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Author Topic: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?  (Read 699 times)

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Offline Johann

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How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« on: September 30, 2017, 02:21:34 AM »



How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?

According to the suttas in SN13 , a stream enterer (or stream winner or sotapanna ) only has at most, seven remaining lifetimes, before they are permanently freed from suffering.

On the other hand, takers of the Mahayana Bodhisattva vow , would forego enlightenment for a very long time (apparently aeons), till they complete the full Bodhisattva training (which I presume is the development of paramitas and the attainment of bhumis ).

However, this implies that they need to avoid stream entry, which could cause them to become released from suffering in seven lifetimes at most.

So, how do they avoid stream entry? Do they avoid it by avoiding the practice of insight meditation (vipassana ) perhaps?

My person anwered there as following:

[Note: This is a gift of Dhamma, not meant for commercial purpose or other wordily gaining (possible not good for those desire for becoming a Buddha and not firm in it.]

Usually/practical by avoiding to listening the Dhamma of a Buddha and taking care of not gaining wisdom or right view. So avoiding the three Juwels as good as possible, if still present in the world.

Maybe some food for benefical thought: A Bodhisttva is a member of the Sangha?

Here in Cambodia, people who have not really taken refuge into the Juwels, so if speaking about people not explicit Dhammika, are called "Buddh(a)bodhisatt(a)".

Since the root of stream-entry is right view, this has to be avoided, if one wishes to become a Buddha. If such is possible, having been touched by the good Dhamma... who knows...

Of coures it might be, that seven lives as a certain devas lasts as long as a world period. Did not made more researches in this regard.

This might be also useful for those desiring becoming a Buddha: Bodhisatta Path Answers of questions

And a nice Bodhisatta-story: The Spiritual Partner

Sotapanna (stream-enter/wisdom throw hearing) is connected with the four Noble Truth. If, when a person heard the 4NT, understanding them, not mental cognitive defect, can than, later, take on Bodhisatta-vows and avoid stream entry: my person doubts. He/she will gain the path latest with death. So possible a wasted time with a lot of pain, struggle and suffering, if having heard and understood the Dhamma, to try to avoid entry afterwards.

Some say there is a point in the Vipassana-states, where one might have gained some good insight, and where one is able to decide. A hint on it is in the 'Question and Answer' link.

It might be therefore (for a desire of becoming a Buddha), good to take on the vows before hearing the Four Noble Truth and understanding them, e.g. not taking refuge into the current Buddha, his Dhamma, his Sangha.


My person just thought of what Upasaka Dmytro ( Admin ) would have to add or correct.
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Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2018, 05:16:24 AM »
Okasa bhante and all,

I'll give you all some more data on this regard, so that you will be able to analyse.

Ven. Ananda Maitreya had said:
When he was meditating he could attain sankharupekkha vipassana nana in a short time compared to others but couldn't achieve any further development for a long time. So he had reported it to his teacher and the teacher had asked him whether he had any other hopes. After ven. Maitreya had replied "yes, to become a Buddha ", his teacher had said "if it is so, you can't advance any further".

Ven. Ariyadhamma and his teacher ven. Jinavamsa are said to be have the same experience. Ven. Ariyadhamma had said that only a rare person with exceptional energy can attain buddhahood. Once he had asked a question from a criticizer "if everyone refuse buddhahood then who will establish a buddha sasana? who will help others?"

Ven. Nanarama had said many bodhisattas can't achieve the goal and they will have to change the goal to become pacceka buddha or arahant.

Ven. Dhamajiva had said that the people who have kindness over wisdom tend to go in the bodhisatta path and the people who have wisdom over karuna tend to attain nibbana in this very life. He advises both type of people to develop their lacking quality in order to become balanced.

Some criticizers of bodhisatta path say that many people have decided to become bodhisattas because of the 'mana' (superiority complex) or failure to become successful in practice.

Once a leader temple monk criticized bodhisatta path saying it is an ignorant idea, but bhikkhu Nanananda had said that it is not good to shame bodhisattas.

Vandami.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 05:24:06 AM by gus »

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2018, 02:42:18 PM »
A short anecdote:

Once my person left home/household under the gems as a wanderer, a beggar with not any society as refuge, after a day walk, burned feets (it's hard to cross the area around a city where just cars are used to move along till first shadow can be found), he come to a monastery.
It was "accidentally" one of the best "teaching young Bhikkhus monasteries".

The Ven. Abbot just cross-questioned his disciples as my person approached, willing to ask to spend some days to look after the feets and to repair and prepare the robes since they had been in bad conditions.

After having got a place to sit, some water to clean the feets, water, he continued to cross-question his well-versed disciples: "What do you think. Is it samma ditthi or miccha ditthi if one desires to become a Buddha?" They discussed, could not really agree, argued... Then he turned to my person. The answer was clear.

After explaining, after approve, the young monks, understanding it and no more doubt, they asked: "How is it, how can it be possible, that this person, having not nearly learned only a little like use, was able to answer the question (with certain amount of issa)."

He just said: "That's the different between practicing and learning."

Since one has strong desire, attachments toward home, toward world, a Bodhisatta is not able to leave home, having not left home, how could he ever see beyond, how could he ever gain right view and develop right view before he possible meets his last birth, having figured out that no refuge can be found in the many homes, worlds, what ever far or near.

This is why a good father would not advice his children to walk the same long burdenful path, let them make the same mistakes, but show them the direct way to that what he has archived. No Buddha, no Arahat, no good father would ever advice people to walk only a day an insecure and maybe wrong way, would never advice their children to do all to become a father one day, to walk following his many failings and hardships.

It's simply 'mana' or 'maya' (illusion following Mahayanas use of this world) that one desires to become this or that for this or that sake.
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Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2018, 03:24:45 PM »
Going down into the dark, looking for the glas my person left outside, fellow Bhante actually already placed on it's proper place, someone came across to explain the whole issue again with his situation by picture, teaching Dhamma by pictures, to understand:

[img]
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2018, 11:39:22 PM »
Okasa,

As I remember, the Awakened One has said two things similar to the below.
 
  • "I don't praise the practice of more 'parahita' at the cost of 'attahita'."
  • "I don't praise waiting in 'bhava' at least for a moment."

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 08:05:26 AM »
Does Deva gus likes to explain word and meaning of 1. and. 2.?

Especialy the secound does look like that it needs aditional explaining. If standing alone out of context it's not only condraticion to his own teachings but leads to misunderstanding and extreme. It's that the statement of an accomplished person, and a-sekha? Jhana is a matter of Bhava, developing the path is bhava (developing, producing)... Or is a bhāva (being, stand) and bhava confusion of mine here?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 08:16:27 AM by Johann »
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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 08:27:25 AM »
Okasa bhante,

Actually I don't remember the relevant suttas. As I remember,

1.The Buddha has discouraged dedicating for the welfare of others at the expense of one's own practice; Or discouraged hindering one's own practice in order to help others.
(in some other sutta: "atta-hita and neva-para-hita person" has been categorized as better than "neva-atta-hita and para-hita" person. )

2.The Buddha don't praise delaying  in samsara (as an non-arahant) at least for an instant. (I think this is an advise to be heedful)

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2018, 09:41:38 AM »
Sadhu!

To provide the certain suttas (parts of vinaya, and topics here) may require some time.

Probably most famous for not so literary understanding of 1. is "The Bamboo acrobat", Sedhaka Sutta, SN 47.19 if remembering right.
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Offline Johann

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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2018, 07:54:35 PM »
"Bodhisatta" and the "not fearless" Ajahn Mun:

“The Dhamma of these latter-day sages will be a new, modern Dhamma whose attainment requires no troublesome investigations. All that's required to attain magga and phala is a chorus of moaning and groaning, a method suited to an age when people prefer to seek righteous results from unrighteous causes – a pernicious attitude consuming the whole world today. Before long there won't be enough room on the planet to hold all these modern-day sages. I myself have an old-fashioned mentality. I trust what the Lord Buddha taught and dare not take any shortcuts. I am afraid that, as soon as I put a foot forward, I would fall flat on my face – and die there in disgrace. That would be immensely heartbreaking for me.”
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Re: How do Bodhisattva vow takers avoid stream entry?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 12:47:41 AM »
Okasa bhante,
"Bodhisatta" and the "not fearless" Ajahn Mun:

“All that's required to attain magga and phala is a chorus of moaning and groaning, ..”

What does here "chorus of moaning and groaning means? What is it's relationship with modern sages? Is it a criticism of weak effort or something else?

Vandami.

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 20, 2018, 02:52:14 AM
Atma leaves for alms round, Nyom Villa.
 

Johann

October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])
 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

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