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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] How accurate is AN 9.20–Velāma Sutta in your opinion? (making merits?)  (Read 265 times)

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Online Johann

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How accurate is AN 9.20 – Velāma Sutta in your opinion?
(Does merits making instead of practicing make sense?
Is there possible success if practicing without making merits?)


Quote from: by Breath, on BSE
How accurate is AN 9.20 – Velāma Sutta in your opinion?

would really like to here how accurate is AN 9.20 – Velāma Sutta is in your opinion

* Is stuff exaggerated in places ?
* If you give all the stuff velama gave wouldn't you get at least a little more than a "whiff of a heart of good will" while doing so - more moments of good will than just one ?
* Im not sure i remember all i want to ask about this sutta so if you have anything to add that is welcomed


Link to the sutta :

http://www.accesstoinsight.eu/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.020.than_en.html[1]
 1. link original to ati, here to get to the German transl. in .eu changed

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" that can be found here .)

Breath, and those interested, those possible worthy of special gifts, capable to take,

assuming that accurate is meant in regard of the followed question that might be rephrased "Does the Buddha say here: Giving does not lead to merits, when saying: 'If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and [in addition to that] if one were to feed one person...'.

Actually this Sutta (or better wrong understandig of it) is in fact for most wester and modern people the reason why they deny that making merits, developing goodness, is needed and so deny the developing of generosity, sila, if even, without goodness cause of letting go for the sake of beyond.

Most western, moder "Buddhist" are actually training in line of th Jains who seek refuge in what is called householder-equanimity by the Buddha, meaning that they develope ignorance in the cloth of equanimity the construct around the actual path of letting go and factually do not give anything but merely amass in this way. Make simply sacrifies to keep the flame of death alive, loka-dana.

See: [Q&A] What happens when your tank is empty, and you’ve got nothing left to give

It's message is also (and with the same cause) that giving without virtue "regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given inattentively, disrespectfully, not with one's own hand, as if throwing it away, with the view that nothing will come of it", or an object of virtue (without reflecting and keeping "buddha, Dhamma, Sangha", un-deluded in mind, has not much value for the path.

Giving so, no good perception of something worthy for gifts (because there is no worthy known or traced), the gift, sacrify is for like-alike, sacrify for like-alike or even lower, leads one there, keeps one there, simply for the sake of keeping the flame of death alive.

Like many (Brahmans, some even for what they think that it leads them to become Buddhas, being Velama, yet not even have wealth to share, to possible differents to Vemala) here. They possible think that they make merits why carring about an "unclean" place, are attached to like-alike and not directing their sacrifies to the three juwels, the Sangha as the unexcelt field of merits. So they nurish just whe world, what ever one nurishes will grow (inwardl and outwardly), and that counts for staring as well.

Doing "merits" in such a way, it is clear that people putting effort into perceptions which are not worthy of special sacrifies, actually just sacrify for their own sake, becoming and selfish purpose.

That is why one should keep right joy in giving in mind, using the three juwels as perception, Nibbana and what leads there, as object of ones deeds, one who seeks for gaining merits, goodness, that leads upwards and beyound. It such is done in an enviroment that does not provide for developing such, has not the purpose for such, is not supported by proper joy, people directed to Nibbana, but simply fot the worlds and becoming sake, to keep the flame of becoming, death alive, its of no fruits of no merits at all:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Householder, regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given inattentively, disrespectfully, not with one's own hand, as if throwing it away, with the view that nothing will come of it: Wherever the result of that gift comes to fruition, one's mind will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid food, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid clothing, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid vehicles, will not incline to the enjoyment of the splendid five strings of sensuality. And one's sons & daughters, slaves, servants, & workers will not listen to one, will not lend ear, will not make their minds attend for the sake of knowledge. Why is that? Because that is the result of inattentive actions."
Quote from: AN 9.20

Is like in MN96:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“Brahmin, it is like a poor miserable man against his wish was told, here good man, you should eat meat and you should not spend money on it. In a likewise manner, without the consent of recluses and Brahmins, have appointed these four services. Brahmin, I do not say all services should be done. I do not say, all services should not be done. When doing those services if there is evil, that service is not good. I say it should not be done. When doing those services, if there is no evil, that service is good. (and vici vera).
Quote from: MN 96, translated by Sister Upalavanna

Like the person who had put Sister Uppalavannas translation with a lot of sacrifies on the web (obove linked), he had possible made it in a manner of no fruits to aspected from it, althought it might come to frutaions. Possible without keeping Silas, respectless, thinking on amasing for ones own sake or what holding as self/real. Doing for reputations, wealth (physical, mental by knowledge), praise, pleasant feeling... or simply out of wrong view, invest his sacrifies for unreal and not to real directed sakes, for the world: Not to tend up-wards, most not even tend as it currently is, up simply wasts his als goodness, merits away.

Many of modern lay or opposing undertakings and practices, and their ways, unguided, self-over-estmating in wealth and possiblities, simple waste old merits an goodness possible earlier attained. So it is with all that meditation stuff and well-ness-buddhism, all simple certain ego or not-ego trips.

Be attentive, pay proper attention and learn to judge more wisely, step by step, with real benefical sacrifies and their targets!

May this sacrify made by me, benefit those able to rejoice with it, lead to highest bliss, path and fruit, and may the Devas inform those who do not have seen or heard yet.

Anumodana!

[Later Addition (on account of an answer here) to understand quality of Dana better:

There are 3 factors:

- The giver (his mindstate, directed to...? free of moha, lobha, dosa, or not) - since Velama was an "ordinary" being, perfection can not be aspected, he also had neither inwardly nor outwardly an access to the tripple gems or the/a Buddha, could possible not even images such.

- The recipient (since at this time there where no Buddha no Sangha and the gifts might not have been given to a Pacceccabuddha, they have been directed to "ordinary" people.)

- The gift (it was clearly outstanding and therefore had it's certain frutation)

The Suttas give direct 6 factors: Dana Sutta: Giving

When one has the wrong perception of a worthy recipient, holding something not really worthy for worthy, thinking this or that wordling is a Noble one, having no perception of those following the Noble One, it is to be assumed that the gifts are given out of right view and so have not much value in direction of Nibbana. People think normal not in spheres of free of fetters but on what ever benefits or wordily aims. Having the tripple Gems possible still present, many are gifted with that unexcelt field of merits and it is merely "sad" if not used.

That is why just a spoon of rice, with the right mindstate to a worthy person excells even the biggest wealth given if this two factors are not perfect. Or just the Veneration torward a Noble is many times higher as doing charity to torward ordinary people day by day, the whole year. See Dhp ]

More on Dana, note that the princip in it counts also for the merits sila, samadhi, can be found with references and discussion here: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 01:02:42 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 07:18:53 PM
Bestes Gelingen und Freude dabei.
 

Moritz

June 17, 2018, 05:19:19 PM
Ich verabschiede mich für heut, muss andere Arbeit tun. Einen schönen Sonntag.
_/\_
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 02:30:10 PM
Mudita
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 02:19:16 PM
 :-* :-* :-* die Übung ist besser als im "alten haus"  Zuversicht, geduld und Respekt über den drei juwelen ist da!!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 02:19:05 PM
 :-* :-* :-* die Übung ist besser als im "alten haus"  Zuversicht, geduld und Respekt über den drei juwelen ist da!!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 02:19:02 PM
 :-* :-* :-* die Übung ist besser als im "alten haus"  Zuversicht, geduld und Respekt über den drei juwelen ist da!!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:53:53 PM
Wie immer recht, Nyom. Wie stets mit der Übung und allem neu und unperfekt?
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:42:40 PM
 :-*  :-* :-* anumodana :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:40:03 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

Der ehrwürdige bhante besitzt noch den pc ! Bhante idananno ist für 2 Tage nach phnom phen. Wenn bhante wieder. Da ist, werde ich ihn  fragen und mich darum kümmern dass bhante  einen Zugang zum onlinekloster bekommt!  :-* :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:26:26 PM
Hat Bhante noch den alten PC und das USB modem? Wenn Nyom, nach fragen, seine Sim da reintut, kann er damit sangham.net erreichen. Atma Tel. Nr. 012 345 025 wenn Nyom etwas benötigt.
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
Entwürdiger bhante Johann, alles fein hier! Ich kann nun, über mein altes Handy, auf das online-Kloster zugreifen!
 

Marcel

June 17, 2018, 01:22:11 PM
Entwürdiger bhante Johann, alles fein hier! Ich kann nun, über mein altes Handy, auf das online-Kloster zugreifen!
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:15:07 PM
Nyom? Marcel? Alles fein?
 

Johann

June 17, 2018, 01:14:25 PM
Atma kann nicht slowenisch, nur etwas Windisch/Kärntnerisch.

Soviele Raunzwörter... nie über Segensausdrücke gestolpert.

Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.
 

Moritz

June 17, 2018, 10:15:01 AM
Pozdravljeni, Guest!
 

Johann

June 16, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
Sadhu, may Nyom nourish on and rejoice with the merits done and gain pleasant and insightful dwellings of access.
 

Moritz

June 16, 2018, 04:32:09 PM
Chom reap lea.
May Bhante have a good day.
_/\_
 

Johann

June 16, 2018, 09:51:31 AM
Sokh chomreoun Nyom.

(May sukha (happiness) grow to its perfection, "previous father/relative")
 

Moritz

June 16, 2018, 09:38:06 AM
Vandami, Bhante.
Ich bin erst mal weg hier.
_/\_
 

Johann

June 12, 2018, 10:15:27 AM
Mag man sich, mag sich jeder, der Erinnerung an den Neumonduposatha, für geschicktes nutzen.

May everyone takes the New-moon Uposatha as a reminder for acting skilfully
 

Johann

June 06, 2018, 07:21:10 PM
Sadhu!
 

Sophorn

June 06, 2018, 03:02:27 AM
Einen verdienstvollen Uposatha heute  :-*
 

Johann

May 29, 2018, 06:44:12 PM
So der Tag mit Sonnenaufgang beginnt, ist selbt in Asien noch viel Gelegenheit dazu.
 

Sophorn

May 29, 2018, 05:53:50 PM
Möge heute ein verdienstvoller Tag gewesen sein!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 29, 2018, 11:57:01 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 29, 2018, 11:37:19 AM
 :-* :-* :-*

mögen sie alle ein verdienstvollen uposatha haben!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 22, 2018, 10:11:37 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 22, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
einen verdienstvollen uposatha wünsche ich allen  :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

May 19, 2018, 03:07:57 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

ehrwürdiger bhante

 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 19, 2018, 03:05:38 PM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 01:24:42 PM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 14, 2018, 01:23:37 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha

 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 08:34:09 AM
Schüsse von Wilderern am Tag sind ja nicht ungewöhnlich, doch aus mehreren Richtungen und automatischen Waffen doch bisher hier nicht üblich gewesen. Möge niemand anderen Schaden zufügen und sich mit Abstehen davon jeder beschützen.
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 01:06:38 AM
It's not an accident that you came here and it will be not an accident whether one stays, comes back or leaves for another becoming or goes beyond.
 

Johann

May 13, 2018, 06:51:53 AM
Mag da keiner seine Mutter an dem Tag vergessen zu ehren.
 

Johann

May 11, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
Nyom Marcel.

Schlangentag und -nacht heute. Wem mag man was vergönnen? Der Schlange? Den Mäusen? Metta & Samvega oder umgekehrt? Mal angstlos Hunger, mal Angst, mal Maus, mal Schlange, essen, gegessen, verfolgen, gejagt...
 

Marcel

May 11, 2018, 11:57:36 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
ehrwürdiger bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 10, 2018, 04:00:02 PM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Marcel

May 09, 2018, 03:08:42 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 09, 2018, 07:01:42 AM
Nyom Matthew.
 

Johann

May 06, 2018, 11:49:06 PM
Chamreoun bo, Moritz
 

Moritz

May 06, 2018, 05:12:29 AM
Vandami Bhante _/\_
Einen angenehmen Tag. _/\_
 

Johann

May 04, 2018, 12:18:14 PM
...And what is lack of food for the arising of unarisen sloth & drowsiness, or for the growth & increase of sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen? There is the potential for effort, the potential for exertion, the potential for striving. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is lack
 

Johann

May 04, 2018, 12:14:44 PM
...“Und was ist das Fehlen von Nahrung für unaufgekommene Faulheit und Trägheit, oder für das Wachsen und Mehren von Faulheit unf Trägheit, wenn einmal aufgekommen? Da ist das Vermögen für Anstrengung, das Vermögen für Ausübung, das Vermögen für Streben. Dafür passende Aufmerk
 

Sophorn

April 30, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
Sadhu.  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

April 30, 2018, 01:04:45 AM
Ein hingabevolles Visakha-Fest, allen die es heute begehen, oder nochmal.


A devoted Visakha-fest for all who conduct it today, or again.[/en]
 

Johann

April 29, 2018, 08:42:23 AM
Sadhu!
 

Sophorn

April 29, 2018, 05:54:57 AM
Viel Segen und Einsicht heute an Vesakh Bochea!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

April 29, 2018, 02:08:23 AM
Heute oder morgen gedenkt und erfreut man sich an Buddhas Geburt, Erwachen und letztes Dahinscheinden.

_/\_

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
 

Marcel

April 28, 2018, 02:58:36 PM
 :-* Ehrwürdiger Bhante  :-*

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