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Author Topic: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha  (Read 350 times)

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Offline Johann

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 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

May the Ven. Sirs allow my person to ask in regard of the Vinaya, here in this public section (it can be moved, if wished, to another, maybe more proper area, if that here might be an obstacle).

May space be given, may it not disturbe, Ven. Sir Thanissaro, Ven. Sir Nyanadassana , Ven. Sir Hasapanno , Ven. Sir Khematto, (via Dhammatalks ), Ven. Sir. my person is not gifted able to adress personal,

while translating the generous translation of the Mahavagga , by Bhante Khematto, on the way, in the middle of the Uposatha Khandhaka , within the Saṅghuposathādippabhedaṃ — Analysis of the Saṅgha-uposatha, etc. , under the PTS § 26.10 the thought arose: "There seems to be a contadiction, if a clear 'no fractional Uposatha should be held' has general priority, like told.

The commentary, shared by Ven. Thanissaro, seemingly displaying also the practiced usual, explains for the "paradoxk here:

Borderline quorums. The Canon states that if there are four bhikkhus in the territory, the Pāṭimokkha is not to be recited by three after the purity of one has been conveyed. The Commentary to Mv.II.14.2 adds that the three should not perform a mutual purity uposatha. This leaves only one option: All four must gather — if necessary, in the dwelling of the bhikkhu who was planning to send his purity — and recite the Pāṭimokkha. Similarly, if there are two or three bhikkhus in the territory, all must attend the uposatha meeting; none of them may have their purity conveyed.

Given that unity has priority, it seems to be reasonable. Not sure if there are commentaries of older times as well in this regard.

But now, when remembering the Ñātakādiggahaṇakathā — The Discussion of Seizure by Relatives, etc. , here the commentary to the also unclear seeming rules, seems to side the frational against no Uposatha, reading the commentary by Ven. Bhante Thanissaro:

Quote from: ??
When a bhikkhu is seized. If relatives, kings (government officials), robbers, mischief-makers, or opponents of the bhikkhus happen to seize a bhikkhu in the territory on the uposatha day, bhikkhus should ask them to release him at least long enough to participate in the uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to release him long enough to give his purity. If they do, well and good. If not, the bhikkhus should ask them to take him outside the territory while the Community performs its uposatha. If they do, well and good. If not, the Community may not meet in that territory for the uposatha that day.

If that is the conclusion, which seems seemingly in line with the translation, here it is the case that the performans (without laypeople present) seems to be more importand then unity.

Now, what in the case if it was meant, that if letting go of him was managed, after the statement, and not to seperate?

So here the answer to the question of priority in general, unity vs. Uposatha-transaction, or simply just according the (more or lesser unclear single rules, following merely commentars) rules, seems to be reasonable to raise.

Why? Because it would not only give a better general orientation, what ever the answer might be, for many Bhikkhus and Sangha, but also for other people, in regard how to handle task vs. unity.

Following my persons perception of the situation in regard of the rules given in the Uposatha, the Uposatha should best possible be hold in unity. If there are "outwardly" conditions hindering to do so, if remembering the "Danger" issue in the Vassa section, the Uposatha might not be hold. If the obstacle is merely a single Bhikkhus "outwardly" obstacle, like when looking after the insane-case, the Sangha should prepear the ways to hold it, putting a non-intentional cause of a single person aside.

In the case of the "sick" Bhikkhu, the/a Sangha would be burdened, if performing the Uposatha next to him, was meant. On the other side it's understandable if the even stronger binding of a tiny community was objected...

Maybe the well versed Ven. Sirs can, if wishing and seeing a reason and possibility to lighten this case, out of compassion, pit upright of what was possible turned over. May the Ven. Sirs draw a leitmotif throught this cases, if such is seen to be of use and possible.

Is there a general priority in regard of unity vs. duty (for own benefit), a certain borderline, or should it be best followed case by case, like delivered by the elders, as far as seen?

If the Ven. Sirs, prefere to but it in an area, where issues of the topic could be properbly easier exchanged and discussed, please let it be known. It's lesser importand to supply with a detail discussion, than to supply with an answer in unity, by the elders, so that orientation might be easy for those with good confidence and for an increase of it general, for all those willing to follow behind.

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: [Q&A] Unity vs. Duty (for own deliverance) in cases of the Uposatha
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 10:50:43 AM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Ven. Sir,

may this addition be acceptable and useful:

Just reading in "Der Patimokkha " by Ven. Nyanadassana, in regard of the (aside of two) more logical seeming case of giving purity:

D) Uposathahandlung des Ordens, der Reinheit und der Bestimmung
(Saṅgha-, parisuddhi-, adhiṭṭhān-uposatha)

I) Uposathahandlung des Ordens (Saṅghuposatha)

Für vier oder mehr Mönche:

Wenn mindestens vier Mönche in einem Kloster wohnen, betrachtet man sie als einen Orden und am Uposathatag sollen sie das Pātimokkha rezitieren, so wie es vom Erhabenen bestimmt wurde:

"Ich erlaube, ... , den Pātimokkha zu rezitieren wenn [mindestens] vier Mönche anwesend sind." (MV 124)

Das selbe gilt, wenn es mehr als vier sind. Und:

"Dort wo vier Mönche wohnen, sollen sie nicht die Erklärung der Reinheit eines [Kranken, usw.] überbringen und zu dritt das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Wenn sie es rezitieren, begehen sie ein Dukkaṭavergehen." (MV 125)

In einem solchen Fall sollen sie, wenn sie sich in einer unbegrenzten Eingrenzung (abaddha-sīma) befinden, zusammen mit den Kranken, usw. zu viert das Pātimokkha rezitieren. Nämlich, der Kranke, usw. soll zu ihren Platz kommen oder, wenn nicht möglich, sie sollen zu seiner Platz gehen. (MV 120). Wenn jedoch in ihren Kloster eine begrenzte Eingrenzungshalle (baddha-sīma) gibt, dann können sie dort die Uposathahandllung der Reinheit (pārisuddhi-uposatha) für drei Mönche durchführen (s. unten II), ohne die Reinheit des Kranken, usw. zu überbringen.
Here 4, same principle for 3 and two

Against to key in the BMC with a commentary saying the Uposata for three should categorical not performed, when Purity is given by one of four, here it is stated, that if the is a baddha-sīma, the three might do so, not really giving priourity to the similar previous suggestion, to either bring the fourth or go to the forth, or doing for three.

It seemed to be that way, for my person, right when coming in contact with this rule. Althought not knowing where the pre-requirement of a baddha-sīma, here for that case, as prerequesite, is coming from, it fits to the rule itself. E.g. priority of duty (for own purity) first, in cases of hindrances for an individual. This then would be then also fine in regard of seizing.

The urging to act in unity is, in the sick ones case, displayed in the "Giving Purity section ", shows that the purity of all has priority. If one can, burdened, give purity, fine, no need to burden each other.

Now there is still the unclear case by seizing, since it seems to be not clear if a Uposatha should be held fractional, in the case of when a Bhikkhu is brought out of the territory.

Maybe this thoughts addition of use.

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann





Today at 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.


October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.


October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .


October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita


October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM


October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.


October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici


October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.


October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM


October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.


October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.


October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.


October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.


October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West


October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people


October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.


October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.


October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.


October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.


October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.


October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?


October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."


October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.


October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.


October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.


October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.


October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...


October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???


October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.


October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!


October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.


October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.


October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.


October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.


October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!


October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM


October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli


October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.


October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?


October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay


October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!


October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?


October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.


October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.


October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob


October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.


October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.


October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.


October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "


October 04, 2018, 09:21:35 AM
... doing so based on gratitude without just trading in giving, or out of duty in a relation one resits, one is able to get not only to the borders, but into Noble ones domain.

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