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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha  (Read 373 times)

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Offline Johann

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

May the Ven. Sirs allow my person to ask in regard of the Vinaya, here in this public section (it can be moved, if wished, to another, maybe more proper area, if that here might be an obstacle).

May space be given, may it not disturbe, Ven. Sir Thanissaro, Ven. Sir Nyanadassana , Ven. Sir Hasapanno , Ven. Sir Khematto, (via Dhammatalks ), Ven. Sir. my person is not gifted able to adress personal,

while translating the generous translation of the Mahavagga , by Bhante Khematto, on the way, in the middle of the Uposatha Khandhaka , within the Saṅghuposathādippabhedaṃ — Analysis of the Saṅgha-uposatha, etc. , under the PTS § 26.10 the thought arose: "There seems to be a contadiction, if a clear 'no fractional Uposatha should be held' has general priority, like told.

The commentary, shared by Ven. Thanissaro, seemingly displaying also the practiced usual, explains for the "paradoxk here:

Borderline quorums. The Canon states that if there are four bhikkhus in the territory, the Pāṭimokkha is not to be recited by three after the purity of one has been conveyed. The Commentary to Mv.II.14.2 adds that the three should not perform a mutual purity uposatha. This leaves only one option: All four must gather — if necessary, in the dwelling of the bhikkhu who was planning to send his purity — and recite the Pāṭimokkha. Similarly, if there are two or three bhikkhus in the territory, all must attend the uposatha meeting; none of them may have their purity conveyed.

Given that unity has priority, it seems to be reasonable. Not sure if there are commentaries of older times as well in this regard.

But now, when remembering the Ñātakādiggahaṇakathā — The Discussion of Seizure by Relatives, etc. , here the commentary to the also unclear seeming rules, seems to side the frational against no Uposatha, reading the commentary by Ven. Bhante Thanissaro:

Quote from: ??
When a bhikkhu is seized. If relatives, kings (government officials), robbers, mischief-makers, or opponents of the bhikkhus happen to seize a bhikkhu in the territory on the uposatha day, bhikkhus should ask them to release him at least long enough to participate in the uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to release him long enough to give his purity. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to take him outside the territory while the Community performs its uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the Community may not meet in that territory for the uposatha that day.

If that is the conclusion, which seems seemingly in line with the translation, here it is the case that the performans (without laypeople present) seems to be more importand then unity.

Now, what in the case if it was meant, that if letting go of him was managed, after the statement, and not to seperate?

So here the answer to the question of priority in general, unity vs. Uposatha-transaction, or simply just according the (more or lesser unclear single rules, following merely commentars) rules, seems to be reasonable to raise.

Why? Because it would not only give a better general orientation, what ever the answer might be, for many Bhikkhus and Sangha, but also for other people, in regard how to handle task vs. unity.

Following my persons perception of the situation in regard of the rules given in the Uposatha, the Uposatha should best possible be hold in unity. If there are "outwardly" conditions hindering to do so, if remembering the "Danger" issue in the Vassa section, the Uposatha might not be hold. If the obstacle is merely a single Bhikkhus "outwardly" obstacle, like when looking after the insane-case, the Sangha should prepear the ways to hold it, putting a non-intentional cause of a single person aside.

In the case of the "sick" Bhikkhu, the/a Sangha would be burdened, if performing the Uposatha next to him, was meant. On the other side it's understandable if the even stronger binding of a tiny community was objected...

Maybe the well versed Ven. Sirs can, if wishing and seeing a reason and possibility to lighten this case, out of compassion, pit upright of what was possible turned over. May the Ven. Sirs draw a leitmotif throught this cases, if such is seen to be of use and possible.

Is there a general priority in regard of unity vs. duty (for own benefit), a certain borderline, or should it be best followed case by case, like delivered by the elders, as far as seen?

If the Ven. Sirs, prefere to but it in an area, where issues of the topic could be properbly easier exchanged and discussed, please let it be known. It's lesser importand to supply with a detail discussion, than to supply with an answer in unity, by the elders, so that orientation might be easy for those with good confidence and for an increase of it general, for all those willing to follow behind.

 _/\_
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 10:50:43 AM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Ven. Sir,

may this addition be acceptable and useful:

Just reading in "Der Patimokkha " by Ven. Nyanadassana, in regard of the (aside of two) more logical seeming case of giving purity:


D) Uposathahandlung des Ordens, der Reinheit und der Bestimmung
(Saṅgha-, parisuddhi-, adhiṭṭhān-uposatha)

I) Uposathahandlung des Ordens (Saṅghuposatha)

Für vier oder mehr Mönche:

Wenn mindestens vier Mönche in einem Kloster wohnen, betrachtet man sie als einen Orden und am Uposathatag sollen sie das Pātimokkha rezitieren, so wie es vom Erhabenen bestimmt wurde:

"Ich erlaube, ... , den Pātimokkha zu rezitieren wenn [mindestens] vier Mönche anwesend sind." (MV 124)

Das selbe gilt, wenn es mehr als vier sind. Und:

"Dort wo vier Mönche wohnen, sollen sie nicht die Erklärung der Reinheit eines [Kranken, usw.] überbringen und zu dritt das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Wenn sie es rezitieren, begehen sie ein Dukkaṭavergehen." (MV 125)


In einem solchen Fall sollen sie, wenn sie sich in einer unbegrenzten Eingrenzung (abaddha-sīma) befinden, zusammen mit den Kranken, usw. zu viert das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Nämlich, der Kranke, usw. soll zu ihren Platz kommen oder, wenn nicht möglich, sie sollen zu seiner Platz gehen. (MV 120). Wenn jedoch in ihren Kloster eine begrenzte Eingrenzungshalle (baddha-sīma) gibt, dann können sie dort die Uposathahandllung der Reinheit (pārisuddhi-uposatha) für drei Mönche durchführen (s. unten II), ohne die Reinheit des Kranken, usw. zu überbringen.
Here 4, same principle for 3 and two

Against to key in the BMC with a commentary saying the Uposata for three should categorical not performed, when Purity is given by one of four, here it is stated, that if the is a baddha-sīma, the three might do so, not really giving priourity to the similar previous suggestion, to either bring the fourth or go to the forth, or doing for three.

It seemed to be that way, for my person, right when coming in contact with this rule. Althought not knowing where the pre-requirement of a baddha-sīma, here for that case, as prerequesite, is coming from, it fits to the rule itself. E.g. priority of duty (for own purity) first, in cases of hindrances for an individual. This then would be then also fine in regard of seizing.

The urging to act in unity is, in the sick ones case, displayed in the "Giving Purity section ", shows that the purity of all has priority. If one can, burdened, give purity, fine, no need to burden each other.

Now there is still the unclear case by seizing, since it seems to be not clear if a Uposatha should be held fractional, in the case of when a Bhikkhu is brought out of the territory.

Maybe this thoughts addition of use.

 _/\_
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Plauderbox

 

Johann

November 11, 2018, 01:00:38 AM
Sadhu Nyom. "May the Dhamma of the Buddha, and those following, be all beings refuge for a blessed life and beyond."
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 11, 2018, 12:31:09 AM
May the Dhamma be the greatest blessing in our lives today!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 11, 2018, 12:30:17 AM
Möge heute das Dhamma der größte Segen in unserem Leben sein!
 

Johann

November 10, 2018, 03:31:36 AM
Sadhu! "May all given the right causes so that they experiance peace, prospery, friendships in their worlds today."
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 10, 2018, 02:42:15 AM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,
hier gibt es einen Fehler. Nicht Mӧge, sondern Mӧgen.

Dhamma Grüβe an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 10, 2018, 12:58:57 AM
May peace, prosperity, Friendship prevail throughout the word today!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 10, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
Mӧge heute Frieden, Wohlstand und Freundschaft auf der ganzen Welt herrschen!
 

Johann

November 08, 2018, 01:40:21 AM
May all those having not observed the new-moon Uposata yesterday take the chance of this day.
 

Johann

November 07, 2018, 01:52:42 AM
Sadhu! "May I, may all, give the causes, act in way, that I, that all, experiance a blissfull day."
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 07, 2018, 12:36:19 AM
May today be a blissful day!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 07, 2018, 12:35:13 AM
Mӧge der heutige Tag ein glückseliger Tag sein!
 

Cheav Villa

November 06, 2018, 02:57:08 PM
Sandhu!
 

Johann

November 06, 2018, 12:41:22 AM
Sadhu. "May I, may all, use this day to give themselves causes for long lasting happines."
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 06, 2018, 12:17:34 AM
May today be a meritful and meritorious day!
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 06, 2018, 12:16:58 AM
Mӧge der heutige Tag ein verdienstvoller und verdienstlicher Tag sein!
 

Johann

November 05, 2018, 09:16:58 AM
Sadhu
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 05, 2018, 01:41:57 AM
May today be a day of insight!                                                                        
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 05, 2018, 01:41:24 AM
Mӧge der heutige Tag ein Tag der Einsicht sein!
 

Johann

November 04, 2018, 04:57:53 PM
(I, Breah Karuna, will try to send the pictures tomorrow again, because today the sending does not work)

No problem Nyom. គ្មានបញ្ហាទេញោម
 

Cheav Villa

November 04, 2018, 04:09:20 PM
ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណានឹងផ្ញេីរូបភាពនៅថ្ងៃស្អែកទៀត ព្រោះឥលូវផ្ញេីមិនទៅទេព្រះអង្គ
 

Johann

November 04, 2018, 07:58:41 AM
Sadhu
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 04, 2018, 02:45:36 AM
Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann,

I wish you a devotional day.

Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!


 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 03, 2018, 03:11:53 PM
Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann,

I thank you for your kind service.

Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!


 

Cheav Villa

November 03, 2018, 02:03:55 PM
ព្រះករុណាព្រះអង្គ
 

Johann

November 03, 2018, 02:01:26 PM
(I would like to inform Breah Ang, that I, Breah Karuna, together with my husband/family, and older Sister Sophoeun will go to Aural tomorow in the morning. May Breah Ang be told to (a)wait.)

May you have a secure and hurry-less travel and meet good fortune all along the way. May you drive slowly
 

Cheav Villa

November 03, 2018, 12:51:48 PM
សូមទូលព្រះអង្គ​ ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណានិងគ្រួសារ និងបងស្រីសុភឿននឹងទៅឱរ៉ាល់នាព្រឹកស្អែក សូមទូលនិមន្តព្រះអង្គចាំ
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 03, 2018, 12:06:08 PM
Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann,

I have put the link on the correct place. Please confirm if it is correct!

Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!
 

Johann

November 03, 2018, 10:42:58 AM
Nyom Villa.
 

Johann

November 03, 2018, 10:42:08 AM
And Atma should put it on a good place? Take your time. Nobody can do your work, merits for Nyom Mohan aside he himself.
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

November 03, 2018, 07:27:06 AM
Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann,

Since I do not have much time, I would like to submit the following link.

Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!





 

Johann

November 03, 2018, 07:25:21 AM
Nyom Mohan
 

Johann

November 02, 2018, 01:26:07 PM
Better in Topic itself, Nyom. See here .
 

Cheav Villa

November 02, 2018, 12:53:59 PM
ខ្ញុំ​កូណាមិនយល់ពីពាក្យរបស់ព្រះអង្គទេ
My sleep, my health, my many household, feelings, rememberance, projects, recognitions ... "I want to have time when I'm old and sick ... surely! សូម ព្រះអង្គ ជួ
 

Johann

November 02, 2018, 12:20:25 PM
No problems or demands at all Nyom Villa. All fine for Nyom, there where she is?
 

Cheav Villa

November 02, 2018, 12:17:21 PM
My sleep, my health, my many household, feelings, rememberance, projects, recognitions ... "I want to have time when I am old and sick ... surely! សូមព្រះអង្គជួយពន្យល់ផង
 

Cheav Villa

November 02, 2018, 12:13:05 PM
 :o ខ្ញុំកូណាមេីលច្រលំទៀតហេីយ សូមទោសព្រះអង្គម្តងទៀត  :D
 

Cheav Villa

November 02, 2018, 11:26:23 AM
ខ្ញុំកូណាសូមទោសមិនបានឆ្លីយតបព្រះអង្គ ទាន់ពេលទេីបតែងាកឃេីញ។ ខ្ញុំកូណាចង់ជួយធុងទឹក និងបេីអាចនិងបុកអណ្តូង
 

Johann

November 01, 2018, 10:05:29 AM
May all have/hold an auspicious Uposatha-Sila-Observance day.
 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 03:14:35 PM
"Oh! My sleep, my health, my many household, feelings, rememberance, projects, recognitions...", I will have time when I am old and sick... surely!
 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 03:09:31 PM
in earlier times "Buddhist" would come the day before Sila-day to the monastery and, not going to sleep, after having taken 8 precepts, do 24h merits. "good old times..."  :)
 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 01:50:41 PM
 :) lost... "Zeit hat man nicht, die muß man sich nehmen"
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

October 31, 2018, 01:43:14 PM
Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann,

I agree with you. But I need more time.

Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!
 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 01:25:52 PM
Thinking "in the future" is another lost battle... Nyom: Sieg! . Next minute you could die and what follows Nyom?
 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 01:22:24 PM
Similar to this one, maybe: [Khmer] Anreden, Begrüßung | Forms of adress, Greeting , started as layperson by now Bhante Khemakumara.
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

October 31, 2018, 01:17:50 PM
Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann,

In the future, I will try my best.

Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!
Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake




 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 01:16:37 PM
Where ever people stop to make merits, don't rejoice with it, it will not need long that revolution-desires arise, having gone out of puñña
 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 01:11:17 PM
What about teaching ways of introduction abhivadana, and how to adress monks, behave, speak in monasteries? That would be great in many aspects for Nyom.
 

Johann

October 31, 2018, 01:08:34 PM
Nyom could teach a little Sinhalese, and open a topic. At least such, by thinking and giving into the Sublime Sangha would be of great benefit for Nyom. Not ease to find possibility to make merits, yet surely devotion is also one.
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

October 31, 2018, 12:59:52 PM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

Dhamma Grüβe an Sie aus Sri Lanka!

Mohan Barathi Gnanathilake





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