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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya? And certain bypasses...  (Read 724 times)

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Offline Johann

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Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Was asked, and after an "explaing" a further question raised by Upasaka Ruslan :

Does kind of sound like a way to bypass the rule of not accepting money.
"I don't accept money or ask lay people for anything, give the money to my lay person attendant and i will ask him for it if i need it"

Also there are many, especially in the west, who like to lift themselves above others by very hypocritical and inhonest ways, saying "we are the good one, we don't accept money", not only their mind is nothing but full of money, budgets, plans and desires for this and for that and their actions deeds and services have less objectives aside of getting the budget holes filled.

Althought the sadness that this very good essay of Ven. Bodhesako has at least also come under the control, has been taken, by householder-monks, is a very useful and straight explaining, worthy a read: The Use of Money by Monks

You should be clear about it, that a wordling is incapable to keep this precept seriously, by heart and out of understanding, and that you would hardly ever find such a person, come across or get aware of such this days.

You do not seriously believe that those Western Monks you associate with, are really that different to the "bad" ones? You wouldn't seriously believe that someone like Yuttadhammo did, does, will not handle and controll money and order like a king who never touches money? Or those ex-monks, speaking with big voice in the topic: do you seriously think that they have kept the simply precept... they all might have kept this or another hypocritical and inhonest approach, nothing more.

So from this point, it's not very smart to divide between others not really capable to live a homeless life and stick with the basic precepts.

It's easy to make one or another silly monk on face book who probably never really learned Vinaya to a bad man, but it's another to glorify such people like Sujato Bhikkhu and so on, who are not ashamed to ask for money and budget even at large in public, to maintain their livelihood, on the other side. What do you think will bring more harm for many? Ohh, you got certain personal benefit from it...

If really interested in the nature and the reasons of this precepts, if wishing to understand it by heart, it may be expressed. For it's a joy to talk with someone having certain virtue in his heart, rejoices in talks on virtue, and not on this or that stand, and it's of no use and burdensome to do such in regard of a person who just seeks for justifications of his/her innoble and dishonest ways.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 01:16:25 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

In case a king, a royal official, a brahman, or a householder sends a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu via a messenger, (saying,) "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the messenger, approaching the bhikkhu, should say, "This is a robe fund being delivered for the sake of the venerable one. May the venerable one accept this robe fund," then the bhikkhu is to tell the messenger: "We do not accept robe funds, my friend. We accept robes (robe-cloth) as are proper according to season."

Here it ends, but if (!) then...

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

If the messenger should say to the bhikkhu, "Does the venerable one have a steward?" then, bhikkhus, if the bhikkhu desires a robe, he may indicate a steward — either a monastery attendant or a lay follower — (saying,) "That, my friend, is the bhikkhus' steward[1]."

If the messenger, having instructed the steward and going to the bhikkhu, should say, "I have instructed the steward the venerable one indicated. May the venerable one go (to him) and he will clothe you with a robe in season," then the bhikkhu, desiring a robe and approaching the steward, may prompt and remind him two or three times, "I have need of a robe." Should (the steward) produce the robe after being prompted and reminded two or three times, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe, (the bhikkhu) should stand in silence four times, five times, six times at most for that purpose. Should (the steward) produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has stood in silence for the purpose four, five, six times at most, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe (at that point), should he then produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has endeavored further than that, it is to be forfeited and confessed.

If he should not produce (the robe), then the bhikkhu himself should go to the place from which the robe fund was brought, or a messenger should be sent (to say), "The robe fund that you, venerable sirs, sent for the sake of the bhikkhu has given no benefit to the bhikkhu at all. May the you be united with what is yours. May what is yours not be lost." This is the proper course here.
 1. Note: not "my steward", an importand detail.

So at no tome there is the idea of "my money", "my budge" or "my possibility" by a monk keeping such discipline and it's a matter of nature that one taking it serious would not even step down till the burden of offering ways toward a steward, but simply let lay people do of what they wish to, accept just of what is proper to exept and get not involved even a little.

Think just on the many problems which will naturally arise if a steward is not responsible toward helping a donor in his desires. Nothing but problems and normal stories of win and lose of live.

To reject even all signs of "having" a steward, not to speak of approving that someone takes care of certain things, is the wise and Noble track.

Even this "compassionate" way, given by the Buddha for the donor (don't think it's a help for monks who strive rightly) bares a lot of dangers and it is not to be regarded to be just a story that monks, having associated with so called stewards got hardly harmed an killed.

So if seeing, or getting aware that someone might give someone else the task to care for something for "your" purpose as a monk, as a person keeping the 10th precept, simply regard it as never been hear, seen, known... since all else will be just for unease and food for even very worse things.

Money and deals is the householders sphere, and the sphere of their Brahmans and thiefs of the Noble Ones.

Do not touch it and act wise in what ever side of a fruitful relation with those toward Unbinding you are, whether giver or receiver.

As a person not even having reached the stream, not even able to refrain of taking what is not given, is pointless if wishing to lift oneselve above a matter which actually requires to be already beyound the path and fruit of one in Dhamma.

This world is merely void of people who even have reached the stream and someone seriously having let go of the use of money and control, my person did not really met more than maybe two or three. In western spheres: dream on and let you be entertained and cheated.

In this regard it should be wisely considered, that even if those who openly hold money, even request money, althought very ugly and dirty are by far not that dirty and inhonest, unworthy, like those acting hidden, take of what they not even have asked for and what has not even given by a deal, for those, althought often the biggest voices, are not even worthy, not regarded, as monks or in affliction.

And it's not said to give any approval toward not abstaining from money, but for the purpose to possible get not blinded by those acting more then ugly by the means of using knowledge for their personal gain and who are not a lttle in the position of blame others within their poor ways of life.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 02:22:00 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Johann

November 20, 2018, 12:39:06 PM
May all drive slowly and be attentive since Bhante Sreng (Indanano) will not miss one moment to teach.
 

Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 06:45:22 AM
ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ _/\_
កូណាគួរនឹងបានទៅឱរ៉ាល់ស្អែក ជាមួយនឹងក្រុមព្រះអង្គស្រេង
 

Johann

November 20, 2018, 06:20:22 AM
ញោម មូ៉ក, ញោម វិល្លា៉
 

Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 05:57:49 AM
ជំរាប សួរ ពូ (ម៉ុក)
 _ / \ _
 

Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 05:56:53 AM
ជំរាប​សួរ​ ពូ(ម៉ូក)​
 _/\_
 

Cheav Villa

November 20, 2018, 04:32:00 AM
_/\_
 

Moritz

November 20, 2018, 01:04:26 AM
Good morning, Cheav Villa _/\_
 

Moritz

November 20, 2018, 12:42:27 AM
Good morning, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

November 19, 2018, 06:54:35 AM
Nyom Muk Sokha
 

Johann

November 18, 2018, 04:59:04 PM
Nyom Roman, Nyom Vithou.
 

Cheav Villa

November 18, 2018, 04:33:20 PM
Park Kuna Prah Ang _/\_
 

Khemakumara

November 18, 2018, 04:02:38 PM
 :-* :-*    :-*

Bhante
 

Johann

November 18, 2018, 03:29:08 PM
Nyom Villa
 

Johann

November 18, 2018, 03:08:35 PM
Bhante
 

Cheav Villa

November 17, 2018, 02:54:22 PM
កូ​ណា​ _/\_
 

Johann

November 17, 2018, 02:29:15 PM
Sadhu for steady care, and no problem, nothing to worry.
 

Cheav Villa

November 17, 2018, 02:07:11 PM
តែលោកនៅតែលេីកហេតុផល
មកបដិសេធដដែល
 

Cheav Villa

November 17, 2018, 02:05:33 PM
ព្រះអង្គ​ ខ្ញុំកូណាមិមទាន់អាចផុសរូបភាពបានទេ​ មួយវិញទៀតខ្ញុំកូណាបានទូលព្រះអង្គSreng​ អោយចូលមកប្រេីSangham.net​
២ដង
 

Johann

November 17, 2018, 12:54:00 PM
Nyom Villa. Sokh chamreoun.
 

Cheav Villa

November 17, 2018, 12:48:37 PM
ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​  _/\_
 

Johann

November 16, 2018, 01:00:45 AM
May all delight in observing this Sila-days inspirations of cleaning the mind.
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 01:49:25 PM
Mag da Freude mit guten Unternehmungen sein.
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 01:46:28 PM
ich gehe jetzt wieder an die Arbeit. ich wünsche allen einen friedevollen Tag!
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 01:35:30 PM
ich würde mich sehr freuen dass mal mit eigenen augen zu sehen..habe auch geplant nächstes Jahr nach Kambodscha zu kommen.
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 01:14:27 PM
Thmo Duk , zur Zeit und schon gute Weile, Nyom Roman.
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 01:07:51 PM
Hello Cheav Villa

 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 12:57:27 PM
Johann wo leben sie eigentlich? Khemakumara erzählte mir dass sie eine Höle bewohnen im aural gebirge, wie ich mich erinneren kann
 

Roman

November 15, 2018, 12:53:28 PM
Hallo Johann
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 12:52:15 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Cheav Villa

November 15, 2018, 09:03:03 AM
Kuna Prah Ang  :D _/\_
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 08:56:25 AM
Everything fine now with Nyoms settings? (Nyom Sokdina is Nyom Villas husband, right? My person is very ignorant in remembering names and relations.)
 

Kong Sokdina

November 15, 2018, 08:18:06 AM
Because I Kuna cant go sangham.net
after move Gmail to mail Green.
 

Kong Sokdina

November 15, 2018, 08:13:31 AM
Prah Ang
I kuna Villa using his Acct _/\_
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 08:04:33 AM
Nyom Kong Sokdina.
 

Johann

November 15, 2018, 03:16:45 AM
A fruitful Sila-observance day for those obsering it today.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 03:52:00 PM
Nyom Roman and Bhantes family will be surely happy and good that Bhante does not need to get much involved directly.
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 03:40:07 PM
Kuna Prah Ang
 _/\_
The Kathina will be holding on Sat 17 and Sun 18. I kuna will meet both of Bhante Sreng and Bhante Khemearakuma to imform all about this, incl sharing much pictures.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 03:14:40 PM
Good if Nyom could explain Bhante Sreng how to use the online monastery. Sadhu! A topic on Bhante Khemakumaras going forth can be found here . Good also if informing and share date of Kathina at Wat Ayom, and much pictures to share
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:55:43 PM
Kuna Prah Ang,
As I kuna knowing that Prah Ang Khemareakuma
was staying in Ork Yum Pagoda.
This Saturday or Sunday I kuna would join the Kathin there, but now I kuna will send some about Bhante Khemareakuma via FB Prah Ang Sreng.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:37:46 PM
Nyom Roman, Nyom Villa asked if she can help in something in regard of Bhante. Best when you talk in a new topic.
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:36:12 PM
Nyom Roman , Bhantes twin brother and his family asked how Bhante is. They miss him much and Bhante praisworthy focus on practice.
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:27:20 PM
ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_
តើខ្ញុំកូណានឹងអាចជួយអ្វីខ្លះអ្វីអំពីព្រះអង្គ​ Khemareakuma?
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:15:11 PM
ជំរាបសួរលោក​ Moritz
_/\_
 

Cheav Villa

November 14, 2018, 02:12:59 PM
កូណាមិនបានដឹងទេ ព្រះអង្គ​
 

Moritz

November 14, 2018, 02:12:36 PM
ជំរាបសួរ Cheav Villa _/\_
 

Moritz

November 14, 2018, 02:12:29 PM
Auf Wiedersehen, Roman. Ich schreibe dir noch zurück per E-Mail und mache hier am besten noch ein Thema auf für später.

_/\_
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:03:05 PM
Does Nyom Villa know Bhante Khemakumaras twin brother?
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 02:01:43 PM
Eine Reihe der neuen Mitglieder hier, Nyom Villa, Puthy... sind öfter in Kontakt und in den Klöstern Ayum und in Phnom Penh. Mag sein, daß jemand von den Upasikas kürzlich Kontakt hatte. Gut auch wenn Nyom guten Kontakt zu anderen Laien vor Ort Pflegt, hallo sagt...
 

Roman

November 14, 2018, 02:01:26 PM
ich danke ihnen Johann und Motiz für die informationen und unterstützung.
 ich muss  jetzt weiter. ich  wünsche allen einen friedevolle tag
 

Johann

November 14, 2018, 01:46:29 PM
Ein paar generelle und erklärende Worte zum Thema Unterstützen hier: If willing to help the child, the "poor" the new, give to it's master, father!

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