Recent Topics

[January 15, 2019, 07:36:36 PM]

[January 15, 2019, 04:55:09 PM]

[January 15, 2019, 04:44:08 PM]

[January 15, 2019, 02:37:17 PM]

[January 15, 2019, 12:49:19 PM]

[January 15, 2019, 11:29:04 AM]

[January 15, 2019, 11:02:20 AM]

[January 15, 2019, 07:08:11 AM]

[January 15, 2019, 07:07:38 AM]

[January 15, 2019, 06:21:45 AM]

[January 15, 2019, 03:15:41 AM]

[January 14, 2019, 04:05:27 PM]

[January 14, 2019, 02:04:52 PM]

[January 14, 2019, 12:39:11 PM]

[January 14, 2019, 09:39:58 AM]

[January 14, 2019, 06:50:00 AM]

[January 14, 2019, 04:40:10 AM]

[January 13, 2019, 03:28:12 PM]

[January 13, 2019, 02:26:34 PM]

[January 13, 2019, 02:24:47 PM]

[January 13, 2019, 07:56:38 AM]

[January 12, 2019, 04:31:20 PM]

[January 12, 2019, 02:41:15 PM]

[January 12, 2019, 12:23:11 PM]

[January 12, 2019, 06:08:45 AM]

[January 12, 2019, 04:29:52 AM]

[January 11, 2019, 02:55:53 PM]

[January 11, 2019, 02:30:39 PM]

[January 11, 2019, 01:13:14 AM]

[January 11, 2019, 12:09:49 AM]

[January 09, 2019, 09:03:22 PM]

[January 09, 2019, 11:49:14 AM]

[January 09, 2019, 06:44:31 AM]

[January 09, 2019, 05:25:47 AM]

[January 09, 2019, 05:15:45 AM]

[January 08, 2019, 01:39:13 PM]

[January 08, 2019, 11:45:52 AM]

[January 08, 2019, 08:21:16 AM]

[January 08, 2019, 08:06:36 AM]

[January 08, 2019, 04:52:54 AM]

Talkbox

2019 Jan 15 19:41:08
Khemakumara: Nyom Moritz

2019 Jan 15 19:38:38
Moritz: Vandami Bhante (Khemakumara) _/\_

2019 Jan 15 17:13:16
Johann: Nyom Puthy, maybe this helps: ការរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុង website .

2019 Jan 15 16:10:29
Ieng Puthy: ព្រះអង្គករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុលាសិនហេីយ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:07:58
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាគ្រាន់តែចូលអាន ករុណាមិនទាន់យល់ពីរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុងwebsite នៅឡេីយទេ ព្រះអង្គ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:00:58
Johann: How ever one feels inspired, has joy, likes to give into.  How can I use the forum purposefully, for myself, as well as for others?

2019 Jan 15 15:57:55
Johann: No need to use all possibilities for merits for one alone but good to invite others to join and become more independend till free.

2019 Jan 15 15:04:39
Johann: no requirement to do all, merits step by step. "The path to nibbana is hard", they say, and don't do even little steps, Nyom. As inspired, its at least a working and concentration camp, Devas delight in creation, Devas having contr. over the creation of others.

2019 Jan 15 14:53:43
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គការបកប្រែមកជាខ្មែរ  មានខុសច្រើនណាស់  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 14:49:16
Khemakumara: leng Puthy

2019 Jan 15 14:48:29
Khemakumara: Nyom leng Pitts

2019 Jan 15 14:45:35
Johann: There is a lot of new for many. If the Nyom Ladies like to help in translating here and there a little, it might be easier for khmer-speaking monks to get informed well.

2019 Jan 15 14:25:23
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 13:33:34
Khemakumara: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 13:32:47
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 13:27:53
Johann: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 10:46:40
Johann: But a topic can be opened everywhere and can then be moved.

2019 Jan 15 10:45:27
Johann: There is also a Link to direct Requests for Teachings - link, so things get not lost.

2019 Jan 15 10:44:12
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាព្រះអង្គ🙏🏻អរព្រះគុុណ ព្រះអង្គ

2019 Jan 15 10:42:55
Johann: Good place is surely at  Dhammatalks - (dhamma desanā)

2019 Jan 15 10:35:06
Johann: Talkbox is not proper, just for greating and small-talk

2019 Jan 15 10:24:47
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ព្រះអង្គ តេីមានធម៌អ្វីដែលអាចកំចាត់ធម៌លោភៈល្អិតនៅក្នុងចិត្តបានដែរឬទេ ?ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 15 10:21:37
Johann: Just open a new topic best, Nyom Puthy (requires some bhava-chanda)

2019 Jan 15 10:17:22
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 15 10:07:10
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe

2019 Jan 15 10:01:15
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គមុនី! ករុណាមានសំណួរ១អំពី អនុស្ស័យកិលេសមាន៧ គឺ 1-កាមរាគានុស្ស័យ 2-ភវនុស្ស័យ3

2019 Jan 15 09:31:36
Cheav Villa:  :)  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:27:54
Chanroth: ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុន្នី ពីរអាស្រមថ្មទូក_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:21:46
Chanroth: បាតជំរាបសួរបងស្រី ខ្ញុំមិនទាន់បានធ្វេីនៅឡេីយទេ ពីព្រោះខ្ញុំឈឺ បានធូហេីយ តែមិនទាន់បាត់ថ្លោះករនៅឡេីយ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 08:57:49
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុនី  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 07:34:19
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 05:57:47
Cheav Villa: តើពូកំពុងជួយការងារលោកតាមែនទេ?តើនៅអាស្រមមានកង្វះខាតអ្វីទេនៅពេលនេះ

2019 Jan 15 05:54:51
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរពូចាន់រ័ត្ន _/\_

2019 Jan 15 01:12:12
Johann: And "we" wouldn't always know or find out but need to relay on one who know

2019 Jan 15 01:06:48
Johann: There are two kinds of sadness and happiness, of which one of each is conductive for liberation, one not.

2019 Jan 15 01:02:24
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we always be able to find out for ourselves how much attachment we accumulate, and whether this brings us happiness or sorrow! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 15 01:00:52
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir immer  selbst herausfinden kӧnnen, wie viel Anhaftung wir anhäufen und ob  diese Anhaftung uns die Frӧhlichkeit oder  die Traurigkeit bringt! Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 13:52:41
Johann: Nyom Puthy. May you all have good Dhamma conversations with each other, don't be shy on that. Atma will go to rest.

2019 Jan 14 13:48:00
Johann: ញោម ចាន់រ័ត្ន

2019 Jan 14 12:49:01
Cheav Villa: អរព្រះគុណព្រះអង្គ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 12:36:20
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we possess the causes of blissfulness always! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 12:35:18
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mӧgen wir immer die Ursachen der Glückseligkeit besitzen! Dhamma Grüβe  aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 10:20:32
Johann: "នាងវិសាខា ក្រាបបង្គំទូលថា ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំម្ចាស់រក្សាឧបោសថៈព្រះអង្គ។"...

2019 Jan 14 09:49:40
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 06:59:34
Cheav Villa: Jain-Upossathaកូណាមុិនទាន់យល់ន័យនៃពាក្យនេះទេ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 05:12:41
Johann: "មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន"... មែន(sense)ទុក្ខឬមិន? Where?

2019 Jan 14 04:57:55
Johann: Buddha and Savaka do not teach Jain-Uposatha: អ្នកណា​មាទុក្ខ? , Sadhu

2019 Jan 14 04:50:21
Johann: ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល! មានទេមិនមាន ... ការនិយាយអំពីសត្វ។ ធម៌ទាំងអស់មានមូលហេតុ ដូច្នេះ: រឿងដំបូងនៅលើកដំបូង!

2019 Jan 14 04:21:59
Cheav Villa: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន ជាអនត្តាធម៌ ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល  _/\_

2019 Jan 14 04:16:00
Johann: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួនទេ = មិនមែនទុក្ខទេ

2019 Jan 14 04:06:00
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 14 04:05:16
Johann: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា !

2019 Jan 14 02:18:42
Chanroth: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា

2019 Jan 13 15:16:49
Johann: First things first , very recommended, hearing the Uposatha of the Jains from the Villages all the time here.

2019 Jan 13 15:05:49
Johann: again and again coming back to Dhamma, Punja? Habits become destinies.

2019 Jan 13 14:53:42
Johann: coming back seems to be niccaŋ

2019 Jan 13 14:40:52
Cheav Villa: អនិច្ចំ *sgift*

2019 Jan 13 14:29:43
Ieng Puthy:  Chom reap leah , good bye🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:18:50
Moritz: Chom reap leah, good bye _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:11:50
Ieng Puthy: Hello Master Morithz🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:07:24
Moritz: Hello Ieng Puthy _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:07:16
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jan 13 13:54:34
Ieng Puthy: ជំរាបសួរ បងចាន់រ័ត្ន Bong Chanroth 🙏🏼សូមបងឆាប់បានជាសះស្បេីយ

2019 Jan 13 13:49:26
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Jan 13 09:17:06
Chanroth: ខ្ញំបានជាហើយ តែវេទនាបានកើតឡើងចំពោះខ្ញុំ បញ្ហាថ្លោះកករ :-\

2019 Jan 13 07:49:41
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរពូចាន់រ័ត្ន ពូបានធូរស្បើយហើយមើលទៅ :D _/\_

2019 Jan 13 07:48:35
Cheav Villa: Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 13 07:47:10
Johann: May all spent a meritful Siladay today or tomorrow.

2019 Jan 13 05:07:45
Chanroth: ជំរាបសួរបងស្រី វីឡាខ្ញុំបាទchanroth _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 13 00:05:39
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាព្រះអង្គ Bhante 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 12 09:04:48
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 11 13:49:09
Cheav Villa: Thank you Bang Thy. Good come in and out  :D _/\_

2019 Jan 11 13:41:49
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jan 11 13:13:35
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻ជំរាបសួរបងប្អូនធម្មមិត្តទាំងអស់គ្នា chumreap sour Dhamma friends !  May all have a good evening

2019 Jan 11 13:04:15
Ieng Puthy: ករុណា ព្រះអង្គ Bhante 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 09 17:17:52
Cheav Villa: Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 09 16:12:53
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Jan 09 05:06:55
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 09 00:43:24
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jan 08 16:15:17
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ Khemakumara Bhante

2019 Jan 08 16:13:20
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ Inddanano Bhante

2019 Jan 08 16:11:09
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 កូរុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ vandami Bhente

2019 Jan 08 12:48:21
Moritz: May all have a good evening _/\_ Chom reap leah _/\_

2019 Jan 08 12:38:37
Moritz: :) Sayun suesday _/\_

2019 Jan 08 12:34:56
Cheav Villa: Thank you Master Moritz _/\_ Well and unwell are welcoming  :D

2019 Jan 08 12:22:05
Johann: Good to read and Sadhu

2019 Jan 08 12:17:08
Moritz: I am fine. Thanks. I hope Bhante and everyone around is well as well   _/\_

2019 Jan 08 12:11:29
Johann: Master Moritz. How is Nyom?

2019 Jan 08 12:07:29
Moritz: I think this design with shoutbox on top is a good expedient solution.

2019 Jan 08 12:06:02
Moritz: hello everyone

2019 Jan 08 12:05:58
Moritz: _/\_ Vandami Bhante,

2019 Jan 06 15:31:56
Khemakumara: It is going better!  Day by day  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 06 14:36:43
Johann: Bhante, how is Bhantes health?

2019 Jan 05 15:54:04
Cheav Villa: Bhante  _/\_ Kana realized that's reasonable

2019 Jan 05 15:29:43
Cheav Villa: កូណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ Inddanano  _/\_

2019 Jan 05 15:16:21
Johann: Bhante  _/\_, kana dwai bongum

2019 Jan 05 15:13:22
Johann:
trust that's correct. ?

2019 Jan 05 14:50:30
Johann: ", likewise/similar Br{e}a(hma): sublime one, master, Sir, lord. និង nàŋ: and, further.

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] How to view people with metta and karuna?  (Read 501 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +351/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
[Q&A] How to view people with metta and karuna?
« on: January 13, 2018, 04:42:42 PM »
How to view people with metta and karuna?

There are definitions of metta and karuna here: What are metta and karuna?

There's a metta-bhavana meditation.

I'm wondering how to practice these socially, though, e.g. as a lay person when talking with people individually or in a group (or perhaps even as a monk talking with people).

In particular what type of view should you try to have of (or see in) people?
 


My question is sparked by this comment :
 
Quote

I posted the way of the Buddha, which is metta plus asuba. Asuba alone won't work. Metta is to view women as mothers, sisters & daughters rather than to view them as sex objects. If you can see that sexual promiscuity of women diminishes & often destroys the capacity for good motherhood, then you might understand the teachings of Gotama better. In summary, asuba is not really necessary for laypeople. It is generally pointless suggesting asuba to a layperson who does not have the disposition to be a monk.

I found that comment questionable, because why not view women as people?

Viewing "women" as "mothers" sounds like pigeon-holing "them" as just another type of sex-object (gender-specific-object) or social role/stereotype/function (slave).

I mean, "yes" to metta -- but "metta" isn't necessarily to "view women as mothers", or is it?

But then the question occurred, if metta isn't as described in the comment then what does metta mean?

The reason I found the above comment questionable is because I expect a person (a woman) might view him- or her-self in a variety of ways: as a mother, as an adult child, as a consumer, as a worker, an athlete, a friend, a volunteer, a voter, and so on ... different views (different ambitions or roles) at different times.

I think that holding a view of someone that isn't the same as their own current view of themselves is a form of harm and a cause of suffering (e.g. a view like "you can't be a friend because you're a woman", "you can't be an employee because you're a mother", "you can't be political because you're a girl", while she wants to be a friend or employee or etc).

So maybe "sympathy" means that you should see other people as they see themselves? But someone's view-of-self might be a cause of suffering too, so maybe it's better if you don't try to see each person as they see themselves? Perhaps it's fantasy to hope that you can see others as they themselves, except in limited circumstances (e.g. in a job interview)? In summary this question (about metta and interacting with people) has devolved towards views-of-self and the thicket-of-views.



So what can be said about metta and karuna, if they interact with identity-view, self-view?

What does a kind of transactional behaviour (attitude) sound like (is it good or bad?) e.g. a view like, "you're a bus driver and I'm here because I'm on the bus ... it doesn't matter who you think you are, nothing matters except your driving the bus and me having an absolute minimum standard of politeness so as not to be actually offensive"?

Sorry if this is a confused question. The suttas (e.g. Sigalovada Sutta ) necessarily talk about general truths, and ends up maybe seeming impersonal, cold, robotic, and I'm not sure if that's the right impression or the whole lesson.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" that can be found here   .)

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa   -


Nyom Chris ,

like Nyom Vorapol  (Bonn) pointed out helpfully , it was for the Buddha very importand, that they get neither confused in gegard of gratitude and deeds of others, in ways like "there is nobody doing...who did", as shown in the quote from the Bhāradvājasutta or in regard of who is the carries of suffering, in the Bhāra Sutta . Something many are leaded to be confused by common ways of interpretations of Buddhas way of thinking for benefit and non-confusion. The common thief-like Niganthas/Jains-ways of metta and insight practice

Especially metta-bhavana has person/s individual/s as object. Thoughts of goodwill be extended not only torward a singe being, group or kind, but torward All possible existing being, which gives release to reach certain Jhanas. (See Karaṇīya Metta-Sutta as a guide for practice (by Bhante Nyanadassana ) .

As it is pointed oth in the quoted sutta text by Nyom Vorapol, certain related people should be regarded in terms of what they had done on benefical and duties toward one and not in regard of sensual pleasure one might had received (which might goes up till sexual pleasure). When we thing on emotions of love, for example, those are mostly in certain range of the seven kinds of sexualities (see Methuna Sutta , by Piya Tan  ).

The tool of using beloved relations to possible develope metta also torward not beloved persons, beings, one can find, when the Buddha counts, that:

 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

On one hand, to know clear about the goodness one had received from others, and the fact that nearly all other beings had been such generous beings as well, like those we highly regard for now, cuts away any willingless to be not of goodwill as a reward.

As the understanding of giving/taking and obligation, goodness and gratitude, gets also clear at the same time, step by step, it also urges samvega and to seek good mindstates and concentration, giving by performing a temporary "debtlessness" in giving ones goodwill equal torward everyone, good or bad, not necessary to be seen equal (since beings are not), for insight an liberation and not for the sake of Coupling (even at is lowest grade: desire for heavingly being and union)

If willing to pull the term of mother into your metta-bhavana, there are again, two anchors:

  • Remember that there is hardly a being having not been you mother in the past, to cut of aversion and increase a suppotive attitude of obligation for being easily able to develop thought of goodwill.
  • and as reminder, that you/one should stick with practicing metta and thoughts of goodwill like a mother clings/loves and holds on her only son (might it be skillful in regard of the mother or not): fight against any thought that likes to harm you metta-state of mind (=son).
If one wishes to bring together asobha-meditation (on the ugliness and imperfection of matter/form, of all kind) and metta meditation (which was actually introduced as a strawmen to excuse unseeming approach) together, such might bear certain dangers. Like told in the quoted Sutta of the comment (if there is sense-desire involved, which is possible in imperfect metta), even a corpse can be reason for sexual lust. So such might be not good to do together, if not one of the ywo is already good developed. But it is right, as commented there, that such as othed kinds of "pleasant" meditation objects are useful as a compensation of to much disgust toward body in a harmful way.

The same counts for karuna (thoughts of wishing to be helped) in regard of "how to view people" and becomes even more visible in regard of mudita, appreciation of goodness developed/done by all other beings and rejoice with all, appreciate then (again a temporary release of subtile present force of obligation) to reach ceratin concentration.

People and beings, when seen in this way, should always been seen in their deeds, way of deeds, result of their deeds, and certain kind be selected to act on it proper. If understanding such as common know as "Buddha-nature" in that way, to find a source of deeds in any being, to be able to regard them proper and with thoughts of metta, karuna and mudita, a matter of gratitude and appreciation for deeds, then to use "Buddha-nature" as a translation for that, to approach other sects developed practice as well in a way to do not increase wrong view, might be good as well.

In the same way one should also regard oneself, have gratitude and appreciation toward ones many previous sacrifices done in the past to in such a seldom, rich and auspicious situation: not waste ones merits and current wealth (in all regards) having no idea of how hard it was to gain and use this again as a strong drive toward liberation and to stick joyful with right effort.

My person hopes that this gives enough reasonable ground to dispel confusions and the questions of "what can be said about metta and karuna, if they interact with identity-view, self-view?"

To get your metta-bhavana on the right track (neither being nor not-being), it's good to remember the contained sentence in the Karaniya Metta Sutta:
 
Quote
Since mettā meditation has the (concept of) "beings" as object, it is close to the ego-illusion or the wrong view of a personality (of what ever kind). Hence, in order to prevent the entanglement in this and other wrong views, and in order to reach the 'fruition attainments' of the 'Noble Living' through insight meditation, the Buddha commences the last verse with the statement: 'And not holding to wrong view'.

Actions give causes, from this comes that, with this that arises.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 04:49:39 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags: