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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Why Buddha was not worried about his family? (leaving family duties)  (Read 90 times)

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Offline Johann

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Why Buddha was not worried about his family? (leaving family duties)

Why Buddha was not worried about his family after enlightenment?

Of course, after getting enlightened, One is free from worry: now the person is in higher dimension and is always happy, as he knows how perfect everything is.

But still Buddha's family was there; I mean, wasn't his family his responsibility?

I remember when the Buddha came back to the palace and met his wife: she asked, "just tell me, if it was possible to get enlightenment in the palace."

How necessary is it to leave our families to practice, and if it is not necessary why didn't Buddha just come back? I always feel sad when I think about Siddhārtha Gautama's wife Yashodhara.

If one is enlightened, he can not hurt anyone feelings: but Buddha hurt Yashodhara's feelings?

I know I am incorrect somewhere, because after all He was enlightened, so he can not take wrong decision.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*


(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" that can be found here .)



- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Rishi and those interested

Family responsibility is a very high one, a "duty" and in fullfilling it, Buddha had point such deeds having done as one of the highest protection, highest blessings:

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Support for one's parents,
  assistance to one's wife and children,
  consistency in one's work:
      This is the highest protection.

Giving, living in rectitude,
  assistance to one's relatives,
  deeds that are blameless:
      This is the highest protection.

Family, aside of blood relation, should be seen as the group of supporters, those one is in certain ways bound for ones benefit and voluntary life-support. Of with one, importand to know, should one not be stingy in share access for others to certain benefits. Otherwise one is incapable to reach highee stages of existances, at the same time, ingratitude is causes the same obstacle.

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings], stinginess as to one's family [of supporters], stinginess as to one's gains, stinginess as to one's status, and ingratitude. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship.

"With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship..."

So there semms to be a conflict also in the Buddhas teaching on this matter. "Pay debt, in ways of grateful acts and at the same time, share and let go of the 'family'?" But actually it isn't, if looking on it deeper.

So leaving the blood related family a little in regard, the family meant on primarly level, one migh see that friends, collegs groups of people around ones "livestyle", be it a good, or a bad, are often, from a personal view, in dependency what one individuall sees a benefical and joy-supporting, higher regarded as blood-family.

If such a non-blood-related family, father, mother... supports in just ways of sensual pleasures, such higher regard is wrong. The lowest and higherst kind of support can be seen as in:

  • (1) harmful (for one self and other) ways of providing enjoyment in sensuallity and the four prerequisites: regarding fools as relatives and family, people providing each other with drugs, poisions, using means like lying, taking what is not given, as means to come to the desired objects of enjoyment. A wandering on in the realms of animals, hungry ghosts and hell, with short visits in good realms.(This group, is by most being regarded as the most benefical, and therefore most binding)

     
  • (2) harmless ways of providing enjoyment in sensuality and the four prerequisites: this is the good family in the world, with it common lose and gain, wandering on inpleasant ways, for life like humans and devas. Providing by means of harmlessness and rightous gains by proper sacrifies.

     
  • (3) providing enjoyment without much special enjoyment but the four requisites (food, cloth, shelter, medicine): by proper, harmless and sacrify of own. This is where all beings parents always fall under. Short, long... starting by being received and provided in a womb. A/the family that leaves open all ways, does not bind in certain direction of ones own tendency and intent. Including also support in regard a basic skills and knowledge in the world. This family is regarded as gods.

     
  • (4) heavenly relation, providing with livelihood beyond material food and needs by harmless means. The relation with teacher, Devas and gods, exchanging and sharing virtues above ordinary realms. This is the highest family-relation within the world. So also the duty or responsibility level.

     
  • (5) relation with the Noble One, providing in the most respons-able way torward the whole family of wordily beings, with the needs of path and the aim of beyond being anyhow related any more: unbond***: This is the direct relation with the Buddhas, the Dhamma and the bondless community of Nobel Ones, Sangha. The highest responsibility, and duty one can fullfil, become part with the aim: "The task is done. The holly live fullfilled. No more further (duties, responsibilities) for the world (and its beings). Free of debt."
So when one considers this levels of families, their positions in regard in responsibility, one, for oneself more or less still to much bound in lower relations, might nevertheless see that taking on higher regard of relations and responsibilities has to be rightous also regarded as such, and will be, of people who are not totally blind. Yet one him/herself might be not able (better willing to go forward) to leave certain levels and step higher in regard. Nevertheless, higher relations, higher taking on of responsibility, will e regarded as praiseworthy, heros of people with basic right view, not to speak of people of integrity: "going forth/forward, is always praised by the wise!"

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.I.7.12) The money-lender saw Yasa sitting there and on seeing him said to him, “Yasa, my son, your mother is lamenting and full of grief. Give your mother her life (back?)!”

...(Mv.I.7.13) Then Yasa looked up at the the Blessed One. Then the Blessed One said to the money-lender, “What do you think, householder: For Yasa, who has seen and known the Dhamma with the knowledge and vision of one in training—just as you have—whose mind, as he reflected on the level (of mind) as he had seen and known it, was through lack of clinging/sustenance released from effluents: Would it be possible for him to revert to the lower life and indulge in sensuality as he did before as a householder?”

“No, lord.”

“Householder, Yasa has seen and known the Dhamma with the knowledge and vision of one in training, just as you have.

“Reflecting on the level (of mind) as he had seen and known it, his mind was, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released from effluents.

“It would be impossible for Yasa to revert to the lower life and indulge in sensuality as he did before as a householder.”

(Mv.I.7.14) [The money-lender:] “Lord, it’s a gain for Yasa, a great gain for Yasa, that his mind is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released from effluents!

“May the Blessed One acquiesce to my meal tomorrow, with Yasa as your attendant monk.”

The Blessed One acquiesced with silence.

Then the money-lender, understanding the Blessed One’s acquiescence, got up from his seat, bowed down to him, circumambulated him, keeping him to his right, and left.

(Mv.I.7.15) Then Yasa, not long after the money-lender had left, said to the Blessed One,

“May I receive the Going-forth in the Blessed One’s presence? May I receive the Acceptance?”

“Come, monk.” Said the Blessed One. “The Dhamma is well-taught. Live the holy life.”

Such was the venerable one’s Acceptance. At that time there were seven arahants in the world.
Quote from: The Discussion of Going-forth [/quote]

[My person shell stop here, to visit certain past relatives here for/to give alms, so that they might develope possible, increase, relations of higher kinds, for now, as well: continuing is not sure and not really obligated. Let's see.]

Secular "Buddhist" do not regard relations (upanissaya) and mostly also not the three things wise praisesn "Generosity (dāna), assistance for father and mother (eg. relativesb sīla), going forth (*bhāvana), even using the labels for outsider (people who have no relation with the Noble ones, even by outwardly fullfilling of duties to them: tending and possible even already outcasts based on their elements of views ).

(Kind of) Persons (whom one tends to, personality), dwelling (country, places), weather (clima), food (that is clinged on, prefered), among with other Dhammas, are matters of upanissayapaccayena , strong relation cause. As the Buddha pointed out is that realatives in tendency common meet each other again and again, gather together, and it is seldom that beings strive for higher relationship, giving nurishment and food, paccaya (strong causes) for such, by promted deeds (merely deliberated; not just unpromted, merely accidentally).

If one is blessed - see the lower highest blessings in regard of condition/relation in the Mangala Sutta "living among upright people/rigthous countries", one will propable learn outwardly proper regards of what is worthy to nurish by giving respect (again: generosity, fullfilling duties of releations and going forth). If born amoung "Brahmas" or people without relation to good relations, living in a strong devotion to unrightous individual lack of relation, in a lost generation, it's very, very seldom to come or to even meet consciously higher relations and requires strong effort to possible do not lose last upanissaya with people of integrity: finding at least strong relation with the lowest family (see above (1)).

So every contact with good families, even noble, is very auspicious. Like meeting the heavenly messangers is seldom (bodywitnessing on the level of mind: oldage, sickness, death, Samana/recluse) and with it the truth of relations getting disenchantment to wordily ones (1-4) and seeing that all other relatives live on the pain of their or other relatives. Mother killing previous mother for here child, cild kills previous child for fullfilling wordily duties to its mother...

Let my person provide here a personal story of meeting once again heaveny messangers in this existence:

By Devas guided and protected, my person once left the palace another time. While sitting on the bank of the Mekong in as so called very poor but actually most rich country, Kampochea (Abundance by own work - or non by lack of it), especially in regard of the seven real treasures, and reflecting a blessed life and it's inconstancy, kamboja (kamma paccaya), having seen the relation of masters and slaves already. Then a beggar child, about 4 years, took on the generouse abounded recycling cans and bottles by the hotel owner. No long after that a begging woman, with a baby beated off the beggar child to get the "treasures". At this moment it was clear to me, either if subtile or platant, beings of wordily relations kill each other for the sake of being related and so directly knowing that the strive for relation or responsibility is higher then any other reletion since it does not take side in a battle and benefits then all of the past relatives, all being, whether regarded as own or not own. This was when my person got reminded by meeting the heavingly messangers another time in this existence.

When one has a relation, one has a contract, spoken or unspoken. One holds a promis when holding a relation. Breaking a promise , a contract, is generally breaking precepts, good conduct. But in cases where one ends a contract, a relation, even with disagreement or the contract partner, for the sake of leaving a lower relation to a higher, it might sake the world caused by breaking out of Samsara.

In short: So if one breaks up a relation for other kinds of wordily relations, does not "care" of responsibility, still nurishing on it, is of cause wrong. Not to speak from breaking up responsibility and relation when going into lower life, relations, for its sake. But if one "leaves« and abounds responsibility, outwardly and inwardly, on wordly levels, in that way showing responsibility an compassion for the sake of all beings, such is more than praise worthy. Now of course not easy to see, to be used to, not to speak of done. A person having even entered the stream, has actually left the direct relation to the family of the Noble One and also the strive after it is a righteous reason to give up certain from other demanted duties, for the sake of higher benefit even for them.

That is especially not easy if near blood relatives are actually relatives of the Devas, when one is related, used to dwell with wives, children, friends of the family of Devas, to leave even parents, wives and chikds, friends, co-worker, assistants and slaves... and it's not so that all Devas, this days, understand.

Sometimes, which is not for sure, ones "beloved" are able to follow t certain extend, sometimes they do not fall of being even the most importand admirable friend.

One regards the highest as the highest, that what is in front, behind, right next, is know and responsibility of another dimension is taken on.

Under all breaking up of responsibilities of wordily realation, only in regard of the parents, the Buddha gave after request (by Ven. Ananda) to obligation to ask for leave, since a leave of high responsibility might give problems for the estimate of the conventional Sangha.

Monks, especially in regard of possession of the Sangha, are even restricted to show responsibility of wordily value, so to support laypeople, those not after the holly life, on a ideal level, wordilings with material support. Accept to those after the holy life, with tendency to higher conduct and mother and father, a Bhikkhu is not given to share usuall support. A topic that is actually broad and deep connected with corrution in maintaining wordily relations, a serious fault (Sg.13 )

In regard of Sangha-property, the convential family of monks has (had) only with two fellow, related religions (bonds, famalies) certain possibilities and duties to take on responsibility: that is the Bhikkhuni-community and their Samaneras , see also duties of teacher and disciples: Vatta Khandhaka: Collection of Duties .

The overview of duties of those having gone forth are topics of:
  • Incoming Bhikkhus' Duties
  • Resident Bhikkhus' Duties
  • Departing Bhikkhus' Duties
  • The Duties in Giving "approve" (of good deeds: Anumodana)
  • Refectory Duties
  • The Duties for Bhikkhus Going for Alms
  • The Duties of Bhikkhus Living in the Wilderness
  • Lodging Duties
  • Toilet Duties
  • Pupils' Duties
  • Mentors' Duties

All of course "dutiesk in reagard of the Holly Life and for Nibbanas sake, the strive for it as highest underlying responsibility.

There is no responsibility in regard of lay people, aside of certain conducts of "foreign - policy" for the sake of estimation of the Sangha at large, by Bhikkhus.

The gift of teaching the Dhamma is a individual total voluntary act of goodness (if not made out of corruption and the sake of livelihood and requisits: such is not allowed).

Further readings:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

..."These three persons are evident in the world. What three? Bhikkhus, there is a person that should not be associated, there is one that should be associated and there is another that should be honoured and revered and associated.

"Who is the person that should not be associated? Bhikkhus, a certain person is below par in virtues, concentration and wisdom. Such should not be associated unless out of sympathy and compassion...
Quote from: AN 3.26

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Not consorting with fools,
  consorting with the wise,
  paying homage to those worthy of homage:
      This is the highest protection.

Living in a civilized land,
  having made merit in the past,
  directing oneself rightly:
      This is the highest protection.
Quote from: Maha Mangala sutta

Useful synonymous of realation/-ship/family: ñāta, kāya, saṅghaṃ, upanissāya, guṇā, nissāya, supporters, benefactors, ...
 
Anumodana/dedication of the merits (a usual dedication when having made a gift.)

ឥទំ វោ ទានំ ញាតីនំ ហោតុ សុខិតា ហោន្តុ ញាតយោ

Īdaṃ vo dānaṃ ñātīnaṃ hotu sukhitā hontu ñātayo!

May this sacrifies be for (my) relatives, may (my) relatives develope happiness with it!

Dedicated and in responsibility for the family of the Noble One and their followers, for the current blood/"own" family, for the family of all beings.

That is the why the Dhamma, and proper responsibility in regard of relation, is pleasant at itjs beginning, in the middle an the end.

It's possible to become a relativ of, a khema , step by step!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Marcel

November 15, 2017, 10:28:45 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger samana johann  :-*
 

Johann

November 15, 2017, 10:22:52 AM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Sophorn

November 10, 2017, 09:42:54 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
Versucht mit laptop einzuloggen, aber die Updates ziehen sich dahin...
Möge der heutige Uposatha ein Tag der Erkenntnis und des Segens sein.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

October 31, 2017, 05:36:49 AM
 :-*ehrwürdiger samana johann :-* ich hoffe, es geht ihnen gut und die dhamma-praxis schreitet vorran!
 

Johann

October 30, 2017, 01:48:18 AM
Nyom Sophorn.
 

Maria

October 25, 2017, 05:08:34 PM
Danke geht allen gut. Werther Bhante hoffentlich auch ?
 

Johann

October 25, 2017, 04:39:43 PM
Maria.
Familie und Freunden geht es gut? Nyom Maria selbst wohl auf, gesund?
 

Johann

October 19, 2017, 02:41:38 PM
Wenn jemand über das Layout des Entwurfes blicken möchte, ob es im eigenen Browser paßt und übersichtlich ist: Wisdom
 

Johann

October 16, 2017, 05:40:03 PM
Sokh chomreoun, Nyom. (Mag sukha sich für Nyom mehren). Thoamada (Dhammada - naturly, gewohnt). At mean ay pisech te (nichts besonders). Klach dukkh, klach sokh (wohl und weh wechseln sich ab). Nyom sokh sabay dea te? Sokh leumom dea te?
 

Marcel

October 16, 2017, 04:13:43 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger samana johann! wie ist ihr befinden?  :-*
 

Marcel

October 07, 2017, 01:56:00 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

October 07, 2017, 02:48:39 AM
Der Tathagata tut das, wenn man ihn in seinem Dhamma sieht, und dieser, entgegen Personen, kommt auf wenn man ihn nährt, und einmal da, geht er für einen nicht mehr verloren, bleibt Tor zur Todlosigkeit.
 

Marcel

October 06, 2017, 11:37:24 PM
 :-*
 

Marcel

October 06, 2017, 11:36:31 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger samana johann :-* mögen sie noch lange leben,   für das wohl vieler.... anumodana, ich freue mich sehr! sie decken auf, was vorher verdeckt. so das vijja entstehen kann, und avijja gehen muss!! geht direkt ins herz!
 

Johann

October 06, 2017, 04:19:37 PM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Sophorn

September 28, 2017, 03:51:05 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

September 27, 2017, 12:17:53 PM
Nyom Sophorn, Roben mag man immer geben können. Im Monat nach dem Vassa Ende, ist es für jene Mönche, die den Vassa gehalten haben, möglich und einfacher für den Eigenbedarf Roben anzunehmen.
 

Sophorn

September 27, 2017, 07:01:23 AM
Bhante, ist dann die Robengabe möglich ab dem 5. Okt. bid zum nächsten Vollmond oder darf man auch danach Roben geben? :-*
 

Sophorn

September 27, 2017, 05:44:45 AM
Wie geht es Bhante heute? Haben die Tropfen geholfen?
 ::) :-*
 

Johann

September 05, 2017, 01:21:44 AM
Gerestet: funktioniert tadellos. Nochmal alle Zugangsdaten gemailt, Nyom.
 

Sophorn

September 04, 2017, 02:06:42 PM
Kana hat mit U. Chamroeun das Login mit neuem Passwort erfolglos versucht.
Daraufhin versuchten kana das über die Veränderung über E-mail, aber da erschien, dass die E-mailadresse nicht gültig war (die hatten Bhante auch an kana in der Mail bestätigt)
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

September 04, 2017, 11:52:03 AM
Sollte email im Posteingang haben, Nyom Sophorn.
 

Johann

September 04, 2017, 11:41:14 AM
Kann nicht antworten auf was, Nyom Maria? Was und wo genauer?

Nyom Sophorn. Nyom Chomroeun kann kurzlich email Daten bekommen. Mal annehmend das PW auch vergessen, (abgesenhen von der Möglichkeit, link zu drücken wenn) wird Atma ein neues anlegen und ihm mailen.
 

Maria

September 04, 2017, 11:30:41 AM
 :-*
Werther Bhante , selbiges Problem was ich schon einmal hatte, Login geht aber kann nicht antworten, bin am Nachmittag bei neuen Computer, dieser hier ist schon über 12 Jahre alt.
 

Sophorn

September 04, 2017, 11:23:14 AM
Kana hat das File runtergeladen und U. Chamroeun gegeben,  der sich um die Kprrektur annehmen möchte. Kana wird auch gern das File den anderen Schülern zum Lesen teilen. Ev. sehen mehr Augen mehr.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

September 04, 2017, 11:17:06 AM
Verehrter Bhante, Chamroeun kann sich nicht einloggen. Ist das Passwort für E-mail oder sangham.net? In beiden Fällen haben kana das erfolglos probiert.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

September 04, 2017, 11:08:26 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

August 20, 2017, 01:37:40 AM
Es ist vielleicht gut eine Pause zu tun, doch kann es gut sein, daß man nicht zurückkehrt, für ein gutes oder schlechtes, für sich selbt und andere. Gut dort wo gut genährt und unterstützt und for allem Konzentration steigt, oder dort wo satt in jeder Hinsicht.
 

Johann

August 10, 2017, 11:31:40 AM
Wenn jemand Lust hat, oder anderen etwas Gutes oder Besseres tun kann und möchte: Korrekturlesen http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1018.msg9625.html#msg9625 Baue nach und nach, so gut wie möglich ein auf ZzE.
 

Johann

August 07, 2017, 02:24:55 AM
Einen ausübungsreichen Vollmond-Uposatha and Gelegenheit die Mönche zu besuchen wünscht meine Person.
 

Sophorn

July 25, 2017, 03:59:03 PM
... versteht und womöglich sieht, wenn er nicht den Weg hierher
findet.

Großer Dank an alle im Hintergrund.

Mögen all diese Früchte vielfach zurückkommen und inspirieren.

Ayu vanno sukkham balam

 :-* :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

July 25, 2017, 03:55:25 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
karuna tvay bongkum Preah metschah

Herzliches Hallo an alle nach sehr langem!

Ein herzliches Dankeschön aus tiefsten Herzen an alle, die sich hier aktiv und indirekt hier beteiligen. Vor allem ein großes Sadhu an Bhante, der unvergleichliche Arbeit leistet, die kaum jemand ver
 

Johann

July 24, 2017, 03:15:56 AM
Fehlinvestition: Was immer man nicht in die Juwelen, in den Pfad investiert, ist vergeude Mühe, schnurrr einen fest im Rad des Leidens. Prüfen Sie es!   :) Wiederholungstäter...
 

Johann

July 17, 2017, 01:50:17 AM
Moritz
 

Moritz

July 16, 2017, 02:28:02 PM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 14, 2017, 07:07:17 AM
Moritz. Gut ihn früh Morgens und nicht bis in den frühen Morgen zu sehen.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2017, 07:03:53 AM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2017, 08:12:46 AM
Moritz.
 

Moritz

July 13, 2017, 07:42:39 AM
Chom reap lea
_/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2017, 07:40:46 AM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2017, 02:26:09 AM
Vor mehr als 2500 Jahen wurde a diesem Vollmondtag das Rad des Dhammas in bewegung gesetzt. Anumodana!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 02, 2017, 08:24:13 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich bedanke mich bei Ihnen für Ihre nette Erklärung.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!

 

Johann

July 01, 2017, 07:43:41 PM
Nyom Mohan. Besser: "Ich hoffe, daß es Ihnen gut geht." und bestens (ohne suggerieren, wenn interessiert) "Wie geht es Ihnen." Oder: "Möge es Ihnen Gut gehen." (wenn metta ausdrücken wollend)
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 01, 2017, 10:43:15 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich glaube, dass es Ihnen gut geht.

Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

July 01, 2017, 10:32:46 AM
Werter Micro,
herzliche Grüße aus Sri Lanka nach Deutschland!
 

Johann

July 01, 2017, 10:32:17 AM
Nyom Mohan.
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Alles Zufälle. Nissaya. Und wenn da keine starke Grundlagenursache aufkommt, upanissayapaccayena, na dann war's das, und alles is weg. Lebewesen sind Erben ihrer Taten (im Geist, Wort und Körper).
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:27:24 PM
Schwupps und weg. Waffen und Nahrung geholt.

Oh, was sag ich. Wenn man's doch nehmen kann, auch ohne das Gefühl zu nehmen... Unsinn hier. Hat doch keiner interesse Verdienste zu tun.
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:21:28 PM
Mirco. Wie geht es?
 

Johann

June 25, 2017, 01:20:43 PM
Es ist doch viel angenehmer, wenn man sich nehmen kann was und wann immer man will, oder? Warum sollte man sich so viel antun, da sind genügend die Anbieten.

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