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Author Topic: On Being of Noble birth - Stream winner reborn as human  (Read 162 times)

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Offline Johann

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On Being of Noble birth - Stream winner reborn as human
« on: June 17, 2017, 11:55:38 AM »

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Noble Wiedergeburt - Noble rebirth ,  hier zu einem neuen eröffnen. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur Herkunft, sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!

The new topic here is made from one or more post from there Noble Wiedergeburt - Noble rebirth . For eventual additionally information to this new Topic, please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!

[Original post:]


Stream winner reborn as human

Stream winner reborn as human[

someone enters the stream and becomes a sotapanna (stream winner), then he would have at most, seven lifetimes left. What the stream is, is defined in this answer as:

This noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the stream. (SN 55.5)


Thanissaro Bhikku further comments here that:

The coming-together of these factors is called the stream because it leads inevitably to two things, just as the current of a tributary will lead inevitably to a major river and then to the sea. In the immediate present, the stream leads directly to the arising of the Dhamma eye, the vision that actually constitutes this first awakening. Over time, the stream ensures that — in no more than seven lifetimes — one will be totally unbound.


The Dhamma eye is explained as the ability to see firsthand and experientially, the impermanence of the five aggregates and dependent origination.

My questions are (for rebirths as a human):
  • 1. How does a reborn stream-winner know that he or she is one?
  • 2. Does being a stream-winner in a previous lifetime, mean that one would be reborn into a devout Buddhist family in this lifetime or would definitely be led to the Dhamma eventually?
  • 3. Is the reborn stream-winner's Dhamma eye open immediately at birth, or only after he or she encounters the Dhamma and returns back to the Noble Eightfold Path?
  • 4. How is it guaranteed that the reborn stream-winner would not choose another path or another teacher, and drop out of the stream, considering that we do not remember previous lifetimes?
  • 5. Please provide any info from the canon regarding this.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" - which also could have been changed by third person - that can be found here . )


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.

Ruben2020, and who ever might be interested in answers of you question:

Begin a time where the matter of "what makes one a stream-winner" seems to interest many and maybe because many "Noble-Born" are currently remind, meting they reminder, on their old path they have already gone, it's maybe worthy to recollect the teachings informations about this matter in a good manner and everybody should be encouraged here to point out possible mistakes and missing points.


➨ 1. How does a reborn stream-winner know that he or she is one?

Acutally in the frame set of the questions it would be unlikely the first, since why would one raise such a question if maybe not even aware of such as "steam-winner.

How ever, lets look what are the atributes that a Streamwinner "possesses". Of what we know about what the Buddha said, being answered the question, "How does one know if having won the Stream or not?", the properly most similar question and most direct answer is found in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta , in an conversation mit Ven. Ananda Thera, the Bhikkhus have been used to ask for the attainments of others the Lord Buddha an he giving them a mirror to use to look for oneself:
 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Mirror of the Dhamma

Ananda, I will give you the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

"And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?

"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honor, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration — the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'

"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.

"This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

There are other Suttas as well, which describe the attributs of a Streamwinner like in the Samyutta Nikaya, the SN 22.109: Sotaapanno Sutta — The Sotaapanna (' Stream-winner') or the Okkanta-samyutta — Entering

 
In this samyutta the Buddha explains the kinds of conviction and understanding that are required for the attainment of stream-entry. These short suttas share an identical structure, with each one focusing on a different aspect of experience (including the six senses, the six elements (dhatu), and the five aggregates). See also the Study Guides on stream-entry .


For example:

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Itks maybe worthy to keep in mind that one needs to be very honest and proof very in detail all corners and dismantel any kind of quickly made judgement in its seriousity. That, how ever, requires to know, heaving heard the good teachings and understand clearly their meaning.

In regard of the fetters, a stream-winner has abounded the first three lower fetters of the ten fetters :

  • Self-identity views (sakkāya-diṭṭhi), identifying either the clinging-aggragats, or some, or one, or the sense-groups and their objects, some, or one, as being an lasting personality.

     
  • Uncertainty or doubt (vicikiccha), meaning that one does no more seek for other teachers and teaching than the Buddha and his Dhamma, transported by the Savaka-Sangha.

     
  • Grasping at (wrong) precepts & practices (sīlabbata-parāmāsa), which are not conductive for the path and naturally follow conductive ones, relaying merely on the judgement of the own mind in regard of what is skillful and unskilful and no more need of authority be given precepts & practices in the judgements sphere of speech (verbalication) and bodily acts. With other words, deeds (in mind, speech and body) are now "controlled" in an inwardly manner and no more just and outwardly evaluation, in a ways of outwardly comparing appearances but by relaying on mindstates, e.g intention (cetana), not to mix with purpose) for it. While the wordling act merely fixed on the gain of certain fruit (vipāka), the Noble Ones view has turned to the quality of the action (kamma) when deciding what and how to do.
In regard of the virue of a streamwinner there are many views and disputes of which, how and if a streamwinner can break the basic four precepts and missconuct in consuming means which cause heedlessness.

Since the virtue of a Noble person of first degree is based on gained right view, he/she is not able to act strong unskillful deliberated. It might be that faulty acts happen in "affect", but even done he/she does not hidde such a fault and has a natural desire to confess it immediately.

How ever, he/she is in any case incapable to performing acts out of niyata micca ditthi, evil wrong view , and therefore incapable:

Quote from: Commentar to Sn 2.1

  • matricide, 2 patricide,
  • the murder of arahants (the Consummate Ones),
  • the shedding of the Buddha's blood,
  • causing schism in the Sangha, and 6.pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi).

In reagard of more detail of the virtue, my person gave recently some words on it in a discussion: Can there be Non-Attachment without Virtue?

In regard of recognition by others (and in the case one seeks for prove by others), is needed to know, that only a "person on integrity (e.g. a Noble One)" can know of anothers persons integrity (MN 110 ). The Sutta Paṭisalla Sutta: Seclusion contains also explainings here that:

 
It's through living together that a person's virtue... It's through trading with a person that his purity... It's through adversity that a person's endurance... It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.


My person will end here in regard of the first question.


➨ 2. Does being a stream-winner in a previous lifetime, mean that one would be reborn into a devout Buddhist family in this lifetime or would definitely be led to the Dhamma eventually?

No, there are certain kinds mentioned and about the "leding", he she would definitly. On how: see answer question 3.

A steam-winner will be born
  • mostly 7 more times in the realm of the Devas (sensual world is no hight path is gained) or human world, here:
  • reborn in a good family
  • one-seeder
See AN 9.12 (Bhikkhu Bodhi):

... With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a one-seed attainer who, after being reborn once more as a human being, makes an end of suffering.

... With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a family-to-family attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among good families two or three times, makes an end of suffering.

...With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seven times-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering. ...



➨ 3. Is the reborn stream-winner's Dhamma eye open immediately at birth, or only after he or she encounters the Dhamma and returns back to the Noble Eightfold Path?

He/She maybe not conscious about having the " Dhamma-eye but like answered to question 4. is not in a strong danger to follow wrong teacher, in an amout that is not in the frame of the conduct and way of thinking of a Noble One.

Becoming aware about the Dhamma is also answered under question 4, which can have four general typs of reminder:


➨ 4. How is it guaranteed that the reborn stream-winner would not choose another path or another teacher, and drop out of the stream, considering that we do not remember previous lifetimes?

AN 4.191 indicates that one (here a previous monk appearing under Devas), if not reminding him-/herselves ("dies with a muddled mind") either is remembered by
  • comming in contact by him-/herself
  • a monk with special power
  • a Deva
  • a "familary" spirit

One is incapable to "fall out" or "follow other Paths", since - like in the 1. question answered - the fetter "doubt" is abounded. Now it might be possible that he/she trains within another religion als long and in so far, the views and practices contain the factors of the noble eightfold path. It's so possible, that if one maintains a "mystic" approach in regard of "God", it could be that one practices as Christian, or better under Christians, till one meets the good Dhamma, for example, or in certain other sects, but will maybe oppose certain things there naturally.

So it is guaranteed by or through his/her previous deeds, the fullfilement of bringing together all pathfactors and the hearing of the good Dhamma with proper attention in advanced.


➨ 5. Please provide any info from the canon regarding this.

The answers should already countain the sources. One of the best collection of Suttas might be the Studyguiden Into the Stream - A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening , by Bhante Thanissaro, which will provide many additional informations and teachings, not only for gifted "Noble-Born's" but also for Dhamma-, Faith- and most suggested for those "with little faith" for now, to not only gain more of it, but also put all means into practice and finish a task so less are capable, bringing behind the most of all burdens to be for ever behind.

 

* Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.

* Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.

* Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.

* Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.

— SN 55.5


May all beings have share of the merits here done with the support and sacrifies of many and may the Devas inform those not having seen or heard yet.

Anumodana!

(Note: This is a gift of Dhamma, came into being by goodness received and gratitude and so given by goodness and gratitude, and not meant for commercial purpose and trade in the world, or any wordily gain.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 11:57:40 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Johann

October 16, 2017, 05:40:03 PM
Sokh chomreoun, Nyom. (Mag sukha sich für Nyom mehren). Thoamada (Dhammada - naturly, gewohnt). At mean ay pisech te (nichts besonders). Klach dukkh, klach sokh (wohl und weh wechseln sich ab). Nyom sokh sabay dea te? Sokh leumom dea te?
 

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 :-* ehrwürdiger samana johann! wie ist ihr befinden?  :-*
 

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October 07, 2017, 02:48:39 AM
Der Tathagata tut das, wenn man ihn in seinem Dhamma sieht, und dieser, entgegen Personen, kommt auf wenn man ihn nährt, und einmal da, geht er für einen nicht mehr verloren, bleibt Tor zur Todlosigkeit.
 

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 :-* ehrwürdiger samana johann :-* mögen sie noch lange leben,   für das wohl vieler.... anumodana, ich freue mich sehr! sie decken auf, was vorher verdeckt. so das vijja entstehen kann, und avijja gehen muss!! geht direkt ins herz!
 

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September 27, 2017, 12:17:53 PM
Nyom Sophorn, Roben mag man immer geben können. Im Monat nach dem Vassa Ende, ist es für jene Mönche, die den Vassa gehalten haben, möglich und einfacher für den Eigenbedarf Roben anzunehmen.
 

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Bhante, ist dann die Robengabe möglich ab dem 5. Okt. bid zum nächsten Vollmond oder darf man auch danach Roben geben? :-*
 

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Wie geht es Bhante heute? Haben die Tropfen geholfen?
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Gerestet: funktioniert tadellos. Nochmal alle Zugangsdaten gemailt, Nyom.
 

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Kana hat mit U. Chamroeun das Login mit neuem Passwort erfolglos versucht.
Daraufhin versuchten kana das über die Veränderung über E-mail, aber da erschien, dass die E-mailadresse nicht gültig war (die hatten Bhante auch an kana in der Mail bestätigt)
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September 04, 2017, 11:52:03 AM
Sollte email im Posteingang haben, Nyom Sophorn.
 

Johann

September 04, 2017, 11:41:14 AM
Kann nicht antworten auf was, Nyom Maria? Was und wo genauer?

Nyom Sophorn. Nyom Chomroeun kann kurzlich email Daten bekommen. Mal annehmend das PW auch vergessen, (abgesenhen von der Möglichkeit, link zu drücken wenn) wird Atma ein neues anlegen und ihm mailen.
 

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Werther Bhante , selbiges Problem was ich schon einmal hatte, Login geht aber kann nicht antworten, bin am Nachmittag bei neuen Computer, dieser hier ist schon über 12 Jahre alt.
 

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Kana hat das File runtergeladen und U. Chamroeun gegeben,  der sich um die Kprrektur annehmen möchte. Kana wird auch gern das File den anderen Schülern zum Lesen teilen. Ev. sehen mehr Augen mehr.
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Verehrter Bhante, Chamroeun kann sich nicht einloggen. Ist das Passwort für E-mail oder sangham.net? In beiden Fällen haben kana das erfolglos probiert.
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Johann

August 20, 2017, 01:37:40 AM
Es ist vielleicht gut eine Pause zu tun, doch kann es gut sein, daß man nicht zurückkehrt, für ein gutes oder schlechtes, für sich selbt und andere. Gut dort wo gut genährt und unterstützt und for allem Konzentration steigt, oder dort wo satt in jeder Hinsicht.
 

Johann

August 10, 2017, 11:31:40 AM
Wenn jemand Lust hat, oder anderen etwas Gutes oder Besseres tun kann und möchte: Korrekturlesen http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1018.msg9625.html#msg9625 Baue nach und nach, so gut wie möglich ein auf ZzE.
 

Johann

August 07, 2017, 02:24:55 AM
Einen ausübungsreichen Vollmond-Uposatha and Gelegenheit die Mönche zu besuchen wünscht meine Person.
 

Sophorn

July 25, 2017, 03:59:03 PM
... versteht und womöglich sieht, wenn er nicht den Weg hierher
findet.

Großer Dank an alle im Hintergrund.

Mögen all diese Früchte vielfach zurückkommen und inspirieren.

Ayu vanno sukkham balam

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July 25, 2017, 03:55:25 PM
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karuna tvay bongkum Preah metschah

Herzliches Hallo an alle nach sehr langem!

Ein herzliches Dankeschön aus tiefsten Herzen an alle, die sich hier aktiv und indirekt hier beteiligen. Vor allem ein großes Sadhu an Bhante, der unvergleichliche Arbeit leistet, die kaum jemand ver
 

Johann

July 24, 2017, 03:15:56 AM
Fehlinvestition: Was immer man nicht in die Juwelen, in den Pfad investiert, ist vergeude Mühe, schnurrr einen fest im Rad des Leidens. Prüfen Sie es!   :) Wiederholungstäter...
 

Johann

July 17, 2017, 01:50:17 AM
Moritz
 

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July 16, 2017, 02:28:02 PM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 14, 2017, 07:07:17 AM
Moritz. Gut ihn früh Morgens und nicht bis in den frühen Morgen zu sehen.
 

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July 13, 2017, 08:12:46 AM
Moritz.
 

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July 13, 2017, 07:42:39 AM
Chom reap lea
_/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2017, 07:40:46 AM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2017, 02:26:09 AM
Vor mehr als 2500 Jahen wurde a diesem Vollmondtag das Rad des Dhammas in bewegung gesetzt. Anumodana!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 02, 2017, 08:24:13 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich bedanke mich bei Ihnen für Ihre nette Erklärung.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!

 

Johann

July 01, 2017, 07:43:41 PM
Nyom Mohan. Besser: "Ich hoffe, daß es Ihnen gut geht." und bestens (ohne suggerieren, wenn interessiert) "Wie geht es Ihnen." Oder: "Möge es Ihnen Gut gehen." (wenn metta ausdrücken wollend)
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 01, 2017, 10:43:15 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich glaube, dass es Ihnen gut geht.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 01, 2017, 10:32:46 AM
Werter Micro,
herzliche Grüße aus Sri Lanka nach Deutschland!
 

Johann

July 01, 2017, 10:32:17 AM
Nyom Mohan.
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Alles Zufälle. Nissaya. Und wenn da keine starke Grundlagenursache aufkommt, upanissayapaccayena, na dann war's das, und alles is weg. Lebewesen sind Erben ihrer Taten (im Geist, Wort und Körper).
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:27:24 PM
Schwupps und weg. Waffen und Nahrung geholt.

Oh, was sag ich. Wenn man's doch nehmen kann, auch ohne das Gefühl zu nehmen... Unsinn hier. Hat doch keiner interesse Verdienste zu tun.
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:21:28 PM
Mirco. Wie geht es?
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:20:43 PM
Es ist doch viel angenehmer, wenn man sich nehmen kann was und wann immer man will, oder? Warum sollte man sich so viel antun, da sind genügend die Anbieten.
 

Johann

June 14, 2017, 06:45:07 PM
Jetzt aber vorerst. Möge jeder guten Unterhalt (ung) im Dhamma und Stärkung finden uud sich davon reichlich nehmen.
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

June 11, 2017, 08:24:45 AM
Werter Harry,

ich freue mich darüber, nach einigen Monaten wieder auf sangham.net Sie zu grüßen.

Herzliche Grüße aus Sri Lanka nach Deutschland!
 

Johann

June 09, 2017, 05:05:59 PM
Mögen sich alle, möge sich Guest der Uposatha-Einhaltung nicht nur heute annehmen, und glücksverheißende Zeit verbringen.

May all, may Guest not only today observe the Uposatha and spend auspicious time
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

June 03, 2017, 01:48:08 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

es geht mir zur Zeit gut. Ich glaube, dass es Ihnen auch gut geht.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Johann

June 02, 2017, 11:19:32 PM
Wie geht es Upasaka Mohan?
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

June 02, 2017, 10:51:50 PM
Wie sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann geschrieben hat, hatte ich am 10. Mai 2017 meinen  Geburtstag, an dem Tag  in diesem Jahr das Wesakfest gefeiert wurde.
Beste Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake
 

Johann

June 02, 2017, 12:33:54 PM
Wußte doch, daß so Nahrung immer gefressen werden will.  :)
"Sehr gut, weiter hungern."

Freut das Nyom Marcel wohlauf ist.
 

Marcel

June 02, 2017, 12:20:52 PM
weil "keines" immer noch die bezugnahme auf eines hat!

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