* *

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Recent Topics

[Today at 06:34:44 PM]

[Today at 05:38:02 PM]

[Today at 05:21:09 PM]

[Today at 12:57:57 PM]

[Today at 11:45:21 AM]

[Today at 11:08:15 AM]

[Today at 10:20:19 AM]

[Today at 09:48:37 AM]

[Today at 06:05:37 AM]

[October 17, 2018, 04:15:34 PM]

[October 17, 2018, 12:35:31 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 04:14:38 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 04:06:49 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 12:27:08 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 10:58:44 AM]

[October 16, 2018, 10:04:06 AM]

[October 16, 2018, 08:36:14 AM]

[October 15, 2018, 11:40:47 AM]

[October 15, 2018, 01:04:28 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 06:02:30 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 05:48:30 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 02:28:52 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 12:43:18 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 10:41:10 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 04:43:13 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 04:33:02 AM]

[October 09, 2018, 10:08:20 AM]

[October 09, 2018, 06:48:13 AM]

[October 08, 2018, 02:12:05 PM]

[October 08, 2018, 09:34:16 AM]

[October 07, 2018, 04:58:08 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 04:16:43 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 03:54:26 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 03:41:07 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 02:27:45 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 12:57:09 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 12:51:04 PM]

[October 06, 2018, 02:25:16 PM]

by gus
[October 06, 2018, 01:13:54 PM]

[October 06, 2018, 11:43:45 AM]

[October 06, 2018, 04:06:18 AM]

[October 06, 2018, 01:29:35 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 05:04:21 PM]

[October 05, 2018, 04:34:09 PM]

[October 05, 2018, 11:50:59 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 11:36:35 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 09:04:24 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 08:54:45 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 07:06:32 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 07:02:28 AM]

Author Topic: Verkehrtes Verhältnis Mönche - Laien, Vorbilder und Pflichten  (Read 859 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Verhältnis Mönche - Laien, Vorbilder und Pflichten ,  hier zu einem neuen eröffnen. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur Herkunft, sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!

The new topic here is made from one or more post from there Verhältnis Mönche - Laien, Vorbilder und Pflichten . For eventual additionally information to this new Topic, please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!

[Original post:]


Zum Eingangspost und Titel zurückkehrend, und es dann gleich als neues Thema abschneidend:

Vielerorts und für die meisten alles Verkehrt

Hier ein Auszug aus dem Sigalovada Sutta, welches die Bedingungen für geradegerücke vorteilhafte Aufwartung aufzeigt:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Auf fünf Arten, junger Haushälter, sollte ein Haushälter Asketen und Priester als den Zenith unterstützen:

(i) mit wohlwollenden Handlungen,
(ii) mit wohlwollenden Wörtern,
(iii) mit wohlwollenden Gedanken,
(iv) ihnen ein offenes Haus bieten,
(v) sie in materiellen Bedürfnissen versorgen.

"Die Asketen und Priester unterstützen so als der Zenith des Haushälters und zeigen auf sechs Arten Mitgefühl mit ihm:

(i) sie halten ihn von Ungeschicktem ab,
(ii) sie halten ihn zu Gutem an,
(iii) sie kümmern sich um ihm mit einem freundlichem Herz,
(iv) sie erzählen ihm, was er noch nicht gehört hat,
(v) sie erklären, was er bereits weiß,
(vi) sie führen ihn auf den Pfad zum höheren Bereich.

Auf diese sechs Arten zeigen Asketen und Priester ihr Mitgefühl gegenüber einem Haushälter, die er als den Zenith unterstützt. So ist der Zenith damit gedeckt, sicher und sorgenfrei gemacht."

Und dazu die Realität, vorallem im Westen, unter sogenannten aufgeklärten und modernen Menschen. Möge man Atma korregieren, wenn weit gefehlt:

(i) mit wohlwollenden Handlungen,
Wenn dann nur, wenn überhaupt, soweit wie "für jeden anderen auch"

(ii) mit wohlwollenden Wörtern,
So gut wie nicht wahrnehmbar und auch hier, wenn überhaupt, soweit wie "für jeden anderen auch"

(iii) mit wohlwollenden Gedanken
Ohh, Atma würde sagen, gegenüber Lehrer, Höhergestellten oder Asketen, gilt da das Mistrauens zuerst Prinzip

(iv) ihnen ein offenes Haus bieten,
In nahezu keinster Weise im Bereich von Zuvorkommenheit und sehr sehr selten selbst geduldet.

(v) sie in materiellen Bedürfnissen versorgen.
Absolute illusorisch und im Bereich von Zuvorkommenheit einfach nicht Existent

Von modernen und westlichen Mönchen, soweit wahrnehmbar, ausgeübt um sich am Mark entsprechend Nachfrage zu halten:

(i) sie halten ihn von Ungeschicktem ab,
Meist eher besampftigen, dass alles gut wird und schon vorbei ist und ja nicht deren Gepfogenheiten stören.

(ii) sie halten ihn zu Gutem an,
Eher zumeist schmeicheln wie gut sie schon sind, und ja keinen Anlass geben, der sie denken lasst was gut ist noch nicht zu kennen.

(iii) sie kümmern sich um ihm mit einem freundlichem Herz,
"Wie haben schon genug getan", Forderungen, Handel, für dies, das... sind mehr vordergründig. Sicherlich kümmert man sich gerne wie ein mehr oder weniger guter Verkäufer gegenüber Kunden.

(iv) sie erzählen ihm, was er noch nicht gehört hat,
...wenns der Unterhaltung dient.

(v) sie erklären, was er bereits weiß,
Vorstellungen getraut sich keiner wirklich angreifen, so wird da lieber die Quelle an die Vorstellungen angepasst. Also mehr in Waldorfstil gelehrt.

(vi) sie führen ihn auf den Pfad zum höheren Bereich.
Nachdem da weder Vertrauen noch Verlangen danach ist, erklärt man, wie man sich auf den vertrauten Pfaden hält, oder niedrige Bereiche durchsteht.

Also so ist dass für den einen oder anderen, entsprechend seine/ihrer Neigungen, Umfeld, Erwartungen und dem einhalten von "Pflichten" oder nicht entsprechend.

Ohne rechte Ansicht oder Vertrauen darin, kein Weg und keine Frucht. Das gilt für den jungen Haushälter wie für den Brahmanen oder Asketen und so ist der treibende Handel in Samsara, wie neue Geschäftszweige sichergestellt, in so einer verkehrten Welt wo sich alle gegenseitig nach unten ziehen.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 03:24:22 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])
 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

gus

October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "

Show 50 latest