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Author Topic: "Don't believe even the teacher's advice without thinking" - Ajahn Chah  (Read 417 times)

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Offline gus

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Okasa,

I have read somewhere Ajahn Chah advising monks, saying something similar to the below.

"Don't believe even my advice without thinking and agreeing. If you believe just because of the faith, your primordial mind (thiti bhutam) have always doubts. Then you can't keep the stability of the action."

It seems he was stressing the value of investigation and upright faith.


Vandami.

Offline gus

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Okasa,

Here I found the original.
Quote from: Clarity of Insight - Ajahn Chah
Once the mind is clearly seeing the impermanence of phenomena, we call it
thitibhutam – the internal witness. It is self-sustaining. Hence in the beginning, you should only accept as the truth
about fifty per cent of the things other people tell you.
On one occasion the Buddha gave a discourse to a group of monks, and afterwards asked Venerable
Sariputta, who had been listening:
" Sariputta, do you believe what I have been teaching you? "
" I still don't believe it, Bhante" Sariputta replied. The Buddha was pleased with this response and
continued,
" That is good Sariputta. You shouldn't believe any teaching people give you too easily. A sage must
contemplate thoroughly everything they hear before accepting it fully. You should take this teaching away with you
and contemplate it first."
Even though he had received a teaching from the Buddha himself, Venerable Sariputta didn't
immediately believe every single word of it. He was heedful of the right way to practise, and took the teaching away
with him to investigate it further. He would only accept the teaching if, after reflecting upon the Buddha’s explanation
of the truth, he found that it stimulated the arising of wisdom in his own mind; if this insight led his mind to become at
one with the Dhamma, and that Dhamma to become fixed within his mind. It had to be in accordance with the truth of
the way things are. The Buddha taught his disciples to accept a point of Dhamma only if, beyond all doubt they found
it to be in line with the way things are in reality -- as seen both from one’s own and other people’s experience.

Okasa bhante, I will be grateful if you could just mention the sutta where above discussion of ven. sariputta takes place.

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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It has been posted in same ways, maybe two, three years ago here,, quoting Ajahn Chah and the Sutta, by Atma (my person). It might need a little till Atma remembers the place (topic) again, Deva gus .
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Deva gus ,

Buddhas "test": Pubbakotthaka Sutta: Eastern Gatehous, SN 48:44 .

The story in Living Dhamma, Living wit Dhamma in the World , by Ven. Ajahn Chah (where my person reminded this statement by him) shows maybe also how "Kassapas" find special Nekkhamma, to an extend that not even instruction when the Buddha ask for, to certain young monks/new.

Faith in Awakening , by Ven. Thanissaro also provides with the proper context of this statement in the progress.

This "don't believe" is not for neither sekha nor a-sekha, as long as not seen by one self, even not finally and should be not thought as a general advice (remembering also the right understandig of the Kalama Sutta, thought as invitation to follow ones logic, ideas... as a replacement of Saddha).

It's totaly just food for Mara and illusion, if addopted by "householder", althought very popular and totally wrong introduced by "Dhamma-dealers" in marketing-manner "you can!", "be independent", "free!"

The combination might also give satisfaction on the root of "spinning around" present in many topic, and fundamental, often problematic topic "critic "

If not satisfied, no pīti arises, may it be told.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 06:10:17 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,

So what do you think about ajahn Chah's teachings?
Are they not acceptable?

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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For the most they are "Mahayana"! Higher Virtue, Concentration, Wisdom.

E.g. Teachings for those having left home (on the path), to become Arahats.

Provide certain dangers for householders since to advanced when mind is actually totaly outwardly.

"Householder-disciple" (of him), if meeting Ajahn Chah approaches them personally, are confronted by him, quickly hate Ajahn Chah.

Most people still don't know the essence of meditation practice. They think that walking meditation, sitting meditation and listening to Dhamma talks are the practice. That's true too, but these are only the outer forms of practice. The real practice takes place when the mind encounters a sense object. That's the place to practice, where sense contact occurs. When people say things we don't like there is resentment, if they say things we like we experience pleasure. Now this is the place to practice. How are we going to practice with these things? This is the crucial point. If we just run around chasing after happiness and away from suffering all the time we can practice until the day we die and never see the Dhamma. This is useless. When pleasure and pain arise how are we going to use the Dhamma to be free of them? This is the point of practice...
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 01:15:12 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,

So do you mean,

"Ajahn Chah's teachings are good and correct, but only for people left home, and not for housholeders" ?
or
"unacceptable and mixed with Mahayana ideas" ?

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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At certain point, if the "home" is not left, they can be Mohayana teaching. People at large, householder, love Mohayana, and it does not depend of either they think they are follower of this or that school. It does not matter which outwardly occupation, way of making a living.

But the same counts for teaching of the Buddha, missing context, and if taken and not given, based on the wrong way to attain them. They become poision, or bite like snakes, grasped wrong.

Householders get/take Mahayana teachings, "higher paths", and it's because not having made the home task (German: Haus-aufgabe, giving up (at) home, before... that what children have to do before next morning. word-play), there is no fundation. Having not given in advanced.

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa,

Is that mean "there is no unacceptable teaching of ajahn chah"?

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Let Deva gus let my person answer with another famous persons teaching:

http://accesstoinsight.eu

It's not necessary to hear the good Dhamma from a Buddha/Arahat direct. It's needed that there is no avija-phassa.

When ever touched "at heart", Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha are seen. One has to leave home first.

Why seeking for a home as refuge?

In Simple Terms
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,

I understand what you say about "good, better and best'. And there is no any confusion about the best approach.

If it is allowed to live an pure and independent life lonely, without living under a teacher during the first five years, I think many will do that.

Where they happened to face the problem is when they couldn't find an independent teacher who has not any obligations with lay people or monasteries.

Teachers don't like a student monk who demands/claims high virtues of ajiva than him. Many teachers expel or discourage such students.

On the other hand, the students who live an solitary life without nissaya (because they couldn't find a proper forest teacher), is subject to down-fall.

Many have had to confuse between,
Forest-less teacher and Teacher-less forest
or
Ajivaparisuddhi-less Nissaya and Nissaya-less Ajivaparisuddhi

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Quote from: Deva Gus
If it is allowed to live an pure and independent life lonely, without living under a teacher during the first five years, I think many will do that.

It's "allowed" under certain conditions, under certain determinations. But honest: there would be many confused forest-dweller outside there. But even that, what's the problem: "One can laught at them, if returning to the monastery for medicine." Or just best reintegrate.

If they all would not carry passport, Monk-identifications and human-right. My person really sees no problem at all. And if wishing to kick one, the does Kamma.

May my person ask as for what a person, having gained independency from a teacher, would need Nissaya aside of progressing while Dukkha is not abounded yet?

And yes, that is why the Buddha gave rules in the Mahavagga, of who may accept pupils or young fellows.

Quote from: Deva Gus
...independent teacher...
How does one know? By living together... and what's the problem to walk on if "great love toward ones father fades" or never existed? Gratitude is a real problem if having grown up with "rights", "claim", "demands"... thinking ones goodness and greatness, "I deserve it" had nurished him all the time till, since "able" walk on to possible eat away his last credits. Then they say "my Nissaya is over, I have to go back to the lower life"

Not sure of how monks are called in Sri Lanka, but here they are usually still adressed by "I, Lord of compassion", Preah, Prah (thai.), Brah (pali) by lay people, and monks, it of good community would adress each other equally in respect and not with "you", "john"...

Quote from: Deva Gus
Teachers don't like a student monk who demands/claims high virtues of ajiva than him. Many teachers expel or discourage such students.

What's the problem? What's the need of a teacher if thinking already better then him? What would he learn?

Quote from: Deva Gus
Many have had to confuse between,
Forest-less teacher and Teacher-less forest
or
Ajivaparisuddhi-less Nissaya and Nissaya-less Ajivaparisuddhi

And did the Buddha ever generally encouraged to seek for an Arahat in the forest, or to stay with the a community?

Let people worry about Bhikkuni-Ordination..  :) rather to try their best that the possible lasting Savaka-Sangha meet together, get's open roads and straighten out their unity aside of normal society.

What ever is hold, is lost, or is it improper to draw this from "What ever is given, is not lost."
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,
I'm grateful and pay Vandana on your advices.

Not sure of how monks are called in Sri Lanka, but here they are usually still adressed by "I, Lord of compassion", Preah, Prah (thai.), Brah (pali) by lay people, and monks, it of good community would adress each other equally in respect and not with "you", "john"...
In Sri Lanka monks are addressed "swamin wahanse" (Owner Lord) by younger monks and lay people. Sometimes "Bhante" is used.
Younger monks are addressed "ayushmatun wahanse" (ayasma) by elder monks. occasionally "Avuso" is used.
Lay people and monks who are not familiar with forest traditions, use "hamuduruvo" (Owner Son) to address any younger or elder monk.

Quote from: Deva Gus
Teachers don't like a student monk who demands/claims high virtues of ajiva than him. Many teachers expel or discourage such students.
What's the problem? What's the need of a teacher if thinking already better then him? What would he learn?
I meant if a student need to do dhutangas or follow strict vinaya practices, It is difficult for him to live with a teacher who doesn't have similar virtues. But the teacher may have many virtues and wisdom in other areas.
(eg: Student doesn't like to contact with supporters yet monastery need him to do, Student doesn't like to go to households yet monastery need him to do ..etc.)
If he lives there without being compliant with the teacher's way, the teacher thinks him as disobedient student.

Though there are little number of monks who follow same principles, he can't easily find a nissaya-dayaka teacher who follow or allow such practices.

If he adapted to the monastery's or teacher's way, after living more than 5 years, he will end up with having used to unwanted habits and bonds due to upanissaya. 

It seems either he should secure teacher at the expense of upright practice, or secure upright practice at the expense of teacher. What is the correct way?

*  According to the Dhatu Samyuttha, I think, only the people with similar characteristics can build up a successful relationship.(Like the the wise monks live with Sariputta thero, ascetic monks live with Mahakassapa thero, vinayadhara monks live with Upali thero, ...etc.)

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Quote from: Deva Gus
According to the Dhatu Samyuttha, I think, only the people with similar characteristics can build up a successful relationship.(Like the the wise monks live with Sariputta thero, ascetic monks live with Mahakassapa thero, vinayadhara monks live with Upali thero, ...etc.)

So what's the problem not to meet? Possible ones tendency, not willing to leave a long maintained home?

All what one could lose by letting go is rebirth or? Where does one like to go or become what?

A famous forest monk? It's really not so that others put one in a prison of desire, tanha. Where is the problem? Who likes to protect whom?

(and yes, lay people introduced here, would say "lok majas" wordly "Lord owner" here and there is no fear to give respect to each other under monks as well, in good groups)

One should never forget that great laypeople with much devotion, or great disciples, or even great servants are a blessing for one formal in a higher position.

Khmer monks like to Burma, Thai to Sri Lanka, Burmese...

And what, aside of simply not dwelling with "allergy", if good investigated and known, by the Buddha, if introduced, would Ajahn Chah say?

MANGE

The Buddha said, “Monks, did you see the jackal running around here in the evening? Did you see him? Standing still it suffered. Running around it suffered. Sitting down it suffered. Lying down it suffered. Going into the hollow of a tree, it suffered. Going into a cave, it felt ill at ease. It suffered because it thought, 'Standing here isn't good. Sitting isn't good. Lying down isn't good. This bush isn't good. This tree hollow isn't good. This cave isn't good.' So it kept running all the time. Actually, that jackal has mange. Its discomfort doesn't come from the bush or the tree hollow or the cave, from sitting, standing, or lying down. It comes from the mange.”

You monks are the same. Your discomfort comes from your wrong views. You hold onto ideas that are poisonous and so you're tormented. You don't exert restraint over your senses, so you blame other things. You don't know what's going on inside you. When you stay here at Wat Nong Pah Pong, you suffer. You go to America and suffer. You go to London and suffer. You go to Wat Bung Wai and suffer. You go to every branch monastery and suffer. Wherever you go, you suffer. This comes from the wrong views that still lie within you. Your views are wrong and you hold onto ideas that are poisonous in your hearts. Wherever you go you suffer. You're like that jackal.

Once you recover from your mange, though, you can be at ease wherever you go: at ease out in the open, at ease in the wild. I think about this often and keep teaching it to you because this point of Dhamma is very useful.

Is it the heartwood of the Buddhad teaching that someone, a savior might come one day? Or that one can  liberate oneself by following a path, the Gem?

It's such a subtil mythos, that old days have been better, or. Why than did one wait and still hopes one comes, having missed a chance long time ago already?

And every morning and evening chanting "timeless..."

Doubt and ingratitude, especially to ones own many sacrifices done, to be blessed to still see traces, blessed that the words have been so long transmitted, by so many, even if "just sacrifies" for their ancestors, or for oneself later. Some even simply tried to imitate to keep it alive, maybe also for later...

One does not know if not leaving home but seeks for another house, fearing (possible rightous) to be not supported, gain "bad" "parents"...

Who made one to come here, Deva gus ?

Can anyone force Deva to decisions?

Why beings take birth, even in most worse existences and circumstances?

Who forces one to go back home again?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 09:42:00 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa,
Who likes to protect whom?
And what, aside of simply not dwelling with "allergy", if good investigated and known, by the Buddha, if introduced, would Ajahn Chah say?
Is it the heartwood of the Buddha teaching that someone, a savior might come one day? Or that one can  liberate oneself by following a path, the Gem?
It's such a subtil mythos, that old days have been better, or. Why than did one wait and still hopes one comes, having missed a chance long time ago already?
And every morning and evening chanting "timeless..."
One does not know if not leaving home but seeks for another house, fearing (possible rightous) to be not supported, gain "bad" "parents"...
Who made one to come here, Deva gus ?

I'm grateful on your advises. Vandami.

One should never forget that great laypeople with much devotion, or great disciples, or even great servants are a blessing for one formal in a higher position.
Doubt and ingratitude, especially to ones own many sacrifices done, to be blessed to still see traces, blessed that the words have been so long transmitted, by so many, even if "just sacrifies" for their ancestors, or for oneself later. Some even simply tried to imitate to keep it alive, maybe also for later...

It is very wholesome to hear a talk about gratitude, because,
"Katannu katavedi puggalo dullabho lokasmin".

Can anyone force Deva to decisions?
Who forces one to go back home again?

No sir, I was afraid of longtime companionship upanissaya that may lead to weaken one's virtues slowly.

Vandami

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

gus

October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:21:35 AM
... doing so based on gratitude without just trading in giving, or out of duty in a relation one resits, one is able to get not only to the borders, but into Noble ones domain.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:19:27 AM
And to put much into such sacrifies of giving ones honor, ones dwelling, ones source of food (family), one possession (even intelectual), the Dhamma one has made his own

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