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2020 Jan 24 08:29:47
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2020 Jan 24 08:28:40
Cheav Villa: But could not help only giving drinking water. Bhante told his lost in this area 3days ago then he walr

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2020 Jan 24 08:22:10
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante this morning aroung 7.30 kana son arrived near Psar Tram kna on national road number3

2020 Jan 24 08:20:39
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2020 Jan 23 21:53:22
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2020 Jan 23 21:25:30
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2020 Jan 23 11:48:02
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2020 Jan 22 13:30:29
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2020 Jan 22 09:39:03
Danilo: did Bhante's health get better?

2020 Jan 22 09:37:11
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2020 Jan 21 19:20:53
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2020 Jan 21 19:01:10
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2020 Jan 21 13:09:02
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2020 Jan 20 19:30:27
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2020 Jan 17 18:37:01
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2020 Jan 17 13:39:36
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2020 Jan 17 13:39:19
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2020 Jan 17 10:29:19
Johann: "so, now I go up and clear the area a little, make some merits, and I will not share my merits, with anybody..."  ^-^

2020 Jan 17 08:49:11
Chanroth: ធ្វើអាស្រមហើយចេញពីរសេចក្ដីល្អ ធ្វើអ្វីដើម្បីខ្លួល្អជាង

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2020 Jan 17 08:33:16
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2020 Jan 17 06:45:45
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2020 Jan 16 23:01:31
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2020 Jan 12 22:22:36
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2020 Jan 12 21:34:30
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2020 Jan 12 21:31:02
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Author Topic: Definitions of alajji and lajji bhikkhus (assossiate knowingly with offenders)  (Read 1538 times)

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Offline Johann

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Definitions of alajji and lajji bhikkhus

Dear all,
after a discussion with one of the most strict and stern teachers of vinaya I have met so far I would like to request some help in form of pointing out some definitions and giving some explanations. On the basis of a passage which he read in Thai (it was translated for me) he maintained that it is an offense for a bhikkhu to simply stay with unconscientious (on the word alajji the text was based upon) bhikkhus within the same monastery boundaries, however far-reaching the circumference might be. He argued that any bhikkhu who has fallen into any small offense, which he does not mend, is considered alajji and ground for an offense for any other bhikkhu who stays with him. Now these questions bother me at the moment regarding this:

Where is his mentioned passage to be found in Paali or English (if at all)?
What are the definitions of lajji and alajji regarding bhikkhus? Do they match the mentioned case or are they generally different?
He also mentioned that it is the responsibility of conscientious bhikkhus to point out the offenses of his co-resident bhikkhus, if he neglects it he would incur an offense himself. I see that there is Paacittiya 64 which stipulates so but argued that in the no-offense clause we find the following exemptions:

There is no offence if he does not tell, thinking: “There will come to be quarrel or dispute or strife or contention for the Order”; if he does not tell, thinking: “There will come to be a schism in the Order or dissension in the Order”; if he does not tell, thinking: “This one, harsh, rough, will be an obstacle to life or to the Brahma-life”; if he does not tell, not seeing other suitable monks; if he does not tell (though) not desiring to hide (him); if he does not tell, thinking: “It will be evident from his own action”; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer.


So, to my mind, if a bhikkhu doesn’t say something because he doesn’t wish the whole day finding faults and talking to other monks (in Pa Auk Mawlamyine, just to give a random example, this would be a full-time job with so many hundreds of monks) that would be no offense because he doesn’t want to hide, is that also your understanding? He said there is somewhere another passage which says one has to confront issues regardlessly but he could not find it? Are you aware of any?

Thank you so much for the assistance!
Mettaa

Yes, Venerable Sir. Blessed if meeting such teacher.

But it's neither correct to place such simply in a group, nor does it make sense to ask those full of offenses.

So it's good to clean that and seek for good places to dwell to get not to much infected. Or is it thought that admitting offenses to those having fallen into the same is a means?

It would be good if the Venerables, having fallen into this offens, make amends.

And, telling lay people about an offense of another Bhikkhu is also an offense... "in Pa Auk Mawlamyine, just to give a random example, this would be a full-time job with so many hundreds of monks" ... if not given to do by the Sangha.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 09:43:01 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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To try to give here a possible graspable solution as well:

Deriving from the intentional aspect and a pattern maybe best visible in The Sets of Fifteen Area on Uposatha .

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless comunity, but does not recognize them as such, dwells and performes the Uposatha, in such a case there might be no transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless community, not proven yet he has doubt, dwells and performes the Uposatha nevertheless without claryfication: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless community, not proven yet he has fear, dwells and performes the Uposatha nevertheless without clarifycation: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless community, knowingly he dwells and performes the Uposatha nevertheless: in such a case there might be a transgression of strong wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a careful community, not proven yet he has doubt, does not dwell and performes the Uposatha with them, without claryfication: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a careful community, not proven yet he has fear, does not dwell and performes the Uposatha with them, without claryfication: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a careful community, knowingly, intending torward splitt or out of interest to hide his ways, he does not dwell and performes the Uposatha with them: in such a case there might be a transgression of strong wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.


There is no duty in regard of investigation if there is no reason for one. In cases where doubt or fear arises, seeking clarification is required to be free of mental burdens and free of faults. In cases where one acts clearly (deliberated) against ones knowledge in relation of what is proper, such should be seen as strong wrongdoing. There might be cases where the kammic impact out of current lack of bad conscious, is not assumeable. In those cases it is of cause difficult and depents on possible realisation or trust in supportive other helpers pointing out such. If fully relaying here on them, one might be back to the first case here or the "luckily" perfect one:

There is the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a carefull community, he dwells there without investigations, with no reasons for doubt or fear, and performs the Uposatha with them: in such a case there might be not transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.


And the perfect, in all aspects, one, the knowingly:

There is the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a carefull community, he dwells there having investigated it, with no reasons for doubt or fear, and performs the Uposatha with them: in such a case there is doubtless no transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.


If wrong investigated, it runs back to the first case, which has no transgression either.

My person hopes that this quick, merely "self-produced" investigation here might be useful to possible formulate it in more pleasing words and unity.

There perfect case also refects the reason for allowing to prove and investigate for example in cases of precepter or teacher, cases of certain giving into dependency.

It also shows that it is of course not a general duty to "play police and investigator" but not neglect duties in regard of ones progress and also not certain duties to put into maintaining (possible "cleaning") community, -ties as well as far as possible.

At least the Vinaya, as far as known and formost seen, gives ways to dwell alone if such as an equal or better companion is not traced. Here is actually the only reasonable place for dwelling like a rhinoceros for one not an Arahat yet.

Even such as a pure desciple was encouraged to pay honor and respect for the Uposatha (if dwelling with gained Dhamma alone).

That being the reason why it is not so easy as one might have thought, to find ones proper community and it's out of that reason, because there are many careless and many who do not see their duties in certain cases, that it grows more and more difficult when the Bhikkhus turn into "common" sense thought, commonal-individualism and even let them encourage by Bhikkunis or femal tending flows and "leadership" through improper attachment to carelessness...

Now keeping in mind the rule of not doing confession with those of equal offence, one might understand the urgency here as it grows fast, very fast, that possibilities run out and no more Uposatha can be held with real effective effect and in line within very short time.

Since it might fill the grap even better, here a partical citation of a Sutta, yet not given and shared in line of Dhamma rendered in common pleasant form:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

‘‘Katamañca , bhikkhave, saṅgāhabalaṃ? Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, saṅgahavatthūni – dānaṃ, peyyavajjaṃ, atthacariyā, samānattatā. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, dānānaṃ yadidaṃ dhammadānaṃ. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, peyyavajjānaṃ yadidaṃ atthikassa ohitasotassa punappunaṃ dhammaṃ deseti. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, atthacariyānaṃ yadidaṃ assaddhaṃ saddhāsampadāya samādapeti niveseti patiṭṭhāpeti, dussīlaṃ sīlasampadāya… pe… macchariṃ cāgasampadāya…pe… duppaññaṃ paññāsampadāya samādapeti niveseti patiṭṭhāpeti. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, samānattatānaṃ yadidaṃ sotāpanno sotāpannassa samānatto, sakadāgāmī sakadāgāmissa samānatto, anāgāmī anāgāmissa samānatto, arahā arahato samānatto. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, saṅgāhabalaṃ. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, cattāri balāni.

And again here, might all seems nice on the surface, as long as the general tendency of the leader Sujato Bhikkhu  and his ship, and the assembling community around does not turn around 180 degrees, ones does good to avoid this place, not increasing faith in those without and possible weaken faith in those who had gained.

And it's like always mentioned for the benefit of each individual and Saṅghaṃ , since that should be the driving side-effect gift from proper conduct torward Nibbana, instead for the world, for the world. The gift of freedom an a possibility for later generations in that way.

As it might be that one might be not able to leave ones bounds: if serious willing to use D&D, it would be good if installing certain membership restricted forums like suggested here, as a basis work to do, if the frame even allows such effort, since it might be not clear how the environment has be gained... difficult... your work to do and burdens till faith might arise. Just "hints"... may one decide wisely out of which intend and for with aim they are still made.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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And now, let it be viewed from the next side:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.II.27.13) “Monks, there is the case where the entire Saṅgha in a certain residence has fallen into an offense common to one another.

“They don’t know the name or class of the offense.

“Another monk arrives there: learned, erudite, one who has memorized the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Mātikā. He is wise, experienced, astute, conscientious, scrupulous, desirous of training.

“A certain monk goes to that monk and, on arrival, says to him, ‘Friend, one who does such-and-such: What’s the name of the offense that he falls into?’

(Mv.II.27.14) “(The learned monk) says, ‘Friend, one who does such-and-such falls into the offense of this name. Friend, you have fallen into the offense of this name. Make amends for the offense.’

“He says, ‘Friend, I haven’t fallen into this offense alone. This entire Saṅgha has fallen into this offense.’

“(The learned monk) says, ‘Friend, what does it matter to you, whether another has fallen (into that offense) or not? Please, friend, rise up out of your own offense!’

(Mv.II.27.15) “So the monk, making amends for that offense in line with that (visiting) monk’s advice, goes to the monks and, on arrival, says to them, ‘Friends, they say that one who does such-and-such falls into the offense of this name. Friends, you have fallen into the offense of this name. Make amends for the offense.’

“If those monks make amends for the offense in line with that (visiting) monk’s advice, well and good. If they don’t make amends, then that monk doesn’t have to criticize the monks if he doesn’t want to.”

Does that "that monk doesn’t have to criticize the monks if he doesn’t want to" fit into the first told? If, how and why?

Aside of the allowings given in Mv II 15: Adhammakammapaṭikkosanādi — Protesting a Non-Dhamma Transaction, etc. and its pattern, considering a certain differency betweens allowing as a "polite" urging to do and allowing as a matter of making certain cases handle-able.

There are of cause cases where one might be certain caught and faces danger to get a beat:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Now on that occasion ... well-behaved monks protested when a non-Dhamma transaction was being performed by some Group-of-six monks. The Group-of-six monks became angered and unreasonable, and threatened them with a beating.

So here in this area the certain ways of approaching might be found:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, I allow four or five to protest, two or three to voice an opinion, and one to determine, ‘This is not agreeable to me.’”
Quote from: Mv.II.16.5

And what does one think if need to determine on and on, for a while: might such be of ones gain or shouldn't he not better search for other ways?

Bhikkhus, my person tells you: it's for no use, it's for nobodies benefit, if a Bhikkhu, now not complete, goes out and even founds such as a Sangha in a foreign area, even apart, splitt and without real reverence to his ancestors, it's an act of fools to let wordlings run around and possible use then for defilet interest.

As far as visible for my person, there might be very very less communities in far lands which could be estimated as for any use, either for the individuals nor for others. And this here is not the only reason but given that dwelling uninvited at large, Bhikkhus might have less possibilities but simply seek on and on for compromises out of their attachments to certain impossible objectives.
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Offline Johann

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If one ever has dwelled under lajji people, even if not really knowing Pali, but simply obsere the use and pattern of the word alajji, it's easy to find a connection where the word "allergy" arrives from, since a lajji person would naturally have an allergy breaking out if dwelling with alajji people, not to speak about Bhikkhus in that range.

My person has to "smile" since the Ven. fellow, often used this word has also physical problems and bodily allergy appearances. Yet, on searching outwardly, the plant called "Vassa" ("accidentally...") is natural medicine against pollen allergy.

He uses to chance the places very often, out of inwardly and outwardly burdens but so far not reallt hypothetical, just to be able to maintain the needed welbeing to walk on in progress.

From reasons he progresses not as Bhikkhu, out of respect torward Vinaya.
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 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Since it is "the daily hard beard" of any Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, but also for Samanera/i, my person gives him leave to progress this issue, and trusts that it is of benefit for every Ven. in front and fellows, not to speak for the long existence of the Sangha in this world.

The most "outpointing" rule in this regard is pc-67 (147 for Bhikkhunis)

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Should any bhikkhu knowingly commune, affiliate, or lie down in the same dwelling with a bhikkhu professing such a view who has not acted in compliance with the rule, who has not abandoned that view, it is to be confessed.

This rule reinforces the suggestion made under the preceding rule, that a bhikkhu who refuses to respond to the rebuke imposed by that rule should immediately be suspended. There are three factors for the full offense here.

1) Object: a bhikkhu who has been suspended by a Community transaction and has not yet been restored.

2) Perception: One knows that he has been suspended and has not yet been restored—either from knowing on one’s own, from having been told by the bhikkhu, or from having been told by others.

3) Effort: One communes with him, affiliates with him, or lies down in the same dwelling with him.

Object

According to Cv.I.25-35, a bhikkhu may be suspended for any one of three reasons:

- He refuses to relinquish an evil view, as in the preceding rule;

- he refuses to see an offense (i.e., he admits to having performed an action forbidden by the rules, but refuses to concede that it is an offense); or

- he refuses to make amends for an offense (again, he admits to having performed an action forbidden by the rules, but refuses to undergo the attendant penalty).


Once a bhikkhu has been suspended, it is his duty to change his ways and reject the view or position that led to his suspension, so that he may be restored to normal status.

According to the Vibhaṅga, the factor of object here is fulfilled by a bhikkhu who has been suspended for the first of these three reasons and has yet to be restored. However, because the rules governing the way in which a suspended bhikkhu is to be treated by other bhikkhus are the same for all three cases (see Cv.I.27, Cv.I.31, Cv.I.33), the Commentary argues that a bhikkhu suspended for either of the other two reasons would fulfil this factor as well. The Vibhaṅga’s non-offense clauses add, though, that if the bhikkhu was suspended for holding an evil view and has come to relinquish that view, he does not fulfill this factor even if the Community has yet to restore him to normal status. This allowance would apparently apply to bhikkhus suspended for other reasons as well.

Perception

There is no offense in communing, etc., with a suspended bhikkhu if one perceives him as unsuspended; a dukkaṭa for communing, etc., with an unsuspended bhikkhu if one perceives him as suspended; and a dukkaṭa for communing, etc., with a bhikkhu if one is in doubt as to whether he has been suspended. This last penalty holds regardless of whether he has actually been suspended.

None of the texts mention the matter, but a similar principle would also seem to apply to one’s perception of the transaction whereby the bhikkhu was suspended. Thus, there would be no offense in communing, etc., with him if one perceived a valid transaction as invalid; a dukkaṭa for communing, etc., with him if one perceived an invalid transaction as valid; and a dukkaṭa for communing, etc., with him if one was in doubt as to the transaction’s validity, regardless of whether it was actually valid or not.

Effort

Effort here covers any one of three sorts of action:

1) One communes with the bhikkhu. Communion takes one of two forms: sharing material objects, i.e., giving material objects to the bhikkhu or receiving them from him; or sharing Dhamma, i.e., reciting Dhamma for him or getting him to recite Dhamma. The penalties for sharing Dhamma are, if one recites line-by-line or gets the other to recite line-by-line, a pācittiya for each line; if syllable-by-syllable, a pācittiya for each syllable.

2) One affiliates with the bhikkhu, i.e., one participates in a transaction of the Community along with him. An example would be sitting in the same assembly with him to listen to the Pāṭimokkha.

3) One lies down in the same dwelling with him. “Same dwelling” here, unlike Pc 5 & 6, means one with the same roof. Thus, as the K/Commentary notes, if one is lying under the same roof with the bhikkhu, one falls under this factor even if one is lying in a room that is not connected by any entrance with the one he is lying in. And, we might add, one falls under this factor regardless of whether the dwelling is walled or not. Whether one lies down first, the suspended bhikkhu lies down first, or both lie down at the same time, is not an issue here. As under Pc 5, if both parties get up and then lie down again, one incurs another pācittiya.

These three actions touch on only a few of the observances a suspended bhikkhu must follow, but they are the only ones that entail a pācittiya for a regular bhikkhu who has dealings with him while he is suspended. For further details, see Cv.I.25-35 and BMC2, Chapter 20.

Non-offenses

There is no offense in communing, affiliating, or lying down in the same dwelling with another bhikkhu if one knows that—

he has not been suspended;
he was suspended but has been restored; or
he has abandoned the evil view that led to his suspension.


The Vibhaṅga states explicitly that the first of these three exemptions holds regardless of whether one’s perception is correct, and the same principle would seem to apply to the remaining two as well.

Summary: Communing, affiliating, or lying down under the same roof with a bhikkhu who has been suspended and not been restored—knowing that such is the case—is a pācittiya offense.

Yet, there is often the case that a whole Sangha has actually fallen into transgression, does not put efforts into it to confess and relinquish such, in most cases propably seen as "simply" other affliction. In such cases, the whole territory might be seen as "dwelling".

Also here, ones "innocent assuming" without reasons of doubt, may not be of hindrence. In regarding of time to prove, which is actually required, time span as if looking for if one may function as Nissaya, might be proper. If the might be a hindrence to leave, such as sickness for example, there is no offense.

How ever, in such cases where it can not be avoided to make certain use, its good to stay very remote to others at this place, like a guest in a household, sometime even redard it as if dwelling under householders.

In such way, also places, if given from those using it, may be used for better or as a stop on the way.

As from personal experiances, and as seen in many others behaviour, it's neither of benefit for a certain group or a single contemplative, nor toward the gift given by faith toward the Savaka Sangha, to totally avoid it, aside of the matter that any travel, even in SEAsians enviroment of monasteries near each other, would be possible.

One should not forget that gifts as well as receiving, if even only one side has a state or tendency of integrity (e.g. for Bhikkhus: is formal pure) may purify the giving/receiving. Yet of course it's not easy to decide right with such a thought, till certain stage in the training or if beyond. So till the time one is beyound training, it's propably good and also understanable if certain extreme, to dwell just there of what the elders of ones affliction might approve and stay very remote, even like if visiting householders, geting dwelling from them.

Since most monasteries are actually possessed by householders, in such cases, if such is observed, it's good to do not dwell with formost the householders invitation to stay, or their allowance, and in such cases, dwelling with dangers is not required, as if been given another room in a guesthouse, it is no dwelling together.

From experiance, there are cases like that, which may allow also little longer stay, as for the most respect toward those "walking right" is given at large and bad acting by dwelling groups of monks, very seldom (at leat here, where most are aware of their situation but do not find ways or effort to solve it).

Probably best definition of alajji:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Be careful of the proper procedure being intent on what
was done with skill by him of discernment,
Of what was well spoken in conformity with the rules of
training, not destroying a bourn in a future state.
[165] Ignorant as to subject, falling away, offence, pro￾venance, kind,
He does not know the earlier and the later (speech) nor
likewise what was and was not done.
And he is ignorant too as to formal act and legal question
and decidings, Impassioned, corrupted and astray, he proceeds from fear,
from confusion,  And he is not skilled as to layings down and is not versed in pacifying,
One who has obtained a faction, conscienceless, (of) dark
deed, disrespectful :
A monk such as this is called one who should not be shown
deference.
Knowledgeable as to subject, falling away, offence,
provenance, kind,
He comprehends the earlier and the later (speech) and
likewise what was and was not done, I
And he is knowledgeable as to formal act and legal
question and decidings,
Unimpassioned, uncorrupt, not astray, he proceeds not
from fear, from confusion,
And he is skilled as to layings down and is knowledgeable
as to pacifying,
One who has obtained a faction, conscientious, (of) bright
deed, respectful:
A monk such as this is called one who should be shown
deference.
Quote from: PTS, Horner Pr 12.1.1

May it be of use.  *sgift*
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