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Author Topic: [Q&A] Is Nibbana 'here and now' wrong or right view?  (Read 544 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] Is Nibbana 'here and now' wrong or right view?
« on: May 01, 2018, 03:08:15 PM »
Is Nibbana 'here and now' wrong or right view?

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

Since it lead often to discussion and might be in this, or that way missunderstood.
As state as one kind of group of wrong view in, for example DN 1 , it needs to be right understood that this 'here and now'-view covers the idea of here and now, in this or that sensual world, either in the sphere of the wordilt pleasures, of in refined states of mind, in the Jhanas, connected with sensuality and a notion of "but when this self" in fine sensual, mind-object spheres. One could understand this kind of 'here and now' also as here and now in the khandhas, or here and now in nama-rupa. To find Nibbana there, such is impossible and wrong view.

This view is often held by certain Nihilistic Jhana friends, and of course also the drive of the huge Meditation-business and really not a good, since not seldom those people have no fear in wrongdoing, and neglect consquences, at the same time, having for now, a while a good trained mind of householder-equanimity.

Just look on the virtue of people, their engagements in wordily things and politic, and if tracing such elements in an Element, is actually easy to recognize grave wrong view.

BUT:

It is clear, that 'here and now' is the most accurate placement of Nibbana and in it's case has nothing more to do with view, but also being aware and believe, that Nibbana can be attained right here and now, by dropping the clinging aggregates, is of course right view.

An idea that Nibbana can only be attained in a "next world", e.g. not in this very "existence" is not supported by those having made known and realiced by themselves, here and now, the cessation of suffering.

May it help those eager after liberation and not after profiling of a sense of self and own in views.

The view, that Nibbana is only attained by the break off of the body (an aggregate already detached by an Arahat) is merely a view developed by Commentators, but yes, might be in as far the better choice, since overestimation does not have that much place to request ones assumings. On the other hand, this view has all to often lead to such foolishness like suicide.

So it's really importand to get it right and focus more on details, traceable, such as desire for being or not-being, notions of self or sensual desires.

Of(f) cause, there are also Brahm's who suggest notions like "we are right here in pure land, western world", which gives food for a lot of views, yes.

SO:

May you read, and pay close attention:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa


THE SELF’S UNBINDING IN THE HERE-&-NOW

“There are, monks, some contemplatives & brahmans who are proponents of unbinding [nibbāna] in the here-&-now, who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being [sant satta][29] on five grounds. And with reference to what, coming from what, are these honorable contemplatives & brahmans proponents of unbinding in the here-&-now who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being on five grounds?

58. “There is the case where a certain contemplative or brahman is of this opinion, this view: ‘When the self goes about endowed & provided with the five strings of sensuality, it’s to this extent that the self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’[30] This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

59. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because sensuality is inconstant, stressful, subject to change. From its condition of being subject to change & becoming otherwise arises sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. But when this self—quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities—enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation,[31] it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

60. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because precisely what’s thought or evaluated there: That’s declared to be gross. But when this self—with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations—enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation, internal assurance, it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

61. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because precisely the state of mental exhilaration immersed in rapture there: That’s declared to be gross. But when this self, with the fading of rapture, remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and, sensing pleasure with the body, enters & remains in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding,’ it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

62. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that one attains the highest here-&-now unbinding. Why is that? Because precisely the mental concern with “pleasure” there: That’s declared to be gross. But when this self, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress—enters & remains in the fourth jhāna: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain, it’s to that extent that this self attains the highest here-&-now unbinding.’ This is how some proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being.

“These, monks, are the contemplatives & brahmans who are proponents of unbinding in the here-&-now, who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being on five grounds. And whatever contemplatives & brahmans who are proponents of unbinding in the here-&-now, who proclaim the highest here-&-now unbinding of an existing being, they all do so on one or another of these five grounds. There is nothing outside of this.

“With regard to this, the Tathāgata discerns that ‘These standpoints, thus seized, thus grasped at, lead to such & such a destination, to such & such a state in the world beyond.’ That the Tathāgata discerns. And he discerns what is higher than that. And yet, discerning that, he does not grasp at it. And as he is not grasping at it, unbinding [nibbuti] is experienced right within. Knowing, as they have come to be, the origination, ending, allure, & drawbacks of feelings, along with the escape from feelings, the Tathāgata, monks—through lack of clinging/sustenance—is released.

“These, monks, are the dhammas—deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise—that the Tathāgata proclaims, having directly known & realized them for himself, and that those who, rightly speaking in praise of the Tathāgata in line with what is factual, would speak.

And don't think, stinginess not a little abounded for now, that you even have attained any Jhana, not to speak of paths or fruits. In this envy and stinginess, you might not even find certain ideas of believing your world around being, even all sensual pleasures, Nibbana. No way without leaving home and stinginess first, developed based on gratitude.

Anumodana.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 03:23:15 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])
 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

gus

October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "

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