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Author Topic: Violence and killing in Jātaka tales  (Read 227 times)

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Offline Danilo

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Violence and killing in Jātaka tales
« on: February 24, 2018, 06:00:45 PM »
Some time ago I came across with this article ("Buddhists and Guns" - written in portuguese) which in short, claims that "Buddhism does not advocate pacifism" and "There is no malice in use violence for self-defense". The author identifies himself as 'buddhist' and also seems to be a firearms enthusiast and a sports shooter. Most of the article use fallacies and is highly biased. But at certain point, he mentions a supposed snippet of the Jataka tales (according to him) which would be a odd dicourse directed to general Sīha . There it is (in english):

Quote from: "Buddhists and Guns" - supposed snippet of Jataka tales
The Buddha teaches that the culprit deserves punishment, and the worthy of value must be favored, however he also teaches that one shouldn't cause harm to any living being, but have a heart full of compassion and love. These teachings doesn't contradict each other, because those whom receive punishment for their crimes doesn't suffer by the malice of the judge but by the aftermath of their own guiltiness. Their evil deeds carried out the harm which inflicts the executor of the law. When a magistrate punish, he must be free from all hatred; and the criminal condemned to death penalty must keep in mind that his torment is the outcome of his crime, and if he understand that his punishment will purify his deeds, he will rejoice in his death.

The Buddha teaches that it is pitiful all wars between men; Nonetheless he does not disapprove those whom fight for a fair cause, after the exhaustion of all means to preserve peace. The one who cause the war deserves execration. The Buddha teaches complete renunciation of the ego, but doesn't advocate that people fall for sinister powers.


The one who fights for selfish purposes of status, power, wealth, will not be rewarded; However the one who fights for justice and truthfulness, will receive the reward, because he will be victorious, even if he suffers some transient defeat before the final triumph.


Fight, so, boldly, oh Sīha, and fight with martial effort in the battles; a soldier you shall be and the Buddha will bless you.

It is unlikely that the Buddha or his diciples (it is not clear who is uttering the discouse) would blabber such words, justifying and approving killing, it has nothing to do with the Dhamma. So I thought that it was more likely that the author of the article was lying (He didn't even mentioned where exactly to find the text). But later, again I found another (thus claimed) story of the Jataka justifying and approving killing here .

So I ask:

Are these stories really included in the Jataka tales? Is it authentic? How can this stories be linked to the Buddha? how is this related to his teachings of no-violence all over the Pali Canon?


Offline Johann

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Re: Violence and killing in Jātaka tales
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2018, 06:58:58 PM »
There is, even literary, not to speak if knowing the Dhamma, not any indicator that there is even a slight approve of violence by Buddha, Nyom Danilo .

Such doctrins are often introduced by people actually lacking faith in regard of renouncing but try to use the Dhamma in wordly ways and for low wordly purposes, at least on is required to seek for justfications not to strive for Nibbana but live by feeding on others for a certain higher purpose.

Some of these topics and talks might be in relation to this here:

- Why and how Mohayanas and "Buddhist" justify killing and stealing.

- Wisdom over Justice - Weisheit vor Gerechtigkeit (Recht)

- " The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun."

- Für den Frieden in den Krieg schicken - For Peace send into War

- Getting the Message

- Justice vs. Skillfulness

Surely one of the most clear expression, also toward lay people, has been given in the Sutta: To Dhanañjani .

If coming across people having only slight doubts in "no go!" or even argue for justifies harming and killing, one does good to turn away from such.

Even approving or mental appreciation is actually already akusala kamma, something many in democratic systems are very less aware of, yet there are even "monks" who move people to the dark side.

Accepting = instigate = donig by one self .

So even just talked about, it's a serious but also a clear topic with really no place for right arguments justifying especial bodily missdeeds by breaking the basic Silas.

There are many gun-men out there and there are not less Buddhist-social-network actually leaded by people advocate just-killing and just-war willing to even slander the Buddha in this regard.

Dhammadatu (also known as Elemen) does never shy to encourage people to break precepts, and as told, one should step far from communities given such things approve or even reputation.

The answer in regard of the authenticity of the Jataka quoted, is given in the first link at the beginning and this Mohayana tale is most used by those doing such slandering and harming of many.

The origin of the "Upayakausalya Sutra" and the murderous Bodhisattva is even unclear within the Mahayana sects but can of cause not be found in the old texts.

This right means is totally misused and best explaining is given in "Wisdom over Justice " of what the point of right means is about, Nyom Danilo.

“Not harming yourself” in the context of virtue would mean not breaking the precepts—e.g., no killing or lying under any circumstances—whereas not harming others would mean not getting them to break the precepts (AN 4:99). After all, an underlying principle of kamma is that people are agents who will receive results in line with the type of actions they perform. If you try to persuade them to break the precepts, you’re trying to increase their suffering down the line.

This teaching is possible the best explaining of the root problem of getting the message and surely good if translated and shared. There seems to be a Portuguese community around Bhante Thanissaro as well and my person can nothing but encourage to translate his teachings. Most sadly tend only to translate teaching on meditation of him.
Feel encouraged to use the enviroment here for working on such as well as to share.

* Johann : moved it into the sila-section. Answered unasked since assuming that not just a "let us discuss this and philosopher about it"-was intented and a clear answer was seeked.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 07:30:23 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags: Jataka violence killing 
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March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.


March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.


March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.


March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.


March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".


March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_


March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori


March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_


March 19, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
One leading to peaks pointing downward so that aging, sickness and death can be seen, know him/her as a sage, a giver of release.


March 18, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
One leading people to papanca, promoting rejoicing in objectification as the heart wood, increases to fields of corpse in the world.


March 18, 2018, 12:03:14 AM
Good night _/\_


March 17, 2018, 11:59:14 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_


March 17, 2018, 11:51:37 PM


March 16, 2018, 01:19:17 AM


March 15, 2018, 09:53:07 PM
 :-* ich wünschen allen einen verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*


March 14, 2018, 11:19:11 PM
Sounds like a good idea to rest. I will be taking a break from the internet for a while i feel detached a lot from the worldly feminisms and all. It is wonderful not to be lusting, walking the streets with lowered gaze, delighting in meditation... I fear it compromises me to even think about the pol


March 14, 2018, 11:10:27 PM


March 14, 2018, 10:58:38 PM
Marcel, Morits, Upasaka X, it's time to break up this auspicious coming in touch now also for my person. Observe, remember, how you have been yesterday an now and guess of what will be tomorrow probably... maybe just not sure.


March 14, 2018, 10:06:46 PM
Sadhu, _/\_

may Bhante have a peaceful day.

Chom reap sour.


March 14, 2018, 09:58:42 PM
 :-* :-* :-*


March 14, 2018, 09:55:00 PM
O yes... will be a long day, this yesterday, but possible a remorseless.


March 14, 2018, 09:46:45 PM
Vandami Bhante,
good evening (morning in Cambodia?).



March 14, 2018, 03:03:38 AM
Wie war es gestern? Wie geht es heute?

How was it yesterday? How are you today?


March 06, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
Nyom Jens.


March 05, 2018, 02:25:22 PM
 :-* erhwürdiger bhante johann  :-*


March 05, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
Nyom Marcel


March 01, 2018, 12:52:02 AM
Sadhu, eine des Magha-puja allen jenen die sie heute Begehen.


February 28, 2018, 09:48:58 PM
 :-* allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha tag :-*


February 24, 2018, 02:37:41 AM


February 24, 2018, 01:31:25 AM


February 24, 2018, 12:50:00 AM
Es ist sehr selten, ungewöhnlich und erfreulich, zur Mitfreude anregend, junge Menschen Kloster aufsuchend zu sehen.


February 23, 2018, 02:56:54 PM
Namasakara, Bhante _/\_


February 23, 2018, 04:04:45 AM


February 23, 2018, 02:16:16 AM
Nyom Danilo.
(Atma will leave for a while for his almsround.)


February 22, 2018, 10:08:41 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja ich ahb die khmer tastatur installiert! ich werde in den nächsten tagen text teilen und berichten!  :-*


February 22, 2018, 12:34:06 PM
Hat Nyom Marcel schon eine Khmer Tastatur installiert?


February 22, 2018, 12:32:21 PM
So ist das. Wenn Nahrung aufgebraucht, dann ist da für eine Weile Ende, und Wiedergeboren, es wieder brennen wird. Zum endgültigen legen des Feuers sind wir hier, oder? Pfau ruft, Gecko balzt, alles in Ordnung, oder?


February 22, 2018, 12:16:35 PM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, letzte nacht davon geträumt, dass es beim ashram brennt!!
ich hoffe, das feuer hat sich gelegt  :-*


February 22, 2018, 11:43:37 AM
Nyom Marcel.


February 22, 2018, 09:08:57 AM


February 22, 2018, 08:49:51 AM
Möge Regen kommen und alle beschützt werden


February 22, 2018, 01:59:08 AM


February 22, 2018, 01:04:19 AM
ich  wünsche einen verdienstvollen uposatha!! all jende für morgen auch einen hervorragenden uposatha!!!
 :-* :-* :-*


February 19, 2018, 06:00:04 PM
Much joy and releasing touches here, Nyom Chris, my person will leave for today, befor it becomes tomorrow, and rest a little.


February 14, 2018, 03:57:33 PM
Sadhu, auch jenen, die ihn morgen, auch Chinesisches Neujahrsfest, begehen, einhalten.


February 14, 2018, 01:37:51 PM
einen verdienstvollen uposatha allen!!!


February 10, 2018, 12:31:09 PM
Sadhu! Mag er fruchtvoll verlaufen sein. Gerade wieder Möglichkeit erhalten, in dieser Welt hier beizutragen.


February 08, 2018, 12:46:43 PM
 :-* :-* :-* ich wünsche allen einen verdienstvollen uposatha  :-* :-* :-*


February 05, 2018, 02:19:14 PM

 :-* :-* :-* sadhu,sadhu,sadhu

 :-* :-* :-*


February 02, 2018, 12:38:06 PM
Meinereiner ist so schnell ie noch nie genesen. Die Symptome des Befalls nur 2 Tage, und die üblichen 5 Tage um das Medikament zu überstehen. Atma ist gerade wohl auf und auch das ist wie für alle nicht sicher. Nutze den Tag heißt vorallem über Alter, Krankheit und Tod, wie Alternative z

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