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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Maintaining relations after going forth  (Read 235 times)

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Online Johann

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Maintaining relations after going forth
« on: September 25, 2018, 06:06:22 PM »

Late Venerable Nyanavimala had taught that a monk who keep contacts with his
1. Old Family
2. Old Friends
3. Old Country
is still a Samanera. (though some suspects whether it is an extreme.)
http://ven-nyanavimala.buddhasasana.net

Nyom gus , let my person correct it a little. He did not read the article of Venerable, from this commercial page.

That's right and wrong, biased or to less explained.

One who still feels identification, desires for contact of what he objectes as personal, is an householder, not even a Samanera. Or spoken in ideal form a worldling.

Only a Sotapanna has overcome a good amount of all this identifications and desire after relation with "own" normally people have.

Yet on the other hand, only an Arahat has abound all kinds of worries about his kind.

But it's also the case that there are wanderers who dwell out of aversion (perverse clinging) torward family, friends, kind, nation... and this kind of tudhong-monk has been mentioned by the Buddha. One of the reasons why ones desire for this practice is corrupt.

Not sure if it will match with the Ven. teachings.

And no, it's not extrem but naturally once in Dhamma. And yes normal people can not understand at all, especially in SEAsia where ones kind is the whole insurance one has.

In the west people would have the problem to let go of citizenship, since that's there external refuge.

One having reached the stream does not have another refuge then the gems, has abound the nurishing of other relations.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Maintaining relations after going forth
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2018, 06:25:57 PM »
A while ago Atma talked a little about the Samanera-issue , Nyom gus inspired with a topic elsewhere, which needs to be keeped in mind here possible, not knowing in with context (ideal/conventional) late Ven. uses the word.
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Re: Maintaining relations after going forth
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2018, 06:47:14 PM »
Bhante, here are some quotes from his book. You'll be able to understand the context.
Ven. Hiriko says:
Quote from: ??
As I introduced myself he expressed his surprise that even though I had been in robes for some years I wasn’t ordained as a bhikkhu (monk), but as a sāmaṇera (novice monk) and he encouraged me to take bhikkhu or higher ordination soon. He gave some brief instructions about the life of a monk: that one should cut one’s connection with one’s family, lay-friends and one’s old country. Then one should stay near one’s preceptor or teacher without going here and there for the first five years at least, and even more, if one doesn’t feel ready to live independently. Then one should study and memorise the important passages from the Pāli suttas (discourses) and vinaya (monastic discipline). He didn’t fully endorse the Abhidhamma books. Spending Time with Venerable Ñāṇavimala
But ven. Guttasila thinks it as a sternness.
Quote from: ??
After going for piṇḍapāta, I went to see Ven. Ñāṇavimala. I explained to him how the last three years I was away from Sri Lanka and how I looked after my parents, etc., but I also explained I was able to keep my monk’s precepts during that time. Bhante Ñāṇavimala gave a little bit of a Dhamma talk to me. I brought this question up about the old lady to Ven. Ñāṇavimala. He changed and became kind of stern and he spoke to me in a very hard way saying ‘You went back to New Zealand just to indulge your senses, just to enjoy yourself. sāmaṇeras like you shouldn’t go piṇḍapāta. You should just keep your mind on the meditation object and take your meals in the dining hall (dānasāla)’. I was not a sāmaṇera, but a bhikkhu and for me, this was just so severe and so insensitive. He said, ‘That’s enough now, you can go’. So I paid respects and left. This is a monk I thought very highly of, a role model, someone to inspire one in one’s monk life. I still saw him as a very wonderful monk, very sincere in his practice, but what it showed me was that he could be very insensitive.

Ven. Ñāṇavimala could be very conservative, very narrow and set in various ways. He couldn’t understand how anyone could go back to the West. For him, anyone who went back to the West only went to enjoy himself. He couldn’t appreciate how someone could have gone back to spend time with aged parents out of compassion and also to serve the Buddhist community. On another occasion I was present in Vajirarama when a Dutch monk went to see Ven. Ñāṇavimala. When Ven. Ñāṇavimala learned this monk had been back to the West, he severely admonished him about indulging in sensuality. Ven. Ñāṇavimala, we could see, had certain set views. This is what I mean about the rigidity and conservative attitudes in Ven. Ñāṇavimala’s mind. I think another thing here is Ven. Ñāṇavimala’s lack of ability to actually communicate with the other person. Ven. Ñāṇavimala was remote, it was almost like a person from a previous generation talking to one of a younger generation and the gap was just so wide.recollections
Bhikkhu Nananada says his strictness was a good quality.
Quote from: ??
By fervour of austerity, severity of discipline and rigour of fortitude, the late Venerable Ñāṇavimala Mahāthera appeared hard like a stone. But, with his overflowing mettā (universal love) and deep compassion, he was at the same time, soft like a flower. It was not easy for some who knew him to understand this wonderful blend of qualities. They were not all able to appreciate the straightforward and brief advice he gave in his deep and reverberating voice. slowly-carefully-mindfully

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Re: Maintaining relations after going forth
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2018, 01:21:43 AM »
Sadhu!

Of all my person had read about Ven. Ñāṇavimala he seems to have lived the Holly Live and knows of what he talks.

My person wouldn't/doesn't give other advices and yes, it is "sad" that so many, having sacrified so much, go back and by time usually fall back into merely householders life become and are slaves of there monastic householder life and live like cattle and owner, owner and cattle in associations with housholders and improper dependency.

Althought sometimes not blood-relatives it's often the case that this relations outwardly the bondless relation of the ideal Sangha become their replacement family with no different to the ordinary householder pleasure and pain with it.

It's not easy and there are a lot of dangers but if living strict in accordiance with the Tudhong-rules, this is a certain protection.. One learns to cut through compassion and compassion, get's more and more seperated form ones defilements.

These practice and life requires the gain of the secound path minumum. It's not possible for ordinary people to live in such ways.

To meet such a person is very very rare and it's not all about the physical touch. But once has reached the stream by oneself one might be able to meet.

Which brings my person to another Question Nyom gus had: "Are there still forest-traditions?" But that would be of topic here althought related.

Having walk thousands of kilometer, my person met only a handful trying and starting this mode of living and "funny" all of those he did not met on the road but they came one by one since the time my person settled here a little. Mostly younger eager Monks, very impressed, motivated and inspired by the "crazy foreigner".

If Nyom Gus has ways and likes to share accounts of Ven. Ñāṇavimala, which are not occupied by monks making their livelihood by serving with stories from the sages, such would be surely of benefit for many (btw, since Nyom asked, that's the reason why there is nothing to find from Ajahn Chan's nephew . Many make a living on the reputation of their teacher and "parents" and just imitating their kind in outwardly appearances).

Nyom may try to get in touch with Ven. Nyanadassana who might be in reach, living without family, friends, relatives and he might be also interested to get in touch with Ven. Hasapanno , who might once lived the highest live, possible inspire Sir to get not caught in a replacement-family.

He also might enjoy to read the short story about Sister Uppalavanna . But: if he likes to body-witness the meeting with those have left home, there is no other way as to leave it by oneself fist (even if just temporary). There is no other ways to do that, no shortcut, no support of what ever upanissaya one would have in the sphere of ordinary goodness ( guṇa).

A sign of one who has changed his kindship is that there is no more obligation toward his former relatives and all of what he gives in that direction is purely out of compassion without any bond or obligation. What Sekhas (those already in training) still have is a obligation toward the family of the Noble Ones, their Theras, teacher and also toward the offspings of this relation. As for an Asekha (one beyond the training) also this has become to a pure matter of compassion, beyond duty, beyond obligation and there is no other person (or kind similar to him), behind the foremost father, the Buddha, the Sanghas father Ven. Maha Kassapa, treasure and blessing of the Sangha.

My person leaves here for his alms round. Don't hesitage to raise what ever question and my Nyom be sure that there are less finding their ways into this hermitage here and even more less to enjoy the dwelling far away from commonways.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 02:45:46 AM by Johann »
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Re: Maintaining relations after going forth
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2018, 05:10:33 AM »
Bhante,
I found more interesting passages.
Interestingly, he refused to speak German even when people spoke German to him. He said it reminded him of his old country. At that time he had lived in Sri Lanka for over 40 years. He even became a Sri Lankan citizen, or at least, on his last visit to the Immigration Office in Colombo to renew his visa, the officer took away his German passport and promised to issue a Sri Lankan passport (even though it may not have happened since no one has seen that passport). The officer told him: ‘Hāmuduruvo (monk), you are too old, no need to come here again to renew your visa. It’s taken care of, you are a citizen of Sri Lanka, I’ll send you the passport.’ So Ven. Ñāṇavimala stopped going to the Immigration Office after that. I heard this story from some older monks.

He told me once about a woman, his adopted mother, who took care of him when he was a child in Germany. She didn’t have children of her own and was quite attached to him. During his first ten or so years in Sri Lanka, he would receive letters from her every once in a while. But he wouldn’t even read them at first. He would put them in a drawer, wait for some time, and only then open them. ‘There would usually be some issue or other that she would ask me about,’ he told me, as he was instructing me how to stay unattached to my own family, ‘but by the time I would actually open the letter, it would be unnecessary to write back. By that time the issue in question would have been already solved, so I never wrote a single letter to her or to anyone since I became a bhikkhu,’ he explained. I was never very good at following that instruction, I must admit.

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Re: Maintaining relations after going forth
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2018, 08:16:03 AM »
Nyom gus ,

Also Bhante Hiriko and others of the pathpress-industry can be contacted personally.

That's their last best-seller: "The Silent Sages of Old" another fake-sage?

If late Bhante Ñāṇavimala was definitely walking the track of the Noble Ones, there is no real possible way to retell stories so that others would understand and not just get attached to them. They serve of course with plenty of food for bias. My person, Atma, has also seen that retellers quickly retell stories but misunderstand much. The Biography of Ajahn Mun by Ajahn Bowa is such a famous sample.

Just yesterday my person thought, knowing Bhante Khemakumara will soon arrive, that it will be hard to maintain such as passports, visas for him... while living near my person.

It's nearly impossible to live the holly live and maintain such as pass-ports, citizenship or what ever marks of householder. Something very serious. A sign that the Savakas have nearly disappeared in this world.

To even know an address is already dangerous. Nobody normally knows when Atma leaves a place and there is actually no way to find him.

When one leaves house and only turn back a little before he has reached thecutting of, the other direction, one may be sure to be caught again.

While normaly the family (or state in modern communist times) would take care, for one having seriously left home under the tripple Gems, it's the Noble Sangha, incl. the Devas and there follower who will take care at proper times.

And there is actually no real way for old worldly familily, friends to be really able to support as long as they have not changed their direction as well.

Just as an story of countless. Once wandering in the North wild of Cambodia, near the Thaiborder, my person felt sick. After some weeks of high fiber he came in a very remoted forest village. The people incl. the actually very bad abbot there cared with all means they had for the very weak foreign recluse. It was "pure luck" that the abbot later found a number a layperson seemingly wrote down in my persons booklet for another lay-person. (As found all out late) He called this number and just told "the monk is sick". This person reported the strange call further and so it happened that some days later a driver came and picked my person up. Another time this body was prevented to decay.

But also here now. Once my person falls seriously sick, it's mostly a very seldom visit of another todhong monk or people exidently come here.

Like just. Bhante Khemakumara "accidently" came to look after my persons boil behind the ear.

Or two days before Bhante Indannano visited and people offered certain thing. All of which Bhante Khemakumara was in need as he arrived. There would be no medicine, sugar, drinks or such things like thermos bottle here for the most of the time. No to speak about the pleasant weather.

Villager, when they find out later, that my person was serious sick, would always beg: take my telefon-no and call when ever you need something.

If letting things known it's exclusively giving others a change to do something for their benefit.

But this are all just stories for you. Once leaving home, once faith has grown to a required amount, one will see for oneself.

People at large incl. all monks my person had met, agree that it is impossible to live this mode, yet my person knows that it is not without the requirement of just having faith.

At least, either life nor death matters and the maintaining of rupa is totally up a field for others to plant their futures fruits.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 08:35:22 AM by Johann »
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Re: Maintaining relations after going forth
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2018, 09:09:00 AM »
When you describing, it came to my memory, the famous danish monk still living in Sri Lankan wilderness for 50 years. He was an indirect student of Ven. Nanavimala in 1960s.

One of the presidents of Sri Lanka (in 1980s) had asked the danish monk to throw away his all IDs, visas and passports. So he had done. He was lucky.

Here is a link to a rare article of him. meetings-with-remarkable-monk

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Re: Maintaining relations after going forth
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
My person has seen a head picture when opening this link. Seeing a person on the peak of a mountain, with a stick in his hand and making signs of victory with the other was enought to close the browser window again... nothing of value could be found there.

That sounds and seems to be a corrupt story or a story of corruption.


* Johann : if Nyom thinks that he is given to share something for dedicating it to the Sangha here, it's of course good to do so. May he don't mind that certain places far away of that would be not visited.

Maybe Nyom finds also a way to do not hide face and his given name, the gift of his parents. Not only that he again a proper birth in this way here, it makes it also more easy to speak, especially Dhamma. He knows possible, that it is formal not proper to speak Dhamma to one hiding face. But of course his own decision and not demanded. Modern and western People could benefit a lot from a person of integrity from old traditions country who acts in internet not different as he would do at home. It's a great sacrifice and goes very strong against the five(6) kinds of macchariya, of course. But possible to leave family and home behind when entering certain places. One needs to let go to know the benefit of let go.

Nyom should not forget that he is currently in a live-show and so it's good to be just where he is: e.g. leave home to see and understand. Now having come so far till this hermitage in the area where no outwardly protection can be assumed.

Nyom gus ,

Leaving home has nothing to do with Ghandi-like rebellion and passive violence, that's the Tudhonga or the angry frusyrated man, in companion with modern pseudo-liberalism and desire for social revolution. Posison for the whole world and harmful for many, this "romantic" heroism...

Who ever would encourage others, not really free, who ever uses the ways of the sages to cause conflicts for normal society and gives ways to misuse the Gems for improper behaviour toward elders, leaders, patents, one should know him as the fourth kind of Samana.

It's simply a matter of fact that a beggar, a homeless, does not have or maintain any outwardly refuge and lives a live like a bird. It's not something out of aversion or protest or simple disrespect. Holding no rights at all is something many would speak of but havn't met a single till this days, near or far.

Such a life of no protection at all, aside of the Gems, is the possibility for others to either babb or make punna. It's all already left behind, given back.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 09:55:45 AM by Johann »
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Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

Today at 09:00:29 AM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 20, 2018, 02:52:14 AM
Atma leaves for alms round, Nyom Villa.
 

Johann

October 17, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
May all spend meritorious/good and higher last hours of this Sila-day.

Sokh chomreoun (may well being be developed [by everyone])
 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.

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