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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] What is the Buddhas approach of admitting a mistake? Buddha und Beichte?  (Read 668 times)

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Offline Johann

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What is the Buddhas approach of admitting a mistake? (Buddha und Beichte?)

Upasaka Ravindranath Akila asked on BSE , 26.April 2017 this:

Quote from: Upasaka Ravindranath
What is the Buddhist approach of admitting a mistake?

I just did a mistake while commuting. I told sorry to the person and wished him well in my mind. This brought me to think,

Are there any suttas staring how to go about a mistake done which resulted in hurting another person?

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

(This is a modified and expanded answer. The "original" can be found here. )


My person remembers well the occation he once rebuked a famous monks teaching on confessing. The receiter of this teaching, him self long time devoted in regard to the Dhamma and a person which Atma actually often praised, got so annoyed and angry that he never seeked contact with my person again.

It's therfore good to understand first, that what ever institutions wuth wordly aims, incl. here foremost certain religions, gain1 followers and grow by certain promises that if followed this and that, even if you do wrong, a certain power will forgive your faults and having payed the right amount of "bribe money" (so to speak) one would receive mercy anyway. Such attracts people since ever and its the normal way of corruption all over the world, but the law of nature does not work in this way.

So since the West is very strong influenced by religion praising confession but having lost faith into their previous almightyness, it is today also not very popular to encourage to confession. Out of marketing reason Buddhas teachings have been introduced as kind of alternative that somehow would not have any use of such as confession and that it is aways importand to see the past simply as the past.

Alltought confession is easier as to put effort into no need to confess anything by simply doing what is blameless, it's even more easier to abound not only hard and sometimes painful effort to conduct upright, but also to reject requirements of confession and admitting. Such perfect situation, like it seems, attacts mosty those with no real effort at all, those who hope for Path and Fruits without giving this causes in advanced.

So the topic admitting and confessing is a very importand topic and the Buddha thoughtful in this matter even layed down very strict formal procedures to process confessing, pardon and also reconcilation. Monks also got a "must do" on inviting others to uncover any wrong deed. It's not only of benefit for those who practice it by themselves but a requirement for a longer lasting community. At least the admitting of wrong doings shows others that one is still serious in regard of the practice and also in regard of the community and others.
Those many formal ways the Sangha members are merely bound to can be adopted partly by good communities as well. Actually the main reason why such as Sangha is required all comes down on just this matter and Bhikkhus would need to meet each other to stay next to each other, out of only that reason: to observe, correct, confess . Therefore the Sangha was invented and established by the Buddha.

So any doubt on the importance (like in the mood of "everybody will deserve his share" or "time will heal all wounds") of this topic simple destroys the foundation of the existing of a community that follows, or is willing to follow the Buddhas given way to liberation, e.g. the Dhamma, in only short time. Like any relationship will quickly break apart if there is no more effort in improving, correcting and rehabilitation measure, the following of the Buddha, leaded by the Sangha of monks, would break apart like the wooden carts of the old now do in Cambodias county side, having been neglegted and given aside since better seeming ways and vehicles to gain the aim have been seen. No more interest in it, its also a matter of demant, that those skilled in the means of welfare are disappearing very fast and all that is left are nostalgic bricolage sets avaliable on the market.

Since the certain assambling of monks will always met their likewise inclined lay followers and following merely the worlds strategy of "decriminalization" and lighten the standards for hopped better community welfare, because nobody likes pain and sacrifies to gain certain fruits,  rather then to even put the standards and means for improvement higher, it is very clear that this heritage at lage and visible and metable for many, will soon disapear. It's not really rstimate-able that Sangha at lage would confess their wrong doing in followibg the ways of the world since some 100, 150 years. Rather to really start to confess all kinds of "but today..."-approaches and addoptions, they even pull them further into the deep and low wheel of worlds demants.

If one sees situations of others and how they become totaly akinesic, should one encourage to do a better and keep one out of heavy dirt, rust and film. That is why the cleaning of this burdens are called Upasatha (cleaning) and the foredays recitation of the rules after having made one self clean again, pure, is a wonderful means to stay free to move. It's a mirage believing that there is such as freedom behind rejecting the need of cleani g and maintenance. It's like the freedom of a water buffalo that seeks for muddy places to cover his old dirt to be not to much disturbed by insects nurishing on the scarb.
A for every body in every situation given teaching in regard of actions and how to act if having seen if actions have leaded to suffering for one self or that of others is given in the Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

... "Having done a bodily action (same for verbal action), you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.
...
"Having done a mental action, you should reflect on it: 'This mental action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful mental action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it. Feeling distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it, you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities....
Note that this is actually just the first step to find out if there was a fault e.g. a wrong deed leading to such and note also, since we are talking about matters of virtue, Sīla, Vinaya, it's not needed to approach somebody in regard of mental actions.
If it is clear that there was a wrong doing, even if not having visible pain for one self and others, it's good to confess or remark it recognize able for others that such a deed was not right.
The approach of an admirable friend helps you not only in regard of defilement which could easily cheat you and your judgement, but also in regard of matters where your actions seems to have caused suffering but actually there have been no faulty deeds.
After being sure about the matter, its good to approach the "victim" taking a third or more people involved in such an amend.

In regard of most answers in the question (Can bad kammas be eased by apologizing? ), added by Chris: no, confession, admitting and apologize will not easen or even make deeds and their results undone, but it straightens your view and thoughts and allows you to walk on, aside the fact that such is nessesary for any good relation or community. Of course it also reduces as much as possible, that wrong doings might be countered by wrong deeds of others and can cut off back and for that might even last since many live times.
Confessing, apologize but also accepting a pardon is something people seldom practice any more, caught in wrong views of having primaly rights and feeling independent. If one thinks on certain insurance, one would even lose all support if confessing anything. So the todays way, even it seems without conflict and weapons, would be to take on the machine gun "Lawyer" and leaving all up to a judge.

But again, it is needed to know what is a wrong deed. If somebody is hurt does not mean that you made something wrong.

A desire for apologise, even knowing that there was nothing wrong in your deeds, is then merely founded in ones desire to be liked or in certain ways estimated by others. In some cases for the benefit of a community, but in such a case good if also turn away from this group in need of having something admitted of what is not really wrong.

So admitting should be not used for politics, since such causes confusion of what is right and wrong in communities and relations in long therms. Feel free to ask more here

Upasaka Ravindranath Akila asked then in addition over there:

Quote from: Upasaka Ravindranath
I just read the sutta. It is useful to reflect ones own mistake. I'm looking at how I can apologize and make amends. Is there such a way?
Not always. And as told, sometimes its merely a desire in regard of relation to a person. Such desire is human, of coures, but not nessesary skillful. Sometimes beings are no more interested at all, even not to hear an admitting. Their aversion is theirs. For you it good then to practice good will, not love or desire, if the way to apologize is not open for now.. A good talk on this matter generally is: Reconciliation, Right & Wrong , by Ven. Thansissaro.

While most believe that unity is the highers, Buddhas account was not so.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable.

"Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable.

"Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable.

"Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of fame is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable.
Quote from: parts from the Kalyāṇamittādivaggo

Nothing is worthy to give up real benefical things and he told clearly its better to loses relations, wealth and even health for such things as right view (the linked talk also explains how to act in an environment of wrong view) and withdraw from anything else. Why? With the break apart of the body, one would not fall into low existences. The lose of others will come anyway, sooner or later.

So it's worthy to also consider that a certain confession to make somebody a favor could be also a lie. Not to speek about a confessions result that confirms wrong doing like: "Sorry that I did not kill the mosquito. You would have not been hurt and angry now.", or "I have to confess that it was not right to tell you not to ly. If I would not have done it, you would not in prision now."

We can say that there are three kinds of desire for reconciliation:

Unskilfull: connected with (wrong) fear, desire (for wodlily gain), aversion (caused by desire), not-knowing (that a reconciliation is urgend, for example)

Skillful: connected with (right) fear of wrongdoing, desire (for skillfulness), aversion (of unclear situations and hindrences to walk on), knowing (of what is skilfull and unskilfull)

Beyound: no more desire for any lose or gain and therefore no more seek for reconciiation actively, but accepting apologize.

The skillful could be divided into: 1) Wordly: to maintain ones world an relations, and 2) contuctive for the path to liberation: to maintain a good relation in regard of those worthy to associate.

If one likes to confess a misdeed to a certain victim, its good to take a witness with you if you meet the "victim". Its good to have neutral person on side, maybe even respected by the victim. It can be also done in public.

It good an usual to knee down in front and give signs of lowering you self also bodily and not only in speech especially if such a confession goes toward people worthy of respect, like father, mother, elders, leader, contemplatives, monks... but also in regard of people equal or lower, such bodily signs of lowering one self proper are conductive. Folding the hands and lower the head are also such ways.

When confessing its also good to explain the story well that the "victim" knows about you awarness of the situation and deeds done. It's sometimes not so that others have realized what you did.

The kind of "pay back" you give depents on the weight of the misdeed and could be from already given by asking pardon till certain transactions or material compensations. Note that a judges punishmet in a law case would make a useful pardon direct to the victim unnessesary. Such is even more importand than to simply accept a punishment layed down by a third person.

One could seach for advices in how and in which amount of "pay back" should be done when reading the Vinaya. Some faults just need to be confessed, some need to be confessed and the item forfeited (given back), some require further actions like to step down for a while, and heavier might be good to clean in front of a lager assambling. But how one does its for Not-Bhikkhus absolutely in there own sphere of approach to it, the Buddha did not adviced lay people in this regard in detail since all relation an sociaties work out their ways by themselves and the Buddha did not grasp after authority in any other society aside of his Sangha.

In each case, one should always confess real mistakes and accept the "punishment" accordingly, and of course one should always investigate ones own actions first and propably seek for advices from admirable friends for certain cases (See talk to Rahula) and Bala-pandita Sutta: Fools & Wise People

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, these two are fools. Which two? The one who doesn't see his transgression as a transgression, and the one who doesn't rightfully pardon another who has confessed his transgression. These two are fools.

"These two are wise people. Which two? The one who sees his transgression as a transgression, and the one who rightfully pardons another who has confessed his transgression. These two are wise people."

Wothy to note! (Since often overseen) There is no need of confessing or reconciliation for mental deeds. Here being ashamed for yourself and lso determination to do not again is enought (is't not part of Sila/Vinaya).

My person hopes that this words are able to encourage not only Ravindranath Akila but also as many as possible others to make use of this cleanig tool. Not in the believe to be able to make deeds and their effects undone but to use it as a means that allows you to walk beyound all kinds of kamma and there incorrectable effects in this precisious and seldom human life. Just two things at the end: for not making wrong deeds this for sure burdensome tool is not nessesary at all and also important: A person just apologizes again and again but does not chance his/her ways, will sooner or later receive no more pardons or simply no more taken seriously.

Anumodana!

[no German version/transation for now]
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 08:29:44 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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And addition:

Seeing the necessarity: One may fight lifetimes, spend lifetimes to justify ones deeds, will win and lose for lifetimes again and again, as long there is no real admiting one will not realky progress and do it again and again. Think of how long Devatata and his fellow still turns around and will "win" for many lifetimes birth again and again, and Verdrängen ist nicht Verzeihen (German, you may translate it if you feel inspired)

Requesting Forgiveness

Usually chanted after having made merits:

Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā, Buddhe kukammaṃ pakataṃ mayā yaṃ, Buddho paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṃ, Kālantare saṃvarituṃ va buddhe.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Buddha by body, by speech, or by mind, may the Buddha accept my admission of it, so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Buddha. (Same for Dhamma and Sangha )

Anumodana.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Plauderbox

 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante
 :-*  :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
 :)  ;) Moritz, gut einfühlbar. In Österreich lebte der Körper nach der asiatischen Uhr, hier in N nach der österreichischen Uhr.
Nicht zeitgerecht der Natur entsprechend zu leben, überfordert den Körper.  
Beste Grüße aus Kathmandu!  :-*
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 11:06:18 AM
Sadhu, und vergesse Nyom sich nicht.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
Es wird spät in Hawaii. Einen friedlichen Tag allen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:40:41 AM
Ja, gestern Vormittag bis Nachmittag. Ich lebe wohl gerade ungefähr im Einklang mit der Zeitzone von Hawaii.
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 07:36:45 AM
Nyom Moritz. Hat er auch ausreichend Schlaf genommen?
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:30:08 AM
Good day, Bhante _/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 03:20:13 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 03:07:40 AM
Ach ja, hab nun geändert. Vielleicht klappt's nun beim nächsten probieren @Roman
_/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 02:21:56 AM
Vielleicht gut wenn Meister Moritz Nyom Roman die 5 Mühsam-Beitagszahl hineinzaubert, da dann spamschutz wegfällt und er zu den unöffentlichen Foren Zugang hat.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:13:06 PM
Hier eine kurze Bild-Erklärung zum Beantworten von Themen und Beiträgen.
Wenn noch Probleme, gern weiter hier nachfragen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Gut zu hören, dass der Bruder sich mitfreut. Sadhu! :)
Möge alles problemlos im Eintritt in das neue Leben für ihn laufen. _/\_

Roman

July 12, 2018, 09:01:41 PM
Danke moritz

Ich werde es ausprobieren!!

Aufjedenfall war es eine sehr erfreuliche Nachricht! ! Ich bin sehr stolz auf marcel!! Mein herz geht auf!! Wunderschön!
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:58:37 PM
(Also auch auf der neuen Seite, wo dann das Text-Eingabefeld ist: Das Text-Eingabefeld ist nicht gleich im Fokus, sondern man muss erst ein gutes Stück nach unten scrollen, um es zu finden.)
Nicht sicher gerade, wie es auf Smartphone aussieht, ob da viel anders ist.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Wenn man ganz unten ans Ende der letzten Nachricht scrollt, sollte da ein Button "Reply" oder "Antworten" sein. (Je nach eingestellter Sprache vielleicht.) Da drauf klicken. Dann sollte auf der nächsten Seite eine Texteingabe-Ansicht erscheinen. Zu der muss man aber erst ein Stück runter scrollen.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Oh, die Nachricht wurde abgeschnitten. Hier in der Shoutbox sind nur ein paar hundert Zeichen möglich.
Ja, das Forum ist etwas unübersichtlich am Anfang. Moment, ich versuche mal, zu erklären. :)

Roman

July 12, 2018, 08:41:24 PM
Hallo

Ich lese sehr viel hier!! Es ist sehr interessant!! Die Menge an Infos! ! Sehr toll!!..Ich habe versucht auf den Beitrag zu reagieren der die Entwicklung von nyom marcel beschreibt..glaube von Johann verfasst. Jedoch weiß ich noch nicht genau wie dieses funktioniert.
Ich habe die Nachric
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:34:57 PM
Hallo Roman, Binocular/Visitor _/\_
 

Johann

July 12, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 10:08:30 PM
Ohh... es ist woeder mal 3 geworden. Atma erlaubt sich, sich zurückzuziehen und sich etwas um die Malaria zu kümmern.
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
Sadhu zu Ersten Ausruf/ Aufruf. Sadhu zum zweiten, zu Vorbildhaftigkeit, und mag er sich stets entlassen fühlen
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 07:00:07 PM
Chom reap leah, Bhante _/\_
Nun wirklich weg hier für heute, Arbeit ruft.
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 05:43:01 PM
Allen gute Besinnung auf was besinnenswert ([1] | [2] ) ist wünschend _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 08, 2018, 09:33:25 AM
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 09:28:47 AM
Nyom Sophorn
 

Danilo

July 08, 2018, 12:20:06 AM
Bhante and Moritz _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 12:16:49 AM
Moritz, Danilo
 

Moritz

July 08, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
Good evening, morning or whatever the time here and there. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 04:20:58 PM
Meister Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:57:42 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 02:36:37 PM
  :-* Hallo Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
Hallo, Marcel, Sophorn. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 05:18:33 AM
Nyom Sophorn, Nachricht von Bhante Indannano: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1554.msg15198.html#msg15198
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 03:51:28 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:22:38 AM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:08:22 AM
Geruhsame Nacht, Nyom
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:48:32 AM
Gute Nacht. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:47:01 AM
Hallo Mirco! :)
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:46:48 AM
Sadhu. Möge Bhante lange gesund bleiben. _/\_
 

Johann

July 01, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
Sadhu

Angenehmen, klärenden Tag. Auch allen anderen.

Atmas Gesundheit, trotz der durch stetes Regnen zahlreicher Mitesser, ist soweit ok und wer weis wie morgen. Bisher schon länger malariaanfallverschont.

 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
(Bin erst mal kurz weg vom Computer.
Chom reap leah. _/\_)
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:41:41 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante. _/\_

Wie steht es um Ihre Gesundheit und Malaria?

_/\_
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 03:48:17 AM
Hallo Sophorn!
Gruß auch zurück nach Österreich :) _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 01, 2018, 03:40:58 AM
Freut mich, dass es gut geht.

Beste Grüsse nach Asien und Resteuropa!  :-*
 

Marcel

June 30, 2018, 12:23:03 AM
Werte sophorn,
Mir geht es gut!  :-*
 

Sophorn

June 29, 2018, 08:23:49 PM
Werter Marcel,
Wie geht's?
 :-*
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:10:49 AM
  :'(- irrtümlich gesendet!!
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:08:00 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-* :'(
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:07:58 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-*

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