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Author Topic: Perfect virtue  (Read 331 times)

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Offline Johann

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Perfect virtue
« on: February 19, 2018, 03:42:51 PM »
by the way, what is "perfect virtue"?

 _/\_

Assuming that Nyom Danilo was possible disturbed by my persons often hard to bear kind, and assuming that the question is still a relevant, possible not only for Upasaka Danilo, but even if, shall my person try to give a releasing answer for it.

If this assuming is not proper in this regards, may it be an encouraging reminder of previously already gained release, simply Anumodana.

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors, Nyom Danilo,

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Perfect virtue might be seen in three kind, perfect virtue to access the path of Dhamma, perfect virtue which is gained by accessing the path, and real perfect virtue of one who had fulfilled the training, that of an Arahat.

All of these three kinds of perfect virtue have right resolve , or right intention as fundation, as prerequisite.

While the first is based on intellectual or faithful accepted right view , the secound has already insight, gotten knowing by seeing by oneself and the third by steady seeing things (Dhammas) in the right angle, without no more need to look after something, trough fully liberation.

Perfect virtue is conduct that does not leave open any reason for remorse, since it is in line with nature, the Dhamma.

In line with nature and not in conflict with nature mean, that it is based on right intention, or right resolve, or one could say right way of thinking.

Willingly acting, starting with mind, verbalisation and then by bodily action, is based on three pillows, of which each counteracts the roots of wrong intention:

- renunciation, nekkhammasa, "giving up the world & leading a holy life, renunciation of, or emancipation from worldliness, freedom from lust, craving & desires, dispassionateness, self -- abnegation", counteracting greed, lobha, unwilling to accumulate or hold on, one could say also intended to give, let go, give up.

- freedom from ill-will, abyāpādasa, being non-aversive but of goodwill, counteracting hatred, dosa.

- harmlessness, avihiṃsāsa, not willing to harm or struggle, not being opponent but of clearance, counteracting ignorance, moha.

If intention or will is not connected with greed, hardred, ignorance, perfect action follows, meaning that when the mind is free from defilements, there is no reason on which an act would cause even the slightes remorse and violation of in line with nature.

So generally perfect virtue is not something that is defined but this or that result at first place, but on the quality of mind.

Since one might not know mind well, do not recognize ones state of mind on which is acted, but, as common usuall, one focuses on results, virtue is at the beginning of the training discriminated by results of bodily deeds and speech (incl. signs, gesture).

If not having reached the level of perfect virtue, one will mainly act on assuming results, observing results while doing and reflecting results of previous deeds. One gets known inwardly and outwardly results of deeds and thereby one gets an impression of the minds quality in regard of results from it.

To even being intended to think about possible results of actions, to observe while acting and to reflect about it, right view is required, comfirming that there are deeds, results of deeds, that one is the heir of ones deeds, and that it is possible to go beyound.

The more and seriouse one trains virtue, the more virtue becomes a matter of mind, a matter of concentration and perfect concentration. And with it virtue becomes a matter of wisdom, as the Noble truth, highlight right view, are no more that far from the actions on it, the more natural intention, reasoned on right understanding, or view, becomes.

Seeing, one knows, knowing, one acts. If the view is no more defiled, one sees how it really is, having proper attention, focused on the right, one knows right, knowing right, one acts right: perfect.

Actions based on right view, knowing suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path of training leading to cessation, is already perfect action, perfect virtue. If not based on right view, what ever action, even it appears outwardly perfect, seeing only outwardly results, is not perfect virtue, not higher virtue, but "just" outwardly training.

A person, having gained right view, having seen things as they really are, has completed the perfection of the virtue section of the path, changed to noble ancestor-ship and is no more able to deliberatly act gravely wrong and so no more subject to fall upwards, destined to liberation and final end of any remorse and debt "Birth is ended. No more further for this world." Then, if having no more object in the world which is regarded on, not the slightest reason for compromise for certain sake, moral virtue, the virtue of concentration, and virtue of wisdom has become real perfect. As actions are no more objected on anything, but simply perfect in line with nature, since the is no more touch of ignorance, not-knowing, one does simply such or such, without no more effects causing further becoming, of what ever kind.

Maybe it's at the end of this undertaking of explaining the question good to point out that actions of a person having gone beyond results for him, will of cause not contradict perfect actions of a person in training. So one should not assume that a perfect one can act evil, now where there no more results for one can be expected, is simply so that the is out of reason, out of prerequisite, out of total destruction of not knowing, no more possibility to act wrong.

Once not-knowing is destroyed, by seeing clear as it is, as it appears, decays, one does not act in contradiction to ones knowing and seeing.

Once really knowing fire, one does no more touch it in ways it would have effects of pain.

Perfect virtue, the conduct of an Arahat, is that of freely giving, way and nurishment for coming onto and finally finish the path. Sometimes, dependent on circumstances,  he gives by giving of what is conductive for beings release, or he gives by giving ways for what is conductive for release, or he receives for what is conductive for beings release.

In what ever way perfect virtue acts, it has release as the only object. One has become someone who can really give, blessed, Bhagava, a liberal.

Knowing the effects of training in virtue, there is a traditional appreciation, encouragement, after people having taken the basic precepts.

Sīlena sugatiṃ yanti.
Through virtue they go to a good bourn.

Sīlena bhoga-sampadā.
Through virtue is wealth attained.

Sīlena nibbutiṃ yanti.
Through virtue they go to Liberation.

Tasmā sīlaṃ visodhaye.
Therefore we should purify our virtue.


May person will end here by reciting the ten perfect actions:

"Householders, there are three sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with the body; four sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with speech; and three sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with the mind.

Unskillful Bodily Action

"And how are there three sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with the body?

"There is the case where a certain person takes life, is brutal, bloody-handed, devoted to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

"He takes what is not given. He takes, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them.

"He engages in sensual misconduct. He gets sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man.

"This is how there are three sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with the body.

Unskillful Verbal Action

"And how are there four sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with speech?

"There is the case where a certain person engages in false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty [i.e., a royal court proceeding], if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I know.' If he does know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I have seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' Thus he consciously tells lies for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of a certain reward.

"He engages in divisive speech.[2] What he has heard here he tells there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he tells here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus breaking apart those who are united and stirring up strife between those who have broken apart, he loves factionalism, delights in factionalism, enjoys factionalism, speaks things that create factionalism.

"He engages in abusive speech. He speaks words that are harsh, cutting, bitter to others, abusive of others, provoking anger and destroying concentration.

"He engages in idle chatter. He speaks out of season, speaks what isn't factual, what isn't in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya, words that are not worth treasuring.

"This is how there are four sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with speech.

Unskillful Mental Action

"And how are there three sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with the mind?

"There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!'

"He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: 'May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!'

"He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' [3]

"This is how there are three sorts of un-Dhamma conduct, dissonant conduct with the mind.

"It's by reason of this un-Dhamma conduct & dissonant conduct that some beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

"Householders, there are three sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with the body; four sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with speech; and three sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with the mind.

Skillful Bodily Action

"And how are there three sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with the body?

"There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings.

"Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He doesn't take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them.

"Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He doesn't get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man.

"This is how there are three sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with the body.

Skillful Verbal Action

"And how are there three sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with speech?

"There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.

"Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he doesn't tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he doesn't tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord.

"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large.

"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.

"This is how there are four sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with speech.

Skillful Mental Action

"And how are there three sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with the mind?

"There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He doesn't covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!'

"He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' [4]

"He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' [5]

"This is how there are three sorts of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct with the mind.

"It's by reason of this Dhamma conduct & harmonious conduct that some beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.

"Householders, if one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among well-to-do noble warriors, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among well-to-do noble warriors. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct. [6]

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among well-to-do brahmans, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among well-to-do brahmans. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct.

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among well-to-do householders, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among well-to-do householders. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct.

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among the devas of the Four Great Kings, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among the devas of the Four Great Kings. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct.

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among the devas of the Thirty-three... the devas of the Hours... the Contented devas... the devas Delighting in Creation... the devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among the devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct. [7]

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among the devas in Brahma's retinue... the Radiant devas... the devas of Limited Radiance... the devas of Immeasurable Radiance... the devas of Streaming Radiance... the Beautiful devas ... the devas of Limited Beauty... the devas of Immeasurable Beauty... the Beautiful Black devas... the Sky-fruit devas, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among the Sky-fruit devas. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct. [8]

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among the Not Falling Away devas... the Untroubled devas... the Good-looking devas... the Clear-seeing devas... the Peerless devas, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among the Peerless devas. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct. [9]

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I, with the break-up of the body, after death, were to reappear among the devas who have reached the dimension of the infinitude of space... the devas who have reached the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the devas who have reached the dimension of nothingness... the devas who have reached the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, it is possible that one — with the break-up of the body, after death — would appear among the devas who have reached the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct. [10]

"If one — a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct — should wish: 'O if I — with the ending of the mental fermentations — were to enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known and realized them for myself right in the here & now,' it is possible that one — with the ending of the mental fermentations — would enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known and realized them for oneself right in the here & now. [11] Why is that? Because one is a person of Dhamma conduct, harmonious conduct."

Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

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Re: Perfect virtue
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2018, 02:56:05 AM »
Thanks again!  _/\_

Offline Johann

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Re: Perfect virtue
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 09:24:34 AM »
Since Nyom Danilo brought this up on other place, using it as a defend to justify doubt:

Quote from: Danilo, while engaged in disputing
By the way, attachment to rites and rituals is a mental fetter to be abandoned, isn't?

It might be good to go again through this topic an probably ask further, since:

1. taking on the basic precepts as simply ritual is necessary to gain proper concentration (out of lack of remorse) to possible access the/a path of the Eightfold Noble one.

2. The outwardly appearance, eg. physical appearance, once right conduct has become natural, is not different to that of a person beyound of acting on pondering.

3. To throw away the raft before even on the way to the other shore or right in between is very common under doubters or those not willing to give at first place but act just on demanding.

The essay, however, dealing with common errors in this regard (although it is not mentioned, that rites and rituals abounding actually means "wrong rites and rituals") Virtue without Attachment might be useful to find certain faith to actually take on the practice, to see for oneself. If not seen for oneself, even if there have been times one could find certain faith, it's just a matter of time, to fall back and upwards. One is not securce of falling into bad states for now.

And what is required to see for oneself? In ten different ways it is given here, how one enters finally, deprives oneself of the cause to act unskilful, and being on the way to perfection: Okkanta-samyutta — Entering
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Danilo

April 15, 2018, 12:43:25 AM
Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

April 15, 2018, 12:38:56 AM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Johann

April 12, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
Moritz
 

Moritz

April 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 07:19:18 PM
Hello.
 

Johann

April 10, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Nyom. (Sideboad ist stets zugeklappt... tech. Probl.) 3:00 ist auch schon guten Tag.
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Good day (night here)
_/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

April 09, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Take your time Nyom Danilo and watch the breath to stay best calm for best benefit. A lot of chances to get ride of many ols burdens.
 

Danilo

April 08, 2018, 06:24:57 PM
_/\_
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 05:54:03 PM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Marcel

April 08, 2018, 09:58:59 AM
sadhu!
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 07:35:17 AM
Sadhu!
 

Moritz

April 08, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
Good Uposatha to all. _/\_
 

Marcel

April 01, 2018, 06:17:08 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 10:11:20 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 31, 2018, 09:52:03 AM
 :-* ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 06:44:11 PM
Atma zieht sich hier nun zurück. Möge sich Vollkommenheit einstellen.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Nyom Binocular.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 04:10:58 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
Brahmane Hanspeter.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Moritz, mag sich Vollendung ergeben. (Chamreun bo)
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Chom reap sour. _/\_
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:11:33 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

March 26, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Nyom Binocular.

my person will leave for today and rests. There have been left some hard challenges (sure for many). May they be releasing taken and increase conviction.
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Gute Antwort. Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 25, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

beste wünsche zurück an erhwürdigen bhante! es ist unsicher wann ich wieder komme! upanissayapaccayena!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
Marcel.
(Heute im Nordkloster, best wünsche vom Abt dort, er fragt stets "Wann kommt er? Ich muß immer an ihn denken."
 

Johann

March 24, 2018, 10:44:34 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 24, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
 :-* heute ist uposatha!! ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen tag! mögen die devas jene bescheid geben, die kein zugang haben! :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Sadhu! Zu was immer einer Zuflucht nimmt, sich hingibt, daran erfreut, das wird/ist sein Schutz, für Bindung oder Ungebundenheit.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM
Moritz
 

Administration

March 21, 2018, 03:42:55 PM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 21, 2018, 03:32:47 PM
 :-* mögen sie alle noch in diesem leben das herz von avijja befreien!!! :-*
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
One leading to peaks pointing downward so that aging, sickness and death can be seen, know him/her as a sage, a giver of release.
 

Johann

March 18, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
One leading people to papanca, promoting rejoicing in objectification as the heart wood, increases to fields of corpse in the world.

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