, for all known phenomenas, might be called Dhamma-follower. Having found certain factual reason, their confidence is already strong enought to walk in direction of the path, yet not really on it. Althought those might even reject certain right path requirments and still hold on wrong.

Note that the plattern is actually the same for the smallest part of investigation as well in dimensions of livetimes.

So the coming together of real samvega is required to cause real pasada.

A person, althought in direction already, but not gained right view of the path, is still able to fall into lower realms, e.g. is capaple to do real wrong things. Devatata might be a sample, maybe (did not look deeper into it for now).
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:57:12 AM by Johann »
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 01:15:43 PM »
Coming back to the question who can fall off the path (better off direction Nibbana) and - the distintion is importand - can fall into lower realms.

As the Buddha mentioned on many occasions, neither a faith-follower, dhamma-follower, nor a path winner can fall off. The faith-follower and dhamma-follower, both at this time not really developed right view, meaning that they might even practice meditation by day and by night, e.g. following just rituals in this way, are still able to conduct a lot of unskillful deeds, even leading them into lower realms after death. So they are bound to this till they would meet right view and if they would not meet the good Dhamma, this could take a long, long time, sometimes till a later Buddha.

That is the reason why traditional young monks are lesser trained in focusing in sitting, but in learning and discussing to gain right view.
Once entered the Path, there is no more way back but only more or lesser forward Nibbana. From this time on, one would be able to make one self to an island with Dhamma (he/she already had gained, is already the own.

When ever one takes on to gain the next path, its again nessesary to develop right view in an amount siutable to the fruit. For such it is needed to be next admirable friends. Remember the last part of effacement:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

16. "Cunda, it is impossible that one who is himself sunk in the mire[1] should pull out another who is sunk in the mire. But it is possible, Cunda, that one not sunk in the mire himself should pull out another who is sunk in the mire.

"It is not possible, Cunda, that one who is himself not restrained, not disciplined and not quenched [as to his passions],[2] should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions].[3] But it is possible, Cunda, that one who is himself restrained, disciplined and fully quenched [as to his passions] should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions]. Even so, Cunda:[4]

(1) A person given to harmfulness has harmlessness by which to attain to the full quenching [of it].
(2) A person given to killing living beings has abstention from killing by which to attain to the full quenching [of it].
(3)-(43)...
(44) A person given to misapprehending according to his individual views, to holding on to them tenaciously and not discarding them easily, has non-misapprehension of individual views, non-holding on tenaciously and ease in discarding by which to attain the quenching [of them].
 1. Comy.: "In the Noble One's discipline, the 'mire' is a name for the five sense desires."
 2. Not fully quenched (aparinibbuto) Comy.: "with defilements not extinguished (anibbuta-kilesa)."
 3. Comy.: "There may be those who object that this is not correct because some come to penetration of the Dhamma (dhammabhisamaya, i.e., stream-entry) after listening to an exposition of the Teaching by monks or nuns, male or female lay followers, who are still worldlings (puthujjana; i.e., have not attained to any of the paths of sanctitude). Hence one who is still in the mire can pull out others. (Reply:) This should not be understood in that way. It is the Blessed One who here does the pulling out.
"Suppose there is a king who sends a letter to the border region, and the people there, unable to read it by themselves, have the letter read to them by another able to do it. Having learned of the contents, they respond with respect, knowing it as the king's order. But they do not think that it is the letter reader's order; he will receive praise only for his smooth and fluent reading of the letter. Similarly, even if preachers of the ability of Sariputta Thera expound the Dhamma, still they are just like readers of a letter written by another. Their sermon should truly be attributed to the Blessed One, like the decree to the king. The preachers, however, receive their limited praise, just because they expound the Dhamma with a smooth and fluent diction. Hence that statement in the discourse is correct."
 4. For the connection between the modes of effacement and the preceding simile, Comy. gives two alterative explanations:
(a) Just as one who is not sunk in the mire himself can pull others out of it, similarly he who is harmless himself can quench another's harmful volition.
(b) Just as only he who has quenched his own passions can help one who has not quenched them, similarly only a volition of harmlessness can quench a harmful volition.

Practical: If one is already a faith or dhamma follower, it is most nessesary to associate with people of right view (Noble Ones) or people who stick eager to it in ways of rituals to train one self in regard of gratitude, respect, generosity and still ritual worshipping of those who are conventional above one (since on would not know who is really worthy still being an run-a-mill-person).
After having gained path, one should seek for superior after having reached fruitation to make further progress. If not finding, one might stay with equal or, as the Buddha told, walk alone.

If one has not gained the first path, its not conductive to associate with worldlings and doubters. Many, if not most Dhamma discussion places have much common aspirations leaded by wrong view. Such signs are:

* Less till nothing usual in regard of worshipping and paying respect
* No attitude in regard of Dana
* No encouragement in meeting the monk
* No service for the Sangha
* No common joy with Sila
* Many political discussions
* Many comparison with other teachers and science
* "all are equal" attitude
* justifications of breaking the fundamental precepts
* strong doubts toward Devas and other fine material beings
* rejecting of life befor and after
* sitting and eating (the benefits of the assambling) of lay people and monks on one table, no signs of respects between younger monks with older.
*  monks doing services and favors for lay people, working for lay people , e.g. living in improper assosiation, wrong livelyhood.
* charity and giving toward ordinary people is honored while giving to the Sangha even to Noble Ones criticiced for low social sake
* Monks who are engaged in social projects and activism as well as in politic an sociaty issues are honoted and praised
* deleting of post and topics, censure and taking of existence (banning people and derive them of existence in their world)
* strong desire to divest themselves from outwardly critic (closed groups, seperate practice)
* the suppressing of faults is prefered will confessing is not

See for more and compairing to the Suttas: Association with People of Integrity in "Into the Stream"


For a person, even if faith or dhamma-follower, having taken refugee to certain degree, there is no prospering toward path fruit and for one already has gained paths or fruits, not a place he/she would/could stay for a long time, even desired.

While such places give no joy for a Noble One, is a not conductive place for those seeking the Path, for pathfinder.
So there are less pathfinder groups who actually stick to, and are guided by path knower.

For a Noble person who desires to enter the path to abound such as sensual craving, ill-will, lazyness, craving for becoming, would not gain much in associating with sensual strong addiced, "fighters", lazy and selfish people, and those strong addicted to become this or that, having their community and its growing as focus.

Atma could not look into the topic quoted obove, where certain things had been discussed with Ven. Pesala. It tells that the topic does not exist.

More on the most importand topic for gaining path, please see: Wie entgegnet man Falscher Ansicht? or the previous english draft of it How to address wrong view?

Atma hopes that he could give Nyom Dylan ( maranadhammomhi ), Moritz and all other lightening and liberating explainings.

[Corrections and translation not done for now]
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 01:40:09 PM »
Just have seen that on both places, DW, BL, the previous discussions have been either deleted or taken from visibility, sadly, because some post have been much sacrify for bringing them into being.

But as told, there are no real gains if sacrifies are done toward people of wrong view.
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2017, 09:33:12 PM »
Atma came "accedently", at "least" through Nyom Moritz to a story and context where it was originated here .

It fits well to the topic and so add it here: Are you not getting expected results from meditation? .

Let's see if Upasaka Lal will give up his teaching elsewhere on fruitless soil and share some good points for our "Mimosen" Gifted Ones , like Upasaka Dhammavaro  here, so that all could learn from you Gifted Ones and you insights from each other.

Once again an encouragement-provocation:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana ... the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship.

"With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship."

Upasaka Hoizichri , Atma thinks you have been also very curious about thi topic here. Is you english well enought?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 10:14:34 PM by Johann »
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 03:51:15 PM »
In regard of Path and Fruition and the above mentioned discussion on DW, Maarten gave a nice answer with simple , maybe more usual words:

Quote from: Maarten, DW, Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry
I can't quote any resources, but as I understand it there are special experiences that can occur as a result of the practice. In those experiences you learn something very deep about yourself. As a result of what you learned you will now start to change some of your views and habbits, you will condition yourself differently than before, until eventually those fetters will be gone.

The mind works through conditioning / brain washing you can't get any huge changes instantly.

So first you would be a worldling. Then you will have a special experience (path moment) then you will brainwash your newfound knowledge into yourself until the 3 fetters are gone (fruit)
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2017, 07:21:33 PM »
Having given a talk today and since it is related to the topic here but also to give invitation and ask for correction of possible mistakes and wrong interprations, my person shares it also here:

Quote from: Can there be Non-Attachment without Virtue. asked by VisuddhiRaptor on freesangha.com and originaly answered by Johann here

Quote from: VisuddhiRaptor
Venerable Samana

I read here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html of a stream-enterer who drunk alcohol.

Can there be Non-Attachment without Virtue.

  _/\_

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Nyom (? VisuddhiRaptor),

Atma (my person) is not sure of what Nyom means with "Non-Attachment" put assumes that right release, in form of one of the stages of awaking is mean, so to speak a Noble person, no more able to fall into lower realm and destinated to final release.

It is not possible to gain right release aside of the Noble Eightfold path which incl. the factor of virtue. Right virtue, right spech, conduct, livelihood are the prerequisites for right mindfulness and right concentration.

It is possible to gain such as "non attachment" when we remember householder - equanimity, upekkha which is based on ignorance, having not transcendent form (see MN137 here and foot notes in this regard ). Such training of being not released but possible bear as much faults is trained by certain sectarians using the "trademark" Dhamma of the Buddha for it.

Since such equanimity is always conditioned, it is subject to decay and not lasting but because it is possible to develope it is very dangerous because one is still subject to the effects of ones deeds based on wrong view.
When people have accumulated much merits then, like in the simile of the "The Salt Crystal people often feel untouchable, but effects of deeds come, sometimes later, even lifetimes later.

That is way the Buddha pointed out the fact that King Pasenadi realiced here :

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Few are those people in the world who, when acquiring lavish wealth, don't become intoxicated & heedless, don't become greedy for sensual pleasures, and don't mistreat other beings. Many more are those who, when acquiring lavish wealth, become intoxicated & heedless, become greedy for sensual pleasures, and mistreat other beings."

What ever wealth comes to one, is a matter of merits, and in that way this should be understood also in regard of merits. Having a lot of merits gained does not ensure being free of falling into lower realms and does not ensure that one is destinated to release.

If we look at the Sutta Nyom had quoted, we see who is no more subject of falling downward.

As for the "Drinker" here, like the Buddha told at the end, he had fullfilled the training at the end of his life, meaning, he had developed the Noble Eightfold path at the moment of death. So starting with this point, he has become a Stream-winner.

Since it is a big discussion in many Dhamma-forums this days, in how far or if a stream-enterer could break precepts, my person takes that question here also as having somehow originated for one of them and Nyom might be actually a person having participated into the one and other, more or lesser touched by this or that view.

In regard of drinking. When we look at the Noble Eightfold Paths discription, we might discover that "only" for precepts are mentioned for the most time.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. This is one's right view. And what is wrong action? Killing, taking what is not given, illicit sex. This is wrong action...  (see also other quotes in Right Action )

But since drinking makes heedless, and heedlessness is the cause of wrong doing, it is logical to include this kind of sensual pleasure, produced by means causing lack of (moral) shame.

In one having gained right view, let's say a person having gained the 1. path, or being faith or dhamma-follower, knowing or not, absence of shame does not mean absence of moral shame. So it might be possible for Noble person, not aware of it, that he/she takes indoxicants as a mean of sensual pleasure in a way that does not cause mindlessness and lose of moral shame. You might have observed people who, when getting a little indoxicated, lose fear of doing right (not like the person with wrong view, he/she loses fear of doing wrong).

If ones right mindfulness is very strong, certain levels of indoxication will not really penetrate ones mind, but one should be carefull since we easily overestimated our capability.

How ever, once gained fruit or being aware of ones situation one does no more cause indoxication since knowing that the self-esteem arising with it is an illusion. Commentaries, as having been informed, mentions that a Noble person is no more able to drink alcohol and a seemingly usuall form of testing a person is to put some alcohol into milk and look if he/she drinks it. But that is "just" what comes from the elder monks.

Once knowing, how ever, that taking indoxicants is not proper, a Noble person would have no reason to do not abstain from it.

In regard of directly wrong doing, a Noble person is incapable to perform heavy wrong deeds which require to be based on strong wrong view meaning on a strong self-believe, forgetting or rejecting cause and effect eternaly.

If faults are performed itks not only that fruits, effects of wrong doing arise very quick and one quickly becomes aware, but also one is not able, meaning having no reason to hide or reject wrong doings, and sure of the fact that causes give effects he/she has neither fear to bear the effects nor any believe that he/she could run away from the effects.

He/she is also free of the fetter of performing non conductive practice and following wrong moral conduct. So strong wrong doings in gaining a certain higher aim by "rites & rituals" is also no more possible. Meaning that such strong believe of doing wrong for a good, deliberated "mercy killing" or "lying out of compassion", all the "Robinhood-ethics", to bring some samples, or what ever "Bodhisattas" would do deliberated, would also no more accure. Having lost Self-identity views one will be also no more a "social hero" fighting for a certain group or taking side.

How ever, althought knowing certain thing for sure, yet being not totaly free of the fetter sensual desire and ill-will, which will entirely fall only at the stage of No-returner, he/she might act in "affect", like it is used in legal-therms, but quickly come to sense and bear the fruits and again such deeds will be no heavy offences.

So if you see somebody taking a chocolate in certain circumstances it does not indicate "this person is not a noble one" or if he/she violates precepts in certain stress situations or when he/she is not informed about certain behaviours, remembering a monk in a sutta, who had maintained the habit of addreasing monks like outcasts living as Brahman in earlier existences.

Being really honest to one self, one is able to prove if one is still able to perform heavy wrong deeds in ways of asking oneself and step near to the fire, even without the need of doing so bodily. Such a question: "Am I still able to kill? Am I still able to steal, ...speak what's not true, ...transgress in fleshy lust, deliberately?" Are very good to maybe get needed fear of oneself and become are of "still having the devil insight" and so, in that way, approaches the good disciples of the Buddha and his Dhamma, seeking them as refuge and guardiances till one gain liberation from not-knowings effects.

My person hopes that his bad english and the more broader explaining is not a hindrance to take take this tiny gift of Dhamma by heard and let it penetrate it effectively.

So once again an in regard of the question, which is actually surely better explained be most Ven. Thanissaro in his essay, linked in the OP: No, it is impossible that right release has non-virtue, wrong virtue factors, as its prerequisite. It's impossible that right release arises with non-virtue, and it's imposible that right releases does not cause lasting virtue as result. Why is this? Because right release has right view and right resolve as it's condition amoung with the other factors of the path and what ever rest of boundage is left after gaining right view, is subject of lasting decay, once the wheel of Dhamma is set forth. A person having gained right release, being of no integrity: Such is not possible.

If Nyom (good to use ones given name, having gained right view or faithful trains to lose doubt of "being owner of ones action", such is much more conductive and protects much more, just as practical advice here) has any doubt or question, feel free to ask further. If Nyom sees anything that looks like not right or maybe bad expressed, my person is always greatful to get also rebuked, corrected and critisiced and always invites to that.

Just the time of lunch of the mosquitoes here, my person will not prove read the text, so many grammer and spelling mistakes you might have beared till come to read this here. Sadhu! For that sacrify.)

May all beings have a share of the merits done here and may the Devas inform those not having heard yet so that those able to rejoice may have all shares of the bliss of skillful deeds.

Anumodana!
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 07:00:17 AM »
Upasaka Matheesha, nicht nur belehrt sondern auch gefestigt, hat wunderbarer weise einen klaren Textteil ausgemacht, der zeigt, dass es klar acht und nicht vier Personen gibt und Frucht nicht unmittelbar Pfad folgt, Sadhu!

Quote from: Upasaka Matheesha on D&D, Faith-Follower & Dhamma-Follower
Quote from: suaimhneas
...then it would seem to be the case that those practicing for the fruits of the various stages are trainees for the respectives stages (have weaker faculties than those who have fully attained those paths). So one who "is practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry" is, at least in terms of SN 48.18, not yet a full stream-enterer, but yet may still be one of those noble eight persons. I don't think your quote, per say, really contradicts the idea that a Dhamma-follower or faith-folllower might possibly be the 1st such person in the scheme of 8 persons.

No, I only intended to link up the magga and phala persons with the 8 people as you said you didn't think much about previously. The magga and phala people aren't shown to be close to each other in EBTs. It is possible to give dana to each one individually, so if the magga person lasts only a moment, it would be impossible to give dana to that person:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Sotāpanne dānaṁ deti,
A gift one gives to a Stream-Enterer,

ayaṁ navamī pāṭipuggalikā dakkhiṇā.
this is the ninth offering to an individual.

Sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne dānaṁ deti,
A gift one gives to one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Stream-Entry,

ayaṁ dasamī pāṭipuggalikā dakkhiṇā.
this is the tenth offering to an individual.
Quote from: MN142

Wenn Nyom Moritz  diesen Ansatz auch an den anderen Stellen der Diskussion, wie Buddhaland und Dhammawheel teilen möchte, wenn dort noch nicht geklärt, wäre das gut.

Vom Einladen, auch wenn wahrscheinlich zu sehr an d&d gebunden, von Upasaka Matheesha nicht zu sprechen.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 07:25:27 AM by Johann »
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