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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Proper way to ask a teacher to become their student  (Read 856 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] Proper way to ask a teacher to become their student

Proper way to ask a teacher to become their student

Proper way to ask a teacher to become their student


I'm seeking a meditation/dharma teacher to help strengthen my practice, once I find one and establish some relationship what is the proper way to request becoming their student. I'm interested in The etiquette for lay or monastic. Also where I am there is not a strong community of practice what suggestions if any does anyone have about online teachers/instruction? (Hazards/cautions) if the relationship has to be long distance what steps can I take to make it more beneficial?

Quote from: Johann
   
To start to introduce your self with name and face, is maybe a good 1. advice, what does ?? think? Some general advices for sure useful here. The better you ways and understanding what is good conduct the better the chances to gain a good teacher. To ask such is already great but its also good to ask at proper places with certain usuals

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" - which also could have been changed by third person - that can be found here . )


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.

Introduction

Before teaching the Dhamma, the Buddha would expect certain thing from one: Respect, generosity, patient and the willingness to virtue, before then teaching about the Devas and good dwellings in the world, the disadvantage and if possible followed till here, the Four Noble Truth.

Knowing that many of you might have access to his teachings, my person tries to give a practical teacher for each step. If you do not have the right people next to you, living the talk, although you might have access to the words, you might not succeed: but sometimes, better than searching for the perfect teacher, is to look for one that helps you right where you are stuck for now.

So if, after wise reflecting, you find out that you have authority problems, seek for somebody able to tame you, friends who practice paying respect with body and speech and learn that, till you are able to give gratitude rise.

So here are some bits of advice for the foundations, to gain enough right view, to be able to be considered worthy for sacrifies, and if having the feeling that you are not worthy at all out of wrong self-estimate, just go on and serve and help around and for a person you believe that he represents good attributes and has wisdom.

Don't search for people who you estimate as lower or equal in regard of good virtues, as you would like to when you look for a friend; but look for someone you really can develop "love", a certain kind of fear and respect, people who are able to dominate you and tame you; while at the same time, be sure that they do not depend on you even a little, whether materially nor immaterially. A paid teacher is no teacher at all; a honor-needing teacher is never a high teacher. A teacher accepting you as his disciple for not just giving you as as possible leave, is not free of defilements.
Wherever you are able for now, start to give: for your consumer attitude will never bring you to the Dhamma, how ever much merits you might have, how ever much access to information you have, you might stay as poor as you are and live a live of a hungry ghost again and again, when not turning to give at first place and practice that on and on.

All you estimate as not grasp-worthy, painful, annoying for now and not praising generosity, service for inferior and going forth, all this are you many teacher you should work with.

Only if one wisely prepares one step by step to be possible be tamed and cuts of all his ways out of this prison of practice, can estimate good teachers (inwardly and outwardly) and success in liberation.

If one seeks for liberation before taking on this prison or other ways around, there is no way to success, even all possible control in this world.

Upasika Nina van Gorkum wrote some words on The Greatest Blessings , the Mangala Sutta, which also explains well the Steps to be fulfilled to get the highest gift of teaching and being able to take and penetrate it.

At the end a short list of duties in regard of teacher, be they lay people or ascetics:
 
Quote
  • (i) by rising from the seat in salutation,
  • (ii) by attending on him,
  • (iii) by eagerness to learn,
  • (iv) by personal service,
  • (v) by respectful attention while receiving instructions.
  • (i) by lovable deeds,
  • (ii) by lovable words,
  • (iii) by lovable thoughts,
  • (iv) by keeping open house to them,
  • (v) by supplying their material needs.

The Layperson's Code of Discipline

Different kind of teache-student relationships

Request

Duties

Leave

(Sadhu! For editing grammer, spelling and layout, Nyom Chris )

Anumodana!

[To be continued]
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 02:10:55 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Different kind of teacher-student relationships
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 10:31:22 AM »
 *sgift*
Different kind of teacher-student relationships

It's worthy and importand, that the Buddha did give only in regard of his founded ancestorship detail explainings, rules and guidelines: Bhikkhu to Bhikkhu.

While there are some indications in regard of Bhikkhu and Samanera, where certain lineage factors are already present, the teaching relation in regard of lay people is totally out of concrete order by the Buddha, and can be seen only as a free teacher and student relation ship, called Upasaka, Upasika, follower or attend and not directly regulated as a teacher-student relation. Mainly because in the case of lay-person and monk, it can become easily a corrupt relation by depending on each other: giving Dhamma for the four requisites as well as giving requisites for Dhamma. In a monk to monk relation, both will merely come from the teacher and so the teaching can possible stay without corruption. The other thing is, that be giving up home and living in dependency on a teacher while serving him, the prerequisites for receiving Dhamma are possible best given: generosity, by giving up material things, patient and willingness to virtue.

My person might doubt in this case, but as far as he can se and as far as he read an heared, the Buddha did not gave such as a clear allowence to accept lay people as student in a formal relation. It was out of course not intended by the Buddha, that his ancestorship would leave the Sangha of Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis in manners of conventional issues.

So also lay- to lay person relations do not have been given any formality by the Buddha and both, monk-layman and layman-layman-relations can not be seen as a ancestorship on an convetional level and out of lacking given conduct/Vinaya in this regard, such models and appearences are either of short lasting or soon very corrupt.

While certain traditions go here totally agains the given, a formal student-teacher relation between laypeople an laypeople an laypeople and monks is not realy suggested by the Buddha, willing to keep his Dhamma and the way of live best possible without effluents. On one hand to keep the Dhamma clean and on the other hand to keep the carrier community alive. With all modern ways under influence of Mahayana (moha-yana, deluded-vehicle), less personal gain as well soon destruction through improper relation between monks and lay people as well by copies can be estimated.

A further missing feature or this relations is that they have no real protective tools and we know about the many scandals in the sphere of such relations.

If one has gained good faith in the tripple gems, the traditional way would be assisting and helping as much as possible as layman, in all wordily regards of the monks or a certain monk and in that way not only find out much about his virtue, generosity, wisdom and so on, but also train already eager in virtue, since veneration and service are already elements of the virtue section of the path, so straighten right view at the same time, possible taking on precepts, living next to them and maybe one day also asking for going forth, either as Samanera or Bhikkhu, where such as a formal relation would beginn and the prerequisites are well established to receive the higher teaching in a way and circumstances that is conductive to be able to receive and understand proper.

While the only needed requirement to receive teaching from a monk, would be showing signs of respect or minimum no distespect, its usual to ask for refuge and possible precepts to give best expression that one is proper adjusted to receive a particular teaching. Tratitional such would be made then by requesting three times. Such is no more needed, if living next or the monks know about your tendencies and virtue. After having received the teaching, the relation ends by going ones own way. Note that in the case one likes to make an offering, one should offer it fist, best as first act when meeting monks, since they are not allowed to accept gifts for teaching the Dhamma. In this way, both, the gifts of requisites and the gift of Dhamma will be always a matter of pure generosity and not a matter for both parts, teacher and student.

Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: [Q&A] Proper way to ask a teacher to become their student
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2018, 01:58:58 PM »
Duties

Many - althought not offical in regard of student-teacher relationship outside the Sangha - proper ways to ask, to serve, to relate, to leave and to ask for forgiviness are found in the Mahavagga, such as:
Some things like Vandami (paying respect and ask for forgiviness) are traditional usual also between Bhikkhus, other monastics and lay people.

Many other things are done similar, but of cource with certain proper distance.

It's aside many things around and in these chapers maybe worthy to point out, that the most importand is, that disciples

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“A pupil endowed with five qualities should not be dismissed. With regard to his teacher he has strong affection, has strong confidence, has a strong sense of shame, has strong respect, has strong development. A pupil endowed with these five qualities should not be dismissed.

“When a pupil is endowed with five qualities he is fit to be dismissed. With regard to his teacher he does not have strong affection, does not have strong confidence, does not have a strong sense of shame,does not have strong respect, does not have strong development (in the practice). A pupil endowed with these five qualities is fit to be dismissed.

Also that, if dismissed, there is a certain need (duty) to ask for forgiving. Aside of not dismissing if proper to dismiss, or dismissing if not proper to dismiss, are not to be done by a teacher.

And it's possible understandable that a improper student-teacher relation, we find so often in our days, just look at normal schools, based on compromise, improper compassion or simply doing jobs for a livelihood, has no long time lasting good impact. Having gained skills in a improper way, one will either hurt himself, others, or both with it, not to speak that real teacher, if growing common, will simply disapear.

That has to be seen in regard of the Sangha at large, or the lay 'community' as well. So it's the wiser way to follow certain traditions where such a relation is long time maintained, also where this traditions are unknown or till today as "child-stuff" and "degrading" rejected.

If there is no willingness to jump into the part of a child, degrading oneself for a disciple or if the teacher is not willing or able to act the part as a father, neither a good for the student, nor for the teacher, and the relations impact on others, can be expected.

Next to equal, if even, one may be able to maintain of what has been already gained and one might have a pleasant dwelling, but no prosperity can be expected.

So if meeting "teacher" who are likely to act "cool" in rejecting venerations, proper adressing, proper service, inviting merely to a homi-hood, don't go for that.

One who has no regard of proper behavior toward higher, is either lower or just equal, and what could one learn in this way? So one who does not value your great gifts, does not see them, is not able to receive them, but merely asks and directs you to act like an equal friend, as not to be taken as useful teacher.

Yet of course, many of the infomations out there tell one a different.

If willing to grow toward liberation, to seek and accept authority is most needed. If cutting that of from the beginning, it's not only that one will unlikely find any teacher and unlikely that one would get taimed, defilement uprooted and guided toward unbound.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 02:09:21 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

September 14, 2018, 07:11:41 AM
Und was ist die Grundlage für das Aukommen (paccaya) von Saddhā? Dukkha ist die Grundlage für das Aufkommen von Vertrauen (Händen und Füßen). Viel Dukkha! um Khema zu werden.
 

Johann

September 14, 2018, 07:02:53 AM
Eine Person ohne Vertrauen, Saddhaa, so sagen die Weisen, ist wie jemand ohne Hände und ohne Füße.

Also besser heute "unperfekt" beginnen, Anstelle perfekt wiedermal weiter nirgendwo Zuflucht zu erlangen. "Da ist nichts Gutes, es sei den man tut es."
 

Johann

September 11, 2018, 02:42:47 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

September 10, 2018, 03:39:32 PM
Ein Besucher. Wie geht es den Katzen?
 

Johann

September 08, 2018, 01:28:03 AM
Meister Hanspeter
 

Johann

September 05, 2018, 08:34:31 AM
At Buddhas times, so in times of Ajahn Mun, Upāli was the great supporter of the Kassapa, now the "Upalis" just make their livelihoods with it. Sad but true: or "nor for sure?"
 

Johann

September 05, 2018, 08:31:06 AM
It's like with Metallica- Fans and their producer, or to put it into Buddhas words: Uposatha of the cowboys.
 

Johann

September 05, 2018, 08:27:52 AM
Today many trade an nurish on the reputation of forest or kammaṭṭhāna - monks, making their livelihood with it by giving books, while wasting away their own goodness and possibilities actually destruct their upanissaya to it.
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 07:16:53 PM
mit gahaṭṭha den Tag abschließend und segenreichen (verdienstvollen puñña) Sonntag allen anregend.
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 09:43:50 AM
Was immer Mönch/Lehrer im Westen/moderenen Welt weilt, ist entweder Außenseiter oder (möglich ist) Arahant. Denken Sie nach.
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 09:41:14 AM
Suchen Sie die Theras in traditionellem Land. Die Mitglieder anderer Sekten/"Buddhisten/moderne, arroganz/dünkel gefangen, sind verloren!
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 09:38:20 AM
Das ist so klärend... ohne, wie die Westlichen Lehrer, jemals in alte Kultur und Sprache eingetaucht zu sein, vermag man nicht mal Pali richtig übersetzen, scjreiben, dann erst Buddhavaca verstehen.
 

Johann

August 30, 2018, 03:39:04 PM
Be prepared to die! Pets -life in a rich country is nice, but you would not understand anything: paṭisandhi (Com., Mahavihara)
 

Johann

August 30, 2018, 01:38:39 PM
 

Johann

August 26, 2018, 10:06:36 PM
Verdienstreichen Vollmond-Uposatha Ausklang allen.
 

Johann

August 22, 2018, 06:04:12 AM
"No mercy" :) soweit Trübungen nicht hindern, Nyom Moritz und Mudita.
 

Moritz

August 22, 2018, 05:07:08 AM
Ich verabschiede mich. Viele Dinge zu ordnen. _/\_
 

Moritz

August 22, 2018, 04:50:41 AM
 _/\_
Gut zu hören, auch wenn sicher relativ.
Mögen Bhante genug Schonung finden. _/\_
 

Johann

August 22, 2018, 04:37:12 AM
Gegenüber dem "Sterben" gestern, "pumperlg'sund" auf Wienerisch. Sadhu der Nachfrage, Nyom Moritz.
 

Moritz

August 22, 2018, 04:10:10 AM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
Wie geht es Ihnen körperlich?
 

Johann

August 17, 2018, 02:21:49 AM
Mein's oder nicht meines, (Gier) Liebe oder Hass... Da sind wenige, die Blumen im Wald stehen lassen und Insekten nicht töten, weder bleiben noch gehen, und alles geben aus Wohlwollen und Mitgefühl, Weisheit gewonnen, Geiz besiegt und Güte ohne zu vereinnahmen. Wie konnten andere diese je sehen,
 

Johann

August 13, 2018, 05:13:25 AM
Händler mögen es nicht sich für passendes Mudita hinzugeben, und würden nur in Lob über deren Handelsware sprechen. Warum Leute Lobenswertes nicht loben: apacayana eine er 12 Personen: "...ein Geschäftsmann, sich seiner Schuld zum Arbeiten für seinen Vorteil verschrieben."
 

Johann

August 11, 2018, 12:06:41 AM
Erfreuenden und klärenden Neumond-Uposatha, den Ehrw. Herren, Anhängern und Interessierten.
 

Johann

August 10, 2018, 08:31:57 PM
Sokh chomreoun Nyom. Möge sich Sukha zur Vollständigkeit mehren.
 

Moritz

August 10, 2018, 06:20:44 PM
Ich muss wieder an die Arbeit. Einen angenehmen Abend, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

August 10, 2018, 05:25:27 PM
Nyom Moritz.

Nyom Mohan.
 

Moritz

August 10, 2018, 05:18:04 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante _/\_
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

August 05, 2018, 12:58:01 PM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich habe der Gruppe „ Anussavika“ beigetreten.

Dhamma Grüβe an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Johann

July 31, 2018, 04:38:15 PM
Den Weg kennend, im Vertrauen jenen folgen ihn gehend, gegangen, sich dann ausschließlich um die Enihsltung des Weges kümmer, gelangt man nach oben und hinaus. So, in dieser Weise, ist "der Weh ist das Ziel zu verstehen.
 

Johann

July 31, 2018, 04:33:35 PM
Mögen alles stets vorrangig auf die Qualitäten von Handlungen und Hingaben, die Ursachen für Früchte achten und nicht wie dumme gewöhnliche Leute, Zeile fixieren und danach gfreifen, die Ursachen damit fehlen, nie zu Früchten kommend, falscher Mitteln für Wirkung bedient.

Mudita
 

Johann

July 28, 2018, 07:38:00 AM
on how the blessed hobby, the liberating anime, the sublime gotchi decays for one and at a certain point for all: Dhamma-Gotchi and only fake last for some times lasting till also the mythos decays.
 

Johann

July 26, 2018, 01:50:45 PM
Morgen, Vollmond vor dem Vassa seiend, mag jener, der nicht zu sehr verstrickt in Fehlinvestitionen, die Gelegenheit für Lösung von Verstrickungen zu nützen vermögen.
 

Johann

July 26, 2018, 01:50:20 PM
Morgen, Vollmond vor dem Vassa seiend, mag jener, der nicht zu sehr verstrickt in Fehlinvestitionen, die Gelegenheit für Lösung von Verstrickungen zu nützen vermögen.
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 08:01:16 PM
Danke für die Infos
und eine friedliche Nacht
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 06:27:44 PM
Atma, zieht sich nun zurück, wieder spät geworden, Nyom. Ruhe Freude und Geduld beim ungestörten Erkunden und Gelegenheiten, Gegeben-heiten, nutzen.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:13:38 PM
Atma wird das Gespräch nun versuchen in Passendes Thema im Forum zu kopieren.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
In Sorge Unmut ob der Situation, gänzlich anders Vorgestellt,  zu mehren, hatte Johann nicht nach Marcel gefragt. Doch hätte er, würde er er erwähnen, wenn da dringliches und triftige Sorge um Marcel wäre. Gute Übung und Lehre, alles in allem, für viele, wenn danach ausgerichtet. Also einfach
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
Bhante Indannano, Johann angerufen habend, kurz, vor Tagen, unterrichtet geworden das Johann am Weg in die Hauptstadt sein, hatte sich sehr zurückhaltend und kurz gehalten. Wohl nicht mit den weltlichen Hindernissen all zu Erfreut und noch ungelößt.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:03:21 PM
Im Verwenden des Forums, überall, keine Sorge irgendwo was Falsch zu machen, ist es Stressfreier und Langlebiger, auch für andere, als Geschenk, Nyom Roman. Woimmer.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:00:55 PM
Nyom kam Nyom als "füherer Elternteil/Verwandter" betrachten. Hie etwas Technischer: ញោម "Nyom", ñoma - Ursprung bzw. Bedeutung
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:56:10 PM
Wenn Sie sich freimachen können, besuchen Sie ihn, und machen Sie Entdeckungsreise in unbekannter Welt, während ihm vielleich Weltliches abnehmen könnend.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:53:55 PM
mit Freude tun oder Geben mag, wo immer, ist vorallem für Roman glücksverheißend, neben Moraluscher Stange zum Glück für ihn haltend.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:51:42 PM
Mag er sicher Abstand von Unsicherm Gewinnen. Was immer Roman sich inspiriet fühlt, geschicktes, niemanden Verletzendes zu geben, zu tun, gar vielleicht mehr an jemand erhabener als "nur" eigener Bruder denkend,
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:49:04 PM
  Und was bedeutet Nyom...Ich habe versucht zu übersetzen.  Jedoch weiß ich nicht ob der Bezug richtig ist
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:48:39 PM
Johann hat ihn schon länger nicht persönlich getroffen, ob in Buchstaben, am Ohr oder mit mehr Sinnen. Gestern war er wohl online hier. Denke er ist sehr vertieft in der Praxis und hat eigentlich wenig Interesse sich um Äußerses zu kümmern.
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:46:46 PM
Beim lesen von den Beiträgen fällt es mir noch bißchen schwer alles zu verstehen...Ich frage mich gerade wer Atma ist..Und moritz bist du für die Internetseite zuständig?  
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:43:49 PM
Hallo,

Ich lese viel hier und wollte mich mal erkundigen wie es mit Marcel so steht..Hatte letzte Woche mit ihm gesprochen und es geht ihm gut! Hatte Johann geschrieben wie ich helfen kann..
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:41:15 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Sophorn

July 20, 2018, 05:09:54 AM
Sadhu. Möge es ein verdienstvolller Tag sein!
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 20, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Allen einen verdienstvollen Silatag, der letzte vor dem Antritt der Regenrückzugszeit.

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