* * *

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Recent Topics

[July 16, 2018, 10:31:04 AM]

[July 16, 2018, 10:25:40 AM]

[July 16, 2018, 10:24:45 AM]

[July 14, 2018, 05:20:59 PM]

[July 14, 2018, 04:39:29 PM]

[July 14, 2018, 03:49:32 PM]

[July 14, 2018, 03:15:12 PM]

[July 14, 2018, 12:07:36 PM]

[July 14, 2018, 10:17:46 AM]

[July 14, 2018, 09:50:55 AM]

[July 13, 2018, 04:28:32 PM]

[July 13, 2018, 03:54:29 PM]

[July 12, 2018, 02:19:57 AM]

[July 11, 2018, 11:55:05 PM]

[July 11, 2018, 10:14:17 PM]

[July 11, 2018, 09:38:44 PM]

[July 11, 2018, 08:10:00 PM]

[July 11, 2018, 12:19:22 PM]

[July 10, 2018, 08:41:10 AM]

[July 10, 2018, 08:37:14 AM]

[July 09, 2018, 07:26:12 AM]

[July 09, 2018, 05:30:17 AM]

[July 09, 2018, 01:44:36 AM]

[July 08, 2018, 10:22:12 AM]

[July 08, 2018, 01:02:15 AM]

[July 07, 2018, 09:59:53 PM]

[July 07, 2018, 09:57:15 PM]

[July 02, 2018, 04:42:23 PM]

[July 02, 2018, 04:31:32 PM]

[July 02, 2018, 04:27:22 PM]

[July 02, 2018, 03:58:02 PM]

[July 02, 2018, 03:57:41 PM]

[July 02, 2018, 02:36:44 PM]

[July 02, 2018, 11:40:35 AM]

[July 02, 2018, 11:31:10 AM]

[July 02, 2018, 10:46:06 AM]
[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] How accurate is AN 9.20–Velāma Sutta in your opinion? (making merits?)  (Read 289 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +344/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
How accurate is AN 9.20 – Velāma Sutta in your opinion?
(Does merits making instead of practicing make sense?
Is there possible success if practicing without making merits?)


Quote from: by Breath, on BSE
How accurate is AN 9.20 – Velāma Sutta in your opinion?

would really like to here how accurate is AN 9.20 – Velāma Sutta is in your opinion

* Is stuff exaggerated in places ?
* If you give all the stuff velama gave wouldn't you get at least a little more than a "whiff of a heart of good will" while doing so - more moments of good will than just one ?
* Im not sure i remember all i want to ask about this sutta so if you have anything to add that is welcomed


Link to the sutta :

http://www.accesstoinsight.eu/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.020.than_en.html[1]
 1. link original to ati, here to get to the German transl. in .eu changed

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" that can be found here .)

Breath, and those interested, those possible worthy of special gifts, capable to take,

assuming that accurate is meant in regard of the followed question that might be rephrased "Does the Buddha say here: Giving does not lead to merits, when saying: 'If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and [in addition to that] if one were to feed one person...'.

Actually this Sutta (or better wrong understandig of it) is in fact for most wester and modern people the reason why they deny that making merits, developing goodness, is needed and so deny the developing of generosity, sila, if even, without goodness cause of letting go for the sake of beyond.

Most western, moder "Buddhist" are actually training in line of th Jains who seek refuge in what is called householder-equanimity by the Buddha, meaning that they develope ignorance in the cloth of equanimity the construct around the actual path of letting go and factually do not give anything but merely amass in this way. Make simply sacrifies to keep the flame of death alive, loka-dana.

See: [Q&A] What happens when your tank is empty, and you’ve got nothing left to give

It's message is also (and with the same cause) that giving without virtue "regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given inattentively, disrespectfully, not with one's own hand, as if throwing it away, with the view that nothing will come of it", or an object of virtue (without reflecting and keeping "buddha, Dhamma, Sangha", un-deluded in mind, has not much value for the path.

Giving so, no good perception of something worthy for gifts (because there is no worthy known or traced), the gift, sacrify is for like-alike, sacrify for like-alike or even lower, leads one there, keeps one there, simply for the sake of keeping the flame of death alive.

Like many (Brahmans, some even for what they think that it leads them to become Buddhas, being Velama, yet not even have wealth to share, to possible differents to Vemala) here. They possible think that they make merits why carring about an "unclean" place, are attached to like-alike and not directing their sacrifies to the three juwels, the Sangha as the unexcelt field of merits. So they nurish just whe world, what ever one nurishes will grow (inwardl and outwardly), and that counts for staring as well.

Doing "merits" in such a way, it is clear that people putting effort into perceptions which are not worthy of special sacrifies, actually just sacrify for their own sake, becoming and selfish purpose.

That is why one should keep right joy in giving in mind, using the three juwels as perception, Nibbana and what leads there, as object of ones deeds, one who seeks for gaining merits, goodness, that leads upwards and beyound. It such is done in an enviroment that does not provide for developing such, has not the purpose for such, is not supported by proper joy, people directed to Nibbana, but simply fot the worlds and becoming sake, to keep the flame of becoming, death alive, its of no fruits of no merits at all:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Householder, regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given inattentively, disrespectfully, not with one's own hand, as if throwing it away, with the view that nothing will come of it: Wherever the result of that gift comes to fruition, one's mind will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid food, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid clothing, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid vehicles, will not incline to the enjoyment of the splendid five strings of sensuality. And one's sons & daughters, slaves, servants, & workers will not listen to one, will not lend ear, will not make their minds attend for the sake of knowledge. Why is that? Because that is the result of inattentive actions."
Quote from: AN 9.20

Is like in MN96:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“Brahmin, it is like a poor miserable man against his wish was told, here good man, you should eat meat and you should not spend money on it. In a likewise manner, without the consent of recluses and Brahmins, have appointed these four services. Brahmin, I do not say all services should be done. I do not say, all services should not be done. When doing those services if there is evil, that service is not good. I say it should not be done. When doing those services, if there is no evil, that service is good. (and vici vera).
Quote from: MN 96, translated by Sister Upalavanna

Like the person who had put Sister Uppalavannas translation with a lot of sacrifies on the web (obove linked), he had possible made it in a manner of no fruits to aspected from it, althought it might come to frutaions. Possible without keeping Silas, respectless, thinking on amasing for ones own sake or what holding as self/real. Doing for reputations, wealth (physical, mental by knowledge), praise, pleasant feeling... or simply out of wrong view, invest his sacrifies for unreal and not to real directed sakes, for the world: Not to tend up-wards, most not even tend as it currently is, up simply wasts his als goodness, merits away.

Many of modern lay or opposing undertakings and practices, and their ways, unguided, self-over-estmating in wealth and possiblities, simple waste old merits an goodness possible earlier attained. So it is with all that meditation stuff and well-ness-buddhism, all simple certain ego or not-ego trips.

Be attentive, pay proper attention and learn to judge more wisely, step by step, with real benefical sacrifies and their targets!

May this sacrify made by me, benefit those able to rejoice with it, lead to highest bliss, path and fruit, and may the Devas inform those who do not have seen or heard yet.

Anumodana!

[Later Addition (on account of an answer here) to understand quality of Dana better:

There are 3 factors:

- The giver (his mindstate, directed to...? free of moha, lobha, dosa, or not) - since Velama was an "ordinary" being, perfection can not be aspected, he also had neither inwardly nor outwardly an access to the tripple gems or the/a Buddha, could possible not even images such.

- The recipient (since at this time there where no Buddha no Sangha and the gifts might not have been given to a Pacceccabuddha, they have been directed to "ordinary" people.)

- The gift (it was clearly outstanding and therefore had it's certain frutation)

The Suttas give direct 6 factors: Dana Sutta: Giving

When one has the wrong perception of a worthy recipient, holding something not really worthy for worthy, thinking this or that wordling is a Noble one, having no perception of those following the Noble One, it is to be assumed that the gifts are given out of right view and so have not much value in direction of Nibbana. People think normal not in spheres of free of fetters but on what ever benefits or wordily aims. Having the tripple Gems possible still present, many are gifted with that unexcelt field of merits and it is merely "sad" if not used.

That is why just a spoon of rice, with the right mindstate to a worthy person excells even the biggest wealth given if this two factors are not perfect. Or just the Veneration torward a Noble is many times higher as doing charity to torward ordinary people day by day, the whole year. See Dhp ]

More on Dana, note that the princip in it counts also for the merits sila, samadhi, can be found with references and discussion here: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 01:02:42 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante
 :-*  :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
 :)  ;) Moritz, gut einfühlbar. In Österreich lebte der Körper nach der asiatischen Uhr, hier in N nach der österreichischen Uhr.
Nicht zeitgerecht der Natur entsprechend zu leben, überfordert den Körper.  
Beste Grüße aus Kathmandu!  :-*
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 11:06:18 AM
Sadhu, und vergesse Nyom sich nicht.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
Es wird spät in Hawaii. Einen friedlichen Tag allen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:40:41 AM
Ja, gestern Vormittag bis Nachmittag. Ich lebe wohl gerade ungefähr im Einklang mit der Zeitzone von Hawaii.
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 07:36:45 AM
Nyom Moritz. Hat er auch ausreichend Schlaf genommen?
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:30:08 AM
Good day, Bhante _/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 03:20:13 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 03:07:40 AM
Ach ja, hab nun geändert. Vielleicht klappt's nun beim nächsten probieren @Roman
_/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 02:21:56 AM
Vielleicht gut wenn Meister Moritz Nyom Roman die 5 Mühsam-Beitagszahl hineinzaubert, da dann spamschutz wegfällt und er zu den unöffentlichen Foren Zugang hat.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:13:06 PM
Hier eine kurze Bild-Erklärung zum Beantworten von Themen und Beiträgen.
Wenn noch Probleme, gern weiter hier nachfragen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Gut zu hören, dass der Bruder sich mitfreut. Sadhu! :)
Möge alles problemlos im Eintritt in das neue Leben für ihn laufen. _/\_

Roman

July 12, 2018, 09:01:41 PM
Danke moritz

Ich werde es ausprobieren!!

Aufjedenfall war es eine sehr erfreuliche Nachricht! ! Ich bin sehr stolz auf marcel!! Mein herz geht auf!! Wunderschön!
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:58:37 PM
(Also auch auf der neuen Seite, wo dann das Text-Eingabefeld ist: Das Text-Eingabefeld ist nicht gleich im Fokus, sondern man muss erst ein gutes Stück nach unten scrollen, um es zu finden.)
Nicht sicher gerade, wie es auf Smartphone aussieht, ob da viel anders ist.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Wenn man ganz unten ans Ende der letzten Nachricht scrollt, sollte da ein Button "Reply" oder "Antworten" sein. (Je nach eingestellter Sprache vielleicht.) Da drauf klicken. Dann sollte auf der nächsten Seite eine Texteingabe-Ansicht erscheinen. Zu der muss man aber erst ein Stück runter scrollen.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Oh, die Nachricht wurde abgeschnitten. Hier in der Shoutbox sind nur ein paar hundert Zeichen möglich.
Ja, das Forum ist etwas unübersichtlich am Anfang. Moment, ich versuche mal, zu erklären. :)

Roman

July 12, 2018, 08:41:24 PM
Hallo

Ich lese sehr viel hier!! Es ist sehr interessant!! Die Menge an Infos! ! Sehr toll!!..Ich habe versucht auf den Beitrag zu reagieren der die Entwicklung von nyom marcel beschreibt..glaube von Johann verfasst. Jedoch weiß ich noch nicht genau wie dieses funktioniert.
Ich habe die Nachric
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:34:57 PM
Hallo Roman, Binocular/Visitor _/\_
 

Johann

July 12, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 10:08:30 PM
Ohh... es ist woeder mal 3 geworden. Atma erlaubt sich, sich zurückzuziehen und sich etwas um die Malaria zu kümmern.
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
Sadhu zu Ersten Ausruf/ Aufruf. Sadhu zum zweiten, zu Vorbildhaftigkeit, und mag er sich stets entlassen fühlen
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 07:00:07 PM
Chom reap leah, Bhante _/\_
Nun wirklich weg hier für heute, Arbeit ruft.
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 05:43:01 PM
Allen gute Besinnung auf was besinnenswert ([1] | [2] ) ist wünschend _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 08, 2018, 09:33:25 AM
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 09:28:47 AM
Nyom Sophorn
 

Danilo

July 08, 2018, 12:20:06 AM
Bhante and Moritz _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 12:16:49 AM
Moritz, Danilo
 

Moritz

July 08, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
Good evening, morning or whatever the time here and there. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 04:20:58 PM
Meister Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:57:42 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 02:36:37 PM
  :-* Hallo Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
Hallo, Marcel, Sophorn. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 05:18:33 AM
Nyom Sophorn, Nachricht von Bhante Indannano: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1554.msg15198.html#msg15198
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 03:51:28 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:22:38 AM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:08:22 AM
Geruhsame Nacht, Nyom
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:48:32 AM
Gute Nacht. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:47:01 AM
Hallo Mirco! :)
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:46:48 AM
Sadhu. Möge Bhante lange gesund bleiben. _/\_
 

Johann

July 01, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
Sadhu

Angenehmen, klärenden Tag. Auch allen anderen.

Atmas Gesundheit, trotz der durch stetes Regnen zahlreicher Mitesser, ist soweit ok und wer weis wie morgen. Bisher schon länger malariaanfallverschont.

 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
(Bin erst mal kurz weg vom Computer.
Chom reap leah. _/\_)
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:41:41 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante. _/\_

Wie steht es um Ihre Gesundheit und Malaria?

_/\_
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 03:48:17 AM
Hallo Sophorn!
Gruß auch zurück nach Österreich :) _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 01, 2018, 03:40:58 AM
Freut mich, dass es gut geht.

Beste Grüsse nach Asien und Resteuropa!  :-*
 

Marcel

June 30, 2018, 12:23:03 AM
Werte sophorn,
Mir geht es gut!  :-*
 

Sophorn

June 29, 2018, 08:23:49 PM
Werter Marcel,
Wie geht's?
 :-*
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:10:49 AM
  :'(- irrtümlich gesendet!!
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:08:00 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-* :'(
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:07:58 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-*

Show 50 latest