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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Faith-Follower, Dhamma-follower, Stream-Winner - What does one have to worry...?  (Read 260 times)

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Offline Johann

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A nice piece of investigation from Upasaka (?) Gabriel, well supported by trying to take doubt by Upasaka Sarath, Atma likes to share:

Quote from: Gabriel on DD Faith-Follower & Dhamma-Follower
It is mostly understood that stream-entry (sotāpatti) is the first level of an irreversible shift from being a wordling (puthujjana). Several passages have a different view and list two levels before that, namely the faith-follower (saddhānusārī) and the dhamma-follower (dhammānusārī). From the two the dhamma-follower is always ranked higher than the faith-follower.

Defining the Faith- and Dhamma-Follower

SN 48.12 - SN 48.17, SN 48.24 mention the two, but don't mention a specific faith or teachings. In these suttas from all the ariyas the faith- and dhamma-follower simply have the weakest faculties (faith,... wisdom).

DN 28, DN 33, MN 65, AN 7.14, AN 8.22, AN 10.16 also just list them among other types of people with higher realization. MN 70 has a similar list but features definitions as well:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

What kind of person is a Dhamma-follower? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, but those teachings proclaimed by the Tathāgata are accepted by him after reflecting on them sufficiently with wisdom. Furthermore, he has these qualities: the faith faculty, the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty, the concentration faculty, and the wisdom faculty.

What kind of person is a faith-follower? … and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, yet he has sufficient faith in and love for the Tathāgata. [… faculties as before].


SN 55.24, SN 55.25 are similar in definition, but add that faith- and dhamma-followers are freed from the lower realms:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

... [for the dhamma-follower] some person does not possess confirmed confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. He is not one of joyous wisdom, nor of swift wisdom, and he has not attained liberation. However, he has these five things: the faculty of faith... wisdom. And the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata are accepted by him after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom. This person too, Mahanama, is one who does not go to hell, the animal realm, or the domain of ghosts, to the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world.
[for the faith-follower as above...] And he has sufficient faith in the Tathagata, sufficient devotion to him. This person too...

To summarize the above: No liberation, no fetters/taints destroyed, but accepted the teachings, or faith in the Buddha, plus the five faculties.

Faith- and Dhamma-followers as 'mini-sotapannas'

While the above SN 55.24/25 tell us that the two can't go to hell, MN 22 and MN 34 take a stronger stand regarding the fate of the two and have them heading towards liberation:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

…those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers or faith-followers are all headed for enlightenment. (MN 22)

Just as that tender calf just born, being urged on by its mother’s lowing, also breasted the stream of the Ganges and got safely across to the further shore, so too, those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers and faith-followers -
by breasting Māra’s stream they too will get safely across to the further shore. (MN 34)

Faith in / investigating impermanence

SN 25.1 is more explicit about the teachings and gives it a different spin:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Bhikkhus, the eye [ear...] is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise... One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower... [rest as above]
(SN 25.2 - SN 25.10 go on to apply impermanence on forms... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... feelings born of eye-contact... perceptions of forms... volition regarding form... craving for forms... the elements... the aggregates.)

The major difference here is (1) the focus on specific teaching, namely impermanence and (2) that the faith-follower has faith in this teaching, not in the Buddha.

Conclusion

It seems save to say that some concepts about a faith-follower and a dhamma-follower existed in the earliest texts. This is based on (1) occurrence in all four nikayas (2) a diversity of texts, i.e. not just a copy of the same pericope.

The texts agree on several things:
- The dhamma-follower ranks higher than the faith-follower, just below the sotāpanna
- The faculties seem to be involved
- They seem to be aryas in that they are free from rebirth in the lower realms or even heading towards liberation

Inconsistencies are:
- They don't appear nearly as frequently as the other ariyas
- The texts don't agree if the faith is in the Buddha, his teaching, or a specific teaching
- The only specific teaching we get in this context is impermanence - but we don't know if the dhamma-follower investigates (or the faith-follower has faith in) impermanence in all the mentioned dhamma, or if one of them is sufficient.

If you already lost faith that you'd not become a sotāpanna in this lifetime, maybe there's hope: you could well be a faith- or dhamma-follower after all


Quote from: Upasaka Sarath
Quote
...If you already lost faith that you'd not become a sotāpanna in this lifetime, maybe there's hope: you could well be a faith- or dhamma-follower after all :slight_smile:
Actually per SN 25.12, by attaining either Faith or Dhamma Following, one is guaranteed to attain Stream-Entry in his/her lifetime, or worst case, when s/he passes away:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry." ~ SN 25.1 ~

Sadhu!

So what would a Dhamma-follower, Faith-follower have to lose when just returning into "normal" life?

He/she might attain path and fruit not before death has approached and therefore wasted much time with useless things.

He/she might also performe deeds, that have unpleasant effects in possible max. 7 lifes, even if wandering from one good family to another, dwelling under the Devas and of cause still will have to bear the suffering of birth, aging, sickness and death, some more times again.

And the Stream-Winner? Aside of no more conducting unconductive like the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower still can, he/she carries useless the burden of suffering some more times.

And that is why the Buddha leaved, saying just one to them of the four types: "Don't be heedless! Strive for liberation, with Dhamma as your island!"
And "Seek for admirable friends and association with them!", to those who have not reached the path yet, but able to listen, Faith- and Dhamma-follower.

Mudita and Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Danilo

April 15, 2018, 12:43:25 AM
Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

April 15, 2018, 12:38:56 AM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Johann

April 12, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
Moritz
 

Moritz

April 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 07:19:18 PM
Hello.
 

Johann

April 10, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Nyom. (Sideboad ist stets zugeklappt... tech. Probl.) 3:00 ist auch schon guten Tag.
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Good day (night here)
_/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

April 09, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Take your time Nyom Danilo and watch the breath to stay best calm for best benefit. A lot of chances to get ride of many ols burdens.
 

Danilo

April 08, 2018, 06:24:57 PM
_/\_
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 05:54:03 PM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Marcel

April 08, 2018, 09:58:59 AM
sadhu!
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 07:35:17 AM
Sadhu!
 

Moritz

April 08, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
Good Uposatha to all. _/\_
 

Marcel

April 01, 2018, 06:17:08 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 10:11:20 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 31, 2018, 09:52:03 AM
 :-* ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 06:44:11 PM
Atma zieht sich hier nun zurück. Möge sich Vollkommenheit einstellen.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Nyom Binocular.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 04:10:58 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
Brahmane Hanspeter.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Moritz, mag sich Vollendung ergeben. (Chamreun bo)
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Chom reap sour. _/\_
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:11:33 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

March 26, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Nyom Binocular.

my person will leave for today and rests. There have been left some hard challenges (sure for many). May they be releasing taken and increase conviction.
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Gute Antwort. Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 25, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

beste wünsche zurück an erhwürdigen bhante! es ist unsicher wann ich wieder komme! upanissayapaccayena!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
Marcel.
(Heute im Nordkloster, best wünsche vom Abt dort, er fragt stets "Wann kommt er? Ich muß immer an ihn denken."
 

Johann

March 24, 2018, 10:44:34 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 24, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
 :-* heute ist uposatha!! ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen tag! mögen die devas jene bescheid geben, die kein zugang haben! :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Sadhu! Zu was immer einer Zuflucht nimmt, sich hingibt, daran erfreut, das wird/ist sein Schutz, für Bindung oder Ungebundenheit.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM
Moritz
 

Administration

March 21, 2018, 03:42:55 PM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 21, 2018, 03:32:47 PM
 :-* mögen sie alle noch in diesem leben das herz von avijja befreien!!! :-*
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
One leading to peaks pointing downward so that aging, sickness and death can be seen, know him/her as a sage, a giver of release.
 

Johann

March 18, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
One leading people to papanca, promoting rejoicing in objectification as the heart wood, increases to fields of corpse in the world.

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