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Talkbox

2019 Apr 25 07:32:44
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻អរព្រះគុណ ព្រះអង្គ

2019 Apr 25 04:42:51
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom. (May well-being come to fullfillment.)

2019 Apr 25 02:30:46
Ieng Puthy: តេីលោកRoman មានបំណងទៅវត្តអកយំនៅថ្ងៃណាដែរ?ព្រះអង្គ🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Apr 25 02:29:26
Ieng Puthy: ករុណានិង បងសុភឿន នឹងជូនលោកRoman ទៅវត្តអកយំបាន

2019 Apr 25 02:28:00
Ieng Puthy: ករុណានិង បង សុភឿន នឹងជួយស

2019 Apr 25 02:27:00
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុព្រះអង្គ Vandami Bhante

2019 Apr 24 17:56:05
Cheav Villa: កូណា សរសេរពួកយើង​ គឺជំនួសមុខ​ បងពុទ្ធីនិងសុភឿន  _/\_

2019 Apr 24 17:54:42
Cheav Villa: បង​ពុទ្ធី បានអោយកូណាសួរអំពីពេលវេលា​ ដែលលោកRoman នឹងទៅអកយំ _/\_

2019 Apr 24 17:52:47
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_  កូណាបាន ប្រាប់បងពុទ្ធី និង​សុ​ភឿន ប្រសិនបើគាត់អាចជួយបាន ព្រោះកូណាមិនមានសេរីភាពច្រើនដូចពួកគាត់

2019 Apr 24 17:01:34
Johann: Modern (ab)art of conversation and old patient culture...  :) great training only serious take on and rushing hide on messanger, fb, or in the ocean of Maras internet. Mudita.  :)

2019 Apr 23 13:36:18
Cheav Villa: Kana :D _/\_

2019 Apr 23 13:24:57
Johann: ? But light is always good. Oh, maybe the honey bee candles...: Atma told Upasika Sophorn to take them with her to share, since the mices would eat them away here. Mudita

2019 Apr 23 12:52:51
Cheav Villa: Kana Preah Ang  _/\_ Vithou told kana that Bhante sending us a pair of candles all through Bang Sophorn  :D _/\_

2019 Apr 23 12:06:15
Johann: Nyom Villa. Atma does not understand all circumstances but much mudita and appreciantion with sharing merits with each other, taking each other along good.

2019 Apr 23 11:04:23
Cheav Villa: កូណា ទើបបានដំណឹងពី Vithou ថាព្រះអង្គផ្ញើទានមួយគូមក តាមរយៈ​បងសុភ័ណ​ ខ្ញុំកូណា​សូម​អរព្រះគុណ​  :) _/\_

2019 Apr 23 11:02:19
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 23 02:03:31
Johann: Nyom. (smilies of the common places are not visible here for many)

2019 Apr 22 17:36:16
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុ Vandami Bhante

2019 Apr 22 15:54:07
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz  _/\_

2019 Apr 22 15:03:17
Moritz: _/\_ Bong Villa

2019 Apr 20 07:30:33
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 20 05:25:34
Moritz: _/\_ bong Vithou

2019 Apr 19 06:30:18
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Apr 19 06:25:58
Moritz: _/\_ bong Villa

2019 Apr 19 06:25:48
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 19 02:23:14
Cheav Villa:  សាធុ​ៗ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 19 01:42:18
Johann: Another fullmoon, another chance. It's not sure that breaking apart will make it the last. May all spend a auspicious Uposatha.

2019 Apr 17 15:33:54
Chanroth:  _/\_ bong Moritz

2019 Apr 17 15:32:22
Chanroth:  _/\_bong villa

2019 Apr 17 15:31:07
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 17 07:11:18
Johann: Bhante

2019 Apr 17 05:05:51
Johann: Bhante  _/\_

2019 Apr 17 02:16:55
Johann: May all bring some merits left into this new year for them!

2019 Apr 12 17:30:17
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 12 14:39:05
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa

2019 Apr 12 14:27:27
Cheav Villa:  _/\_  Master Moritz

2019 Apr 12 14:26:24
Moritz: _/\_ Bong Villa

2019 Apr 12 14:26:12
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 12 14:09:15
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 12 01:54:32
Johann: A meritful Sila-day and much rightly joy by doing merits.

2019 Apr 09 08:24:39
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Apr 09 08:14:00
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 06 19:12:07
Moritz: Vandami, Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 06 08:32:11
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 06 07:44:05
Johann: _/\_ Bhante Indannano, Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Apr 06 06:51:05
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 05 14:37:22
Khemakumara: Nyom Roman

2019 Apr 05 14:35:22
Johann: Bhante, Meister Roman

2019 Apr 05 14:18:13
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Apr 05 09:58:10
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 Apr 05 09:55:43
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 05 09:53:07
Khemakumara: Nyom Moritz

2019 Apr 05 07:23:13
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 05 05:41:00
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Apr 04 02:43:01
Johann: May all spend a meritful old month over New month birth day this day.

2019 Apr 03 21:09:04
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 03 13:50:42
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 03 13:23:48
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Apr 03 13:07:53
Khemakumara: Tomorrow is new moon uposatha,  take this noble opportunity to come together in khema (peaceful).  It is not common,  that living beings are in contact with Buddha,  Dhamma, Sangha.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 02 15:20:21
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 02 05:09:56
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Apr 02 04:40:57
Moritz: Good morning Bhante and Chanroth _/\_ And good night to me. :)

2019 Apr 01 17:12:00
Moritz: Good evening Bhante. _/\_

2019 Apr 01 15:16:08
Johann: Nyom Chanroth, Nyom Villa (mudita that those wishing to stay in touch are able here)

2019 Apr 01 04:29:01
Johann: One not having overcome sakayaditthi is not capable to judge right and will always be corrupt.

2019 Mar 31 01:02:21
Johann: One would not let go of ones stand/home.

2019 Mar 31 01:00:01
Johann: As long as Saddha does not arise, it's not right view but stuck in "panna".

2019 Mar 30 10:03:35
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Mar 30 08:48:04
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 30 08:28:03
Johann: Samvega, yes, Nyom. If there is no pasada. Cheating is of no help but selfish motivated. Maybe Affirming the Truths of the Heart: The Buddhist Teachings on Samvega  

2019 Mar 30 08:13:03
Kong Sokdina: Vandami Bhante    :D បើចង់ អោយចេះប្រមាណ បើបាន អោយចេះគ្រប់ ជៀរាងការកើតទុក្ខនាំមកនូវសេចក្ដីខកចិត្ត(depressed mood) ។

2019 Mar 29 06:06:43
Johann: Like a path would disappear fastly in the forest, the path for many unseen if nobody steps on it.

2019 Mar 29 06:04:31
Johann: Because Uppekha isn't the highest and nobody would benefit from it.

2019 Mar 29 06:03:18
Johann: And why the even Noble ones and Arahats continue asking, answering, coss-question, giving Anumodana, critic?

2019 Mar 29 00:41:54
Johann: Once knowing good and bad, no more independency of approve of others, thanks, praise for ones sacrifices.

2019 Mar 29 00:40:05
Johann: What ever one does, one does for him/herself. Knowing this it's importand to give praise and approve to ones own skillful deeds, shame and disprove to bad.

2019 Mar 28 08:51:12
Moritz: I am leaving my computer to work without me. May all have a good Uposatha day. _/\_

2019 Mar 28 08:00:48
Moritz: Ja, gut angekommen. Noch nicht ganz umgestellt. :) Bald wieder los zum Taxifahren. _/\_

2019 Mar 28 07:45:55
Johann: Meister Moritz. Gut angekommen und wieder umgestellt?

2019 Mar 28 07:28:51
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Mar 28 00:47:42
Johann: May all spend a meritful Sila-day and be able to recoice with their beauty of having given all being the gift of the Uposatha-Silas.

2019 Mar 26 01:18:56
Cheav Villa:  :D _/\_

2019 Mar 26 01:18:46
Cheav Villa: មិនខុសពីរឿងទៅសុំសៀវភៅសន្ទនានុក្រម នៅវ ត្ត បញ្ញា​ និង..

2019 Mar 26 01:16:15
Cheav Villa: កូណា ជារឿងដែលម្នាក់បានទទួលស្តាប់ និងធ្វើតាមតែមិនបានសំរេច តាមគោលដៅ :D _/\_

2019 Mar 25 15:28:24
Johann: Others, even if pure, is open for critic and bad assumings. Envy, jealously... on each side. So to become not susbected, needs good advices, double hard for woman to act perfect.

2019 Mar 25 15:23:21
Johann: Pappies can give good lessons when they don't fall, but the deeper, the hard training, must come from liberal mommies for daughters and liberal pappies for sons, in the world and for beyond.

2019 Mar 25 15:11:15
Cheav Villa:   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 15:04:40
Johann: Does mommy generally don't actually love her child when not react?

2019 Mar 25 15:03:13
Johann: Mommy, mommy... but I like... ohh, they bite me... I am hungry... when do we go back?... why must we sit here... mommy!

2019 Mar 25 15:00:37
Johann: Which can be changed all the time, with feeding rightly.

2019 Mar 25 14:55:50
Cheav Villa: កូណាសង្ឃឹមថា.​ ជារឿងឧបនិស្ស័យ.​  :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 14:50:25
Johann: ...teaching and mirror.

2019 Mar 25 14:49:40
Johann: When one is stressed or busy, remember how many times one him/herself was so as well. Intention will always has it's effects, sometimes quick, sometimes even sisters, mother and child... Nyom wouldn't have become here, if there would be not long, long bounds. Watch your child. Thats always a great t

2019 Mar 25 14:40:41
Cheav Villa: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 14:39:48
Cheav Villa: ព្រោះកូណាមិនអាចទៅឱរ៉ាល់បានកំឡុងពេលនេះ តែអាចជួបនៅភ្នំពេញបាន តែចេតនាម្ខាងមិនចង់ជួប ទើបមិនអាចជួប

2019 Mar 25 14:38:39
Cheav Villa: កូណាគ្រាន់តែចង់បញ្ជាក់អំពីចេតនា ដែលម្នាក់មាន និងម្នាក់គ្មាន ក្នុងការ​ជួបគ្នា.ជាហេតុមិនបានជួប :D _/\_

2019 Mar 25 14:37:02
Cheav Villa:    _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Mar 25 13:44:16
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Foot well again?

2019 Mar 25 11:56:36
Johann: Good stories: The Healing of the Bull and Prisoners of Karma .

2019 Mar 25 11:51:20
Johann: Although monks are allowed to explain how to work oneself out, they are not given to liberate "slaves", prisoner, as this would count as thief.

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Author Topic: Association with pets - Associated rebith?  (Read 4930 times)

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Offline Danilo

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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2018, 08:26:29 PM »
Althought it seems that there is actually not much interest to listen and read but merely the wish to gain the favor of an audience, my person will answer nevertheless, Nyom Danilo.

I've brought here the suttas in which my view was based for the purpose of, if wishing so, Bhante could address to it in order to make his point more clear. It happens that the range and possible application of right view is relatively broad and your line of reason in this matter comes from a unfamiliar interpretation, oriented to a very specific situation and it was presented in a diluted and disperse way in the previous posts amongst much additional information, but this last post was succint and straightfoward. It made things more clear.

Offline Johann

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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2018, 02:35:34 AM »
Nyom Danilo , is it so far clear now, that it:

* it does not require to break Silas to fall into a state of animals (yet not common). If for example, one believing in kamma, and addopts the behaviour of lower one.

* even if not breaking Silas, dependent on the grad of wrong view, and one inclination, such can lead even to fall into the state of common animals.

* if behavior like a pet, an existence like a pet can be expected, if associate with pets in inproper way, it's a matter of nature to addopt their ways. If wishing, thinking "pets-life is desireable", there are all ways to gain it.

Either is speaking about the danger of falling into lower realms, nor to make clear that especially broad modern behavior of a consumer world beloved or even "political correct", e.g. would not bring any favor exept wise people. And since the topic is such, the Buddha did not want to answer at first, as it can give a lot of disappointment, having often ap-pointed one focus on that.

Danilo, others then those in Europe or in other countries in the north, can, could, easily obsere the different states of dog lifes, and the different states of human conditions, yet still living next each other, "owner"/"lords" and their "pets".

So for the sake of gaining right view and possible path and fruit, the sooner one accepts this matter, and sees modern broad missconcepts, the better.

My person does not it is easy, but knows that time is running, as well as too many lure everywhere, makes it difficult and seldom to receive straight words.

"We", at least my person, is not here to fondle defilments, or keep pets, for the sake of winning a favor for any wordly gain.

How ever, since my words are often not pleasant, and one could say "oh he keeps no pets, he does not like them", maybe Nyom Binocular, as living in probably near association with many pets, likes to risks to analyze the topic and if not already knowing, after that, help with more pleasant approaches to make the importand meaning, behind just this or that stand, more visible.

Since people seldom understand that there could be those who had worn all kinds of shoes and those have been abound, and it's not a matter that not wearing shoes means not knowing them.

So sometimes a smoker, seeing the danger, but not yet able to abound, can give motivation to seek for those who know how to get ride. What do you think, Nyom Binoclar, in association and bound to pets, here and there? In favor of certain pets? Maybe cats? The look so smart and independent and have a fondling behaviour.  :)

Quote from: Danilo
I've brought here the suttas in which my view was based for the purpose of, if wishing so, Bhante could address to it in order to make his point more clear.

It should be clear, that one who cares about his duties, cares about those bound to one, is not something bad, but praiseworthy to this regard. Not to speak of rightly abound merely common duties and take on higher. How ever, the problem of getting bound has it's reason as well to get ride of it. Given, that from the Buddhas point of view, leaving behind beloved, and seek, if possible, the way for liberation as homeless, abounding not only beloved sensuality but also those provinding for it, it would be not proper to praise such general. It's of course possible to gain even the highest path and fruits, if still living near and in certain association with pets (defilements), like if bound to parents, childs, master... but at the highest fruit, life from association with such, is impossible.

It's not proper to compare abounding of partner, children or even parents with abounding pet, now looking at this, seeing a monk keeping pets and care for them, what would you think? Or keeping behind ones children and care later about other young men, seek favor and association, yet not tend to seek for higher, but common, just for approval of their ways and views?

That is something worthy to think of, of what is the different of goodness and goodness and general hierarchy in regard of duties. If not taking care of ones parents but for pets, for example, or leaving behind good to serve worse and unvirtuose... such, even common, would be not really honest, or?

It may happen, that having abound all, certain beings, out of nissaya, upanissaya, may live near one, in what ever intent they might have and seek for. If they don't get of what they are up to, they would not stay long.

Beings with similar tendency gather together and seldom is it that "families" are changed, even to the ancestor ship of the Noble one.

Maybe also worthy to point out, that at Buddhas time, like today still in country areas, there have been not such strange broad association with pets as they clearly had only the purpose to gain from them, today not so clear, and therefore, normal undesirable becomes even desirable at large.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 03:19:49 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2018, 01:11:07 PM »

My person really ask you, near or far, associate and seek for people of integrity, who leave you opening for doubt. Don't waste time in much enjoying this or that when work should and can be done, here or there. Don't watch pets unwisily or even play with them around but try to increase samvega, that it is even not common to gain a pets existence. No, or not easy, merits can be made in this state.

MN 75 has actually less openings to speculate with nice "endings" anyway.

For one, having firm and strong faith, that eye and it's objects, ear and it's objects... intellect and it's objects, are not real, not lasting, suffering and no refuge, even if not seeing for himself as it is, for now, such person tends away from delight in sensuality, doing so, till he reaches the path, is no more able to fall down.

The more one who investigated intellectual, and one who has seen as it is, is a person having entered the stream, has a immeasurable mass of suffering behind, no more destinated for an animal womb and lower realms, heeded toward final awakening.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"In the same way, Magandiya, if I were to teach you the Dhamma — 'This is that freedom from Disease; this is that Unbinding' — and you on your part were to know that freedom from Disease and see that Unbinding, then together with the arising of your eyesight you would abandon whatever passion & delight you felt with regard for the five clinging-aggregates. And it would occur to you, 'My gosh, how long have I been fooled, cheated, & deceived by this mind! For in clinging, it was just form that I was clinging to... it was just feeling... just perception... just fabrications... just consciousness that I was clinging to. With my clinging as a requisite condition, there arises becoming... birth... aging & death... sorrow, lamentation, pains, distresses, & despairs. And thus is the origin of this entire mass of stress.'"

"I'm convinced, master Gotama, that you can teach me the Dhamma in such a way that I might rise up from this seat cured of my blindness."

"In that case, Magandiya, associate with men of integrity. When you associate with men of integrity, you will hear the true Dhamma. When you hear the true Dhamma, you will practice the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma. When you practice the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, you will know & see for yourself: 'These things are diseases, cancers, arrows. And here is where diseases, cancers, & arrows cease without trace. With the cessation of my clinging comes the cessation of becoming. With the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. With the cessation of birth then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

So, for now my person will step a little away here and pardons for often stressing with a tune of urgency and hard words not easy to take, it's already malaria and many disease time here and the own ways are good urged when dukkha is near and truth approaches more sense-able.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Visitor

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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2018, 07:03:40 PM »
Bhante, all,


Since I've been repeatedly asked to say something about this --

I'm speaking here as someone helping to take care of eight cats.
To begin with, this is how we came to have eight cats: At first we had only one. Before we adopted her, she was a stray cat that was wandering around the neighborhood, and we took her in out of mercy. The other seven are a mother and her six children (two litters, each of three). The mother of six was a stray cat who had kittens in our shed. At first, we wanted to give them to an animal shelter, but shelters here are full, they don't accept new animals. We also tried to find them a new home in some other way, but nobody wanted them. We also considered that even if an animal shelter were to accept them, they would most likely not be adopted by anyone, because they are too shy and not used to living indoors only. The animal shelter kills the cats that nobody adopts within one to three months. We didn't want this to happen. So we later adopted them. We sterilized all the females (five), and we plan to sterilize the males as well, so as to not produce more unwanted cats.
We live in the countryside, with a big garden, so it's not so crowded despite so many cats. Also, in my family, we've always had cats; it's always been normal to have cats.

Here in the countryside, there would normally be no stray cats, because all the cats would live on farms, and the farmers would kill the cats they don't want. The main reason why there are stray cats here is because people from the city abandon them. When they don't want to have a cat anymore, they take it to the countryside, throw it out of the car, and then we who live in the countryside have to take care of them. Also, one of the cats is black. Many people here have prejudice against black cats and don't want them and treat them very badly, and that was another reason we took her in.

A monk living in Thailand said that in Thailand, when people have cats they don't want, they bring them to the monastery, while in many other countries, people kill unwanted cats. So this is how there are sometimes many cats living in a monastery. A monk is appointed to look after them.

I think there are many reasons why people have cats, or pets in general. In the countryside, on farms, cats are usually kept to catch mice. Beyond that, I think that for many people, having a pet is the closest to experiencing unconditional love. For many people, having a pet is the main or the only source of gentleness and kindness in their lives. Some people feel that the animal is the only being for whom they can safely have affection.

Then there are dysfunctional families where the pet is a kind of psychological safe haven for the people, and a safe topic to talk about with other family members. In such families, even though the people don't care much about eachother, or are afraid of eachother, or distant to one another, they can still all care for the animal. Caring for the animal together like that can make life in such a family more bearable.

In my opinion, the people who have purebred cats and dogs as pets often see them as status symbols. They don't really care about the animal itself, they care just about the social status that having a particular breed of a purebred cat or dog implies. (The business with purebreds is brutal. Many kittens and puppies of purebred parents are killed; either because of some minor "flaw" or to artificially keep the price of the breed high.)

As for individual monks who keep animals as pets: I wonder about that too. Like I said above, some monks living in monasteries are assigned the duty to look after the monastery cats. Some monks seem to have deliberately adopted a pet. Of course, it's also possible that the animal sought out the monk, in the hope to be adopted by him. Perhaps the monk, out of mercy, gave the animal some food, and that was enough for the animal to want to stay with him.

Personally, one of the main reasons why I'm still interested in Buddhism despite all the difficulties, are the cats. I do care about them, and I feel responsible for them, not just in the ordinary worldly sense, but in religious terms as well. I have already outlived several cats, I have seen them die. I was there when they were tiny kittens, and then when they grew up, and eventually grew old and died from old age. This has been a sobering experience.  I don't know if there is rebirth. But if there is, I feel it is my responsibility that I do everything in my power to make sure that those beings that are currently our cats, get a good rebirth. I don't know how all this works, or how to come to know the truth about it, but mainly because of the cats, I feel responsible to learn and realize these things.

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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2018, 08:55:50 PM »
Whould modern person generally call house pet a sad and poor existence?

I've never found a person, in contemporary world, who seriously thinks that life as a animal would be really a good thing. Some may see as a good thing a life without responsabilities (a aspect of a pet's life), but overall, usually nobody would say that to be a animal is more advantageous than to be a human for obvious reasons. There is a gap between these two things.

If associating with being without virtue, lazy, without gratitude, without idea of ownership, with being just eating and sleeping, no idea of
making merits, selfish and only when a stranger enters, making "roof, roof, roof", sniffing the back... e.g. approving the pets duty, more
and more... it's clear that one will land there.

Knowing this, even seeing this, one should be clear, that pets, living in near association, in dependency of one, have strong Upanissaya to one,
are dear old relatives, and so should tread them dutyfull and nice like a family member, but in no way approve a pets behaviour or even, like
may, play with the thought "ohh, what a comfortable live". It's like if my person sees the "owner and pets"-family of Sutta central. Brahmas
and their Devas, trade, consume and wasting off possibilities, owner and slaves.

Apply the same strict value judgment to animals as it is applied to humans doesn't seems reasonable to me. After all, animals are... ...animals!
People tend to be more complacent towards animal's behavior simply because we all know that they are not endowed with the same intellect and discerniment as humans are. So I don't see the point of apply the same criterias of judgment to them as if they are humans. What would be a approvement of pet's behavior? Is plain complacency (taking their unfortunate condition in consideration) a approvement?


if behavior like a pet, an existence like a pet can be expected, if associate with pets in inproper way, it's a matter of nature to addopt
their ways. If wishing, thinking "pets-life is desireable", there are all ways to gain it.

Why/how a sane person would behave like his pet?


Pets do not make merits, and it's because someone gives them food easy avaliable, they will stay there and waste their time off...

Ok, but what else are they suppose to do other than this? and how? As mentioned before, they are deprived of intellect and discernment falcuties, how domestic animals would not rely on humans?

It's of course possible to gain even the highest path and fruits, if still living near and in certain association with pets (defilements), like if bound to parents,
childs, master... but at the highest fruit, life from association with such, is impossible.

There is a contradiction here. Is it possible or not?
highest fruit is nibbana?

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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2018, 01:23:29 AM »
Bhante, all,


Since I've been repeatedly asked to say something about this --

I'm speaking here as someone helping to take care of eight cats.
To begin with, this is how we came to have eight cats: At first we had only one. Before we adopted her, she was a stray cat that was wandering around the neighborhood, and we took her in out of mercy. The other seven are a mother and her six children (two litters, each of three). The mother of six was a stray cat who had kittens in our shed. At first, we wanted to give them to an animal shelter, but shelters here are full, they don't accept new animals. We also tried to find them a new home in some other way, but nobody wanted them. We also considered that even if an animal shelter were to accept them, they would most likely not be adopted by anyone, because they are too shy and not used to living indoors only. The animal shelter kills the cats that nobody adopts within one to three months. We didn't want this to happen. So we later adopted them. We sterilized all the females (five), and we plan to sterilize the males as well, so as to not produce more unwanted cats.
We live in the countryside, with a big garden, so it's not so crowded despite so many cats. Also, in my family, we've always had cats; it's always been normal to have cats.

Here in the countryside, there would normally be no stray cats, because all the cats would live on farms, and the farmers would kill the cats they don't want. The main reason why there are stray cats here is because people from the city abandon them. When they don't want to have a cat anymore, they take it to the countryside, throw it out of the car, and then we who live in the countryside have to take care of them. Also, one of the cats is black. Many people here have prejudice against black cats and don't want them and treat them very badly, and that was another reason we took her in.

A monk living in Thailand said that in Thailand, when people have cats they don't want, they bring them to the monastery, while in many other countries, people kill unwanted cats. So this is how there are sometimes many cats living in a monastery. A monk is appointed to look after them.

I think there are many reasons why people have cats, or pets in general. In the countryside, on farms, cats are usually kept to catch mice. Beyond that, I think that for many people, having a pet is the closest to experiencing unconditional love. For many people, having a pet is the main or the only source of gentleness and kindness in their lives. Some people feel that the animal is the only being for whom they can safely have affection.

Then there are dysfunctional families where the pet is a kind of psychological safe haven for the people, and a safe topic to talk about with other family members. In such families, even though the people don't care much about eachother, or are afraid of eachother, or distant to one another, they can still all care for the animal. Caring for the animal together like that can make life in such a family more bearable.

In my opinion, the people who have purebred cats and dogs as pets often see them as status symbols. They don't really care about the animal itself, they care just about the social status that having a particular breed of a purebred cat or dog implies. (The business with purebreds is brutal. Many kittens and puppies of purebred parents are killed; either because of some minor "flaw" or to artificially keep the price of the breed high.)

As for individual monks who keep animals as pets: I wonder about that too. Like I said above, some monks living in monasteries are assigned the duty to look after the monastery cats. Some monks seem to have deliberately adopted a pet. Of course, it's also possible that the animal sought out the monk, in the hope to be adopted by him. Perhaps the monk, out of mercy, gave the animal some food, and that was enough for the animal to want to stay with him.

Personally, one of the main reasons why I'm still interested in Buddhism despite all the difficulties, are the cats. I do care about them, and I feel responsible for them, not just in the ordinary worldly sense, but in religious terms as well. I have already outlived several cats, I have seen them die. I was there when they were tiny kittens, and then when they grew up, and eventually grew old and died from old age. This has been a sobering experience.  I don't know if there is rebirth. But if there is, I feel it is my responsibility that I do everything in my power to make sure that those beings that are currently our cats, get a good rebirth. I don't know how all this works, or how to come to know the truth about it, but mainly because of the cats, I feel responsible to learn and realize these things.

Nyom Binocular,
as the origin of this topic, it is clear seen, that "love" binds to either the cats at home or "pets" DW. Nevertheless, the message here stands. What ever tend and devoted to, to that one falls.

And, if not done yet, don't ever sterilize, approve or order. Let being be there way. Wish to control and "love" is for all the reason for even harder pain at least.

And monks are neither appointable to do so, nor allowed to take on such task. They just fear, if not seeking socialization direct with animals, favor and livelihood. Fools.

May Nyom reflect this topic and by it really deep into Dhamma. Sozial disfunction, gender problems, no children, pets behavior, all modern issues... they have causes in a pets world.

Don't sacrifice downward. Duties are good if fulfilled, but nothing more.
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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2018, 01:32:51 AM »
Whould modern person generally call house pet a sad and poor existence?

I've never found a person, in contemporary world, who seriously thinks that life as a animal would be really a good thing. Some may see as a good thing a life without responsabilities (a aspect of a pet's life), but overall, usually nobody would say that to be a animal is more advantageous than to be a human for obvious reasons. There is a gap between these two things.
[/quote]
It seems to be clear that Nyom does not know much obout the world and lifes of beings but is merely informed by new media. So it's good to travel much, get known beings and their lifes.

Quote
If associating with being without virtue, lazy, without gratitude, without idea of ownership, with being just eating and sleeping, no idea of
making merits, selfish and only when a stranger enters, making "roof, roof, roof", sniffing the back... e.g. approving the pets duty, more
and more... it's clear that one will land there.

Knowing this, even seeing this, one should be clear, that pets, living in near association, in dependency of one, have strong Upanissaya to one,
are dear old relatives, and so should tread them dutyfull and nice like a family member, but in no way approve a pets behaviour or even, like
may, play with the thought "ohh, what a comfortable live". It's like if my person sees the "owner and pets"-family of Sutta central. Brahmas
and their Devas, trade, consume and wasting off possibilities, owner and slaves.

Apply the same strict value judgment to animals as it is applied to humans doesn't seems reasonable to me. After all, animals are... ...animals!
People tend to be more complacent towards animal's behavior simply because we all know that they are not endowed with the same intellect and discerniment as humans are. So I don't see the point of apply the same criterias of judgment to them as if they are humans. What would be a approvement of pet's behavior? Is plain complacency (taking their unfortunate condition in consideration) a approvement?
Mind and body are two things. While it is difficult to change body kammas effects, on mind ones existence can be changed. If finding that barking is not proper, it would be possible to abound dog-like behaviour.

Quote
if behavior like a pet, an existence like a pet can be expected, if associate with pets in inproper way, it's a matter of nature to addopt
their ways. If wishing, thinking "pets-life is desireable", there are all ways to gain it.

Why/how a sane person would behave like his pet?
There are less not really sane people behaviour like dogs or other animals, starting greed.
Quote
Pets do not make merits, and it's because someone gives them food easy avaliable, they will stay there and waste their time off...

Ok, but what else are they suppose to do other than this? and how? As mentioned before, they are deprived of intellect and discernment falcuties, how domestic animals would not rely on humans?
Even if in a human state (body), many are (had deprived them) deprived of intellect and discernment, and as domestic beings relay on humans... or socialism... iat places where pets-like being is dominant.
Quote
It's of course possible to gain even the highest path and fruits, if still living near and in certain association with pets (defilements), like if bound to parents,
childs, master... but at the highest fruit, life from association with such, is impossible.

There is a contradiction here. Is it possible or not?
highest fruit is nibbana?
No "it is possible that one may obtain...". Yes Nibbana is the highest fruit.

Nyom Danilo , you may think as you like. My person sees no usefull point here and aside of doubt and search for excuses is not found. It is merely a useless debate. But as told, maybe to less patient by my person, sure you even do not know malaria. You wouldn't understand anything at the right place for now. But there is less not possible with proper faith and urged effort.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 02:02:54 AM by Johann »
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Sterilization - Castration, a matter of compassion or just unskilfull?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2018, 04:51:14 PM »
* Johann : Since this matter is actually a serious, and as it is actually astry the topic here, a cut was made, hopefully at a line that leaves both important topics in modern times alive to keep on investigation aside of common usual ways. Both are very "political incorrect" approaches in a very wired modern world, and of cource not easy to bear, or better penetrate. It's good to try to find the reasons and release here and there, totally against the grain.

Aramika   *

Ein oder mehrer Beiträge wurden hier im Thema abgeschnitten und damit in neues Thema "Sterilization - Castration, a matter of compassion or just unskilfull? " eröffnet, dem angehäng.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 05:01:20 PM by Johann »
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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2018, 05:19:05 PM »
Why does one sacrifices downward? Does it make one feel better with actually less real sacrifices? Isn't it not all but food for conceit?
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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2018, 08:07:52 AM »
If seeking for other western Ajahn Chah monks devoted to pets-duty practice, of cause you match them in relation of Brahm in the sugar-mountain (zuckerberg) realms:

What a nonsens and leading people to gain pets rebirth...
http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,8467.0.html

How poor must one be in heart to be of such corruption and low politic for poor becoming... of cause Brahm would neither check nor see his tail. That is why the Buddha didn't left it to your own judgment in regard of defilements but to seek for admirable friend, not pets or pets keeper. Seeking after right livelihood and holly live rather to make a living in pets entertaining and sharing crackers...

It's possible time to finish this "emergency" visit of the realms of pets and hungry ghost like existence and put left fuel into worthy
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Re: Association with pets - Associated rebith?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2019, 05:42:45 AM »
The "sad" reality of not grasping the Dhamma and not even respecting Vinaya... the animal heritage: how pleasant... this touching and calling it Brahmacariya



Suidide Monk worshipping, and "The man and the mountains "-romantic...

http://www.hillsidehermitage.org/

It's known told that animals at monasteries are used to have been monks and nuns, not so really observing the Vinaya and engaged in lower sense pleasure.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "It is in accordance with their properties that beings come together & associate with one another. Beings of low dispositions come together & associate with beings of low dispositions. Beings of admirable dispositions come together & associate with beings of admirable dispositions. In the past, it was in accordance with their properties that beings came together & associated with one another... In the future, it will be in accordance with their properties that beings will come together & associate with one another... And now at present, it is in accordance with their properties that beings come together & associate with one another. Beings of low dispositions come together & associate with beings of low dispositions. Beings of admirable dispositions come together & associate with beings of admirable dispositions."


The underbrush born
of association
is cut away
by non-association.
Just as one riding
a small wooden plank
   would sink
in the great sea,
so does even one of right living
   sink,
associating with the lazy.

So avoid the lazy,
those with low persistence.
Live with the noble ones —
secluded, resolute, absorbed in jhana,
their persistence constantly aroused
         : the wise.

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