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Author Topic: Definitions of alajji and lajji bhikkhus (assossiate knowingly with offenders)  (Read 252 times)

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Offline Johann

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Definitions of alajji and lajji bhikkhus

Dear all,
after a discussion with one of the most strict and stern teachers of vinaya I have met so far I would like to request some help in form of pointing out some definitions and giving some explanations. On the basis of a passage which he read in Thai (it was translated for me) he maintained that it is an offense for a bhikkhu to simply stay with unconscientious (on the word alajji the text was based upon) bhikkhus within the same monastery boundaries, however far-reaching the circumference might be. He argued that any bhikkhu who has fallen into any small offense, which he does not mend, is considered alajji and ground for an offense for any other bhikkhu who stays with him. Now these questions bother me at the moment regarding this:

Where is his mentioned passage to be found in Paali or English (if at all)?
What are the definitions of lajji and alajji regarding bhikkhus? Do they match the mentioned case or are they generally different?
He also mentioned that it is the responsibility of conscientious bhikkhus to point out the offenses of his co-resident bhikkhus, if he neglects it he would incur an offense himself. I see that there is Paacittiya 64 which stipulates so but argued that in the no-offense clause we find the following exemptions:

There is no offence if he does not tell, thinking: “There will come to be quarrel or dispute or strife or contention for the Order”; if he does not tell, thinking: “There will come to be a schism in the Order or dissension in the Order”; if he does not tell, thinking: “This one, harsh, rough, will be an obstacle to life or to the Brahma-life”; if he does not tell, not seeing other suitable monks; if he does not tell (though) not desiring to hide (him); if he does not tell, thinking: “It will be evident from his own action”; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer.


So, to my mind, if a bhikkhu doesn’t say something because he doesn’t wish the whole day finding faults and talking to other monks (in Pa Auk Mawlamyine, just to give a random example, this would be a full-time job with so many hundreds of monks) that would be no offense because he doesn’t want to hide, is that also your understanding? He said there is somewhere another passage which says one has to confront issues regardlessly but he could not find it? Are you aware of any?

Thank you so much for the assistance!
Mettaa

Yes, Venerable Sir. Blessed if meeting such teacher.

But it's neither correct to place such simply in a group, nor does it make sense to ask those full of offenses.

So it's good to clean that and seek for good places to dwell to get not to much infected. Or is it thought that admitting offenses to those having fallen into the same is a means?

It would be good if the Venerables, having fallen into this offens, make amends.

And, telling lay people about an offense of another Bhikkhu is also an offense... "in Pa Auk Mawlamyine, just to give a random example, this would be a full-time job with so many hundreds of monks" ... if not given to do by the Sangha.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:43:01 PM by Johann »
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Offline Johann

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To try to give here a possible graspable solution as well:

Deriving from the intentional aspect and a pattern maybe best visible in The Sets of Fifteen Area on Uposatha .

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless comunity, but does not recognize them as such, dwells and performes the Uposatha, in such a case there might be no transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless community, not proven yet he has doubt, dwells and performes the Uposatha nevertheless without claryfication: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless community, not proven yet he has fear, dwells and performes the Uposatha nevertheless without clarifycation: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careless Bhikkhus, in a careless community, knowingly he dwells and performes the Uposatha nevertheless: in such a case there might be a transgression of strong wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a careful community, not proven yet he has doubt, does not dwell and performes the Uposatha with them, without claryfication: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a careful community, not proven yet he has fear, does not dwell and performes the Uposatha with them, without claryfication: in such a case there might be a transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.

There might be the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a careful community, knowingly, intending torward splitt or out of interest to hide his ways, he does not dwell and performes the Uposatha with them: in such a case there might be a transgression of strong wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.


There is no duty in regard of investigation if there is no reason for one. In cases where doubt or fear arises, seeking clarification is required to be free of mental burdens and free of faults. In cases where one acts clearly (deliberated) against ones knowledge in relation of what is proper, such should be seen as strong wrongdoing. There might be cases where the kammic impact out of current lack of bad conscious, is not assumeable. In those cases it is of cause difficult and depents on possible realisation or trust in supportive other helpers pointing out such. If fully relaying here on them, one might be back to the first case here or the "luckily" perfect one:

There is the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a carefull community, he dwells there without investigations, with no reasons for doubt or fear, and performs the Uposatha with them: in such a case there might be not transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.


And the perfect, in all aspects, one, the knowingly:

There is the case where a Bhikkhu dwells with careful Bhikkhus, in a carefull community, he dwells there having investigated it, with no reasons for doubt or fear, and performs the Uposatha with them: in such a case there is doubtless no transgression of wrongdoing, as far as my person may see.


If wrong investigated, it runs back to the first case, which has no transgression either.

My person hopes that this quick, merely "self-produced" investigation here might be useful to possible formulate it in more pleasing words and unity.

There perfect case also refects the reason for allowing to prove and investigate for example in cases of precepter or teacher, cases of certain giving into dependency.

It also shows that it is of course not a general duty to "play police and investigator" but not neglect duties in regard of ones progress and also not certain duties to put into maintaining (possible "cleaning") community, -ties as well as far as possible.

At least the Vinaya, as far as known and formost seen, gives ways to dwell alone if such as an equal or better companion is not traced. Here is actually the only reasonable place for dwelling like a rhinoceros for one not an Arahat yet.

Even such as a pure desciple was encouraged to pay honor and respect for the Uposatha (if dwelling with gained Dhamma alone).

That being the reason why it is not so easy as one might have thought, to find ones proper community and it's out of that reason, because there are many careless and many who do not see their duties in certain cases, that it grows more and more difficult when the Bhikkhus turn into "common" sense thought, commonal-individualism and even let them encourage by Bhikkunis or femal tending flows and "leadership" through improper attachment to carelessness...

Now keeping in mind the rule of not doing confession with those of equal offence, one might understand the urgency here as it grows fast, very fast, that possibilities run out and no more Uposatha can be held with real effective effect and in line within very short time.

Since it might fill the grap even better, here a partical citation of a Sutta, yet not given and shared in line of Dhamma rendered in common pleasant form:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

‘‘Katamañca , bhikkhave, saṅgāhabalaṃ? Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, saṅgahavatthūni – dānaṃ, peyyavajjaṃ, atthacariyā, samānattatā. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, dānānaṃ yadidaṃ dhammadānaṃ. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, peyyavajjānaṃ yadidaṃ atthikassa ohitasotassa punappunaṃ dhammaṃ deseti. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, atthacariyānaṃ yadidaṃ assaddhaṃ saddhāsampadāya samādapeti niveseti patiṭṭhāpeti, dussīlaṃ sīlasampadāya… pe… macchariṃ cāgasampadāya…pe… duppaññaṃ paññāsampadāya samādapeti niveseti patiṭṭhāpeti. Etadaggaṃ, bhikkhave, samānattatānaṃ yadidaṃ sotāpanno sotāpannassa samānatto, sakadāgāmī sakadāgāmissa samānatto, anāgāmī anāgāmissa samānatto, arahā arahato samānatto. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, saṅgāhabalaṃ. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, cattāri balāni.

And again here, might all seems nice on the surface, as long as the general tendency of the leader Sujato Bhikkhu  and his ship, and the assembling community around does not turn around 180 degrees, ones does good to avoid this place, not increasing faith in those without and possible weaken faith in those who had gained.

And it's like always mentioned for the benefit of each individual and Saṅghaṃ , since that should be the driving side-effect gift from proper conduct torward Nibbana, instead for the world, for the world. The gift of freedom an a possibility for later generations in that way.

As it might be that one might be not able to leave ones bounds: if serious willing to use D&D, it would be good if installing certain membership restricted forums like suggested here, as a basis work to do, if the frame even allows such effort, since it might be not clear how the environment has be gained... difficult... your work to do and burdens till faith might arise. Just "hints"... may one decide wisely out of which intend and for with aim they are still made.
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Offline Johann

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And now, let it be viewed from the next side:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.II.27.13) “Monks, there is the case where the entire Saṅgha in a certain residence has fallen into an offense common to one another.

“They don’t know the name or class of the offense.

“Another monk arrives there: learned, erudite, one who has memorized the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Mātikā. He is wise, experienced, astute, conscientious, scrupulous, desirous of training.

“A certain monk goes to that monk and, on arrival, says to him, ‘Friend, one who does such-and-such: What’s the name of the offense that he falls into?’

(Mv.II.27.14) “(The learned monk) says, ‘Friend, one who does such-and-such falls into the offense of this name. Friend, you have fallen into the offense of this name. Make amends for the offense.’

“He says, ‘Friend, I haven’t fallen into this offense alone. This entire Saṅgha has fallen into this offense.’

“(The learned monk) says, ‘Friend, what does it matter to you, whether another has fallen (into that offense) or not? Please, friend, rise up out of your own offense!’

(Mv.II.27.15) “So the monk, making amends for that offense in line with that (visiting) monk’s advice, goes to the monks and, on arrival, says to them, ‘Friends, they say that one who does such-and-such falls into the offense of this name. Friends, you have fallen into the offense of this name. Make amends for the offense.’

“If those monks make amends for the offense in line with that (visiting) monk’s advice, well and good. If they don’t make amends, then that monk doesn’t have to criticize the monks if he doesn’t want to.”

Does that "that monk doesn’t have to criticize the monks if he doesn’t want to" fit into the first told? If, how and why?

Aside of the allowings given in Mv II 15: Adhammakammapaṭikkosanādi — Protesting a Non-Dhamma Transaction, etc. and its pattern, considering a certain differency betweens allowing as a "polite" urging to do and allowing as a matter of making certain cases handle-able.

There are of cause cases where one might be certain caught and faces danger to get a beat:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Now on that occasion ... well-behaved monks protested when a non-Dhamma transaction was being performed by some Group-of-six monks. The Group-of-six monks became angered and unreasonable, and threatened them with a beating.

So here in this area the certain ways of approaching might be found:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, I allow four or five to protest, two or three to voice an opinion, and one to determine, ‘This is not agreeable to me.’”
Quote from: Mv.II.16.5

And what does one think if need to determine on and on, for a while: might such be of ones gain or shouldn't he not better search for other ways?

Bhikkhus, my person tells you: it's for no use, it's for nobodies benefit, if a Bhikkhu, now not complete, goes out and even founds such as a Sangha in a foreign area, even apart, splitt and without real reverence to his ancestors, it's an act of fools to let wordlings run around and possible use then for defilet interest.

As far as visible for my person, there might be very very less communities in far lands which could be estimated as for any use, either for the individuals nor for others. And this here is not the only reason but given that dwelling uninvited at large, Bhikkhus might have less possibilities but simply seek on and on for compromises out of their attachments to certain impossible objectives.
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Offline Johann

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If one ever has dwelled under lajji people, even if not really knowing Pali, but simply obsere the use and pattern of the word alajji, it's easy to find a connection where the word "allergy" arrives from, since a lajji person would naturally have an allergy breaking out if dwelling with alajji people, not to speak about Bhikkhus in that range.

My person has to "smile" since the Ven. fellow, often used this word has also physical problems and bodily allergy appearances. Yet, on searching outwardly, the plant called "Vassa" ("accidentally...") is natural medicine against pollen allergy.

He uses to chance the places very often, out of inwardly and outwardly burdens but so far not reallt hypothetical, just to be able to maintain the needed welbeing to walk on in progress.

From reasons he progresses not as Bhikkhu, out of respect torward Vinaya.
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Sophorn

November 10, 2017, 09:42:54 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
Versucht mit laptop einzuloggen, aber die Updates ziehen sich dahin...
Möge der heutige Uposatha ein Tag der Erkenntnis und des Segens sein.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Marcel

October 31, 2017, 05:36:49 AM
 :-*ehrwürdiger samana johann :-* ich hoffe, es geht ihnen gut und die dhamma-praxis schreitet vorran!
 

Johann

October 30, 2017, 01:48:18 AM
Nyom Sophorn.

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