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Author Topic: [Q&A] Is Nibbana 'here and now' wrong or right view?  (Read 585 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] Is Nibbana 'here and now' wrong or right view?
« on: May 01, 2018, 03:08:15 PM »
Is Nibbana 'here and now' wrong or right view?

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

Since it lead often to discussion and might be in this, or that way missunderstood.
As state as one kind of group of wrong view in, for example DN 1 , it needs to be right understood that this 'here and now'-view covers the idea of here and now, in this or that sensual world, either in the sphere of the wordilt pleasures, of in refined states of mind, in the Jhanas, connected with sensuality and a notion of "but when this self" in fine sensual, mind-object spheres. One could understand this kind of 'here and now' also as here and now in the khandhas, or here and now in nama-rupa. To find Nibbana there, such is impossible and wrong view.

This view is often held by certain Nihilistic Jhana friends, and of course also the drive of the huge Meditation-business and really not a good, since not seldom those people have no fear in wrongdoing, and neglect consquences, at the same time, having for now, a while a good trained mind of householder-equanimity.

Just look on the virtue of people, their engagements in wordily things and politic, and if tracing such elements in an Element, is actually easy to recognize grave wrong view.

BUT:

It is clear, that 'here and now' is the most accurate placement of Nibbana and in it's case has nothing more to do with view, but also being aware and believe, that Nibbana can be attained right here and now, by dropping the clinging aggregates, is of course right view.

An idea that Nibbana can only be attained in a "next world", e.g. not in this very "existence" is not supported by those having made known and realiced by themselves, here and now, the cessation of suffering.

May it help those eager after liberation and not after profiling of a sense of self and own in views.

The view, that Nibbana is only attained by the break off of the body (an aggregate already detached by an Arahat) is merely a view developed by Commentators, but yes, might be in as far the better choice, since overestimation does not have that much place to request ones assumings. On the other hand, this view has all to often lead to such foolishness like suicide.

So it's really importand to get it right and focus more on details, traceable, such as desire for being or not-being, notions of self or sensual desires.

Of(f) cause, there are also Brahm's who suggest notions like "we are right here in pure land, western world", which gives food for a lot of views, yes.

SO:

May you read, and pay close attention:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa


THE SELF’S UNBINDING IN THE HERE-&-NOW

“There are, monks, some contemplatives & brahmans who are proponents of unbinding [nibbāna] in the here-&-now, who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being [sant satta][29] on five grounds. And with reference to what, coming from what, are these honorable contemplatives & brahmans proponents of unbinding in the here-&-now who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being on five grounds?

58. “There is the case where a certain contemplative or brahman is of this opinion, this view: ‘When the self goes about endowed & provided with the five strings of sensuality, it’s to this extent that the self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’[30] This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

59. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because sensuality is inconstant, stressful, subject to change. From its condition of being subject to change & becoming otherwise arises sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. But when this self—quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities—enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation,[31] it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

60. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because precisely what’s thought or evaluated there: That’s declared to be gross. But when this self—with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations—enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation, internal assurance, it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

61. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because precisely the state of mental exhilaration immersed in rapture there: That’s declared to be gross. But when this self, with the fading of rapture, remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and, sensing pleasure with the body, enters & remains in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding,’ it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

62. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because precisely the mental concern with “pleasure” there: That’s declared to be gross. But when this self, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress—enters & remains in the fourth jhāna: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain, it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

“These, monks, are the contemplatives & brahmans who are proponents of unbinding in the here-&-now, who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being on five grounds. And whatever contemplatives & brahmans who are proponents of unbinding in the here-&-now, who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being, they all do so on one or another of these five grounds. There is nothing outside of this.

“With regard to this, the Tathāgata discerns that ‘These standpoints, thus seized, thus grasped at, lead to such & such a destination, to such & such a state in the world beyond.’ That the Tathāgata discerns. And he discerns what is higher than that. And yet, discerning that, he does not grasp at it. And as he is not grasping at it, unbinding [nibbuti] is experienced right within. Knowing, as they have come to be, the origination, ending, allure, & drawbacks of feelings, along with the escape from feelings, the Tathāgata, monks—through lack of clinging/sustenance—is released.

“These, monks, are the dhammas—deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise—that the Tathāgata proclaims, having directly known & realized them for himself, and that those who, rightly speaking in praise of the Tathāgata in line with what is factual, would speak.

And don't think, stinginess not a little abounded for now, that you even have attained any Jhana, not to speak of paths or fruits. In this envy and stinginess, you might not even find certain ideas of believing your world around being, even all sensual pleasures, Nibbana. No way without leaving home and stinginess first, developed based on gratitude.

Anumodana.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 03:23:15 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Johann

November 20, 2018, 12:39:06 PM
May all drive slowly and be attentive since Bhante Sreng (Indanano) will not miss one moment to teach.
 

Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 06:45:22 AM
ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ _/\_
កូណាគួរនឹងបានទៅឱរ៉ាល់ស្អែក ជាមួយនឹងក្រុមព្រះអង្គស្រេង
 

Johann

November 20, 2018, 06:20:22 AM
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Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 05:57:49 AM
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Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 05:56:53 AM
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Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 04:32:00 AM
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Moritz

November 20, 2018, 01:04:26 AM
Good morning, Cheav Villa _/\_
 

Moritz

November 20, 2018, 12:42:27 AM
Good morning, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

November 19, 2018, 06:54:35 AM
Nyom Muk Sokha
 

Johann

November 18, 2018, 04:59:04 PM
Nyom Roman, Nyom Vithou.
 

Cheav Villa

November 18, 2018, 04:33:20 PM
Park Kuna Prah Ang _/\_
 

Khemakumara

November 18, 2018, 04:02:38 PM
 :-* :-*    :-*

Bhante
 

Johann

November 18, 2018, 03:29:08 PM
Nyom Villa
 

Johann

November 18, 2018, 03:08:35 PM
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Cheav Villa

November 17, 2018, 02:54:22 PM
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November 17, 2018, 02:29:15 PM
Sadhu for steady care, and no problem, nothing to worry.
 

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November 17, 2018, 02:07:11 PM
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Cheav Villa

November 17, 2018, 02:05:33 PM
ព្រះអង្គ​ ខ្ញុំកូណាមិមទាន់អាចផុសរូបភាពបានទេ​ មួយវិញទៀតខ្ញុំកូណាបានទូលព្រះអង្គSreng​ អោយចូលមកប្រេីSangham.net​
២ដង
 

Johann

November 17, 2018, 12:54:00 PM
Nyom Villa. Sokh chamreoun.
 

Cheav Villa

November 17, 2018, 12:48:37 PM
ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​  _/\_
 

Johann

November 16, 2018, 01:00:45 AM
May all delight in observing this Sila-days inspirations of cleaning the mind.
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 01:49:25 PM
Mag da Freude mit guten Unternehmungen sein.
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 01:46:28 PM
ich gehe jetzt wieder an die Arbeit. ich wünsche allen einen friedevollen Tag!
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 01:35:30 PM
ich würde mich sehr freuen dass mal mit eigenen augen zu sehen..habe auch geplant nächstes Jahr nach Kambodscha zu kommen.
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 01:14:27 PM
Thmo Duk , zur Zeit und schon gute Weile, Nyom Roman.
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 01:07:51 PM
Hello Cheav Villa

 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 12:57:27 PM
Johann wo leben sie eigentlich? Khemakumara erzählte mir dass sie eine Höle bewohnen im aural gebirge, wie ich mich erinneren kann
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 12:53:28 PM
Hallo Johann
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 12:52:15 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Cheav Villa

November 15, 2018, 09:03:03 AM
Kuna Prah Ang  :D _/\_
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 08:56:25 AM
Everything fine now with Nyoms settings? (Nyom Sokdina is Nyom Villas husband, right? My person is very ignorant in remembering names and relations.)
 

Kong Sokdina

November 15, 2018, 08:18:06 AM
Because I Kuna cant go sangham.net
after move Gmail to mail Green.
 

Kong Sokdina

November 15, 2018, 08:13:31 AM
Prah Ang
I kuna Villa using his Acct _/\_
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 08:04:33 AM
Nyom Kong Sokdina.
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 03:16:45 AM
A fruitful Sila-observance day for those obsering it today.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 03:52:00 PM
Nyom Roman and Bhantes family will be surely happy and good that Bhante does not need to get much involved directly.
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 03:40:07 PM
Kuna Prah Ang
 _/\_
The Kathina will be holding on Sat 17 and Sun 18. I kuna will meet both of Bhante Sreng and Bhante Khemearakuma to imform all about this, incl sharing much pictures.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 03:14:40 PM
Good if Nyom could explain Bhante Sreng how to use the online monastery. Sadhu! A topic on Bhante Khemakumaras going forth can be found here . Good also if informing and share date of Kathina at Wat Ayom, and much pictures to share
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:55:43 PM
Kuna Prah Ang,
As I kuna knowing that Prah Ang Khemareakuma
was staying in Ork Yum Pagoda.
This Saturday or Sunday I kuna would join the Kathin there, but now I kuna will send some about Bhante Khemareakuma via FB Prah Ang Sreng.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:37:46 PM
Nyom Roman, Nyom Villa asked if she can help in something in regard of Bhante. Best when you talk in a new topic.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:36:12 PM
Nyom Roman , Bhantes twin brother and his family asked how Bhante is. They miss him much and Bhante praisworthy focus on practice.
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:27:20 PM
ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_
តើខ្ញុំកូណានឹងអាចជួយអ្វីខ្លះអ្វីអំពីព្រះអង្គ​ Khemareakuma?
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:15:11 PM
ជំរាបសួរលោក​ Moritz
_/\_
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:12:59 PM
កូណាមិនបានដឹងទេ ព្រះអង្គ​
 

Moritz

November 14, 2018, 02:12:36 PM
ជំរាបសួរ Cheav Villa _/\_
 

Moritz

November 14, 2018, 02:12:29 PM
Auf Wiedersehen, Roman. Ich schreibe dir noch zurück per E-Mail und mache hier am besten noch ein Thema auf für später.

_/\_
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:03:05 PM
Does Nyom Villa know Bhante Khemakumaras twin brother?
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:01:43 PM
Eine Reihe der neuen Mitglieder hier, Nyom Villa, Puthy... sind öfter in Kontakt und in den Klöstern Ayum und in Phnom Penh. Mag sein, daß jemand von den Upasikas kürzlich Kontakt hatte. Gut auch wenn Nyom guten Kontakt zu anderen Laien vor Ort Pflegt, hallo sagt...
 

Roman

November 14, 2018, 02:01:26 PM
ich danke ihnen Johann und Motiz für die informationen und unterstützung.
 ich muss  jetzt weiter. ich  wünsche allen einen friedevolle tag
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 01:46:29 PM
Ein paar generelle und erklärende Worte zum Thema Unterstützen hier: If willing to help the child, the "poor" the new, give to it's master, father!

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