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Author Topic: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha  (Read 98 times)

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Offline Johann

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 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

May the Ven. Sirs allow my person to ask in regard of the Vinaya, here in this public section (it can be moved, if wished, to another, maybe more proper area, if that here might be an obstacle).

May space be given, may it not disturbe, Ven. Sir Thanissaro, Ven. Sir Nyanadassana , Ven. Sir Hasapanno , Ven. Sir Khematto, (via Dhammatalks ), Ven. Sir. my person is not gifted able to adress personal,

while translating the generous translation of the Mahavagga , by Bhante Khematto, on the way, in the middle of the Uposatha Khandhaka , within the Saṅghuposathādippabhedaṃ — Analysis of the Saṅgha-uposatha, etc. , under the PTS § 26.10 the thought arose: "There seems to be a contadiction, if a clear 'no fractional Uposatha should be held' has general priority, like told.

The commentary, shared by Ven. Thanissaro, seemingly displaying also the practiced usual, explains for the "paradoxk here:

Borderline quorums. The Canon states that if there are four bhikkhus in the territory, the Pāṭimokkha is not to be recited by three after the purity of one has been conveyed. The Commentary to Mv.II.14.2 adds that the three should not perform a mutual purity uposatha. This leaves only one option: All four must gather — if necessary, in the dwelling of the bhikkhu who was planning to send his purity — and recite the Pāṭimokkha. Similarly, if there are two or three bhikkhus in the territory, all must attend the uposatha meeting; none of them may have their purity conveyed.

Given that unity has priority, it seems to be reasonable. Not sure if there are commentaries of older times as well in this regard.

But now, when remembering the Ñātakādiggahaṇakathā — The Discussion of Seizure by Relatives, etc. , here the commentary to the also unclear seeming rules, seems to side the frational against no Uposatha, reading the commentary by Ven. Bhante Thanissaro:

Quote from: ??
When a bhikkhu is seized. If relatives, kings (government officials), robbers, mischief-makers, or opponents of the bhikkhus happen to seize a bhikkhu in the territory on the uposatha day, bhikkhus should ask them to release him at least long enough to participate in the uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to release him long enough to give his purity. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to take him outside the territory while the Community performs its uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the Community may not meet in that territory for the uposatha that day.

If that is the conclusion, which seems seemingly in line with the translation, here it is the case that the performans (without laypeople present) seems to be more importand then unity.

Now, what in the case if it was meant, that if letting go of him was managed, after the statement, and not to seperate?

So here the answer to the question of priority in general, unity vs. Uposatha-transaction, or simply just according the (more or lesser unclear single rules, following merely commentars) rules, seems to be reasonable to raise.

Why? Because it would not only give a better general orientation, what ever the answer might be, for many Bhikkhus and Sangha, but also for other people, in regard how to handle task vs. unity.

Following my persons perception of the situation in regard of the rules given in the Uposatha, the Uposatha should best possible be hold in unity. If there are "outwardly" conditions hindering to do so, if remembering the "Danger" issue in the Vassa section, the Uposatha might not be hold. If the obstacle is merely a single Bhikkhus "outwardly" obstacle, like when looking after the insane-case, the Sangha should prepear the ways to hold it, putting a non-intentional cause of a single person aside.

In the case of the "sick" Bhikkhu, the/a Sangha would be burdened, if performing the Uposatha next to him, was meant. On the other side it's understandable if the even stronger binding of a tiny community was objected...

Maybe the well versed Ven. Sirs can, if wishing and seeing a reason and possibility to lighten this case, out of compassion, pit upright of what was possible turned over. May the Ven. Sirs draw a leitmotif throught this cases, if such is seen to be of use and possible.

Is there a general priority in regard of unity vs. duty (for own benefit), a certain borderline, or should it be best followed case by case, like delivered by the elders, as far as seen?

If the Ven. Sirs, prefere to but it in an area, where issues of the topic could be properbly easier exchanged and discussed, please let it be known. It's lesser importand to supply with a detail discussion, than to supply with an answer in unity, by the elders, so that orientation might be easy for those with good confidence and for an increase of it general, for all those willing to follow behind.

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 10:50:43 AM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Ven. Sir,

may this addition be acceptable and useful:

Just reading in "Der Patimokkha " by Ven. Nyanadassana, in regard of the (aside of two) more logical seeming case of giving purity:

D) Uposathahandlung des Ordens, der Reinheit und der Bestimmung
(Saṅgha-, parisuddhi-, adhiṭṭhān-uposatha)

I) Uposathahandlung des Ordens (Saṅghuposatha)

Für vier oder mehr Mönche:

Wenn mindestens vier Mönche in einem Kloster wohnen, betrachtet man sie als einen Orden und am Uposathatag sollen sie das Pātimokkha rezitieren, so wie es vom Erhabenen bestimmt wurde:

"Ich erlaube, ... , den Pātimokkha zu rezitieren wenn [mindestens] vier Mönche anwesend sind." (MV 124)

Das selbe gilt, wenn es mehr als vier sind. Und:

"Dort wo vier Mönche wohnen, sollen sie nicht die Erklärung der Reinheit eines [Kranken, usw.] überbringen und zu dritt das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Wenn sie es rezitieren, begehen sie ein Dukkaṭavergehen." (MV 125)

In einem solchen Fall sollen sie, wenn sie sich in einer unbegrenzten Eingrenzung (abaddha-sīma) befinden, zusammen mit den Kranken, usw. zu viert das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Nämlich, der Kranke, usw. soll zu ihren Platz kommen oder, wenn nicht möglich, sie sollen zu seiner Platz gehen. (MV 120). Wenn jedoch in ihren Kloster eine begrenzte Eingrenzungshalle (baddha-sīma) gibt, dann können sie dort die Uposathahandllung der Reinheit (pārisuddhi-uposatha) für drei Mönche durchführen (s. unten II), ohne die Reinheit des Kranken, usw. zu überbringen.
Here 4, same principle for 3 and two

Against to key in the BMC with a commentary saying the Uposata for three should categorical not performed, when Purity is given by one of four, here it is stated, that if the is a baddha-sīma, the three might do so, not really giving priourity to the similar previous suggestion, to either bring the fourth or go to the forth, or doing for three.

It seemed to be that way, for my person, right when coming in contact with this rule. Althought not knowing where the pre-requirement of a baddha-sīma, here for that case, as prerequesite, is coming from, it fits to the rule itself. E.g. priority of duty (for own purity) first, in cases of hindrances for an individual. This then would be then also fine in regard of seizing.

The urging to act in unity is, in the sick ones case, displayed in the "Giving Purity section ", shows that the purity of all has priority. If one can, burdened, give purity, fine, no need to burden each other.

Now there is still the unclear case by seizing, since it seems to be not clear if a Uposatha should be held fractional, in the case of when a Bhikkhu is brought out of the territory.

Maybe this thoughts addition of use.

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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December 01, 2017, 11:19:47 AM
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November 30, 2017, 10:49:09 AM
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November 30, 2017, 08:44:19 AM
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November 15, 2017, 10:22:52 AM
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November 10, 2017, 09:42:54 PM
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Versucht mit laptop einzuloggen, aber die Updates ziehen sich dahin...
Möge der heutige Uposatha ein Tag der Erkenntnis und des Segens sein.
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October 31, 2017, 05:36:49 AM
 :-*ehrwürdiger samana johann :-* ich hoffe, es geht ihnen gut und die dhamma-praxis schreitet vorran!


October 30, 2017, 01:48:18 AM
Nyom Sophorn.


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Danke geht allen gut. Werther Bhante hoffentlich auch ?


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Familie und Freunden geht es gut? Nyom Maria selbst wohl auf, gesund?


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Sokh chomreoun, Nyom. (Mag sukha sich für Nyom mehren). Thoamada (Dhammada - naturly, gewohnt). At mean ay pisech te (nichts besonders). Klach dukkh, klach sokh (wohl und weh wechseln sich ab). Nyom sokh sabay dea te? Sokh leumom dea te?


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October 07, 2017, 01:56:00 PM
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October 07, 2017, 02:48:39 AM
Der Tathagata tut das, wenn man ihn in seinem Dhamma sieht, und dieser, entgegen Personen, kommt auf wenn man ihn nährt, und einmal da, geht er für einen nicht mehr verloren, bleibt Tor zur Todlosigkeit.


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October 06, 2017, 11:36:31 PM
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September 28, 2017, 03:51:05 AM
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September 27, 2017, 12:17:53 PM
Nyom Sophorn, Roben mag man immer geben können. Im Monat nach dem Vassa Ende, ist es für jene Mönche, die den Vassa gehalten haben, möglich und einfacher für den Eigenbedarf Roben anzunehmen.


September 27, 2017, 07:01:23 AM
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Wie geht es Bhante heute? Haben die Tropfen geholfen?
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Gerestet: funktioniert tadellos. Nochmal alle Zugangsdaten gemailt, Nyom.


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Kana hat mit U. Chamroeun das Login mit neuem Passwort erfolglos versucht.
Daraufhin versuchten kana das über die Veränderung über E-mail, aber da erschien, dass die E-mailadresse nicht gültig war (die hatten Bhante auch an kana in der Mail bestätigt)
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Sollte email im Posteingang haben, Nyom Sophorn.


September 04, 2017, 11:41:14 AM
Kann nicht antworten auf was, Nyom Maria? Was und wo genauer?

Nyom Sophorn. Nyom Chomroeun kann kurzlich email Daten bekommen. Mal annehmend das PW auch vergessen, (abgesenhen von der Möglichkeit, link zu drücken wenn) wird Atma ein neues anlegen und ihm mailen.


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Kana hat das File runtergeladen und U. Chamroeun gegeben,  der sich um die Kprrektur annehmen möchte. Kana wird auch gern das File den anderen Schülern zum Lesen teilen. Ev. sehen mehr Augen mehr.
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Einen ausübungsreichen Vollmond-Uposatha and Gelegenheit die Mönche zu besuchen wünscht meine Person.


July 25, 2017, 03:59:03 PM
... versteht und womöglich sieht, wenn er nicht den Weg hierher

Großer Dank an alle im Hintergrund.

Mögen all diese Früchte vielfach zurückkommen und inspirieren.

Ayu vanno sukkham balam

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Herzliches Hallo an alle nach sehr langem!

Ein herzliches Dankeschön aus tiefsten Herzen an alle, die sich hier aktiv und indirekt hier beteiligen. Vor allem ein großes Sadhu an Bhante, der unvergleichliche Arbeit leistet, die kaum jemand ver


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Chom reap lea


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Vor mehr als 2500 Jahen wurde a diesem Vollmondtag das Rad des Dhammas in bewegung gesetzt. Anumodana!

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