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Author Topic: [Q&A] (Is) "Attacking" others with words such as they are weapons (noble?)  (Read 291 times)

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Offline Johann

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Note: This talk on a question outside has come into being in realtion with "Weise tadeln oder nicht? Und was Buddha dazu ermahnte.

[[Q&A] (Is) "Attacking" others with words such as they are weapons (noble?)

Attacking others with words such as they are weapons

down vote
Reference needed. I remember reading a sutta where Buddha mentioned something like a stream enterer would no longer use words to attack others like weapons. I would like to read that sutta in its entirety again. Thanks.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,


(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" - which also could have been changed by third person - that can be found here . )

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.

There are already good answers (as for a part of the question, and not thought about the intent of the question), Nyom Dean, but we need to be careful to take this answers not as a weapon against those who deedly compassioned like to cut away our defilements which are claiming the talked in this Suttas by hard when they are attacted as means to let them survive. Many take the Dhamma as weapon against the three juwels and so was it even in the Buddhas time:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

..."Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: 'Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?' If Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, lord, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut[1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."... read the whole about right Speech

The Buddha, like all other good teacher, are actually very skilled in use there weapon and there are many stories where they "brought" the "opposer" on the floor, "won over him" made his defilements neutal and even dis-manteled him in front of a big group, but not for any gain or to higher themselves, but to bring him in a situation where he can be talked the Dhamma, has no change to escape, or like in cases like in the above sutta, to bring his disciples again on the lain (or speak to them clear that somebody acts wrong).

A good sample in regard of one of the many fights we find in the teachings is: Cula-Saccaka Sutta: The Shorter Discourse to Saccaka

Many of the Suttas in MN may offer to see that it is not the most skillful to lay down the sword of skilled speech but show like in AN 4.100 , that equanimity is not the highes skill:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"There are, Master Gotama, those four kinds of persons found existing in the world. Of those four, the one that seems to me the most excellent and sublime is the one who speaks dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, and the dispraise is accurate, truthful, and timely; and who also speaks praise of someone who deserves praise, and the praise is accurate, truthful, and timely. For what reason? Because what excels, Master Gotama, is knowledge of the proper time to speak in any particular case.

(proper time is when possible and nessesary, sometimes also "just" for others if the certain doer is not capable to take.)

So to give the answer, "Does a stream-enter still uses the weapon of speech", the last Sutta and the samples of Buddha, his disciples, till good teachers of today, will show: "Yes (if wishing) he/she will use the weapon of even strong speech (yet still not with word of fools an outcasts), but not for gain, not to harm and simply out of compassion, less are able to receive.", and if a stream enter would have use it in affect in a wrong way (with akusala mind), maybe as defense (never for intended gain!), as a break of good conduct, he would suddenly confess his wrong doing. So it might aslo happen that a Noble One uses not nice word wrongly.

It's good to do not just pick up certain things from the teachings and use it as weapon. Most Dhamma-Dealer (those who make a livelihood in teaching, or gain, claim and sometimes even provide no defilement-cutting of speech, "peaceful, not opposing speech, ever lovely speech", because the costumers and fans like that, or better their defilements and so they are able to make more gain while simply slander and harm the Dhamma and lead people to fools. Why? Because what counts is the truth and not artifacted peace for nobodies benefit.

Take care to do not use this weapon Dhamma to kill youself off. That goes quick if grasping the head of the snake, walk a way of demand peace and metta (yet on fight and aversive your self), and if not willing to put oneself under good authority, its hard to get the right way.

Hope that this - surely at first - unpleasant answer reaches the worriors and warriors at the right time before theiy cut them off with an haft and incomplete weapon and reason to fight.

Many think "Oh I Won." Having make a visible strike. But the cut of the other war's so sharp that they still do not realice that the head has been seperated already and it's just a matter of time that he will fall down."

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

What do you think? Is this a sample of a Monk you harms you? Heavily harmed your defilements? And/Or sharp words to stay on track and to keep you from serious wrongdoing? Deeply compassioned with some good wisdom, or the act of a fool? Think good and wise about it and its up to the wisdom of the receiver if a gift is taken or rejected. Meaning at least, only a Noble One would recognice another with secure. Just one who had seen will know if a reminder is right. Other need to think, test, observe and bring it to have seen by my self fist or have deep faith.


This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Today at 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.


Today at 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.


Today at 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.


Today at 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.


Today at 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".


Today at 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_


Today at 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori


Today at 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_


Today at 12:01:09 AM
One leading to peaks pointing downward so that aging, sickness and death can be seen, know him/her as a sage, a giver of release.


March 18, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
One leading people to papanca, promoting rejoicing in objectification as the heart wood, increases to fields of corpse in the world.


March 18, 2018, 12:03:14 AM
Good night _/\_


March 17, 2018, 11:59:14 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_


March 17, 2018, 11:51:37 PM


March 16, 2018, 01:19:17 AM


March 15, 2018, 09:53:07 PM
 :-* ich wünschen allen einen verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*


March 14, 2018, 11:19:11 PM
Sounds like a good idea to rest. I will be taking a break from the internet for a while i feel detached a lot from the worldly feminisms and all. It is wonderful not to be lusting, walking the streets with lowered gaze, delighting in meditation... I fear it compromises me to even think about the pol


March 14, 2018, 11:10:27 PM


March 14, 2018, 10:58:38 PM
Marcel, Morits, Upasaka X, it's time to break up this auspicious coming in touch now also for my person. Observe, remember, how you have been yesterday an now and guess of what will be tomorrow probably... maybe just not sure.


March 14, 2018, 10:06:46 PM
Sadhu, _/\_

may Bhante have a peaceful day.

Chom reap sour.


March 14, 2018, 09:58:42 PM
 :-* :-* :-*


March 14, 2018, 09:55:00 PM
O yes... will be a long day, this yesterday, but possible a remorseless.


March 14, 2018, 09:46:45 PM
Vandami Bhante,
good evening (morning in Cambodia?).



March 14, 2018, 03:03:38 AM
Wie war es gestern? Wie geht es heute?

How was it yesterday? How are you today?


March 06, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
Nyom Jens.


March 05, 2018, 02:25:22 PM
 :-* erhwürdiger bhante johann  :-*


March 05, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
Nyom Marcel


March 01, 2018, 12:52:02 AM
Sadhu, eine des Magha-puja allen jenen die sie heute Begehen.


February 28, 2018, 09:48:58 PM
 :-* allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha tag :-*


February 24, 2018, 02:37:41 AM


February 24, 2018, 01:31:25 AM


February 24, 2018, 12:50:00 AM
Es ist sehr selten, ungewöhnlich und erfreulich, zur Mitfreude anregend, junge Menschen Kloster aufsuchend zu sehen.


February 23, 2018, 02:56:54 PM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_


February 23, 2018, 04:04:45 AM


February 23, 2018, 02:16:16 AM
Nyom Danilo.
(Atma will leave for a while for his almsround.)


February 22, 2018, 10:08:41 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja ich ahb die khmer tastatur installiert! ich werde in den nächsten tagen text teilen und berichten!  :-*


February 22, 2018, 12:34:06 PM
Hat Nyom Marcel schon eine Khmer Tastatur installiert?


February 22, 2018, 12:32:21 PM
So ist das. Wenn Nahrung aufgebraucht, dann ist da für eine Weile Ende, und Wiedergeboren, es wieder brennen wird. Zum endgültigen legen des Feuers sind wir hier, oder? Pfau ruft, Gecko balzt, alles in Ordnung, oder?


February 22, 2018, 12:16:35 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, letzte nacht davon geträumt, dass es beim ashram brennt!!
ich hoffe, das feuer hat sich gelegt  :-*


February 22, 2018, 11:43:37 AM
Nyom Marcel.


February 22, 2018, 09:08:57 AM


February 22, 2018, 08:49:51 AM
Möge Regen kommen und alle beschützt werden


February 22, 2018, 01:59:08 AM


February 22, 2018, 01:04:19 AM
ich  wünsche einen verdienstvollen uposatha!! all jende für morgen auch einen hervorragenden uposatha!!!
 :-* :-* :-*


February 19, 2018, 06:00:04 PM
Much joy and releasing touches here, Nyom Chris, my person will leave for today, befor it becomes tomorrow, and rest a little.


February 14, 2018, 03:57:33 PM
Sadhu, auch jenen, die ihn morgen, auch Chinesisches Neujahrsfest, begehen, einhalten.


February 14, 2018, 01:37:51 PM
einen verdienstvollen uposatha allen!!!


February 10, 2018, 12:31:09 PM
Sadhu! Mag er fruchtvoll verlaufen sein. Gerade wieder Möglichkeit erhalten, in dieser Welt hier beizutragen.


February 08, 2018, 12:46:43 PM
 :-* :-* :-* ich wünsche allen einen verdienstvollen uposatha  :-* :-* :-*


February 05, 2018, 02:19:14 PM

 :-* :-* :-* sadhu,sadhu,sadhu

 :-* :-* :-*


February 02, 2018, 12:38:06 PM
Meinereiner ist so schnell ie noch nie genesen. Die Symptome des Befalls nur 2 Tage, und die üblichen 5 Tage um das Medikament zu überstehen. Atma ist gerade wohl auf und auch das ist wie für alle nicht sicher. Nutze den Tag heißt vorallem über Alter, Krankheit und Tod, wie Alternative z

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