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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] Wholesale dismissal of Non-Ariya traditions result in Ariyupavadantarya?  (Read 439 times)

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Offline Johann

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Quote from: Upasaka Ruslan
Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya?

A question for those well-familiar with non-Theravada traditions and texts, as titled:
Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions such as Zen or Mahayana result in Ariyupavadantaraya*?

*offense of reviling a Noble person

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasakas, Upasikas, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,



Nyom Ruslan ,

Antarya means danger, blockade, obstacle.

my person has renamed the original question, so that it fits also for holder of a view "I am a Theravadin".

First of all: it is said by the Liberal, known by the wise, that a person of no integrity (eg. worldling, non-Araiya) is incapable to know of who is a person of integrity.

Secound, what ever Tradition (outwardly) serious practice the Eightfold path for right liberation from suffering, for own and all other welfare, can be called an Ariya-Tradition, will be not different by means and appearing to the Buddhas direct traceable heritage.

Third, by nature of having gained right view, it's impossible for a Noble One to define himself by means of groups, nations, lables aside of such as Noble One by action. Who ever discriminates right and wrong by outwardly manners aside of deeds, reviles not in manner of conduct but by nation, geography, age, race, outwardly family... acts on behave of such, sacrifices in that ways downwardly, such a person has not gained right view. So who ever, not just using it as a synonym for conduct according to the path and aim, defines himself as Theravadin, Zen... German, Russian, Amerikan, acts on behave of this selfdefinition, such person has not gained the stream.

Who ever, having gained the stream, criticizes traditions of worldlings, conduct outside the Eightfold path, aspirations aside of putting an end of suffering for oneself at first place, and so for the benefit of all others, does such rightly.

Who ever criticizes, after having investigated proper, of what is worthy to criticize, right, based on right resolve, such causes heavenly fruits. For doing the opposite, blame the right, praise the wrong, such is the cause of downfall, hell.

And, to think about, there is the case where a person, having gained path in previous life, reapears on places, in societies void of the Gems, the Sangha the Dhamma. He might associate with groups actually not in the Ariya Traditions to the extend of Dana, Sila, Samadhi, but not in regard of panna.

If such a person, independent of a teacher (because a stream enter, Ariya by "by Birth", because of his past deeds) might come in contact with the Liberated Ones tradition, good Dhamma, peoples of integrity, he/she would suddenly leave his outward bounds in not noble relations.

As for those many householder, worldly conducts and traditions, traders of Juwels, parents and unrightouse grasped heritage of the Buddha, who desire, whether in robes of not, for staying in Samsara, engage in various ways unskilled, do not know of what is first and what comes after, and think in manners of equality and rights, this worthless beings are of cause found in all Mohayanas, all pabbajito reviler traditions, householder traditions, with householders as their leaders, with no respect of Samanas, this people, headed by devadatta, by Mara, or by Baka, are also found in certain Mohanikaya Traditions, the groups of the foolish mass.

Those who do not know of what Elders means, have not abound discrimination of worldling, those lost Brahmans, althought dealing with the heritage of the Noble Ones, are lost equal Mohayanas.

And what does Mahayana means in the tradition of the Noble Ones? Having gained "Buddhanature" a person of integrity is bound to practice the Ariya Path for the right ending of Stress, and gains within max 7 further existences highest liberation.

Such person really does neither seek or praise those calling them selfes Vajrayanas, those cheating householders with no virtue, no conduct and leading the mass to downfall.

It's by nature, that a Boddhisatta never comes in touch with the eightfold path, the aim, the three Gems on the surface of jnowing and seeing.

That is why one should not associate with householders (eg. those holding to the six sense at least) and those of not respect for outwardly, not to speak inwardly Went-forth.

Coming in touch, with the Noble Ones, being a child of the other family, one has no doubt and feels suddenly reminded.

And since some householder and pets devoted told that just Jhana is a critera of the Noble ones, such is not right. Even Devadatta gained certsin Jhanas, even certain Zen, Forest... what ever leades and masters, gained and teach such, yet still often very missleading subjects, heading people into spheres where Dhamma can be not gained for a long, long time. By ending of dependend bliss, they fall into the hell.

So this is why the elders do not teach Jhana to those not aware of right view, to householders, to those rejecting right view even on a pre-path level: reviler of what is right, praiser of what is wrong, but would again and again teach right view to householder those not having gone forth, eighter lay or in robes. For it's his gift for purification of ones mind.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"And how is one made pure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made pure in three ways by mental action.

If certain doubt arises, may one feel encouraged to ask further and in detail.

18. Wrong practice of buddha-dhamma   



The Buddha, here representing the true teaching, is being attacked by three monks and one laymen. The fact that there is only one layman attacking the teachings indicates that many monks, once having been ordained in the order, continue to follow false path and are attached to ceremony. They are indifferent to the true teachings and prefer the Wheel of Wandering-on to Nibbāna.

(Monks, as they are more conspicuous than layman and because they are supposed to be devoting their lives to the Three Gems, and because it is known that they have many precepts to keep pure, can attack the Dhamma by misconduct in a more violent way than is possible for laypeople)

(Note that this Dhamma is said to be contributedby one of the most worthless "monks", a slave-leader, Buddhadassa! to understand the Dangers, Antarya. Yet this it-self if Dhamma and the meanig understood even if contributed to known revilers and Dhamma-Danger praiser)

May Vandami become soon a daily practice for many, may no one falls in associatiin with fools now not secure.

It's by an Element that being gather together, "are" bond to each other.

Anumodana! May all being be able to rejoice with good deeds done.

May person will now leave the Dhamma-womb and go for alms.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:19:22 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Four Great References

7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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And a short story in this relation, Nyom (former relative/father) Ruslan .

At least this first so impressed person, out of total overestmation and wrong views thinking having gained right, actually disliked my person gravely, after being actually in search for gain and becoming.

A person who gives, even wealthy, just bottles of water, saying "there is no transgression in drinking just that" while sacrificing toward flags preaching ditthis of "A(bhi)dhamma".

Althought knowing so much, not beyond macchariya and identification, desire for it.

Upasaka Dhammavaro , also an ex-monk and hopfull no more drunken in householder approaches now, once said wisely: "Be careful! Certain monks know your mind, thought, intentions."

There is a world between remembering sayings and known by seeing. This world has to be abounded to see as it is.

Once in the bond of the Sangha, one is always "supernatural" in connection. As awarness had learned to investigate awarnness. Around all the time, protected, with no secrets possible to hide.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 06:46:53 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Sophorn

Today at 05:09:54 AM
Sadhu. Möge es ein verdienstvolller Tag sein!
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

Today at 03:06:04 AM
Allen einen verdienstvollen Silatag, der letzte vor dem Antritt der Regenrückzugszeit.
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante
 :-*  :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
 :)  ;) Moritz, gut einfühlbar. In Österreich lebte der Körper nach der asiatischen Uhr, hier in N nach der österreichischen Uhr.
Nicht zeitgerecht der Natur entsprechend zu leben, überfordert den Körper.  
Beste Grüße aus Kathmandu!  :-*
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 11:06:18 AM
Sadhu, und vergesse Nyom sich nicht.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
Es wird spät in Hawaii. Einen friedlichen Tag allen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:40:41 AM
Ja, gestern Vormittag bis Nachmittag. Ich lebe wohl gerade ungefähr im Einklang mit der Zeitzone von Hawaii.
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 07:36:45 AM
Nyom Moritz. Hat er auch ausreichend Schlaf genommen?
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:30:08 AM
Good day, Bhante _/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 03:20:13 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 03:07:40 AM
Ach ja, hab nun geändert. Vielleicht klappt's nun beim nächsten probieren @Roman
_/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 02:21:56 AM
Vielleicht gut wenn Meister Moritz Nyom Roman die 5 Mühsam-Beitagszahl hineinzaubert, da dann spamschutz wegfällt und er zu den unöffentlichen Foren Zugang hat.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:13:06 PM
Hier eine kurze Bild-Erklärung zum Beantworten von Themen und Beiträgen.
Wenn noch Probleme, gern weiter hier nachfragen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Gut zu hören, dass der Bruder sich mitfreut. Sadhu! :)
Möge alles problemlos im Eintritt in das neue Leben für ihn laufen. _/\_

Roman

July 12, 2018, 09:01:41 PM
Danke moritz

Ich werde es ausprobieren!!

Aufjedenfall war es eine sehr erfreuliche Nachricht! ! Ich bin sehr stolz auf marcel!! Mein herz geht auf!! Wunderschön!
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:58:37 PM
(Also auch auf der neuen Seite, wo dann das Text-Eingabefeld ist: Das Text-Eingabefeld ist nicht gleich im Fokus, sondern man muss erst ein gutes Stück nach unten scrollen, um es zu finden.)
Nicht sicher gerade, wie es auf Smartphone aussieht, ob da viel anders ist.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Wenn man ganz unten ans Ende der letzten Nachricht scrollt, sollte da ein Button "Reply" oder "Antworten" sein. (Je nach eingestellter Sprache vielleicht.) Da drauf klicken. Dann sollte auf der nächsten Seite eine Texteingabe-Ansicht erscheinen. Zu der muss man aber erst ein Stück runter scrollen.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Oh, die Nachricht wurde abgeschnitten. Hier in der Shoutbox sind nur ein paar hundert Zeichen möglich.
Ja, das Forum ist etwas unübersichtlich am Anfang. Moment, ich versuche mal, zu erklären. :)

Roman

July 12, 2018, 08:41:24 PM
Hallo

Ich lese sehr viel hier!! Es ist sehr interessant!! Die Menge an Infos! ! Sehr toll!!..Ich habe versucht auf den Beitrag zu reagieren der die Entwicklung von nyom marcel beschreibt..glaube von Johann verfasst. Jedoch weiß ich noch nicht genau wie dieses funktioniert.
Ich habe die Nachric
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:34:57 PM
Hallo Roman, Binocular/Visitor _/\_
 

Johann

July 12, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 10:08:30 PM
Ohh... es ist woeder mal 3 geworden. Atma erlaubt sich, sich zurückzuziehen und sich etwas um die Malaria zu kümmern.
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
Sadhu zu Ersten Ausruf/ Aufruf. Sadhu zum zweiten, zu Vorbildhaftigkeit, und mag er sich stets entlassen fühlen
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 07:00:07 PM
Chom reap leah, Bhante _/\_
Nun wirklich weg hier für heute, Arbeit ruft.
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 05:43:01 PM
Allen gute Besinnung auf was besinnenswert ([1] | [2] ) ist wünschend _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 08, 2018, 09:33:25 AM
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 09:28:47 AM
Nyom Sophorn
 

Danilo

July 08, 2018, 12:20:06 AM
Bhante and Moritz _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 12:16:49 AM
Moritz, Danilo
 

Moritz

July 08, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
Good evening, morning or whatever the time here and there. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 04:20:58 PM
Meister Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:57:42 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 02:36:37 PM
  :-* Hallo Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
Hallo, Marcel, Sophorn. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 05:18:33 AM
Nyom Sophorn, Nachricht von Bhante Indannano: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1554.msg15198.html#msg15198
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 03:51:28 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:22:38 AM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:08:22 AM
Geruhsame Nacht, Nyom
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:48:32 AM
Gute Nacht. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:47:01 AM
Hallo Mirco! :)
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:46:48 AM
Sadhu. Möge Bhante lange gesund bleiben. _/\_
 

Johann

July 01, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
Sadhu

Angenehmen, klärenden Tag. Auch allen anderen.

Atmas Gesundheit, trotz der durch stetes Regnen zahlreicher Mitesser, ist soweit ok und wer weis wie morgen. Bisher schon länger malariaanfallverschont.

 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
(Bin erst mal kurz weg vom Computer.
Chom reap leah. _/\_)
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:41:41 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante. _/\_

Wie steht es um Ihre Gesundheit und Malaria?

_/\_
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 03:48:17 AM
Hallo Sophorn!
Gruß auch zurück nach Österreich :) _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 01, 2018, 03:40:58 AM
Freut mich, dass es gut geht.

Beste Grüsse nach Asien und Resteuropa!  :-*
 

Marcel

June 30, 2018, 12:23:03 AM
Werte sophorn,
Mir geht es gut!  :-*
 

Sophorn

June 29, 2018, 08:23:49 PM
Werter Marcel,
Wie geht's?
 :-*
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:10:49 AM
  :'(- irrtümlich gesendet!!

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