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Talkbox

2019 Apr 25 07:32:44
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻អរព្រះគុណ ព្រះអង្គ

2019 Apr 25 04:42:51
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom. (May well-being come to fullfillment.)

2019 Apr 25 02:30:46
Ieng Puthy: តេីលោកRoman មានបំណងទៅវត្តអកយំនៅថ្ងៃណាដែរ?ព្រះអង្គ🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Apr 25 02:29:26
Ieng Puthy: ករុណានិង បងសុភឿន នឹងជូនលោកRoman ទៅវត្តអកយំបាន

2019 Apr 25 02:28:00
Ieng Puthy: ករុណានិង បង សុភឿន នឹងជួយស

2019 Apr 25 02:27:00
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុព្រះអង្គ Vandami Bhante

2019 Apr 24 17:56:05
Cheav Villa: កូណា សរសេរពួកយើង​ គឺជំនួសមុខ​ បងពុទ្ធីនិងសុភឿន  _/\_

2019 Apr 24 17:54:42
Cheav Villa: បង​ពុទ្ធី បានអោយកូណាសួរអំពីពេលវេលា​ ដែលលោកRoman នឹងទៅអកយំ _/\_

2019 Apr 24 17:52:47
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_  កូណាបាន ប្រាប់បងពុទ្ធី និង​សុ​ភឿន ប្រសិនបើគាត់អាចជួយបាន ព្រោះកូណាមិនមានសេរីភាពច្រើនដូចពួកគាត់

2019 Apr 24 17:01:34
Johann: Modern (ab)art of conversation and old patient culture...  :) great training only serious take on and rushing hide on messanger, fb, or in the ocean of Maras internet. Mudita.  :)

2019 Apr 23 13:36:18
Cheav Villa: Kana :D _/\_

2019 Apr 23 13:24:57
Johann: ? But light is always good. Oh, maybe the honey bee candles...: Atma told Upasika Sophorn to take them with her to share, since the mices would eat them away here. Mudita

2019 Apr 23 12:52:51
Cheav Villa: Kana Preah Ang  _/\_ Vithou told kana that Bhante sending us a pair of candles all through Bang Sophorn  :D _/\_

2019 Apr 23 12:06:15
Johann: Nyom Villa. Atma does not understand all circumstances but much mudita and appreciantion with sharing merits with each other, taking each other along good.

2019 Apr 23 11:04:23
Cheav Villa: កូណា ទើបបានដំណឹងពី Vithou ថាព្រះអង្គផ្ញើទានមួយគូមក តាមរយៈ​បងសុភ័ណ​ ខ្ញុំកូណា​សូម​អរព្រះគុណ​  :) _/\_

2019 Apr 23 11:02:19
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 23 02:03:31
Johann: Nyom. (smilies of the common places are not visible here for many)

2019 Apr 22 17:36:16
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុ Vandami Bhante

2019 Apr 22 15:54:07
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz  _/\_

2019 Apr 22 15:03:17
Moritz: _/\_ Bong Villa

2019 Apr 20 07:30:33
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 20 05:25:34
Moritz: _/\_ bong Vithou

2019 Apr 19 06:30:18
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Apr 19 06:25:58
Moritz: _/\_ bong Villa

2019 Apr 19 06:25:48
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 19 02:23:14
Cheav Villa:  សាធុ​ៗ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 19 01:42:18
Johann: Another fullmoon, another chance. It's not sure that breaking apart will make it the last. May all spend a auspicious Uposatha.

2019 Apr 17 15:33:54
Chanroth:  _/\_ bong Moritz

2019 Apr 17 15:32:22
Chanroth:  _/\_bong villa

2019 Apr 17 15:31:07
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 17 07:11:18
Johann: Bhante

2019 Apr 17 05:05:51
Johann: Bhante  _/\_

2019 Apr 17 02:16:55
Johann: May all bring some merits left into this new year for them!

2019 Apr 12 17:30:17
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 12 14:39:05
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2019 Apr 12 14:27:27
Cheav Villa:  _/\_  Master Moritz

2019 Apr 12 14:26:24
Moritz: _/\_ Bong Villa

2019 Apr 12 14:26:12
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 12 14:09:15
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 12 01:54:32
Johann: A meritful Sila-day and much rightly joy by doing merits.

2019 Apr 09 08:24:39
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Apr 09 08:14:00
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 06 19:12:07
Moritz: Vandami, Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 06 08:32:11
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 06 07:44:05
Johann: _/\_ Bhante Indannano, Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Apr 06 06:51:05
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 05 14:37:22
Khemakumara: Nyom Roman

2019 Apr 05 14:35:22
Johann: Bhante, Meister Roman

2019 Apr 05 14:18:13
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 05 09:58:10
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 Apr 05 09:55:43
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 05 09:53:07
Khemakumara: Nyom Moritz

2019 Apr 05 07:23:13
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 05 05:41:00
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Apr 04 02:43:01
Johann: May all spend a meritful old month over New month birth day this day.

2019 Apr 03 21:09:04
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 03 13:50:42
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 03 13:23:48
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Apr 03 13:07:53
Khemakumara: Tomorrow is new moon uposatha,  take this noble opportunity to come together in khema (peaceful).  It is not common,  that living beings are in contact with Buddha,  Dhamma, Sangha.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 02 15:20:21
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 02 05:09:56
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Apr 02 04:40:57
Moritz: Good morning Bhante and Chanroth _/\_ And good night to me. :)

2019 Apr 01 17:12:00
Moritz: Good evening Bhante. _/\_

2019 Apr 01 15:16:08
Johann: Nyom Chanroth, Nyom Villa (mudita that those wishing to stay in touch are able here)

2019 Apr 01 04:29:01
Johann: One not having overcome sakayaditthi is not capable to judge right and will always be corrupt.

2019 Mar 31 01:02:21
Johann: One would not let go of ones stand/home.

2019 Mar 31 01:00:01
Johann: As long as Saddha does not arise, it's not right view but stuck in "panna".

2019 Mar 30 10:03:35
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Mar 30 08:48:04
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 30 08:28:03
Johann: Samvega, yes, Nyom. If there is no pasada. Cheating is of no help but selfish motivated. Maybe Affirming the Truths of the Heart: The Buddhist Teachings on Samvega  

2019 Mar 30 08:13:03
Kong Sokdina: Vandami Bhante    :D បើចង់ អោយចេះប្រមាណ បើបាន អោយចេះគ្រប់ ជៀរាងការកើតទុក្ខនាំមកនូវសេចក្ដីខកចិត្ត(depressed mood) ។

2019 Mar 29 06:06:43
Johann: Like a path would disappear fastly in the forest, the path for many unseen if nobody steps on it.

2019 Mar 29 06:04:31
Johann: Because Uppekha isn't the highest and nobody would benefit from it.

2019 Mar 29 06:03:18
Johann: And why the even Noble ones and Arahats continue asking, answering, coss-question, giving Anumodana, critic?

2019 Mar 29 00:41:54
Johann: Once knowing good and bad, no more independency of approve of others, thanks, praise for ones sacrifices.

2019 Mar 29 00:40:05
Johann: What ever one does, one does for him/herself. Knowing this it's importand to give praise and approve to ones own skillful deeds, shame and disprove to bad.

2019 Mar 28 08:51:12
Moritz: I am leaving my computer to work without me. May all have a good Uposatha day. _/\_

2019 Mar 28 08:00:48
Moritz: Ja, gut angekommen. Noch nicht ganz umgestellt. :) Bald wieder los zum Taxifahren. _/\_

2019 Mar 28 07:45:55
Johann: Meister Moritz. Gut angekommen und wieder umgestellt?

2019 Mar 28 07:28:51
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 28 00:47:42
Johann: May all spend a meritful Sila-day and be able to recoice with their beauty of having given all being the gift of the Uposatha-Silas.

2019 Mar 26 01:18:56
Cheav Villa:  :D _/\_

2019 Mar 26 01:18:46
Cheav Villa: មិនខុសពីរឿងទៅសុំសៀវភៅសន្ទនានុក្រម នៅវ ត្ត បញ្ញា​ និង..

2019 Mar 26 01:16:15
Cheav Villa: កូណា ជារឿងដែលម្នាក់បានទទួលស្តាប់ និងធ្វើតាមតែមិនបានសំរេច តាមគោលដៅ :D _/\_

2019 Mar 25 15:28:24
Johann: Others, even if pure, is open for critic and bad assumings. Envy, jealously... on each side. So to become not susbected, needs good advices, double hard for woman to act perfect.

2019 Mar 25 15:23:21
Johann: Pappies can give good lessons when they don't fall, but the deeper, the hard training, must come from liberal mommies for daughters and liberal pappies for sons, in the world and for beyond.

2019 Mar 25 15:11:15
Cheav Villa:   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 15:04:40
Johann: Does mommy generally don't actually love her child when not react?

2019 Mar 25 15:03:13
Johann: Mommy, mommy... but I like... ohh, they bite me... I am hungry... when do we go back?... why must we sit here... mommy!

2019 Mar 25 15:00:37
Johann: Which can be changed all the time, with feeding rightly.

2019 Mar 25 14:55:50
Cheav Villa: កូណាសង្ឃឹមថា.​ ជារឿងឧបនិស្ស័យ.​  :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 14:50:25
Johann: ...teaching and mirror.

2019 Mar 25 14:49:40
Johann: When one is stressed or busy, remember how many times one him/herself was so as well. Intention will always has it's effects, sometimes quick, sometimes even sisters, mother and child... Nyom wouldn't have become here, if there would be not long, long bounds. Watch your child. Thats always a great t

2019 Mar 25 14:40:41
Cheav Villa: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 14:39:48
Cheav Villa: ព្រោះកូណាមិនអាចទៅឱរ៉ាល់បានកំឡុងពេលនេះ តែអាចជួបនៅភ្នំពេញបាន តែចេតនាម្ខាងមិនចង់ជួប ទើបមិនអាចជួប

2019 Mar 25 14:38:39
Cheav Villa: កូណាគ្រាន់តែចង់បញ្ជាក់អំពីចេតនា ដែលម្នាក់មាន និងម្នាក់គ្មាន ក្នុងការ​ជួបគ្នា.ជាហេតុមិនបានជួប :D _/\_

2019 Mar 25 14:37:02
Cheav Villa:    _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 13:44:16
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Foot well again?

2019 Mar 25 11:56:36
Johann: Good stories: The Healing of the Bull and Prisoners of Karma .

2019 Mar 25 11:51:20
Johann: Although monks are allowed to explain how to work oneself out, they are not given to liberate "slaves", prisoner, as this would count as thief.

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Author Topic: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?  (Read 1870 times)

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Offline Johann

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How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« on: September 30, 2017, 02:21:34 AM »



How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?

According to the suttas in SN13 , a stream enterer (or stream winner or sotapanna ) only has at most, seven remaining lifetimes, before they are permanently freed from suffering.

On the other hand, takers of the Mahayana Bodhisattva vow , would forego enlightenment for a very long time (apparently aeons), till they complete the full Bodhisattva training (which I presume is the development of paramitas and the attainment of bhumis ).

However, this implies that they need to avoid stream entry, which could cause them to become released from suffering in seven lifetimes at most.

So, how do they avoid stream entry? Do they avoid it by avoiding the practice of insight meditation (vipassana ) perhaps?

My person anwered there as following:

[Note: This is a gift of Dhamma, not meant for commercial purpose or other wordily gaining (possible not good for those desire for becoming a Buddha and not firm in it.]

Usually/practical by avoiding to listening the Dhamma of a Buddha and taking care of not gaining wisdom or right view. So avoiding the three Juwels as good as possible, if still present in the world.

Maybe some food for benefical thought: A Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha?

Here in Cambodia, people who have not really taken refuge into the Juwels, so if speaking about people not explicit Dhammika, are called "Buddh(a)bodhisatt(a)".

Since the root of stream-entry is right view, this has to be avoided, if one wishes to become a Buddha. If such is possible, having been touched by the good Dhamma... who knows...

Of coures it might be, that seven lives as a certain devas lasts as long as a world period. Did not made more researches in this regard.

This might be also useful for those desiring becoming a Buddha: Bodhisatta Path Answers of questions

And a nice Bodhisatta-story: The Spiritual Partner

Sotapanna (stream-enter/wisdom throw hearing) is connected with the four Noble Truth. If, when a person heard the 4NT, understanding them, not mental cognitive defect, can than, later, take on Bodhisatta-vows and avoid stream entry: my person doubts. He/she will gain the path latest with death. So possible a wasted time with a lot of pain, struggle and suffering, if having heard and understood the Dhamma, to try to avoid entry afterwards.

Some say there is a point in the Vipassana-states, where one might have gained some good insight, and where one is able to decide. A hint on it is in the 'Question and Answer' link.

It might be therefore (for a desire of becoming a Buddha), good to take on the vows before hearing the Four Noble Truth and understanding them, e.g. not taking refuge into the current Buddha, his Dhamma, his Sangha.


My person just thought of what Upasaka Dmytro ( Admin ) would have to add or correct.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2018, 05:16:24 AM »
Okasa bhante and all,

I'll give you all some more data on this regard, so that you will be able to analyse.

Ven. Ananda Maitreya had said:
When he was meditating he could attain sankharupekkha vipassana nana in a short time compared to others but couldn't achieve any further development for a long time. So he had reported it to his teacher and the teacher had asked him whether he had any other hopes. After ven. Maitreya had replied "yes, to become a Buddha ", his teacher had said "if it is so, you can't advance any further".

Ven. Ariyadhamma and his teacher ven. Jinavamsa are said to be have the same experience. Ven. Ariyadhamma had said that only a rare person with exceptional energy can attain buddhahood. Once he had asked a question from a criticizer "if everyone refuse buddhahood then who will establish a buddha sasana? who will help others?"

Ven. Nanarama had said many bodhisattas can't achieve the goal and they will have to change the goal to become pacceka buddha or arahant.

Ven. Dhamajiva had said that the people who have kindness over wisdom tend to go in the bodhisatta path and the people who have wisdom over karuna tend to attain nibbana in this very life. He advises both type of people to develop their lacking quality in order to become balanced.

Some criticizers of bodhisatta path say that many people have decided to become bodhisattas because of the 'mana' (superiority complex) or failure to become successful in practice.

Once a leader temple monk criticized bodhisatta path saying it is an ignorant idea, but bhikkhu Nanananda had said that it is not good to shame bodhisattas.

Vandami.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 05:24:06 AM by gus »

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2018, 02:42:18 PM »
A short anecdote:

Once my person left home/household under the gems as a wanderer, a beggar with not any society as refuge, after a day walk, burned feets (it's hard to cross the area around a city where just cars are used to move along till first shadow can be found), he come to a monastery.
It was "accidentally" one of the best "teaching young Bhikkhus monasteries".

The Ven. Abbot just cross-questioned his disciples as my person approached, willing to ask to spend some days to look after the feets and to repair and prepare the robes since they had been in bad conditions.

After having got a place to sit, some water to clean the feets, water, he continued to cross-question his well-versed disciples: "What do you think. Is it samma ditthi or miccha ditthi if one desires to become a Buddha?" They discussed, could not really agree, argued... Then he turned to my person. The answer was clear.

After explaining, after approve, the young monks, understanding it and no more doubt, they asked: "How is it, how can it be possible, that this person, having not nearly learned only a little like use, was able to answer the question (with certain amount of issa)."

He just said: "That's the different between practicing and learning."

Since one has strong desire, attachments toward home, toward world, a Bodhisatta is not able to leave home, having not left home, how could he ever see beyond, how could he ever gain right view and develop right view before he possible meets his last birth, having figured out that no refuge can be found in the many homes, worlds, what ever far or near.

This is why a good father would not advice his children to walk the same long burdenful path, let them make the same mistakes, but show them the direct way to that what he has archived. No Buddha, no Arahat, no good father would ever advice people to walk only a day an insecure and maybe wrong way, would never advice their children to do all to become a father one day, to walk following his many failings and hardships.

It's simply 'mana' or 'maya' (illusion following Mahayanas use of this world) that one desires to become this or that for this or that sake.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2018, 03:24:45 PM »
Going down into the dark, looking for the glas my person left outside, fellow Bhante actually already placed on it's proper place, someone came across to explain the whole issue again with his situation by picture, teaching Dhamma by pictures, to understand:

[img]
user:johann:gallery:archiv2018:20180930_05.jpg
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2018, 11:39:22 PM »
Okasa,

As I remember, the Awakened One has said two things similar to the below.
 
  • "I don't praise the practice of more 'parahita' at the cost of 'attahita'."
  • "I don't praise waiting in 'bhava' at least for a moment."

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 08:05:26 AM »
Does Deva gus likes to explain word and meaning of 1. and. 2.?

Especialy the secound does look like that it needs aditional explaining. If standing alone out of context it's not only condraticion to his own teachings but leads to misunderstanding and extreme. It's that the statement of an accomplished person, and a-sekha? Jhana is a matter of Bhava, developing the path is bhava (developing, producing)... Or is a bhāva (being, stand) and bhava confusion of mine here?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 08:16:27 AM by Johann »
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Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 08:27:25 AM »
Okasa bhante,

Actually I don't remember the relevant suttas. As I remember,

1.The Buddha has discouraged dedicating for the welfare of others at the expense of one's own practice; Or discouraged hindering one's own practice in order to help others.
(in some other sutta: "atta-hita and neva-para-hita person" has been categorized as better than "neva-atta-hita and para-hita" person. )

2.The Buddha don't praise delaying  in samsara (as an non-arahant) at least for an instant. (I think this is an advise to be heedful)

Vandami.

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2018, 09:41:38 AM »
Sadhu!

To provide the certain suttas (parts of vinaya, and topics here) may require some time.

Probably most famous for not so literary understanding of 1. is "The Bamboo acrobat", Sedhaka Sutta, SN 47.19 if remembering right.
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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2018, 07:54:35 PM »
"Bodhisatta" and the "not fearless" Ajahn Mun:

“The Dhamma of these latter-day sages will be a new, modern Dhamma whose attainment requires no troublesome investigations. All that's required to attain magga and phala is a chorus of moaning and groaning, a method suited to an age when people prefer to seek righteous results from unrighteous causes – a pernicious attitude consuming the whole world today. Before long there won't be enough room on the planet to hold all these modern-day sages. I myself have an old-fashioned mentality. I trust what the Lord Buddha taught and dare not take any shortcuts. I am afraid that, as soon as I put a foot forward, I would fall flat on my face – and die there in disgrace. That would be immensely heartbreaking for me.”
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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 12:47:41 AM »
Okasa bhante,
"Bodhisatta" and the "not fearless" Ajahn Mun:

“All that's required to attain magga and phala is a chorus of moaning and groaning, ..”

What does here "chorus of moaning and groaning means? What is it's relationship with modern sages? Is it a criticism of weak effort or something else?

Vandami.

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