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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya? And certain bypasses...  (Read 655 times)

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Offline Johann

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Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Was asked, and after an "explaing" a further question raised by Upasaka Ruslan :

Does kind of sound like a way to bypass the rule of not accepting money.
"I don't accept money or ask lay people for anything, give the money to my lay person attendant and i will ask him for it if i need it"

Also there are many, especially in the west, who like to lift themselves above others by very hypocritical and inhonest ways, saying "we are the good one, we don't accept money", not only their mind is nothing but full of money, budgets, plans and desires for this and for that and their actions deeds and services have less objectives aside of getting the budget holes filled.

Althought the sadness that this very good essay of Ven. Bodhesako has at least also come under the control, has been taken, by householder-monks, is a very useful and straight explaining, worthy a read: The Use of Money by Monks

You should be clear about it, that a wordling is incapable to keep this precept seriously, by heart and out of understanding, and that you would hardly ever find such a person, come across or get aware of such this days.

You do not seriously believe that those Western Monks you associate with, are really that different to the "bad" ones? You wouldn't seriously believe that someone like Yuttadhammo did, does, will not handle and controll money and order like a king who never touches money? Or those ex-monks, speaking with big voice in the topic: do you seriously think that they have kept the simply precept... they all might have kept this or another hypocritical and inhonest approach, nothing more.

So from this point, it's not very smart to divide between others not really capable to live a homeless life and stick with the basic precepts.

It's easy to make one or another silly monk on face book who probably never really learned Vinaya to a bad man, but it's another to glorify such people like Sujato Bhikkhu and so on, who are not ashamed to ask for money and budget even at large in public, to maintain their livelihood, on the other side. What do you think will bring more harm for many? Ohh, you got certain personal benefit from it...

If really interested in the nature and the reasons of this precepts, if wishing to understand it by heart, it may be expressed. For it's a joy to talk with someone having certain virtue in his heart, rejoices in talks on virtue, and not on this or that stand, and it's of no use and burdensome to do such in regard of a person who just seeks for justifications of his/her innoble and dishonest ways.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 01:16:25 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

In case a king, a royal official, a brahman, or a householder sends a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu via a messenger, (saying,) "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the messenger, approaching the bhikkhu, should say, "This is a robe fund being delivered for the sake of the venerable one. May the venerable one accept this robe fund," then the bhikkhu is to tell the messenger: "We do not accept robe funds, my friend. We accept robes (robe-cloth) as are proper according to season."

Here it ends, but if (!) then...

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

If the messenger should say to the bhikkhu, "Does the venerable one have a steward?" then, bhikkhus, if the bhikkhu desires a robe, he may indicate a steward — either a monastery attendant or a lay follower — (saying,) "That, my friend, is the bhikkhus' steward[1]."

If the messenger, having instructed the steward and going to the bhikkhu, should say, "I have instructed the steward the venerable one indicated. May the venerable one go (to him) and he will clothe you with a robe in season," then the bhikkhu, desiring a robe and approaching the steward, may prompt and remind him two or three times, "I have need of a robe." Should (the steward) produce the robe after being prompted and reminded two or three times, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe, (the bhikkhu) should stand in silence four times, five times, six times at most for that purpose. Should (the steward) produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has stood in silence for the purpose four, five, six times at most, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe (at that point), should he then produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has endeavored further than that, it is to be forfeited and confessed.

If he should not produce (the robe), then the bhikkhu himself should go to the place from which the robe fund was brought, or a messenger should be sent (to say), "The robe fund that you, venerable sirs, sent for the sake of the bhikkhu has given no benefit to the bhikkhu at all. May the you be united with what is yours. May what is yours not be lost." This is the proper course here.
 1. Note: not "my steward", an importand detail.

So at no tome there is the idea of "my money", "my budge" or "my possibility" by a monk keeping such discipline and it's a matter of nature that one taking it serious would not even step down till the burden of offering ways toward a steward, but simply let lay people do of what they wish to, accept just of what is proper to exept and get not involved even a little.

Think just on the many problems which will naturally arise if a steward is not responsible toward helping a donor in his desires. Nothing but problems and normal stories of win and lose of live.

To reject even all signs of "having" a steward, not to speak of approving that someone takes care of certain things, is the wise and Noble track.

Even this "compassionate" way, given by the Buddha for the donor (don't think it's a help for monks who strive rightly) bares a lot of dangers and it is not to be regarded to be just a story that monks, having associated with so called stewards got hardly harmed an killed.

So if seeing, or getting aware that someone might give someone else the task to care for something for "your" purpose as a monk, as a person keeping the 10th precept, simply regard it as never been hear, seen, known... since all else will be just for unease and food for even very worse things.

Money and deals is the householders sphere, and the sphere of their Brahmans and thiefs of the Noble Ones.

Do not touch it and act wise in what ever side of a fruitful relation with those toward Unbinding you are, whether giver or receiver.

As a person not even having reached the stream, not even able to refrain of taking what is not given, is pointless if wishing to lift oneselve above a matter which actually requires to be already beyound the path and fruit of one in Dhamma.

This world is merely void of people who even have reached the stream and someone seriously having let go of the use of money and control, my person did not really met more than maybe two or three. In western spheres: dream on and let you be entertained and cheated.

In this regard it should be wisely considered, that even if those who openly hold money, even request money, althought very ugly and dirty are by far not that dirty and inhonest, unworthy, like those acting hidden, take of what they not even have asked for and what has not even given by a deal, for those, althought often the biggest voices, are not even worthy, not regarded, as monks or in affliction.

And it's not said to give any approval toward not abstaining from money, but for the purpose to possible get not blinded by those acting more then ugly by the means of using knowledge for their personal gain and who are not a lttle in the position of blame others within their poor ways of life.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 02:22:00 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

September 14, 2018, 07:11:41 AM
Und was ist die Grundlage für das Aukommen (paccaya) von Saddhā? Dukkha ist die Grundlage für das Aufkommen von Vertrauen (Händen und Füßen). Viel Dukkha! um Khema zu werden.
 

Johann

September 14, 2018, 07:02:53 AM
Eine Person ohne Vertrauen, Saddhaa, so sagen die Weisen, ist wie jemand ohne Hände und ohne Füße.

Also besser heute "unperfekt" beginnen, Anstelle perfekt wiedermal weiter nirgendwo Zuflucht zu erlangen. "Da ist nichts Gutes, es sei den man tut es."
 

Johann

September 11, 2018, 02:42:47 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

September 10, 2018, 03:39:32 PM
Ein Besucher. Wie geht es den Katzen?
 

Johann

September 08, 2018, 01:28:03 AM
Meister Hanspeter
 

Johann

September 05, 2018, 08:34:31 AM
At Buddhas times, so in times of Ajahn Mun, Upāli was the great supporter of the Kassapa, now the "Upalis" just make their livelihoods with it. Sad but true: or "nor for sure?"
 

Johann

September 05, 2018, 08:31:06 AM
It's like with Metallica- Fans and their producer, or to put it into Buddhas words: Uposatha of the cowboys.
 

Johann

September 05, 2018, 08:27:52 AM
Today many trade an nurish on the reputation of forest or kammaṭṭhāna - monks, making their livelihood with it by giving books, while wasting away their own goodness and possibilities actually destruct their upanissaya to it.
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 07:16:53 PM
mit gahaṭṭha den Tag abschließend und segenreichen (verdienstvollen puñña) Sonntag allen anregend.
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 09:43:50 AM
Was immer Mönch/Lehrer im Westen/moderenen Welt weilt, ist entweder Außenseiter oder (möglich ist) Arahant. Denken Sie nach.
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 09:41:14 AM
Suchen Sie die Theras in traditionellem Land. Die Mitglieder anderer Sekten/"Buddhisten/moderne, arroganz/dünkel gefangen, sind verloren!
 

Johann

September 01, 2018, 09:38:20 AM
Das ist so klärend... ohne, wie die Westlichen Lehrer, jemals in alte Kultur und Sprache eingetaucht zu sein, vermag man nicht mal Pali richtig übersetzen, scjreiben, dann erst Buddhavaca verstehen.
 

Johann

August 30, 2018, 03:39:04 PM
Be prepared to die! Pets -life in a rich country is nice, but you would not understand anything: paṭisandhi (Com., Mahavihara)
 

Johann

August 30, 2018, 01:38:39 PM
 

Johann

August 26, 2018, 10:06:36 PM
Verdienstreichen Vollmond-Uposatha Ausklang allen.
 

Johann

August 22, 2018, 06:04:12 AM
"No mercy" :) soweit Trübungen nicht hindern, Nyom Moritz und Mudita.
 

Moritz

August 22, 2018, 05:07:08 AM
Ich verabschiede mich. Viele Dinge zu ordnen. _/\_
 

Moritz

August 22, 2018, 04:50:41 AM
 _/\_
Gut zu hören, auch wenn sicher relativ.
Mögen Bhante genug Schonung finden. _/\_
 

Johann

August 22, 2018, 04:37:12 AM
Gegenüber dem "Sterben" gestern, "pumperlg'sund" auf Wienerisch. Sadhu der Nachfrage, Nyom Moritz.
 

Moritz

August 22, 2018, 04:10:10 AM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
Wie geht es Ihnen körperlich?
 

Johann

August 17, 2018, 02:21:49 AM
Mein's oder nicht meines, (Gier) Liebe oder Hass... Da sind wenige, die Blumen im Wald stehen lassen und Insekten nicht töten, weder bleiben noch gehen, und alles geben aus Wohlwollen und Mitgefühl, Weisheit gewonnen, Geiz besiegt und Güte ohne zu vereinnahmen. Wie konnten andere diese je sehen,
 

Johann

August 13, 2018, 05:13:25 AM
Händler mögen es nicht sich für passendes Mudita hinzugeben, und würden nur in Lob über deren Handelsware sprechen. Warum Leute Lobenswertes nicht loben: apacayana eine er 12 Personen: "...ein Geschäftsmann, sich seiner Schuld zum Arbeiten für seinen Vorteil verschrieben."
 

Johann

August 11, 2018, 12:06:41 AM
Erfreuenden und klärenden Neumond-Uposatha, den Ehrw. Herren, Anhängern und Interessierten.
 

Johann

August 10, 2018, 08:31:57 PM
Sokh chomreoun Nyom. Möge sich Sukha zur Vollständigkeit mehren.
 

Moritz

August 10, 2018, 06:20:44 PM
Ich muss wieder an die Arbeit. Einen angenehmen Abend, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

August 10, 2018, 05:25:27 PM
Nyom Moritz.

Nyom Mohan.
 

Moritz

August 10, 2018, 05:18:04 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante _/\_
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

August 05, 2018, 12:58:01 PM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich habe der Gruppe „ Anussavika“ beigetreten.

Dhamma Grüβe an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Johann

July 31, 2018, 04:38:15 PM
Den Weg kennend, im Vertrauen jenen folgen ihn gehend, gegangen, sich dann ausschließlich um die Enihsltung des Weges kümmer, gelangt man nach oben und hinaus. So, in dieser Weise, ist "der Weh ist das Ziel zu verstehen.
 

Johann

July 31, 2018, 04:33:35 PM
Mögen alles stets vorrangig auf die Qualitäten von Handlungen und Hingaben, die Ursachen für Früchte achten und nicht wie dumme gewöhnliche Leute, Zeile fixieren und danach gfreifen, die Ursachen damit fehlen, nie zu Früchten kommend, falscher Mitteln für Wirkung bedient.

Mudita
 

Johann

July 28, 2018, 07:38:00 AM
on how the blessed hobby, the liberating anime, the sublime gotchi decays for one and at a certain point for all: Dhamma-Gotchi and only fake last for some times lasting till also the mythos decays.
 

Johann

July 26, 2018, 01:50:45 PM
Morgen, Vollmond vor dem Vassa seiend, mag jener, der nicht zu sehr verstrickt in Fehlinvestitionen, die Gelegenheit für Lösung von Verstrickungen zu nützen vermögen.
 

Johann

July 26, 2018, 01:50:20 PM
Morgen, Vollmond vor dem Vassa seiend, mag jener, der nicht zu sehr verstrickt in Fehlinvestitionen, die Gelegenheit für Lösung von Verstrickungen zu nützen vermögen.
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 08:01:16 PM
Danke für die Infos
und eine friedliche Nacht
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 06:27:44 PM
Atma, zieht sich nun zurück, wieder spät geworden, Nyom. Ruhe Freude und Geduld beim ungestörten Erkunden und Gelegenheiten, Gegeben-heiten, nutzen.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:13:38 PM
Atma wird das Gespräch nun versuchen in Passendes Thema im Forum zu kopieren.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
In Sorge Unmut ob der Situation, gänzlich anders Vorgestellt,  zu mehren, hatte Johann nicht nach Marcel gefragt. Doch hätte er, würde er er erwähnen, wenn da dringliches und triftige Sorge um Marcel wäre. Gute Übung und Lehre, alles in allem, für viele, wenn danach ausgerichtet. Also einfach
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
Bhante Indannano, Johann angerufen habend, kurz, vor Tagen, unterrichtet geworden das Johann am Weg in die Hauptstadt sein, hatte sich sehr zurückhaltend und kurz gehalten. Wohl nicht mit den weltlichen Hindernissen all zu Erfreut und noch ungelößt.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:03:21 PM
Im Verwenden des Forums, überall, keine Sorge irgendwo was Falsch zu machen, ist es Stressfreier und Langlebiger, auch für andere, als Geschenk, Nyom Roman. Woimmer.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:00:55 PM
Nyom kam Nyom als "füherer Elternteil/Verwandter" betrachten. Hie etwas Technischer: ញោម "Nyom", ñoma - Ursprung bzw. Bedeutung
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:56:10 PM
Wenn Sie sich freimachen können, besuchen Sie ihn, und machen Sie Entdeckungsreise in unbekannter Welt, während ihm vielleich Weltliches abnehmen könnend.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:53:55 PM
mit Freude tun oder Geben mag, wo immer, ist vorallem für Roman glücksverheißend, neben Moraluscher Stange zum Glück für ihn haltend.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:51:42 PM
Mag er sicher Abstand von Unsicherm Gewinnen. Was immer Roman sich inspiriet fühlt, geschicktes, niemanden Verletzendes zu geben, zu tun, gar vielleicht mehr an jemand erhabener als "nur" eigener Bruder denkend,
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:49:04 PM
  Und was bedeutet Nyom...Ich habe versucht zu übersetzen.  Jedoch weiß ich nicht ob der Bezug richtig ist
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:48:39 PM
Johann hat ihn schon länger nicht persönlich getroffen, ob in Buchstaben, am Ohr oder mit mehr Sinnen. Gestern war er wohl online hier. Denke er ist sehr vertieft in der Praxis und hat eigentlich wenig Interesse sich um Äußerses zu kümmern.
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:46:46 PM
Beim lesen von den Beiträgen fällt es mir noch bißchen schwer alles zu verstehen...Ich frage mich gerade wer Atma ist..Und moritz bist du für die Internetseite zuständig?  
 

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:43:49 PM
Hallo,

Ich lese viel hier und wollte mich mal erkundigen wie es mit Marcel so steht..Hatte letzte Woche mit ihm gesprochen und es geht ihm gut! Hatte Johann geschrieben wie ich helfen kann..
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:41:15 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Sophorn

July 20, 2018, 05:09:54 AM
Sadhu. Möge es ein verdienstvolller Tag sein!
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 20, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Allen einen verdienstvollen Silatag, der letzte vor dem Antritt der Regenrückzugszeit.

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