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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha  (Read 228 times)

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Offline Johann

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 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

May the Ven. Sirs allow my person to ask in regard of the Vinaya, here in this public section (it can be moved, if wished, to another, maybe more proper area, if that here might be an obstacle).

May space be given, may it not disturbe, Ven. Sir Thanissaro, Ven. Sir Nyanadassana , Ven. Sir Hasapanno , Ven. Sir Khematto, (via Dhammatalks ), Ven. Sir. my person is not gifted able to adress personal,

while translating the generous translation of the Mahavagga , by Bhante Khematto, on the way, in the middle of the Uposatha Khandhaka , within the Saṅghuposathādippabhedaṃ — Analysis of the Saṅgha-uposatha, etc. , under the PTS § 26.10 the thought arose: "There seems to be a contadiction, if a clear 'no fractional Uposatha should be held' has general priority, like told.

The commentary, shared by Ven. Thanissaro, seemingly displaying also the practiced usual, explains for the "paradoxk here:

Borderline quorums. The Canon states that if there are four bhikkhus in the territory, the Pāṭimokkha is not to be recited by three after the purity of one has been conveyed. The Commentary to Mv.II.14.2 adds that the three should not perform a mutual purity uposatha. This leaves only one option: All four must gather — if necessary, in the dwelling of the bhikkhu who was planning to send his purity — and recite the Pāṭimokkha. Similarly, if there are two or three bhikkhus in the territory, all must attend the uposatha meeting; none of them may have their purity conveyed.

Given that unity has priority, it seems to be reasonable. Not sure if there are commentaries of older times as well in this regard.

But now, when remembering the Ñātakādiggahaṇakathā — The Discussion of Seizure by Relatives, etc. , here the commentary to the also unclear seeming rules, seems to side the frational against no Uposatha, reading the commentary by Ven. Bhante Thanissaro:

Quote from: ??
When a bhikkhu is seized. If relatives, kings (government officials), robbers, mischief-makers, or opponents of the bhikkhus happen to seize a bhikkhu in the territory on the uposatha day, bhikkhus should ask them to release him at least long enough to participate in the uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to release him long enough to give his purity. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to take him outside the territory while the Community performs its uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the Community may not meet in that territory for the uposatha that day.

If that is the conclusion, which seems seemingly in line with the translation, here it is the case that the performans (without laypeople present) seems to be more importand then unity.

Now, what in the case if it was meant, that if letting go of him was managed, after the statement, and not to seperate?

So here the answer to the question of priority in general, unity vs. Uposatha-transaction, or simply just according the (more or lesser unclear single rules, following merely commentars) rules, seems to be reasonable to raise.

Why? Because it would not only give a better general orientation, what ever the answer might be, for many Bhikkhus and Sangha, but also for other people, in regard how to handle task vs. unity.

Following my persons perception of the situation in regard of the rules given in the Uposatha, the Uposatha should best possible be hold in unity. If there are "outwardly" conditions hindering to do so, if remembering the "Danger" issue in the Vassa section, the Uposatha might not be hold. If the obstacle is merely a single Bhikkhus "outwardly" obstacle, like when looking after the insane-case, the Sangha should prepear the ways to hold it, putting a non-intentional cause of a single person aside.

In the case of the "sick" Bhikkhu, the/a Sangha would be burdened, if performing the Uposatha next to him, was meant. On the other side it's understandable if the even stronger binding of a tiny community was objected...

Maybe the well versed Ven. Sirs can, if wishing and seeing a reason and possibility to lighten this case, out of compassion, pit upright of what was possible turned over. May the Ven. Sirs draw a leitmotif throught this cases, if such is seen to be of use and possible.

Is there a general priority in regard of unity vs. duty (for own benefit), a certain borderline, or should it be best followed case by case, like delivered by the elders, as far as seen?

If the Ven. Sirs, prefere to but it in an area, where issues of the topic could be properbly easier exchanged and discussed, please let it be known. It's lesser importand to supply with a detail discussion, than to supply with an answer in unity, by the elders, so that orientation might be easy for those with good confidence and for an increase of it general, for all those willing to follow behind.

 _/\_
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 10:50:43 AM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Ven. Sir,

may this addition be acceptable and useful:

Just reading in "Der Patimokkha " by Ven. Nyanadassana, in regard of the (aside of two) more logical seeming case of giving purity:


D) Uposathahandlung des Ordens, der Reinheit und der Bestimmung
(Saṅgha-, parisuddhi-, adhiṭṭhān-uposatha)

I) Uposathahandlung des Ordens (Saṅghuposatha)

Für vier oder mehr Mönche:

Wenn mindestens vier Mönche in einem Kloster wohnen, betrachtet man sie als einen Orden und am Uposathatag sollen sie das Pātimokkha rezitieren, so wie es vom Erhabenen bestimmt wurde:

"Ich erlaube, ... , den Pātimokkha zu rezitieren wenn [mindestens] vier Mönche anwesend sind." (MV 124)

Das selbe gilt, wenn es mehr als vier sind. Und:

"Dort wo vier Mönche wohnen, sollen sie nicht die Erklärung der Reinheit eines [Kranken, usw.] überbringen und zu dritt das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Wenn sie es rezitieren, begehen sie ein Dukkaṭavergehen." (MV 125)


In einem solchen Fall sollen sie, wenn sie sich in einer unbegrenzten Eingrenzung (abaddha-sīma) befinden, zusammen mit den Kranken, usw. zu viert das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Nämlich, der Kranke, usw. soll zu ihren Platz kommen oder, wenn nicht möglich, sie sollen zu seiner Platz gehen. (MV 120). Wenn jedoch in ihren Kloster eine begrenzte Eingrenzungshalle (baddha-sīma) gibt, dann können sie dort die Uposathahandllung der Reinheit (pārisuddhi-uposatha) für drei Mönche durchführen (s. unten II), ohne die Reinheit des Kranken, usw. zu überbringen.
Here 4, same principle for 3 and two

Against to key in the BMC with a commentary saying the Uposata for three should categorical not performed, when Purity is given by one of four, here it is stated, that if the is a baddha-sīma, the three might do so, not really giving priourity to the similar previous suggestion, to either bring the fourth or go to the forth, or doing for three.

It seemed to be that way, for my person, right when coming in contact with this rule. Althought not knowing where the pre-requirement of a baddha-sīma, here for that case, as prerequesite, is coming from, it fits to the rule itself. E.g. priority of duty (for own purity) first, in cases of hindrances for an individual. This then would be then also fine in regard of seizing.

The urging to act in unity is, in the sick ones case, displayed in the "Giving Purity section ", shows that the purity of all has priority. If one can, burdened, give purity, fine, no need to burden each other.

Now there is still the unclear case by seizing, since it seems to be not clear if a Uposatha should be held fractional, in the case of when a Bhikkhu is brought out of the territory.

Maybe this thoughts addition of use.

 _/\_
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Johann

May 22, 2018, 10:11:37 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 22, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
einen verdienstvollen uposatha wünsche ich allen  :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

May 19, 2018, 03:07:57 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

ehrwürdiger bhante

 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 19, 2018, 03:05:38 PM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 01:24:42 PM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

May 14, 2018, 01:23:37 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha

 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 14, 2018, 08:34:09 AM
Schüsse von Wilderern am Tag sind ja nicht ungewöhnlich, doch aus mehreren Richtungen und automatischen Waffen doch bisher hier nicht üblich gewesen. Möge niemand anderen Schaden zufügen und sich mit Abstehen davon jeder beschützen.
 

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May 14, 2018, 01:06:38 AM
It's not an accident that you came here and it will be not an accident whether one stays, comes back or leaves for another becoming or goes beyond.
 

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May 13, 2018, 06:51:53 AM
Mag da keiner seine Mutter an dem Tag vergessen zu ehren.
 

Johann

May 11, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
Nyom Marcel.

Schlangentag und -nacht heute. Wem mag man was vergönnen? Der Schlange? Den Mäusen? Metta & Samvega oder umgekehrt? Mal angstlos Hunger, mal Angst, mal Maus, mal Schlange, essen, gegessen, verfolgen, gejagt...
 

Marcel

May 11, 2018, 11:57:36 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
ehrwürdiger bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 10, 2018, 04:00:02 PM
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Marcel

May 09, 2018, 03:08:42 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

May 09, 2018, 07:01:42 AM
Nyom Matthew.
 

Johann

May 06, 2018, 11:49:06 PM
Chamreoun bo, Moritz
 

Moritz

May 06, 2018, 05:12:29 AM
Vandami Bhante _/\_
Einen angenehmen Tag. _/\_
 

Johann

May 04, 2018, 12:18:14 PM
...And what is lack of food for the arising of unarisen sloth & drowsiness, or for the growth & increase of sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen? There is the potential for effort, the potential for exertion, the potential for striving. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is lack
 

Johann

May 04, 2018, 12:14:44 PM
...“Und was ist das Fehlen von Nahrung für unaufgekommene Faulheit und Trägheit, oder für das Wachsen und Mehren von Faulheit unf Trägheit, wenn einmal aufgekommen? Da ist das Vermögen für Anstrengung, das Vermögen für Ausübung, das Vermögen für Streben. Dafür passende Aufmerk
 

Sophorn

April 30, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
Sadhu.  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

April 30, 2018, 01:04:45 AM
Ein hingabevolles Visakha-Fest, allen die es heute begehen, oder nochmal.


A devoted Visakha-fest for all who conduct it today, or again.[/en]
 

Johann

April 29, 2018, 08:42:23 AM
Sadhu!
 

Sophorn

April 29, 2018, 05:54:57 AM
Viel Segen und Einsicht heute an Vesakh Bochea!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

April 29, 2018, 02:08:23 AM
Heute oder morgen gedenkt und erfreut man sich an Buddhas Geburt, Erwachen und letztes Dahinscheinden.

_/\_

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
 

Marcel

April 28, 2018, 02:58:36 PM
 :-* Ehrwürdiger Bhante  :-*
 

Johann

April 28, 2018, 02:55:18 PM
Nyom Marcel.
 

Johann

April 28, 2018, 12:44:32 PM
Geizhals :) (und nach dem Dhamma gegeben, wird so und so nichts angenommen.

Sadhu! Und mudita!

Nyom Moritz.

Visitor

April 28, 2018, 10:27:19 AM
Möge es euch allen gut gehen! Danke für Alles. Ich bin für ewig verschuldet. Komme zurück wenn ich was zu geben habe.
 

Moritz

April 28, 2018, 07:48:45 AM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Marcel

April 25, 2018, 02:20:08 PM
 :-* sadhu, möge es dem ehrwürdigen bhante johann schnell wieder bessergehen :-*
 

Johann

April 25, 2018, 02:09:45 PM
Körper. Besser, Atma würde vor einigen Tagen mit medizin versorgt und be-iniziert. Ein paar Tage noch bis NW der Med. wohl weg ist.
 

Marcel

April 25, 2018, 02:02:51 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

April 25, 2018, 02:00:11 PM
Atma ist/übt am Samma-vayamieren/-mimieren. Fegen, sozusagen.
 

Marcel

April 25, 2018, 01:58:03 PM
 :-* anumodana ehrwürdiger bhante johann ich werder darauf achten :-* wie geht es ihnen mit der malaria-erkankung?  :-*
 

Johann

April 25, 2018, 01:52:35 PM
Na gerade auf guten Zuständen SOLLTE man, zum Zwecke der wahren Sicherheit aufbauen, sie entwickeln und festigen, Nyom Marcel.
 

Marcel

April 25, 2018, 01:37:13 PM
 :-* "im moment" geht es mir gut! aber da kann ich wirklich nicht drauf bauen :-* wie ist das wohlbefinden des ehrwürdigen bhante Johann?  :-*
 

Johann

April 25, 2018, 01:25:09 PM
Wie geht es Nyom Marcel?
 

Marcel

April 25, 2018, 01:12:57 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann  :-*
 

Johann

April 25, 2018, 01:11:36 PM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

April 22, 2018, 09:11:17 AM
Sadhu!
 

Sophorn

April 22, 2018, 08:40:14 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
May every being be happy and free from dukkha.
May many renew their vows in silas today.   :-* :-* :-*
 

Danilo

April 15, 2018, 12:43:25 AM
Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

April 15, 2018, 12:38:56 AM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Johann

April 12, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
Moritz
 

Moritz

April 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 07:19:18 PM
Hello.
 

Johann

April 10, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Nyom. (Sideboad ist stets zugeklappt... tech. Probl.) 3:00 ist auch schon guten Tag.
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Good day (night here)
_/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

April 09, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Take your time Nyom Danilo and watch the breath to stay best calm for best benefit. A lot of chances to get ride of many ols burdens.
 

Danilo

April 08, 2018, 06:24:57 PM
_/\_

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