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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] (Is) "Attacking" others with words such as they are weapons (noble?)  (Read 412 times)

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Offline Johann

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Note: This talk on a question outside has come into being in realtion with "Weise tadeln oder nicht? Und was Buddha dazu ermahnte.

[[Q&A] (Is) "Attacking" others with words such as they are weapons (noble?)

Attacking others with words such as they are weapons


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Reference needed. I remember reading a sutta where Buddha mentioned something like a stream enterer would no longer use words to attack others like weapons. I would like to read that sutta in its entirety again. Thanks.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" - which also could have been changed by third person - that can be found here . )


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.



There are already good answers (as for a part of the question, and not thought about the intent of the question), Nyom Dean, but we need to be careful to take this answers not as a weapon against those who deedly compassioned like to cut away our defilements which are claiming the talked in this Suttas by hard when they are attacted as means to let them survive. Many take the Dhamma as weapon against the three juwels and so was it even in the Buddhas time:
 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa


..."Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: 'Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?' If Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, lord, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut[1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."... read the whole about right Speech

The Buddha, like all other good teacher, are actually very skilled in use there weapon and there are many stories where they "brought" the "opposer" on the floor, "won over him" made his defilements neutal and even dis-manteled him in front of a big group, but not for any gain or to higher themselves, but to bring him in a situation where he can be talked the Dhamma, has no change to escape, or like in cases like in the above sutta, to bring his disciples again on the lain (or speak to them clear that somebody acts wrong).

A good sample in regard of one of the many fights we find in the teachings is: Cula-Saccaka Sutta: The Shorter Discourse to Saccaka

Many of the Suttas in MN may offer to see that it is not the most skillful to lay down the sword of skilled speech but show like in AN 4.100 , that equanimity is not the highes skill:
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -


"There are, Master Gotama, those four kinds of persons found existing in the world. Of those four, the one that seems to me the most excellent and sublime is the one who speaks dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, and the dispraise is accurate, truthful, and timely; and who also speaks praise of someone who deserves praise, and the praise is accurate, truthful, and timely. For what reason? Because what excels, Master Gotama, is knowledge of the proper time to speak in any particular case.

(proper time is when possible and nessesary, sometimes also "just" for others if the certain doer is not capable to take.)

So to give the answer, "Does a stream-enter still uses the weapon of speech", the last Sutta and the samples of Buddha, his disciples, till good teachers of today, will show: "Yes (if wishing) he/she will use the weapon of even strong speech (yet still not with word of fools an outcasts), but not for gain, not to harm and simply out of compassion, less are able to receive.", and if a stream enter would have use it in affect in a wrong way (with akusala mind), maybe as defense (never for intended gain!), as a break of good conduct, he would suddenly confess his wrong doing. So it might aslo happen that a Noble One uses not nice word wrongly.

It's good to do not just pick up certain things from the teachings and use it as weapon. Most Dhamma-Dealer (those who make a livelihood in teaching, or gain, claim and sometimes even provide no defilement-cutting of speech, "peaceful, not opposing speech, ever lovely speech", because the costumers and fans like that, or better their defilements and so they are able to make more gain while simply slander and harm the Dhamma and lead people to fools. Why? Because what counts is the truth and not artifacted peace for nobodies benefit.

Take care to do not use this weapon Dhamma to kill youself off. That goes quick if grasping the head of the snake, walk a way of demand peace and metta (yet on fight and aversive your self), and if not willing to put oneself under good authority, its hard to get the right way.

Hope that this - surely at first - unpleasant answer reaches the worriors and warriors at the right time before theiy cut them off with an haft and incomplete weapon and reason to fight.

Many think "Oh I Won." Having make a visible strike. But the cut of the other war's so sharp that they still do not realice that the head has been seperated already and it's just a matter of time that he will fall down."
 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -


[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

What do you think? Is this a sample of a Monk you harms you? Heavily harmed your defilements? And/Or sharp words to stay on track and to keep you from serious wrongdoing? Deeply compassioned with some good wisdom, or the act of a fool? Think good and wise about it and its up to the wisdom of the receiver if a gift is taken or rejected. Meaning at least, only a Noble One would recognice another with secure. Just one who had seen will know if a reminder is right. Other need to think, test, observe and bring it to have seen by my self fist or have deep faith.


Anumodana!

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante
 :-*  :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
 :)  ;) Moritz, gut einfühlbar. In Österreich lebte der Körper nach der asiatischen Uhr, hier in N nach der österreichischen Uhr.
Nicht zeitgerecht der Natur entsprechend zu leben, überfordert den Körper.  
Beste Grüße aus Kathmandu!  :-*
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 11:06:18 AM
Sadhu, und vergesse Nyom sich nicht.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
Es wird spät in Hawaii. Einen friedlichen Tag allen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:40:41 AM
Ja, gestern Vormittag bis Nachmittag. Ich lebe wohl gerade ungefähr im Einklang mit der Zeitzone von Hawaii.
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 07:36:45 AM
Nyom Moritz. Hat er auch ausreichend Schlaf genommen?
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:30:08 AM
Good day, Bhante _/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 03:20:13 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 03:07:40 AM
Ach ja, hab nun geändert. Vielleicht klappt's nun beim nächsten probieren @Roman
_/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 02:21:56 AM
Vielleicht gut wenn Meister Moritz Nyom Roman die 5 Mühsam-Beitagszahl hineinzaubert, da dann spamschutz wegfällt und er zu den unöffentlichen Foren Zugang hat.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:13:06 PM
Hier eine kurze Bild-Erklärung zum Beantworten von Themen und Beiträgen.
Wenn noch Probleme, gern weiter hier nachfragen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Gut zu hören, dass der Bruder sich mitfreut. Sadhu! :)
Möge alles problemlos im Eintritt in das neue Leben für ihn laufen. _/\_

Roman

July 12, 2018, 09:01:41 PM
Danke moritz

Ich werde es ausprobieren!!

Aufjedenfall war es eine sehr erfreuliche Nachricht! ! Ich bin sehr stolz auf marcel!! Mein herz geht auf!! Wunderschön!
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:58:37 PM
(Also auch auf der neuen Seite, wo dann das Text-Eingabefeld ist: Das Text-Eingabefeld ist nicht gleich im Fokus, sondern man muss erst ein gutes Stück nach unten scrollen, um es zu finden.)
Nicht sicher gerade, wie es auf Smartphone aussieht, ob da viel anders ist.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Wenn man ganz unten ans Ende der letzten Nachricht scrollt, sollte da ein Button "Reply" oder "Antworten" sein. (Je nach eingestellter Sprache vielleicht.) Da drauf klicken. Dann sollte auf der nächsten Seite eine Texteingabe-Ansicht erscheinen. Zu der muss man aber erst ein Stück runter scrollen.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Oh, die Nachricht wurde abgeschnitten. Hier in der Shoutbox sind nur ein paar hundert Zeichen möglich.
Ja, das Forum ist etwas unübersichtlich am Anfang. Moment, ich versuche mal, zu erklären. :)

Roman

July 12, 2018, 08:41:24 PM
Hallo

Ich lese sehr viel hier!! Es ist sehr interessant!! Die Menge an Infos! ! Sehr toll!!..Ich habe versucht auf den Beitrag zu reagieren der die Entwicklung von nyom marcel beschreibt..glaube von Johann verfasst. Jedoch weiß ich noch nicht genau wie dieses funktioniert.
Ich habe die Nachric
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:34:57 PM
Hallo Roman, Binocular/Visitor _/\_
 

Johann

July 12, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 10:08:30 PM
Ohh... es ist woeder mal 3 geworden. Atma erlaubt sich, sich zurückzuziehen und sich etwas um die Malaria zu kümmern.
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
Sadhu zu Ersten Ausruf/ Aufruf. Sadhu zum zweiten, zu Vorbildhaftigkeit, und mag er sich stets entlassen fühlen
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 07:00:07 PM
Chom reap leah, Bhante _/\_
Nun wirklich weg hier für heute, Arbeit ruft.
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 05:43:01 PM
Allen gute Besinnung auf was besinnenswert ([1] | [2] ) ist wünschend _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 08, 2018, 09:33:25 AM
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 09:28:47 AM
Nyom Sophorn
 

Danilo

July 08, 2018, 12:20:06 AM
Bhante and Moritz _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 12:16:49 AM
Moritz, Danilo
 

Moritz

July 08, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
Good evening, morning or whatever the time here and there. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 04:20:58 PM
Meister Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:57:42 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 02:36:37 PM
  :-* Hallo Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
Hallo, Marcel, Sophorn. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 05:18:33 AM
Nyom Sophorn, Nachricht von Bhante Indannano: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1554.msg15198.html#msg15198
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 03:51:28 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:22:38 AM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:08:22 AM
Geruhsame Nacht, Nyom
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:48:32 AM
Gute Nacht. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:47:01 AM
Hallo Mirco! :)
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:46:48 AM
Sadhu. Möge Bhante lange gesund bleiben. _/\_
 

Johann

July 01, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
Sadhu

Angenehmen, klärenden Tag. Auch allen anderen.

Atmas Gesundheit, trotz der durch stetes Regnen zahlreicher Mitesser, ist soweit ok und wer weis wie morgen. Bisher schon länger malariaanfallverschont.

 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
(Bin erst mal kurz weg vom Computer.
Chom reap leah. _/\_)
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:41:41 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante. _/\_

Wie steht es um Ihre Gesundheit und Malaria?

_/\_
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 03:48:17 AM
Hallo Sophorn!
Gruß auch zurück nach Österreich :) _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 01, 2018, 03:40:58 AM
Freut mich, dass es gut geht.

Beste Grüsse nach Asien und Resteuropa!  :-*
 

Marcel

June 30, 2018, 12:23:03 AM
Werte sophorn,
Mir geht es gut!  :-*
 

Sophorn

June 29, 2018, 08:23:49 PM
Werter Marcel,
Wie geht's?
 :-*
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:10:49 AM
  :'(- irrtümlich gesendet!!
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:08:00 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-* :'(
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:07:58 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-*

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