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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Can animals realise the Four Noble Truths? (Answered with sample)  (Read 450 times)

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Offline Johann

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The Brahman Dhammadathu (alias Element, Visuddhiraptor) is a well known person, having falled into disgrace since a longer and it's of cause, not ease, nearly impossible, having once fallen into low realms of existance to get lifted out, yet it is possible.

Periodical, if not permanent, he tries to manifest his right view rejecting ideas and provokes and insults once him, once the other.

In the question "Can animals realise the Four Noble Truths? " he tries, not only be selfanswering to give reasonable evidence against rebirth. While saying rebirth talk just about mindstates within a unique life, even if following this approaches, he is not capable to trace birth into states and their causes.

So this might be useful not only to have certain fear to fall into lower states in this very life, but also to see the pain once gained an existence of devastation:





It's for the sake of those capable, that questions of animals are answered. It's for the sake that animals might gain faith in so far, as to simple observe the Uposatha and trust that better circumstances will follow possible in another, better birth, having build on the strong conditions, given upanissayapaccayena.

In regard of beings, having gained a human existence as far as the gross and merely physical appearance, but having character like an animal, meaning that not having attributes of generosity and no virtue, as to what the Buddha told, it's possible that a merely lost being, nevertheless could gain the path.

That is one reason why Dhamma is not only taught to those sick who are capable to get free of disease, but also to those incapable. And for the sake of those able to get the message, it's right and alowable that those not able are taught as well.

 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"Now, it is because of the person who will alight on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities if he gets to see the Tathagata and gets to hear the Dhamma & Discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata — but not if he doesn't — that the teaching of the Dhamma has been allowed. And it is because there is this sort of person that the other sorts of persons are to be taught the Dhamma as well [on the chance that they may actually turn out to need and benefit from the teaching]."

So there is nothing wrong in also teaching "animals" under humans. Of course, since it is possible danger and not pleasant, there is no duty in do such and just teach if they show some basic characters of what is called a human being (like respect, patient, generosity, felling obligate, and virtue).

If one, on the other side, desires to get animals become humans, thinking all have such as a Buddha-Nature, he/she is not only a fool, but increases by sacrifies into the desert wrong view and suffering is bound to it naturally, being attached to animals, often just a matter of time to addopt the animals way.

Being joyful and gladen if teaching and listening to * wuff *.

In regard of being born as an animal, even if not just a common animal, but one with certain merits, think on pets, one is incapable to grow into the Dhamma, e.g. realize the four Noble Truth. Such is pointed out in the story of the Naga for example:

 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Then the Blessed One, with regard to this cause, to this incident , had the Saṅgha of monks assembled and said to the nāga:

“You nāgas are not liable to growth in this Dhamma and discipline. Go, nāga. (Staying) right there[2], observe the uposatha on the fourteenth (or) fifteenth and eighth of the fortnight. Thus you will be freed from the nāga-birth and quickly regain the human state.”

The nāga, (thinking,) “It’s said that I’m not liable to growth in this Dhamma and discipline!” sad and unhappy, shedding tears, let out a shriek and left.

(Mv.I.63.5) Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, “Monks, there are two conditions for a male nāga’s reverting to his own state: when he engages in intercourse with a female of his own species, and when he falls asleep with his guard down. These are the two conditions for a male nāga’s reverting to his own state.”

“Monks, an animal, if unaccepted, is not to be given Acceptance. If accepted, he is to be expelled.”

As with animals, human can also be observed of what kind they actually are in cases of being involved on consuming sensuallity and in times the lose sati. Even if normaly human appearance, then, they show their animal nature, not possible to hide.

Maybe you know you self of the cases when there is no disguise grasable.

Althought it seems to be a nice live, living like a pet next kind and generouse people, there is really not much worthy and special in it, think on the many pets in human or animal body dewlling on Dhamma places and in monasteries. If they are able to observe the Uposatha anyway, good. But in now way one is smart in putting ones best fruits from ones garden as sacrify for them, yet worthy of the needed to maintain live as all beings.

If one had the luck to become a pet and then, not seeing the nurishing hand, bites it, shows no gratitude, is even pride to has become a pet under others, for such a being, surely, a talk on Dhamma should be not directed (intended for such a pet), since others might be really hurt, capable to get hurt, if feeding a sick dog with mange.

 
Quote
Rowf! Rowf! Rowf!

I once saw a dog who couldn't eat all the rice I had given it, so he lay down and kept watch over the rice right there. He was so full he couldn't eat any more, but he still lay keeping watch right there. He would drift off and get drowsy, and then suddenly glance over at the food that was left. If any other dog came to eat, no matter how big or how small, he'd growl at it. If chickens came to eat the rice, he'd bark: Rowf! Rowf! Rowf! His stomach was ready to burst, but he couldn't let anyone else eat. He was stingy and selfish.

People can be the same way. If they don't know the Dhamma, if they have no sense of their duties to their superiors and inferiors, if their minds are overcome by the defilements of greed, anger, and delusion, then even when they have lots of wealth they're stingy and selfish. They don't know how to share it. They have a hard time even giving donations to poor children or old people who have nothing to eat. I've thought about this and it's struck me how much they're like common animals. They don't have the virtues of human beings at all. The Buddha called them manussa-tiracchano: human-common-animals. That's the way they are because they lack good will, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity.

And what is meant by mange

 
Quote
Mange

The Buddha said, "Monks, did you see the jackal running around here in the evening? Did you see him? Standing still it suffered. Running around it suffered. Sitting down it suffered. Lying down it suffered. Going into the hollow of a tree, it suffered. Going into a cave, it felt ill at ease. It suffered because it thought, 'Standing here isn't good. Sitting isn't good. Lying down isn't good. This bush isn't good. This tree hollow isn't good. This cave isn't good.' So it kept running all the time. Actually, that jackal has mange. Its discomfort doesn't come from the bush or the tree hollow or the cave, from sitting, standing, or lying down. It comes from the mange."

E.g: wrong view, biting around for becoming and for or to gain a pack, a pride.

As one might see the animals around, their pain, even if pets, one should not only develope much metta an karuna with them, but also reflext:

Why it important to value Conditions? , practicing mudita and sharing ones merits, how ever tiny they are.

May the worthy ones and those following gain the first share of this food here, may also their attended be able to still their hunger on it, and may all the rest be able to still the hunger of those not so gifted yet. E.g. the food proper for humans is dedicated for humans, the food contained proper for animals, may be chewed on by the animals to provide them what they prever to eat on.

Since it is a matter of upanissayapaccayena of what personality, food, one prefers and not easy that food conductive for right view will be taken, by those having maybe a human body but have already or previous fallen into disgrace:

 
Quote
Maggots

When we give rise to right view in our hearts, we can be at ease wherever we are. It's because we still have wrong views, still hold onto ideas that are poisonous, that we're not at ease. Holding on in this way is like being a maggot. Where it lives is filthy; its food is filthy. Its food isn't fit to be food — but it seems fitting to the maggot. Try taking a stick and flicking it out of the excrement where it's feeding, and see what happens. It'll wiggle and wriggle, eager to get back to the pile of excrement where it was before. Only then does it feel right.

It's the same with you monks and novices (people dwelling on places wher Dhamma is taught). You still have wrong views. Teachers come and advise you on how to have right view, but it doesn't feel right to you. You keep running back to your pile of excrement. Right view doesn't feel right because you're used to your old pile of excrement. As long as the maggot doesn't see the filth in where it's living, it can't escape. It's the same with us. As long as we don't see the drawbacks of those things, we can't escape from them. They make it difficult to practice.

An what is right view?

 

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world (rebirth). There is mother & father (those going ahead, one has obligation to). There are spontaneously reborn beings (Gods, Devas, Yakkhas, hungry ghosts...); there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves. (Those knowing from seeing, having done the work, not just talk)'

Since the questioner asked for "seeing here and now the truth", even he him self might be not capable, again to be seen by the wise:

 
Quote
While i decided to select your answer as the best due to the effort, i does not sound like Dhamma to me, which is a honored & respected refuge that is visible here & now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, verified by the wise. – Dhammadhatu

'* wuff * , rowf in english. Got it now? That might give the answer for you visible here and now, @Dhammadhatu Seen? – Samana Johann

"Paraloka" means "other world" rather than "next world"; like when drug takers believe they are having fun but end up in the other world of hell. – Dhammadhatu

Sure, for animal para, others, beyound, is still far and not easy to see, since "next" appears for them as the same. Mudita that you can chew and feed on the bones. – Samana Johann

What do you think: can Dhamma be realiced by animals? Easy or nearly to no way for humans having gained an animal state? Visible right here and now.



 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(42) Others will be lacking in mindfulness; we shall be established in mindfulness here — thus effacement can be done .

(43) Others will be without wisdom; we shall be endowed with wisdom — thus effacement can be done.

(44) Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them;[18] we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.

Anumodana!

Quote from: PS.
Did you know, that taking away something that has been given before, is an act of stealing? Did you know, that regret of one previous acts of merits lead easy to become a ancestorless, rich person not able to enjoy his wealth? Did you know that making undertakings to harm Brahmans and contemplatives, maliciously, cheating lying... leads to hell? Can it be seen, here and now, Dhammadhatu ? Or does it require another rebirth fist, better countless, since to gain human birth again is not easy to gain, not to speak of the teachings of a Tatagatha. let go of bad promisses if possible in thi very realm.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])
 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

gus

October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "

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