* *

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Recent Topics

[Today at 06:34:44 PM]

[Today at 05:38:02 PM]

[Today at 05:21:09 PM]

[Today at 12:57:57 PM]

[Today at 11:45:21 AM]

[Today at 11:08:15 AM]

[Today at 10:20:19 AM]

[Today at 09:48:37 AM]

[Today at 06:05:37 AM]

[October 17, 2018, 04:15:34 PM]

[October 17, 2018, 12:35:31 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 04:14:38 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 04:06:49 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 12:27:08 PM]

[October 16, 2018, 10:58:44 AM]

[October 16, 2018, 10:04:06 AM]

[October 16, 2018, 08:36:14 AM]

[October 15, 2018, 11:40:47 AM]

[October 15, 2018, 01:04:28 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 06:02:30 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 05:48:30 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 02:28:52 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 12:43:18 PM]

[October 12, 2018, 10:41:10 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 04:43:13 AM]

[October 12, 2018, 04:33:02 AM]

[October 09, 2018, 10:08:20 AM]

[October 09, 2018, 06:48:13 AM]

[October 08, 2018, 02:12:05 PM]

[October 08, 2018, 09:34:16 AM]

[October 07, 2018, 04:58:08 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 04:16:43 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 03:54:26 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 03:41:07 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 02:27:45 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 12:57:09 PM]

[October 07, 2018, 12:51:04 PM]

[October 06, 2018, 02:25:16 PM]

by gus
[October 06, 2018, 01:13:54 PM]

[October 06, 2018, 11:43:45 AM]

[October 06, 2018, 04:06:18 AM]

[October 06, 2018, 01:29:35 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 05:04:21 PM]

[October 05, 2018, 04:34:09 PM]

[October 05, 2018, 11:50:59 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 11:36:35 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 09:04:24 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 08:54:45 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 07:06:32 AM]

[October 05, 2018, 07:02:28 AM]

Author Topic: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth  (Read 1261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« on: April 16, 2018, 02:11:04 AM »
What about association with the Devas? Did Guest ever came in touch or even have connections?

What does Guest think? Is it of benefit for one? How far is it such or endless?
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

  • Aramika
  • Regular Member / Normales Mitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +14/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 07:53:38 PM »
As far as I know, in the pali canon, to have contact with devas would require supernatural powers. People who claims to have supernatural power is quite rare, and people who claims to have supernatural powers and is not lying is even more rare. Thus, I doubt if there is somebody here who would be able to address the questions made by bhante on account of his/her own personal experience.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 01:19:35 AM »
The question is: "Would it be good to associate with Devas? Would it be good to give into it?", Nyom Danilo ?

People used to associate with the Devas since uncountable times, much much longer than common with pets.

The contact with the Devas of the Kamaloka is reached by generosity, virtue and wisdom, all of which are not really supernatural, of course not common. Higher realm require Jhana and even that is not that supernatural. Surely it's easier to be in relation of equal and lower, but what about the difference of being honored and protected by Devas or dogs, Gods or clansmen?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 01:47:05 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Sophorn

  • Global Aramikini
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +183/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 08:36:46 AM »
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante,
Valued Danilo,
to encounter Devas one doesn't need to develop supernatural powers.
But I agree that you have to be calm and collected to be able to sense Devas.
They live in realms that are calmer than our normal living spaces. Plants are a good place for Devas to dwell. That's why traditionally incense sticks, flowers or perfume are offered at pujas or holy places to call Devas.
Making yourself clean and clear in body, mind and emotions would be a natural way to draw devas close.

For what purpose? To join merits.
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Offline Danilo

  • Aramika
  • Regular Member / Normales Mitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +14/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2018, 03:35:42 AM »
Bhante Johann and Sophorn,
If it's not a matter of supernatural abilities, then why is not possible to come in contact with a deva, right now, through natural means?
   

The question is: "Would it be good to associate with Devas? Would it be good to give into it?", Nyom Danilo ?

I don't know anything about devas (apart of their deptiction as beings whose lead their lives with ease in higher realms). But if nibbana is one's goal, then the highest benefit would be association with those who are committed with the same goal.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +347/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2018, 04:40:00 AM »
Atma trust that Nyom Danilo 's health is well and he does not lack of anything important this days.

Bhante Johann and Sophorn,
If it's not a matter of supernatural abilities, then why is not possible to come in contact with a deva, right now, through natural means?

As told before, Nyom, generosity, Sila and as Nyom Sophorn told, certain level of concentration and attention is required. Just give it a serious practice, without thinking to much on certain perception of the aim, is important and if the focus is perfect on the training it self, it's just natural.

Sometimes (for many never, for some all the time) one might have the merits and past near relation, like for example the first two followers of the Buddha, to meet the Devas even on more raw level of awareness:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.I.4.2) Now on that occasion the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika were traveling on the road from Ukkalā to that district. Then a devatā who had been a blood-relative of Tapussa and Bhallika said to the merchants, “There is the Blessed One, my dears, staying at the root of the Rājāyatana tree, newly fully awakened. Go and serve the Blessed One cooked grain-meal and honey balls. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness.”

(Mv.I.4.3) Then the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika, taking cooked grain-meal and honey balls, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As they were standing there, the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika said to the Blessed One, “Lord, May the Blessed One accept our cooked grain-meal and honey balls, for that will be for our long-term welfare & happiness.”

(Mv.I.4.4) Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, “Tathāgatas do not accept things with their hands. How shall I accept the cooked grain-meal and honey balls?” Then the Four Great Kings, having known with their awareness the train of thought in the Blessed One’s awareness, presented four stone bowls from the four directions to the Blessed One, (thinking) “May the Blessed One accept the cooked grain-meal and honey balls here [in the bowls].” The Blessed One accepted the exquisite stone bowls and the cooked grain-meal and honey balls. Having accepted them, he consumed them.

(Mv.I.4.5) Then the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika [knowing that the Blessed One had finished his meal and withdrawn his hand from the bowl, fell down with their heads at the Blessed One’s feet and][2] said to the Blessed One, “We go to the Blessed One for refuge, & to the Dhamma. May the Blessed One remember us as lay followers who have gone for refuge from this day forward, for life.”

And they were the first two-statement[3] lay followers in the world.

Another food for thoughts: observe certain animals like ants or bugs and look if they might be aware of the human realm and humans. Or a group of childs: look if they would be aware of a special person or special things for you,when it is right next to them.

Or, if wishing to meet a rock-star, eventually become one, what is the reason to meet?
   
The question is: "Would it be good to associate with Devas? Would it be good to give into it?", Nyom Danilo ?

I don't know anything about devas (apart of their deptiction as beings whose lead their lives with ease in higher realms). But if nibbana is one's goal, then the highest benefit would be association with those who are committed with the same goal.

Does Nyom Danilo think that there was even a single individual, who reached liberation, in the past, is in the present and will be, who did not, does not, will not associate much and formost with the devas and gods?

Even those who gain auspicious aims within the human realm have done, do, and will do such in good association with the Devas.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

In whatever place
a wise person makes his dwelling,
    — there providing food
for the virtuous,
   the restrained,
   leaders of the holy life —
he should dedicate that offering
to the devas there.
They, receiving honor, will honor him;
being respected, will show him respect.
As a result, they will feel sympathy for him,
   like that of a mother for her child, her son.
A person with whom the devas sympathize
   always meets with auspicious things.

"Those committed to Nibbana": aside of those gaining highest fruit in a human existence, all (aside of some previous Stream-enterer) individuals headed to Nibbana dwell in the Deva-Realms, have a Deva existence attained right now and all of the times. It's on the other side possible that the human realm is void of Noble ones.

And just as information: if Nyom Danilo did not, do not actually strong relations and support of Devas, he would never ever have appeared in this particular Brahma-host of paranimmita-vasavatti deva and nimmanarati deva here. Such would be near to impossible, not to speak of not suddenly fall away from this realm.

Honor and devotion toward Devas, dedication of ones sacrifices (saddha) means to give toward those in front, having come first, who are more exalted in real treasures .

Bhante Paññobhāsa gave once generously a nice description of the diffent realms of existence and their beings kind, if wishing to explore a little.

And it's importand that strong faith or knowing, association with the different kinds of Devas is a fundamental aspect of right view.

Mudita
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 06:52:56 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

  • Sanghamitta
  • Full Member / Vollmitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +16/-0
Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 09:52:22 AM »
Forgive me of intruding,

If everyone could see devas through natural means, then all of them will start to practice virtues. Then who will fill up hells? The Mara will never let that happen.

Though we don't possess supernatural powers, devas do. If a deva needs to meet us for any special reason they can do it.


*  There is a way to meet a Deva in this very life:

  • Crying in a forest right after having practiced meditation for 30 years. When you are crying, a goddess will appear and cry as well. When you ask why, she will say "if nibbana can be attained by crying, then why shouldn't I cry". (a similar story is in texts )

*Please don't take the above serious. It is a joke.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 10:03:26 AM by gus »

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])
 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

gus

October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "

Show 50 latest