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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Faith-Follower, Dhamma-follower, Stream-Winner - What does one have to worry...?  (Read 321 times)

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Online Johann

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A nice piece of investigation from Upasaka (?) Gabriel, well supported by trying to take doubt by Upasaka Sarath, Atma likes to share:

Quote from: Gabriel on DD Faith-Follower & Dhamma-Follower
It is mostly understood that stream-entry (sotāpatti) is the first level of an irreversible shift from being a wordling (puthujjana). Several passages have a different view and list two levels before that, namely the faith-follower (saddhānusārī) and the dhamma-follower (dhammānusārī). From the two the dhamma-follower is always ranked higher than the faith-follower.

Defining the Faith- and Dhamma-Follower

SN 48.12 - SN 48.17, SN 48.24 mention the two, but don't mention a specific faith or teachings. In these suttas from all the ariyas the faith- and dhamma-follower simply have the weakest faculties (faith,... wisdom).

DN 28, DN 33, MN 65, AN 7.14, AN 8.22, AN 10.16 also just list them among other types of people with higher realization. MN 70 has a similar list but features definitions as well:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

What kind of person is a Dhamma-follower? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, but those teachings proclaimed by the Tathāgata are accepted by him after reflecting on them sufficiently with wisdom. Furthermore, he has these qualities: the faith faculty, the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty, the concentration faculty, and the wisdom faculty.

What kind of person is a faith-follower? … and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, yet he has sufficient faith in and love for the Tathāgata. [… faculties as before].


SN 55.24, SN 55.25 are similar in definition, but add that faith- and dhamma-followers are freed from the lower realms:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

... [for the dhamma-follower] some person does not possess confirmed confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. He is not one of joyous wisdom, nor of swift wisdom, and he has not attained liberation. However, he has these five things: the faculty of faith... wisdom. And the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata are accepted by him after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom. This person too, Mahanama, is one who does not go to hell, the animal realm, or the domain of ghosts, to the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world.
[for the faith-follower as above...] And he has sufficient faith in the Tathagata, sufficient devotion to him. This person too...

To summarize the above: No liberation, no fetters/taints destroyed, but accepted the teachings, or faith in the Buddha, plus the five faculties.

Faith- and Dhamma-followers as 'mini-sotapannas'

While the above SN 55.24/25 tell us that the two can't go to hell, MN 22 and MN 34 take a stronger stand regarding the fate of the two and have them heading towards liberation:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

…those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers or faith-followers are all headed for enlightenment. (MN 22)

Just as that tender calf just born, being urged on by its mother’s lowing, also breasted the stream of the Ganges and got safely across to the further shore, so too, those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers and faith-followers -
by breasting Māra’s stream they too will get safely across to the further shore. (MN 34)

Faith in / investigating impermanence

SN 25.1 is more explicit about the teachings and gives it a different spin:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Bhikkhus, the eye [ear...] is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise... One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower... [rest as above]
(SN 25.2 - SN 25.10 go on to apply impermanence on forms... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... feelings born of eye-contact... perceptions of forms... volition regarding form... craving for forms... the elements... the aggregates.)

The major difference here is (1) the focus on specific teaching, namely impermanence and (2) that the faith-follower has faith in this teaching, not in the Buddha.

Conclusion

It seems save to say that some concepts about a faith-follower and a dhamma-follower existed in the earliest texts. This is based on (1) occurrence in all four nikayas (2) a diversity of texts, i.e. not just a copy of the same pericope.

The texts agree on several things:
- The dhamma-follower ranks higher than the faith-follower, just below the sotāpanna
- The faculties seem to be involved
- They seem to be aryas in that they are free from rebirth in the lower realms or even heading towards liberation

Inconsistencies are:
- They don't appear nearly as frequently as the other ariyas
- The texts don't agree if the faith is in the Buddha, his teaching, or a specific teaching
- The only specific teaching we get in this context is impermanence - but we don't know if the dhamma-follower investigates (or the faith-follower has faith in) impermanence in all the mentioned dhamma, or if one of them is sufficient.

If you already lost faith that you'd not become a sotāpanna in this lifetime, maybe there's hope: you could well be a faith- or dhamma-follower after all


Quote from: Upasaka Sarath
Quote
...If you already lost faith that you'd not become a sotāpanna in this lifetime, maybe there's hope: you could well be a faith- or dhamma-follower after all :slight_smile:
Actually per SN 25.12, by attaining either Faith or Dhamma Following, one is guaranteed to attain Stream-Entry in his/her lifetime, or worst case, when s/he passes away:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry." ~ SN 25.1 ~

Sadhu!

So what would a Dhamma-follower, Faith-follower have to lose when just returning into "normal" life?

He/she might attain path and fruit not before death has approached and therefore wasted much time with useless things.

He/she might also performe deeds, that have unpleasant effects in possible max. 7 lifes, even if wandering from one good family to another, dwelling under the Devas and of cause still will have to bear the suffering of birth, aging, sickness and death, some more times again.

And the Stream-Winner? Aside of no more conducting unconductive like the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower still can, he/she carries useless the burden of suffering some more times.

And that is why the Buddha leaved, saying just one to them of the four types: "Don't be heedless! Strive for liberation, with Dhamma as your island!"
And "Seek for admirable friends and association with them!", to those who have not reached the path yet, but able to listen, Faith- and Dhamma-follower.

Mudita and Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Marcel

June 19, 2018, 07:41:34 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Bhante Johann, ich habe die Daten für mein sangham email nicht!! Ich bitte Sie mir diese, aus Mitgefühl, zukommen zu lassen. :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

June 19, 2018, 07:09:43 AM
Hat Nyom Marcel, Khemakumara, noch PW für seine sangham email? Wenn nicht vergibt Atma neues und sendet es an die Adressen wie zuvor.
 

Johann

June 19, 2018, 07:00:27 AM
_/\_ Okasa Bhante, if Bhante likes to give a teaching in regard of Vandami, out of compassion, his merits would be joyful received.
 

Indaññāno

June 19, 2018, 06:55:59 AM
សង្ឃ
 

Johann

June 19, 2018, 06:40:35 AM
_/\_ Bhante Indannano _/\_
 

Marcel

June 19, 2018, 02:48:19 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Bhante Johann, i will let you all khnow when the final going forth has been requested :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

June 19, 2018, 02:39:20 AM
If Bhante has lost account and email settings, let it be known, that my person sends it to marcel@sangham.net
 

Johann

June 19, 2018, 02:37:20 AM
Let all know when the final going forth has been simply requested, simply received, to be able to rejoice with it.
 

Johann

June 19, 2018, 02:33:42 AM
Let all know when the final going forth has been simply requested, simply received, to be able to rejoice with it.
 

Johann

June 19, 2018, 02:31:03 AM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 07:18:53 PM
Bestes Gelingen und Freude dabei.
 

Moritz

June 17, 2018, 05:19:19 PM
Ich verabschiede mich für heut, muss andere Arbeit tun. Einen schönen Sonntag.
_/\_
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 02:30:10 PM
Mudita
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 02:19:16 PM
 :-* :-* :-* die Übung ist besser als im "alten haus"  Zuversicht, geduld und Respekt über den drei juwelen ist da!!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 02:19:05 PM
 :-* :-* :-* die Übung ist besser als im "alten haus"  Zuversicht, geduld und Respekt über den drei juwelen ist da!!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 02:19:02 PM
 :-* :-* :-* die Übung ist besser als im "alten haus"  Zuversicht, geduld und Respekt über den drei juwelen ist da!!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:53:53 PM
Wie immer recht, Nyom. Wie stets mit der Übung und allem neu und unperfekt?
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:42:40 PM
 :-*  :-* :-* anumodana :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:40:03 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

Der ehrwürdige bhante besitzt noch den pc ! Bhante idananno ist für 2 Tage nach phnom phen. Wenn bhante wieder. Da ist, werde ich ihn  fragen und mich darum kümmern dass bhante  einen Zugang zum onlinekloster bekommt!  :-* :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:26:26 PM
Hat Bhante noch den alten PC und das USB modem? Wenn Nyom, nach fragen, seine Sim da reintut, kann er damit sangham.net erreichen. Atma Tel. Nr. 012 345 025 wenn Nyom etwas benötigt.
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
Entwürdiger bhante Johann, alles fein hier! Ich kann nun, über mein altes Handy, auf das online-Kloster zugreifen!
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:22:11 PM
Entwürdiger bhante Johann, alles fein hier! Ich kann nun, über mein altes Handy, auf das online-Kloster zugreifen!
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:15:07 PM
Nyom? Marcel? Alles fein?
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:14:25 PM
Atma kann nicht slowenisch, nur etwas Windisch/Kärntnerisch.

Soviele Raunzwörter... nie über Segensausdrücke gestolpert.

Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.
 

Moritz

June 17, 2018, 10:15:01 AM
Pozdravljeni, Guest!
 

Johann

June 16, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
Sadhu, may Nyom nourish on and rejoice with the merits done and gain pleasant and insightful dwellings of access.
 

Moritz

June 16, 2018, 04:32:09 PM
Chom reap lea.
May Bhante have a good day.
_/\_
 

Johann

June 16, 2018, 09:51:31 AM
Sokh chomreoun Nyom.

(May sukha (happiness) grow to its perfection, "previous father/relative")
 

Moritz

June 16, 2018, 09:38:06 AM
Vandami, Bhante.
Ich bin erst mal weg hier.
_/\_
 

Johann

June 12, 2018, 10:15:27 AM
Mag man sich, mag sich jeder, der Erinnerung an den Neumonduposatha, für geschicktes nutzen.

May everyone takes the New-moon Uposatha as a reminder for acting skilfully
 

Johann

June 06, 2018, 07:21:10 PM
Sadhu!
 

Sophorn

June 06, 2018, 03:02:27 AM
Einen verdienstvollen Uposatha heute  :-*
 

Johann

May 29, 2018, 06:44:12 PM
So der Tag mit Sonnenaufgang beginnt, ist selbt in Asien noch viel Gelegenheit dazu.
 

Sophorn

May 29, 2018, 05:53:50 PM
Möge heute ein verdienstvoller Tag gewesen sein!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 29, 2018, 11:57:01 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 29, 2018, 11:37:19 AM
 :-* :-* :-*

mögen sie alle ein verdienstvollen uposatha haben!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 22, 2018, 10:11:37 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 22, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
einen verdienstvollen uposatha wünsche ich allen  :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

May 19, 2018, 03:07:57 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

ehrwürdiger bhante

 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 19, 2018, 03:05:38 PM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 01:24:42 PM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 14, 2018, 01:23:37 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha

 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 08:34:09 AM
Schüsse von Wilderern am Tag sind ja nicht ungewöhnlich, doch aus mehreren Richtungen und automatischen Waffen doch bisher hier nicht üblich gewesen. Möge niemand anderen Schaden zufügen und sich mit Abstehen davon jeder beschützen.
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 01:06:38 AM
It's not an accident that you came here and it will be not an accident whether one stays, comes back or leaves for another becoming or goes beyond.
 

Johann

May 13, 2018, 06:51:53 AM
Mag da keiner seine Mutter an dem Tag vergessen zu ehren.
 

Johann

May 11, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
Nyom Marcel.

Schlangentag und -nacht heute. Wem mag man was vergönnen? Der Schlange? Den Mäusen? Metta & Samvega oder umgekehrt? Mal angstlos Hunger, mal Angst, mal Maus, mal Schlange, essen, gegessen, verfolgen, gejagt...
 

Marcel

May 11, 2018, 11:57:36 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
ehrwürdiger bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 10, 2018, 04:00:02 PM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Marcel

May 09, 2018, 03:08:42 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 09, 2018, 07:01:42 AM
Nyom Matthew.

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