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Author Topic: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth  (Read 18079 times)

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Offline Johann

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Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« on: April 16, 2018, 07:11:04 AM »
What about association with the Devas? Did Guest ever came in touch or even have connections?

What does Guest think? Is it of benefit for one? How far is it such or endless?
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2018, 12:53:38 AM »
As far as I know, in the pali canon, to have contact with devas would require supernatural powers. People who claims to have supernatural power is quite rare, and people who claims to have supernatural powers and is not lying is even more rare. Thus, I doubt if there is somebody here who would be able to address the questions made by bhante on account of his/her own personal experience.

Offline Johann

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 06:19:35 AM »
The question is: "Would it be good to associate with Devas? Would it be good to give into it?", Nyom Danilo ?

People used to associate with the Devas since uncountable times, much much longer than common with pets.

The contact with the Devas of the Kamaloka is reached by generosity, virtue and wisdom, all of which are not really supernatural, of course not common. Higher realm require Jhana and even that is not that supernatural. Surely it's easier to be in relation of equal and lower, but what about the difference of being honored and protected by Devas or dogs, Gods or clansmen?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 06:47:05 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Sophorn

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 01:36:46 PM »
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante,
Valued Danilo,
to encounter Devas one doesn't need to develop supernatural powers.
But I agree that you have to be calm and collected to be able to sense Devas.
They live in realms that are calmer than our normal living spaces. Plants are a good place for Devas to dwell. That's why traditionally incense sticks, flowers or perfume are offered at pujas or holy places to call Devas.
Making yourself clean and clear in body, mind and emotions would be a natural way to draw devas close.

For what purpose? To join merits.
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Offline Danilo

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2018, 08:35:42 AM »
Bhante Johann and Sophorn,
If it's not a matter of supernatural abilities, then why is not possible to come in contact with a deva, right now, through natural means?
   

The question is: "Would it be good to associate with Devas? Would it be good to give into it?", Nyom Danilo ?

I don't know anything about devas (apart of their deptiction as beings whose lead their lives with ease in higher realms). But if nibbana is one's goal, then the highest benefit would be association with those who are committed with the same goal.

Offline Johann

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2018, 09:40:00 AM »
Atma trust that Nyom Danilo 's health is well and he does not lack of anything important this days.

Bhante Johann and Sophorn,
If it's not a matter of supernatural abilities, then why is not possible to come in contact with a deva, right now, through natural means?

As told before, Nyom, generosity, Sila and as Nyom Sophorn told, certain level of concentration and attention is required. Just give it a serious practice, without thinking to much on certain perception of the aim, is important and if the focus is perfect on the training it self, it's just natural.

Sometimes (for many never, for some all the time) one might have the merits and past near relation, like for example the first two followers of the Buddha, to meet the Devas even on more raw level of awareness:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.I.4.2) Now on that occasion the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika were traveling on the road from Ukkalā to that district. Then a devatā who had been a blood-relative of Tapussa and Bhallika said to the merchants, “There is the Blessed One, my dears, staying at the root of the Rājāyatana tree, newly fully awakened. Go and serve the Blessed One cooked grain-meal and honey balls. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness.”

(Mv.I.4.3) Then the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika, taking cooked grain-meal and honey balls, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As they were standing there, the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika said to the Blessed One, “Lord, May the Blessed One accept our cooked grain-meal and honey balls, for that will be for our long-term welfare & happiness.”

(Mv.I.4.4) Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, “Tathāgatas do not accept things with their hands. How shall I accept the cooked grain-meal and honey balls?” Then the Four Great Kings, having known with their awareness the train of thought in the Blessed One’s awareness, presented four stone bowls from the four directions to the Blessed One, (thinking) “May the Blessed One accept the cooked grain-meal and honey balls here [in the bowls].” The Blessed One accepted the exquisite stone bowls and the cooked grain-meal and honey balls. Having accepted them, he consumed them.

(Mv.I.4.5) Then the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika [knowing that the Blessed One had finished his meal and withdrawn his hand from the bowl, fell down with their heads at the Blessed One’s feet and][2] said to the Blessed One, “We go to the Blessed One for refuge, & to the Dhamma. May the Blessed One remember us as lay followers who have gone for refuge from this day forward, for life.”

And they were the first two-statement[3] lay followers in the world.

Another food for thoughts: observe certain animals like ants or bugs and look if they might be aware of the human realm and humans. Or a group of childs: look if they would be aware of a special person or special things for you,when it is right next to them.

Or, if wishing to meet a rock-star, eventually become one, what is the reason to meet?
   
The question is: "Would it be good to associate with Devas? Would it be good to give into it?", Nyom Danilo ?

I don't know anything about devas (apart of their deptiction as beings whose lead their lives with ease in higher realms). But if nibbana is one's goal, then the highest benefit would be association with those who are committed with the same goal.

Does Nyom Danilo think that there was even a single individual, who reached liberation, in the past, is in the present and will be, who did not, does not, will not associate much and formost with the devas and gods?

Even those who gain auspicious aims within the human realm have done, do, and will do such in good association with the Devas.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

In whatever place
a wise person makes his dwelling,
    — there providing food
for the virtuous,
   the restrained,
   leaders of the holy life —
he should dedicate that offering
to the devas there.
They, receiving honor, will honor him;
being respected, will show him respect.
As a result, they will feel sympathy for him,
   like that of a mother for her child, her son.
A person with whom the devas sympathize
   always meets with auspicious things.

"Those committed to Nibbana": aside of those gaining highest fruit in a human existence, all (aside of some previous Stream-enterer) individuals headed to Nibbana dwell in the Deva-Realms, have a Deva existence attained right now and all of the times. It's on the other side possible that the human realm is void of Noble ones.

And just as information: if Nyom Danilo did not, do not actually strong relations and support of Devas, he would never ever have appeared in this particular Brahma-host of paranimmita-vasavatti deva and nimmanarati deva here. Such would be near to impossible, not to speak of not suddenly fall away from this realm.

Honor and devotion toward Devas, dedication of ones sacrifices (saddha) means to give toward those in front, having come first, who are more exalted in real treasures .

Bhante Paññobhāsa gave once generously a nice description of the diffent realms of existence and their beings kind, if wishing to explore a little.

And it's importand that strong faith or knowing, association with the different kinds of Devas is a fundamental aspect of right view.

Mudita
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 11:52:56 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 02:52:22 PM »
Forgive me of intruding,

If everyone could see devas through natural means, then all of them will start to practice virtues. Then who will fill up hells? The Mara will never let that happen.

Though we don't possess supernatural powers, devas do. If a deva needs to meet us for any special reason they can do it.


*  There is a way to meet a Deva in this very life:

  • Crying in a forest right after having practiced meditation for 30 years. When you are crying, a goddess will appear and cry as well. When you ask why, she will say "if nibbana can be attained by crying, then why shouldn't I cry". (a similar story is in texts )

*Please don't take the above serious. It is a joke.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 03:03:26 PM by gus »

Offline Danilo

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2019, 07:45:18 AM »
Does Nyom Danilo think that there was even a single individual, who reached liberation, in the past, is in the present and will be, who did not, does not, will not associate much and formost with the devas and gods?

Even those who gain auspicious aims within the human realm have done, do, and will do such in good association with the Devas.

...

"Those committed to Nibbana": aside of those gaining highest fruit in a human existence, all (aside of some previous Stream-enterer) individuals headed to Nibbana dwell in the Deva-Realms, have a Deva existence attained right now and all of the times. It's on the other side possible that the human realm is void of Noble ones.

...

Honor and devotion toward Devas, dedication of ones sacrifices (saddha) means to give toward those in front, having come first, who are more exalted in real treasures .

...

And it's importand that strong faith or knowing, association with the different kinds of Devas is a fundamental aspect of right view.

If association with devas is a good thing and "Those committed to Nibbana" will be reborn in deva realms. Why the devata mentioned in the Samiddhi Sutta instigate a bhikkhu to pursue sense pleasures and is unable to grasp the Buddha's teachings?

Also, I've read ( The Thirty-one Planes of Existence  ) that Mara is a inhabitant of the realm "Devas Wielding Power over the Creation of Others". This doesn't make him/her a deva/devata? And the "Great Brahma" ("Great Brahmas" realm) is described as a deluded being.

How could a supposed association with the devata mentioned in the Samiddhi Sutta, Mara or the "Great Brahma" be a good thing?


And just as information: if Nyom Danilo did not, do not actually strong relations and support of Devas, he would never ever have appeared in this particular Brahma-host of paranimmita-vasavatti deva and nimmanarati deva here. Such would be near to impossible, not to speak of not suddenly fall away from this realm.

With "Brahma-host of paranimmita-vasavatti deva and nimmanarati deva" is Bhante refering to sangham.net? Is this metaphorical?

Offline Johann

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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2019, 11:53:24 AM »
The path, Nyom Danilo , is one up, going throught higher and more refined realms. It is not one that gives into equal and lower. Only one who gives into, associates with higher will have success. Of course the stages on the path are not the destination, but means.

When Nyom Danilo dwells here, he dwells with the mighty Brahmas who created this realm, physical by their merits and mental, by there goodness. Association with the good Devas and Brahmas of the heritage of goodness, that of the Noble Ones, is the reason why one gains relation and becomes sooner or later such a Brahman as well, one heeded toward Nibbana.

Also worthy to think about, even there are many not desire final liberation, in regard of next existence: Noble ones, those having gained Path, will, because of their relation and association be born under the Devas, Brahmas and if gaining a human birth in families of Brahmans (families of good stand). Even no returner will, because of their association, inclination build with it, reappear in the fine material realms.

If one does not like refined food, does not desire after it and associate with those nourishing and sharing it, one can not access this areas, can not access the path.

For one without relation, others can not help. Not related, not having become relative, no Upanissaya toward the Buddha and Sublime, Buddhas and Sublime can not help one. Such is impossible. That being so important is the reason why giving into, generosity, has to come first, would not work otherwise. No-one can lift another if he has not given into at first place.

"I desire the aim but don't like the path and those guiding, going it, or there", wouldn't work.

Quote from: Upasaka Danilo
Also, I've read ( The Thirty-one Planes of Existence  ) that Mara is a inhabitant of the realm "Devas Wielding Power over the Creation of Others". This doesn't make him/her a deva/devata? And the "Great Brahma" ("Great Brahmas" realm) is described as a deluded being.

The whole page is not very pleasing and it's seldom to find a western, modern, mind, with no doubts and right view. That being the reason only the negative things in regard of Devas and Brahmas are stated. Yet we know that recollecting the Devas-virtues and Right View are the basics to build on. Often people "throw away the baby with the water of the basin", seeking perfection and not understanding that the path is "imperfect" but perfect because it leads to the Unconditioned, so also called real and right.

May it be of help for finding desire in being related to above and beyond.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 01:47:07 PM by Johann »
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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2019, 10:44:49 AM »
And further:

While they can be binding on the path, the association with Devas and Brahmas in required to go beyond and starts with accepting right view.

A Sutta, which transports the need as well the dangers, althought not easy to grasp right, is:

AN 2.35: Samacitta Sutta — Minds in Tune
“Friends, I will teach you about the individual interiorly fettered and the one exteriorly fettered. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”...


Also related: Modern "hierarchy" and devotion - obstacles: āgati & agati


And how do the follower of the Noble ones use the association with the Devas and Brahmas? Following the cleaning technics of the Noble Ones , doing the Uposatha duty:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"[Again, the Uposatha of the Noble Ones] is the cleansing of the mind through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique?

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas, thus: 'There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Yama Devas, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when gold is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is gold cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of a furnace, salt earth, red chalk, a blow-pipe, tongs, & the appropriate human effort. This is how gold is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas... As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Deva-Uposatha. He lives with the devas. It is owing to the devas that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and that whatever defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is how the mind is cleansed through the proper technique.

Once someone, by faith in the Tripple Gems, generosity, Virtue, has gained access toward the Brahmas, able to join their reunion, ones mind is proper prepeared to hear the teachings of disadvantages, renounciation and the Dhamma of the Arahats.

If one access as poor person on the high teachings it would be often just the Uposatha of the wolf , the "beggars-renounciation", and as soon as pleasures in the sensual realms arise, he would turn away from his practice, join the pleasures of the Devas.

Only for one knows all realms in this world can let go of their lures. For the fox and the graps there is not much hope and his incapacity excuses will not find ends.
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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2019, 07:00:04 AM »
As the Buddha praised to know many families, their ways and situation, so that one would not mistake a pleasing seeming dwelling for Nibbana, he also traveled through the worlds of Devas, got them known, understood the causes and effects on more subtle level, and there is also a Sutta on this, Nyom Danilo , just having got aware of it:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

4. Gayàsãsasuttaü Ý At the source of river Gaya

64. At one time The Blessed One was abiding at the source of river Gaya. From there The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus:

ßBhikkhus, when I was a seeker of enlightenment, not yet enlightened, I perceived light did not see forms.

Bhikkhus, it occured to me: `If I perceive light and see forms, my knowledge and vision should be more pure'

Bhikkhus, in the meantime I abode diligent to dispel and perceived light and saw forms. I did not stand with those gods did not talk with them and discuss with them.

Bhikkhus, it occured to me-'If I perceive light, see forms, stand with those gods, talk and discuss with them, my knowledge and vision will be still more pure.

Bhikkhus, in the meantime I abode diligent to dispel and perceived light, saw forms stood with them, talked and discussed with them. Yet did not know, to which clan of gods they belonged.

Bhikkhus, it occured to me-'If I perceive light, see forms, stand with those gods, talk and discuss with them, and know to which clan of gods they belonged my knowledge and vision will be still more pure.

Bhikkhus, in the meantime I abode diligent to dispel and perceived light, saw forms stood with them, talked and discussed with them and knew, to which and which clans of gods they belonged- Yet I did not know, these gods disappeared from here and were born there as a result of this action ... re ... I knew those gods -'These gods as a result of this action disappeared from here and were born there': ... re ... I knew those gods-'On account of this action disappearing from here were born there. I did not know, these gods on account of this action enjoyed these supports and these pleasant and unpleasant feelings ... re ... I knew those gods on account of this action enjoyed these supports and these pleasant and unpleasant feelings. I did not know on account of this action these gods enjoyed long life and a long standing - I knew on account of this action these gods enjoyed long life and this long standing. Yet I did not know whether I lived with them earlier or did not lived with them earlier.

Bhikkhus, it occured to me: If I perceive light, see forms, stand with those gods, talk and discuss with them, and know these gods belong to this clan of gods. These gods disappeared from here and were born there on account of this action. And know those gods enjoyed these supports and these pleasant and unpleasant feelings and know these gods enjoyed long life and a long standing on accout of the results of this action my knowledge and vision will be still more pure.

Bhikkhus, in the meantime I abode diligent to dispel and perceived light, saw forms stood with them, talked and discussed with them and knew, to which and which clans of gods they belonged- I knew, these gods disappeared from here and were born there as a result of this action. I knew those gods on account of this action enjoyed these supports and these pleasant and unpleasant feelings ... re ... I knew those gods on account of this action enjoyed these supports and these pleasant and unpleasant feelings. I knew on account of this action these gods enjoyed long life and this long standing. I knew whether I lived with them earlier or did not lived with them earlier.

Bhikkhus, until my knowledge and vision of higher gods in this eightfold cycle was completely pure I did not acknowledge my rightful enlightenment to the world together with its gods Màra, Brahma and to the Community of recluses and Brahmins.

Bhikkhus, when my knowledge and vision of higher gods in this eightfold cycle was completely pure I acknowledged my rightful enlightenment to the world together with its gods Màra, Brahma and the Community of recluses and Brahmins. Knowledge and vision arose to me, my release of mind was immovable. This is my last birth. Now there is no more birth.
Quote from: AN 8... Uppalavanna Sister
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Re: Association with the Devas - associated Rebirth
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2019, 06:04:21 PM »

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

9. Devatāsuttaṁ
The gods


[002.09] “Bhikkhus, in the recent past, when the night was waning, many gods illuminated the whole of Jeta's grove with a resplendent light, approached me, stood on a side and said:

'Venerable sir, we approached some humans who had gone forth from the household in the past, they attended on us, did not worship us. Venerable sir, they seem to be with incomplete activity, with repentance, carrying out duties later, born in a lower state.

Bhikkhus, even before that, when the night was waning, many gods illuminated the whole of Jeta's grove with a resplendent light, approached me, stood on a side and said:

'Venerable sir, we approached some humans who had gone forth from the household in the past they attended on us, worshipped us, gave us seats, did not communicate according to their ability, … re … communicated according to their ability, … re.. Did not sit to listen to the Teaching, … re … sat to listen to the Teaching, did not listen to the Teaching attentively, … re … listened to the Teaching attentively, did not bear the Teaching in the mind, bore the Teaching in the mind, did not search meanings in the Teaching they heard, … re … sought for meanings in the Teaching they had heard, did not live according to the Teaching after searching the meanings in the Teaching, Venerable sir, they seem to be with incomplete activity, with repentance, carrying out duties later, born in a lower state.

Bhikkhus, even before that, when the night was waning, many gods illuminated the whole of Jeta's grove with a resplendent light, approached me, stood on a side and said:

'Venerable sir, we approached some humans who had gone forth from the household in the past, they attended on us, worshipped us, gave us seats, communicated with us according to their ability, sat to listen to the Teaching, listened to the Teaching attentively, bore the Teaching in the mind, lived according to the Teaching after searching the meanings in the Teaching, Venerable sir, they seem to be with complete activity, without repentance, had carried out duties at the right time and are born in an exalted state.

Bhikkhus, concentrate, do not be negligent and repent later like those said gods.
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