* * * *

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Recent Topics

[January 19, 2018, 02:50:33 PM]

[January 19, 2018, 11:44:12 AM]

[January 19, 2018, 07:30:51 AM]

[January 19, 2018, 06:16:20 AM]

[January 18, 2018, 02:18:09 PM]

[January 18, 2018, 10:04:23 AM]

[January 18, 2018, 06:13:18 AM]

[January 18, 2018, 05:32:04 AM]

[January 18, 2018, 04:53:22 AM]

[January 18, 2018, 01:57:02 AM]

[January 15, 2018, 09:15:20 PM]

[January 14, 2018, 09:56:25 AM]

[January 13, 2018, 07:15:25 PM]

[January 13, 2018, 05:40:29 PM]

[January 13, 2018, 05:24:49 PM]

[January 13, 2018, 04:42:42 PM]

[January 13, 2018, 11:50:24 AM]

[January 12, 2018, 06:12:47 PM]

[January 12, 2018, 02:57:17 PM]

[January 12, 2018, 11:46:06 AM]

[January 09, 2018, 07:32:38 PM]

[January 09, 2018, 01:20:56 PM]

[January 09, 2018, 11:15:49 AM]

[January 09, 2018, 07:35:21 AM]

[January 09, 2018, 07:30:04 AM]

[January 09, 2018, 05:11:20 AM]

[January 09, 2018, 05:09:36 AM]

[January 09, 2018, 03:08:52 AM]

[January 09, 2018, 01:29:24 AM]

[January 08, 2018, 02:39:29 PM]

[January 07, 2018, 03:55:15 AM]

[January 05, 2018, 07:17:28 AM]

[January 04, 2018, 12:49:58 PM]

[January 03, 2018, 12:56:52 PM]

[January 03, 2018, 12:05:50 PM]

[January 01, 2018, 02:05:13 PM]

[January 01, 2018, 12:52:24 PM]

[January 01, 2018, 10:57:04 AM]

[January 01, 2018, 10:16:16 AM]

[January 01, 2018, 10:12:54 AM]

[January 01, 2018, 03:51:14 AM]

[December 31, 2017, 04:34:36 PM]

[December 31, 2017, 08:38:00 AM]

[December 31, 2017, 05:33:43 AM]

[December 31, 2017, 04:44:17 AM]

[December 30, 2017, 10:20:20 AM]

[December 30, 2017, 09:47:04 AM]

[December 29, 2017, 03:25:41 PM]

[December 29, 2017, 02:43:34 PM]

[December 28, 2017, 02:58:21 PM]
[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] (Is) "Attacking" others with words such as they are weapons (noble?)  (Read 246 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +320/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Note: This talk on a question outside has come into being in realtion with "Weise tadeln oder nicht? Und was Buddha dazu ermahnte.

[[Q&A] (Is) "Attacking" others with words such as they are weapons (noble?)

Attacking others with words such as they are weapons


1
down vote
favorite
Reference needed. I remember reading a sutta where Buddha mentioned something like a stream enterer would no longer use words to attack others like weapons. I would like to read that sutta in its entirety again. Thanks.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" - which also could have been changed by third person - that can be found here . )


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.



There are already good answers (as for a part of the question, and not thought about the intent of the question), Nyom Dean, but we need to be careful to take this answers not as a weapon against those who deedly compassioned like to cut away our defilements which are claiming the talked in this Suttas by hard when they are attacted as means to let them survive. Many take the Dhamma as weapon against the three juwels and so was it even in the Buddhas time:
 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa


..."Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: 'Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?' If Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, lord, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut[1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."... read the whole about right Speech

The Buddha, like all other good teacher, are actually very skilled in use there weapon and there are many stories where they "brought" the "opposer" on the floor, "won over him" made his defilements neutal and even dis-manteled him in front of a big group, but not for any gain or to higher themselves, but to bring him in a situation where he can be talked the Dhamma, has no change to escape, or like in cases like in the above sutta, to bring his disciples again on the lain (or speak to them clear that somebody acts wrong).

A good sample in regard of one of the many fights we find in the teachings is: Cula-Saccaka Sutta: The Shorter Discourse to Saccaka

Many of the Suttas in MN may offer to see that it is not the most skillful to lay down the sword of skilled speech but show like in AN 4.100 , that equanimity is not the highes skill:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -


"There are, Master Gotama, those four kinds of persons found existing in the world. Of those four, the one that seems to me the most excellent and sublime is the one who speaks dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, and the dispraise is accurate, truthful, and timely; and who also speaks praise of someone who deserves praise, and the praise is accurate, truthful, and timely. For what reason? Because what excels, Master Gotama, is knowledge of the proper time to speak in any particular case.

(proper time is when possible and nessesary, sometimes also "just" for others if the certain doer is not capable to take.)

So to give the answer, "Does a stream-enter still uses the weapon of speech", the last Sutta and the samples of Buddha, his disciples, till good teachers of today, will show: "Yes (if wishing) he/she will use the weapon of even strong speech (yet still not with word of fools an outcasts), but not for gain, not to harm and simply out of compassion, less are able to receive.", and if a stream enter would have use it in affect in a wrong way (with akusala mind), maybe as defense (never for intended gain!), as a break of good conduct, he would suddenly confess his wrong doing. So it might aslo happen that a Noble One uses not nice word wrongly.

It's good to do not just pick up certain things from the teachings and use it as weapon. Most Dhamma-Dealer (those who make a livelihood in teaching, or gain, claim and sometimes even provide no defilement-cutting of speech, "peaceful, not opposing speech, ever lovely speech", because the costumers and fans like that, or better their defilements and so they are able to make more gain while simply slander and harm the Dhamma and lead people to fools. Why? Because what counts is the truth and not artifacted peace for nobodies benefit.

Take care to do not use this weapon Dhamma to kill youself off. That goes quick if grasping the head of the snake, walk a way of demand peace and metta (yet on fight and aversive your self), and if not willing to put oneself under good authority, its hard to get the right way.

Hope that this - surely at first - unpleasant answer reaches the worriors and warriors at the right time before theiy cut them off with an haft and incomplete weapon and reason to fight.

Many think "Oh I Won." Having make a visible strike. But the cut of the other war's so sharp that they still do not realice that the head has been seperated already and it's just a matter of time that he will fall down."
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -


[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

What do you think? Is this a sample of a Monk you harms you? Heavily harmed your defilements? And/Or sharp words to stay on track and to keep you from serious wrongdoing? Deeply compassioned with some good wisdom, or the act of a fool? Think good and wise about it and its up to the wisdom of the receiver if a gift is taken or rejected. Meaning at least, only a Noble One would recognice another with secure. Just one who had seen will know if a reminder is right. Other need to think, test, observe and bring it to have seen by my self fist or have deep faith.


Anumodana!

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 
17 Guests, 1 User
Johann
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
January 20, 2018, 04:32:34 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Talkbox

 

Moritz

Today at 01:29:11 AM
_/\_
 

Johann

January 19, 2018, 11:14:34 AM
Sokh chomreoun, Nyom (, verspätet, Zeile meist eingeklappt, wohl ein Browser - cookie Fehler)
 

Moritz

January 19, 2018, 05:35:24 AM
_/\_ Namasakara, Bhante
_/\_
 

Johann

January 18, 2018, 05:06:38 AM
..wäre es nicht passend "Gestehen" anzunehmen, selbes Ups habend. Jedoch ist es in dem Fall ja noch gut gegangen und daher Grund für gemeinsames "gerade noch" und Mudita. Gut das gewisse Verbindungen und Wahrnehmen nicht abreißt (reißen kann) und absehbar passiert.
 

Johann

January 18, 2018, 05:02:41 AM
Atma war, aus irgend einem Grund, fest überzeugt, das gestern Uposatha sein sollte, trotzdem er am Almosengang gar Laien in Wat ziehen sah (denkend, gut auch heute an punna teilzunehmen). Selbigem Thema gegegnend, sah Atma nach und mußte feststellen, das bereits der 16. war. So zu diesem Ausmaß (
 

Moritz

January 17, 2018, 10:36:54 PM
 

Johann

January 17, 2018, 01:08:49 PM
Und gestern? Übersehen, oder verdienstvoll?
 

Sophorn

January 09, 2018, 07:48:37 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
sadhu. anumodana.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

January 09, 2018, 01:51:15 AM
Sadhu! Anumodana!
 

Marcel

January 09, 2018, 01:39:30 AM
 :-*allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha :-*
 

Johann

January 03, 2018, 11:42:34 AM
ធម្មតា ញោម។ Dhammatā, Ñoma.
 

Marcel

January 03, 2018, 10:39:23 AM
 :-* បាទ :-*  អរគុណ :-*  ខ្ញុំសុខសបាយជាទទអរគុណ  :-* ehrwürdiger bhante, ja mir geht es gut! ich hab mich er-holt!  wie geht es ihnen?  :-*
 

Johann

January 03, 2018, 10:30:20 AM
Marcel. Er- oder besser vielleicht Entholt und Verdaut?
 

Marcel

January 03, 2018, 10:24:49 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Chanroth

January 02, 2018, 04:59:02 AM
សាធុសាធុ :-*
 

Johann

January 01, 2018, 02:05:59 PM
Sokh chomreuon, Nyom.
 

Chanroth

January 01, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
 :-* :-* :-*Karuna tvay bongkum
 

Johann

January 01, 2018, 12:42:33 AM
Einen freidvollen und erkenntnisreichen Vollmond Uposatha, am ersten Tag des Jahres.
 

Johann

December 31, 2017, 05:59:48 PM
Also hier spricht man nun schon von Wiedergeburt 2018.
 

Maria

December 30, 2017, 10:19:57 AM
Danke, wird weitergegeben und ebenfalls die besten Wünsche retour
 

Johann

December 30, 2017, 10:12:19 AM
Beste Wünsche und Grüße in den Kreis der Familien, Freunde und Lieben und möge man viel Zeit mit den Älteren, guten Gönnern und Weisen verbringen, sich nicht zu sehr Panalem hingeben.
 

Maria

December 30, 2017, 10:09:05 AM
Zeichen davor ist leider unpassend.
 

Maria

December 30, 2017, 10:05:41 AM
 :-*Werter Bhante
 

Johann

December 30, 2017, 10:04:46 AM
Njom Maria.
 

Johann

December 23, 2017, 01:56:19 PM
Funtioniert hier gut, Nyom Sophorn
 

Sophorn

December 23, 2017, 01:35:54 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
Karuna tvay bongkum
kana ist aufgefallen, dass die Bilder sich schlecht runterladen lassen. Hat das mit dem Server zu tun oder doch eine Störung hier in Ö? :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

December 23, 2017, 12:01:30 PM
មើលនិងចែករំលែកដោយខ្លួនអ្នកនៅពេលក្រោយ
http://sangham.net/index.php?topic=8304.new#new
 

Johann

December 23, 2017, 11:59:01 AM
បាន ណោម
 

Chanroth

December 23, 2017, 11:44:51 AM
 :-*តើព្រះតេជគុណបានទទួលEmailខ្ញុំកណាឬនៅ
 

Johann

December 23, 2017, 11:34:31 AM
ពិតប្រាកដបានបាត់ឬអត់? ហេតុអ្វីបានជាការកាន់និងការចិញ្ចឹម?
 

Johann

December 23, 2017, 11:29:29 AM
ប្រាកដ? ហើយវាយូរអង្វែង? ហើយ​ឥឡូវនេះ? មើលដោយអត់ធ្មត់!
 

Chanroth

December 23, 2017, 07:56:49 AM
អកុសល​បានកើតឡើងចំពោះខ្ញុំហើយ
 

Johann

December 22, 2017, 01:46:31 PM
Sadhu! Nyom Chanroth.
Mudita!
 

Chanroth

December 22, 2017, 03:01:50 AM
ខ្ញុំបាននាំ marvel មកដល់កំពង់ស្ពឺហើយ :-*
 

Chanroth

December 22, 2017, 02:59:59 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

December 18, 2017, 01:16:46 PM
Wird wohl schon sehr Weihnachtsstreß sein, oder Guest?
 

Johann

December 01, 2017, 11:19:47 AM
ចូលបន្ទប់ ព្រះត្រៃបិដកភាសាខ្មែរ . ផ្នែកខាងឆ្វេងមាន
 

Chanroth

December 01, 2017, 05:31:53 AM
ខ្ញុំកណារកមិនឃើញ កន្លែងមហាវគ្គទេសូមជួយប្រាប់កណាផង :-*
 

Chanroth

December 01, 2017, 05:29:34 AM
 :-* :-* :-* ខ្ញុំកណាសូមអគុណ
 

Johann

November 30, 2017, 10:49:09 AM
ពាក្យ "ញោម "។ ឣត្ថន័យ (អថន័យ!) មិនពិតប្រាកដ សំរាប់ អាត្ម។
 

Johann

November 30, 2017, 10:22:55 AM
Ñoma Chanroth.
 

Chanroth

November 30, 2017, 08:44:19 AM
ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំមលោកម្ចាស់ Johann :-* :-* :-*
 

Chanroth

November 30, 2017, 08:40:12 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

November 26, 2017, 04:09:56 PM
Sadhu! Nyom Marcel.
 

Marcel

November 25, 2017, 10:59:50 PM
 :-* einen verdienstvollen uposatha allen  :-*
 

Marcel

November 15, 2017, 10:28:45 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger samana johann  :-*
 

Johann

November 15, 2017, 10:22:52 AM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Sophorn

November 10, 2017, 09:42:54 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
Versucht mit laptop einzuloggen, aber die Updates ziehen sich dahin...
Möge der heutige Uposatha ein Tag der Erkenntnis und des Segens sein.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

October 31, 2017, 05:36:49 AM
 :-*ehrwürdiger samana johann :-* ich hoffe, es geht ihnen gut und die dhamma-praxis schreitet vorran!
 

Johann

October 30, 2017, 01:48:18 AM
Nyom Sophorn.

Show 50 latest
Members
  • Total Members: 293
  • Latest: Aushan
Stats
  • Total Posts: 13457
  • Total Topics: 2601
  • Online Today: 24
  • Online Ever: 90
  • (September 25, 2014, 05:26:29 AM)
Users Online
Users: 1
Guests: 17
Total: 18