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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Faith-Follower, Dhamma-follower, Stream-Winner - What does one have to worry...?  (Read 116 times)

Offline Johann

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A nice piece of investigation from Upasaka (?) Gabriel, well supported by trying to take doubt by Upasaka Sarath, Atma likes to share:

Quote from: Gabriel on DD Faith-Follower & Dhamma-Follower
It is mostly understood that stream-entry (sotāpatti) is the first level of an irreversible shift from being a wordling (puthujjana). Several passages have a different view and list two levels before that, namely the faith-follower (saddhānusārī) and the dhamma-follower (dhammānusārī). From the two the dhamma-follower is always ranked higher than the faith-follower.

Defining the Faith- and Dhamma-Follower

SN 48.12 - SN 48.17, SN 48.24 mention the two, but don't mention a specific faith or teachings. In these suttas from all the ariyas the faith- and dhamma-follower simply have the weakest faculties (faith,... wisdom).

DN 28, DN 33, MN 65, AN 7.14, AN 8.22, AN 10.16 also just list them among other types of people with higher realization. MN 70 has a similar list but features definitions as well:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

What kind of person is a Dhamma-follower? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, but those teachings proclaimed by the Tathāgata are accepted by him after reflecting on them sufficiently with wisdom. Furthermore, he has these qualities: the faith faculty, the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty, the concentration faculty, and the wisdom faculty.

What kind of person is a faith-follower? … and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, yet he has sufficient faith in and love for the Tathāgata. [… faculties as before].


SN 55.24, SN 55.25 are similar in definition, but add that faith- and dhamma-followers are freed from the lower realms:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

... [for the dhamma-follower] some person does not possess confirmed confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. He is not one of joyous wisdom, nor of swift wisdom, and he has not attained liberation. However, he has these five things: the faculty of faith... wisdom. And the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata are accepted by him after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom. This person too, Mahanama, is one who does not go to hell, the animal realm, or the domain of ghosts, to the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world.
[for the faith-follower as above...] And he has sufficient faith in the Tathagata, sufficient devotion to him. This person too...

To summarize the above: No liberation, no fetters/taints destroyed, but accepted the teachings, or faith in the Buddha, plus the five faculties.

Faith- and Dhamma-followers as 'mini-sotapannas'

While the above SN 55.24/25 tell us that the two can't go to hell, MN 22 and MN 34 take a stronger stand regarding the fate of the two and have them heading towards liberation:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

…those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers or faith-followers are all headed for enlightenment. (MN 22)

Just as that tender calf just born, being urged on by its mother’s lowing, also breasted the stream of the Ganges and got safely across to the further shore, so too, those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers and faith-followers -
by breasting Māra’s stream they too will get safely across to the further shore. (MN 34)

Faith in / investigating impermanence

SN 25.1 is more explicit about the teachings and gives it a different spin:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Bhikkhus, the eye [ear...] is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise... One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower... [rest as above]
(SN 25.2 - SN 25.10 go on to apply impermanence on forms... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... feelings born of eye-contact... perceptions of forms... volition regarding form... craving for forms... the elements... the aggregates.)

The major difference here is (1) the focus on specific teaching, namely impermanence and (2) that the faith-follower has faith in this teaching, not in the Buddha.

Conclusion

It seems save to say that some concepts about a faith-follower and a dhamma-follower existed in the earliest texts. This is based on (1) occurrence in all four nikayas (2) a diversity of texts, i.e. not just a copy of the same pericope.

The texts agree on several things:
- The dhamma-follower ranks higher than the faith-follower, just below the sotāpanna
- The faculties seem to be involved
- They seem to be aryas in that they are free from rebirth in the lower realms or even heading towards liberation

Inconsistencies are:
- They don't appear nearly as frequently as the other ariyas
- The texts don't agree if the faith is in the Buddha, his teaching, or a specific teaching
- The only specific teaching we get in this context is impermanence - but we don't know if the dhamma-follower investigates (or the faith-follower has faith in) impermanence in all the mentioned dhamma, or if one of them is sufficient.

If you already lost faith that you'd not become a sotāpanna in this lifetime, maybe there's hope: you could well be a faith- or dhamma-follower after all


Quote from: Upasaka Sarath
Quote
...If you already lost faith that you'd not become a sotāpanna in this lifetime, maybe there's hope: you could well be a faith- or dhamma-follower after all :slight_smile:
Actually per SN 25.12, by attaining either Faith or Dhamma Following, one is guaranteed to attain Stream-Entry in his/her lifetime, or worst case, when s/he passes away:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry." ~ SN 25.1 ~

Sadhu!

So what would a Dhamma-follower, Faith-follower have to lose when just returning into "normal" life?

He/she might attain path and fruit not before death has approached and therefore wasted much time with useless things.

He/she might also performe deeds, that have unpleasant effects in possible max. 7 lifes, even if wandering from one good family to another, dwelling under the Devas and of cause still will have to bear the suffering of birth, aging, sickness and death, some more times again.

And the Stream-Winner? Aside of no more conducting unconductive like the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower still can, he/she carries useless the burden of suffering some more times.

And that is why the Buddha leaved, saying just one to them of the four types: "Don't be heedless! Strive for liberation, with Dhamma as your island!"
And "Seek for admirable friends and association with them!", to those who have not reached the path yet, but able to listen, Faith- and Dhamma-follower.

Mudita and Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Johann

July 17, 2017, 01:50:17 AM
Moritz
 

Moritz

July 16, 2017, 02:28:02 PM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 14, 2017, 07:07:17 AM
Moritz. Gut ihn früh Morgens und nicht bis in den frühen Morgen zu sehen.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2017, 07:03:53 AM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2017, 08:12:46 AM
Moritz.
 

Moritz

July 13, 2017, 07:42:39 AM
Chom reap lea
_/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2017, 07:40:46 AM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2017, 02:26:09 AM
Vor mehr als 2500 Jahen wurde a diesem Vollmondtag das Rad des Dhammas in bewegung gesetzt. Anumodana!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 02, 2017, 08:24:13 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich bedanke mich bei Ihnen für Ihre nette Erklärung.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!

 

Johann

July 01, 2017, 07:43:41 PM
Nyom Mohan. Besser: "Ich hoffe, daß es Ihnen gut geht." und bestens (ohne suggerieren, wenn interessiert) "Wie geht es Ihnen." Oder: "Möge es Ihnen Gut gehen." (wenn metta ausdrücken wollend)
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 01, 2017, 10:43:15 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich glaube, dass es Ihnen gut geht.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 01, 2017, 10:32:46 AM
Werter Micro,
herzliche Grüße aus Sri Lanka nach Deutschland!
 

Johann

July 01, 2017, 10:32:17 AM
Nyom Mohan.
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Alles Zufälle. Nissaya. Und wenn da keine starke Grundlagenursache aufkommt, upanissayapaccayena, na dann war's das, und alles is weg. Lebewesen sind Erben ihrer Taten (im Geist, Wort und Körper).
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:27:24 PM
Schwupps und weg. Waffen und Nahrung geholt.

Oh, was sag ich. Wenn man's doch nehmen kann, auch ohne das Gefühl zu nehmen... Unsinn hier. Hat doch keiner interesse Verdienste zu tun.
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:21:28 PM
Mirco. Wie geht es?
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:20:43 PM
Es ist doch viel angenehmer, wenn man sich nehmen kann was und wann immer man will, oder? Warum sollte man sich so viel antun, da sind genügend die Anbieten.
 

Johann

June 14, 2017, 06:45:07 PM
Jetzt aber vorerst. Möge jeder guten Unterhalt (ung) im Dhamma und Stärkung finden uud sich davon reichlich nehmen.
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

June 11, 2017, 08:24:45 AM
Werter Harry,

ich freue mich darüber, nach einigen Monaten wieder auf sangham.net Sie zu grüßen.

Herzliche Grüße aus Sri Lanka nach Deutschland!
 

Johann

June 09, 2017, 05:05:59 PM
Mögen sich alle, möge sich Guest der Uposatha-Einhaltung nicht nur heute annehmen, und glücksverheißende Zeit verbringen.

May all, may Guest not only today observe the Uposatha and spend auspicious time
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

June 03, 2017, 01:48:08 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

es geht mir zur Zeit gut. Ich glaube, dass es Ihnen auch gut geht.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Johann

June 02, 2017, 11:19:32 PM
Wie geht es Upasaka Mohan?
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

June 02, 2017, 10:51:50 PM
Wie sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann geschrieben hat, hatte ich am 10. Mai 2017 meinen  Geburtstag, an dem Tag  in diesem Jahr das Wesakfest gefeiert wurde.
Beste Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake
 

Johann

June 02, 2017, 12:33:54 PM
Wußte doch, daß so Nahrung immer gefressen werden will.  :)
"Sehr gut, weiter hungern."

Freut das Nyom Marcel wohlauf ist.
 

Marcel

June 02, 2017, 12:20:52 PM
weil "keines" immer noch die bezugnahme auf eines hat!
 

Johann

June 02, 2017, 10:23:46 AM
Wenn zwei mehr als eines sid, warum ist dann keines auch eines?
 

Johann

May 20, 2017, 04:30:26 PM
Moritz
 

Moritz

May 20, 2017, 03:42:08 PM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

May 18, 2017, 09:56:06 AM
Sadhu und Mudita.
 

Moritz

May 18, 2017, 09:53:33 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
 

Sophorn

May 18, 2017, 09:22:19 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Wünsche allen einen guten Silatag.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 16, 2017, 01:45:43 PM
Erfreulich
 

Maria

May 16, 2017, 12:09:45 PM
 :-*Werte Sophorn noch am Flughafen getroffen :)
sitzt im Flieger :-*
 

Johann

May 16, 2017, 02:20:58 AM
Ein Dhammatalk, über ein paar Audiofiles, sicher auch gut für ihre Familie, Mutter... http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,7997.0.html
 

Sophorn

May 16, 2017, 02:17:07 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 16, 2017, 02:11:44 AM
Vielleicht möchte Nyom Maria sie noch gerne am Flughafen verabschieden, wenn sie von der Gelegenheit weis.
 

Johann

May 16, 2017, 02:08:13 AM
Gute Reise und beste Wünsche an alle.
 

Sophorn

May 16, 2017, 02:04:14 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 karuna tvay bongkum
kana macht sich in knapp 4h auf den weg nach Wien und dann Richtung K. Ankunft morgen in PP.
gerade ist kana am Sammeln vor der Abreise.
kana wünscht Bhante gute Genesung.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 16, 2017, 01:48:42 AM
Nyom Sophorn. Wieder zurück im Land der Khmer? Mag Reise und Aufenthalt angenehm gewesen sein.
 

Johann

May 10, 2017, 09:51:50 AM
Qi-Van-Chi
 

Johann

May 10, 2017, 01:30:17 AM
Verdienstreiche und befreiende Vesak - Pūjā allen, heute.
 

Johann

May 09, 2017, 09:20:24 AM
Atma will rest a little today and use the "hair cut day" to maintain his body a little for tomorrow's Puja, so see, Moritz has won a whole day today, maybe use it for same. Best wishes!
 

Moritz

May 09, 2017, 08:58:33 AM
Namasakara Bhante.
May you have a good Vesakha Puja!
_/\_
 

Johann

May 08, 2017, 10:43:50 AM
Viel Freude beim Aufräumen und angenehmes "Brotverdienen"
 

Moritz

May 08, 2017, 09:32:47 AM
Muss nun hier aufräumen und bald los Brot verdienen. Wünsche einen angenehmen Tag.
_/\_
 

Moritz

May 08, 2017, 09:25:13 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

May 06, 2017, 05:42:48 PM
Nyom Senghour.
Darf Atma darauf vertrauen, daß es Ihm gut geht?
 

Johann

May 03, 2017, 08:26:24 PM
Hr. Bernd, Atma zieht sich für heute zurück. Viel Freude beim Entdecken.
 

Marcel

April 29, 2017, 11:44:21 AM
 :-*
 

Johann

April 29, 2017, 11:29:06 AM
Atma wird kurz etwas Wasser zum trinken abkochen.

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