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Author Topic: "Don't believe even the teacher's advice without thinking" - Ajahn Chah  (Read 1603 times)

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Offline gus

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Okasa,

I have read somewhere Ajahn Chah advising monks, saying something similar to the below.

"Don't believe even my advice without thinking and agreeing. If you believe just because of the faith, your primordial mind (thiti bhutam) have always doubts. Then you can't keep the stability of the action."

It seems he was stressing the value of investigation and upright faith.


Vandami.

Offline gus

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Okasa,

Here I found the original.
Quote from: Clarity of Insight - Ajahn Chah
Once the mind is clearly seeing the impermanence of phenomena, we call it
thitibhutam – the internal witness. It is self-sustaining. Hence in the beginning, you should only accept as the truth
about fifty per cent of the things other people tell you.
On one occasion the Buddha gave a discourse to a group of monks, and afterwards asked Venerable
Sariputta, who had been listening:
" Sariputta, do you believe what I have been teaching you? "
" I still don't believe it, Bhante" Sariputta replied. The Buddha was pleased with this response and
continued,
" That is good Sariputta. You shouldn't believe any teaching people give you too easily. A sage must
contemplate thoroughly everything they hear before accepting it fully. You should take this teaching away with you
and contemplate it first."
Even though he had received a teaching from the Buddha himself, Venerable Sariputta didn't
immediately believe every single word of it. He was heedful of the right way to practise, and took the teaching away
with him to investigate it further. He would only accept the teaching if, after reflecting upon the Buddha’s explanation
of the truth, he found that it stimulated the arising of wisdom in his own mind; if this insight led his mind to become at
one with the Dhamma, and that Dhamma to become fixed within his mind. It had to be in accordance with the truth of
the way things are. The Buddha taught his disciples to accept a point of Dhamma only if, beyond all doubt they found
it to be in line with the way things are in reality -- as seen both from one’s own and other people’s experience.

Okasa bhante, I will be grateful if you could just mention the sutta where above discussion of ven. sariputta takes place.

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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It has been posted in same ways, maybe two, three years ago here,, quoting Ajahn Chah and the Sutta, by Atma (my person). It might need a little till Atma remembers the place (topic) again, Deva gus .
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Deva gus ,

Buddhas "test": Pubbakotthaka Sutta: Eastern Gatehous, SN 48:44 .

The story in Living Dhamma, Living wit Dhamma in the World , by Ven. Ajahn Chah (where my person reminded this statement by him) shows maybe also how "Kassapas" find special Nekkhamma, to an extend that not even instruction when the Buddha ask for, to certain young monks/new.

Faith in Awakening , by Ven. Thanissaro also provides with the proper context of this statement in the progress.

This "don't believe" is not for neither sekha nor a-sekha, as long as not seen by one self, even not finally and should be not thought as a general advice (remembering also the right understandig of the Kalama Sutta, thought as invitation to follow ones logic, ideas... as a replacement of Saddha).

It's totaly just food for Mara and illusion, if addopted by "householder", althought very popular and totally wrong introduced by "Dhamma-dealers" in marketing-manner "you can!", "be independent", "free!"

The combination might also give satisfaction on the root of "spinning around" present in many topic, and fundamental, often problematic topic "critic "

If not satisfied, no pīti arises, may it be told.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 06:10:17 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,

So what do you think about ajahn Chah's teachings?
Are they not acceptable?

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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For the most they are "Mahayana"! Higher Virtue, Concentration, Wisdom.

E.g. Teachings for those having left home (on the path), to become Arahats.

Provide certain dangers for householders since to advanced when mind is actually totaly outwardly.

"Householder-disciple" (of him), if meeting Ajahn Chah approaches them personally, are confronted by him, quickly hate Ajahn Chah.

Most people still don't know the essence of meditation practice. They think that walking meditation, sitting meditation and listening to Dhamma talks are the practice. That's true too, but these are only the outer forms of practice. The real practice takes place when the mind encounters a sense object. That's the place to practice, where sense contact occurs. When people say things we don't like there is resentment, if they say things we like we experience pleasure. Now this is the place to practice. How are we going to practice with these things? This is the crucial point. If we just run around chasing after happiness and away from suffering all the time we can practice until the day we die and never see the Dhamma. This is useless. When pleasure and pain arise how are we going to use the Dhamma to be free of them? This is the point of practice...
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 01:15:12 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,

So do you mean,

"Ajahn Chah's teachings are good and correct, but only for people left home, and not for housholeders" ?
or
"unacceptable and mixed with Mahayana ideas" ?

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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At certain point, if the "home" is not left, they can be Mohayana teaching. People at large, householder, love Mohayana, and it does not depend of either they think they are follower of this or that school. It does not matter which outwardly occupation, way of making a living.

But the same counts for teaching of the Buddha, missing context, and if taken and not given, based on the wrong way to attain them. They become poision, or bite like snakes, grasped wrong.

Householders get/take Mahayana teachings, "higher paths", and it's because not having made the home task (German: Haus-aufgabe, giving up (at) home, before... that what children have to do before next morning. word-play), there is no fundation. Having not given in advanced.

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa,

Is that mean "there is no unacceptable teaching of ajahn chah"?

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Let Deva gus let my person answer with another famous persons teaching:

http://accesstoinsight.eu

It's not necessary to hear the good Dhamma from a Buddha/Arahat direct. It's needed that there is no avija-phassa.

When ever touched "at heart", Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha are seen. One has to leave home first.

Why seeking for a home as refuge?

In Simple Terms
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,

I understand what you say about "good, better and best'. And there is no any confusion about the best approach.

If it is allowed to live an pure and independent life lonely, without living under a teacher during the first five years, I think many will do that.

Where they happened to face the problem is when they couldn't find an independent teacher who has not any obligations with lay people or monasteries.

Teachers don't like a student monk who demands/claims high virtues of ajiva than him. Many teachers expel or discourage such students.

On the other hand, the students who live an solitary life without nissaya (because they couldn't find a proper forest teacher), is subject to down-fall.

Many have had to confuse between,
Forest-less teacher and Teacher-less forest
or
Ajivaparisuddhi-less Nissaya and Nissaya-less Ajivaparisuddhi

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Quote from: Deva Gus
If it is allowed to live an pure and independent life lonely, without living under a teacher during the first five years, I think many will do that.

It's "allowed" under certain conditions, under certain determinations. But honest: there would be many confused forest-dweller outside there. But even that, what's the problem: "One can laught at them, if returning to the monastery for medicine." Or just best reintegrate.

If they all would not carry passport, Monk-identifications and human-right. My person really sees no problem at all. And if wishing to kick one, the does Kamma.

May my person ask as for what a person, having gained independency from a teacher, would need Nissaya aside of progressing while Dukkha is not abounded yet?

And yes, that is why the Buddha gave rules in the Mahavagga, of who may accept pupils or young fellows.

Quote from: Deva Gus
...independent teacher...
How does one know? By living together... and what's the problem to walk on if "great love toward ones father fades" or never existed? Gratitude is a real problem if having grown up with "rights", "claim", "demands"... thinking ones goodness and greatness, "I deserve it" had nurished him all the time till, since "able" walk on to possible eat away his last credits. Then they say "my Nissaya is over, I have to go back to the lower life"

Not sure of how monks are called in Sri Lanka, but here they are usually still adressed by "I, Lord of compassion", Preah, Prah (thai.), Brah (pali) by lay people, and monks, it of good community would adress each other equally in respect and not with "you", "john"...

Quote from: Deva Gus
Teachers don't like a student monk who demands/claims high virtues of ajiva than him. Many teachers expel or discourage such students.

What's the problem? What's the need of a teacher if thinking already better then him? What would he learn?

Quote from: Deva Gus
Many have had to confuse between,
Forest-less teacher and Teacher-less forest
or
Ajivaparisuddhi-less Nissaya and Nissaya-less Ajivaparisuddhi

And did the Buddha ever generally encouraged to seek for an Arahat in the forest, or to stay with the a community?

Let people worry about Bhikkuni-Ordination..  :) rather to try their best that the possible lasting Savaka-Sangha meet together, get's open roads and straighten out their unity aside of normal society.

What ever is hold, is lost, or is it improper to draw this from "What ever is given, is not lost."
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa bhante,
I'm grateful and pay Vandana on your advices.

Not sure of how monks are called in Sri Lanka, but here they are usually still adressed by "I, Lord of compassion", Preah, Prah (thai.), Brah (pali) by lay people, and monks, it of good community would adress each other equally in respect and not with "you", "john"...
In Sri Lanka monks are addressed "swamin wahanse" (Owner Lord) by younger monks and lay people. Sometimes "Bhante" is used.
Younger monks are addressed "ayushmatun wahanse" (ayasma) by elder monks. occasionally "Avuso" is used.
Lay people and monks who are not familiar with forest traditions, use "hamuduruvo" (Owner Son) to address any younger or elder monk.

Quote from: Deva Gus
Teachers don't like a student monk who demands/claims high virtues of ajiva than him. Many teachers expel or discourage such students.
What's the problem? What's the need of a teacher if thinking already better then him? What would he learn?
I meant if a student need to do dhutangas or follow strict vinaya practices, It is difficult for him to live with a teacher who doesn't have similar virtues. But the teacher may have many virtues and wisdom in other areas.
(eg: Student doesn't like to contact with supporters yet monastery need him to do, Student doesn't like to go to households yet monastery need him to do ..etc.)
If he lives there without being compliant with the teacher's way, the teacher thinks him as disobedient student.

Though there are little number of monks who follow same principles, he can't easily find a nissaya-dayaka teacher who follow or allow such practices.

If he adapted to the monastery's or teacher's way, after living more than 5 years, he will end up with having used to unwanted habits and bonds due to upanissaya. 

It seems either he should secure teacher at the expense of upright practice, or secure upright practice at the expense of teacher. What is the correct way?

*  According to the Dhatu Samyuttha, I think, only the people with similar characteristics can build up a successful relationship.(Like the the wise monks live with Sariputta thero, ascetic monks live with Mahakassapa thero, vinayadhara monks live with Upali thero, ...etc.)

Vandami.

Offline Johann

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Quote from: Deva Gus
According to the Dhatu Samyuttha, I think, only the people with similar characteristics can build up a successful relationship.(Like the the wise monks live with Sariputta thero, ascetic monks live with Mahakassapa thero, vinayadhara monks live with Upali thero, ...etc.)

So what's the problem not to meet? Possible ones tendency, not willing to leave a long maintained home?

All what one could lose by letting go is rebirth or? Where does one like to go or become what?

A famous forest monk? It's really not so that others put one in a prison of desire, tanha. Where is the problem? Who likes to protect whom?

(and yes, lay people introduced here, would say "lok majas" wordly "Lord owner" here and there is no fear to give respect to each other under monks as well, in good groups)

One should never forget that great laypeople with much devotion, or great disciples, or even great servants are a blessing for one formal in a higher position.

Khmer monks like to Burma, Thai to Sri Lanka, Burmese...

And what, aside of simply not dwelling with "allergy", if good investigated and known, by the Buddha, if introduced, would Ajahn Chah say?

MANGE

The Buddha said, “Monks, did you see the jackal running around here in the evening? Did you see him? Standing still it suffered. Running around it suffered. Sitting down it suffered. Lying down it suffered. Going into the hollow of a tree, it suffered. Going into a cave, it felt ill at ease. It suffered because it thought, 'Standing here isn't good. Sitting isn't good. Lying down isn't good. This bush isn't good. This tree hollow isn't good. This cave isn't good.' So it kept running all the time. Actually, that jackal has mange. Its discomfort doesn't come from the bush or the tree hollow or the cave, from sitting, standing, or lying down. It comes from the mange.”

You monks are the same. Your discomfort comes from your wrong views. You hold onto ideas that are poisonous and so you're tormented. You don't exert restraint over your senses, so you blame other things. You don't know what's going on inside you. When you stay here at Wat Nong Pah Pong, you suffer. You go to America and suffer. You go to London and suffer. You go to Wat Bung Wai and suffer. You go to every branch monastery and suffer. Wherever you go, you suffer. This comes from the wrong views that still lie within you. Your views are wrong and you hold onto ideas that are poisonous in your hearts. Wherever you go you suffer. You're like that jackal.

Once you recover from your mange, though, you can be at ease wherever you go: at ease out in the open, at ease in the wild. I think about this often and keep teaching it to you because this point of Dhamma is very useful.

Is it the heartwood of the Buddhad teaching that someone, a savior might come one day? Or that one can  liberate oneself by following a path, the Gem?

It's such a subtil mythos, that old days have been better, or. Why than did one wait and still hopes one comes, having missed a chance long time ago already?

And every morning and evening chanting "timeless..."

Doubt and ingratitude, especially to ones own many sacrifices done, to be blessed to still see traces, blessed that the words have been so long transmitted, by so many, even if "just sacrifies" for their ancestors, or for oneself later. Some even simply tried to imitate to keep it alive, maybe also for later...

One does not know if not leaving home but seeks for another house, fearing (possible rightous) to be not supported, gain "bad" "parents"...

Who made one to come here, Deva gus ?

Can anyone force Deva to decisions?

Why beings take birth, even in most worse existences and circumstances?

Who forces one to go back home again?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 09:42:00 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline gus

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Okasa,
Who likes to protect whom?
And what, aside of simply not dwelling with "allergy", if good investigated and known, by the Buddha, if introduced, would Ajahn Chah say?
Is it the heartwood of the Buddha teaching that someone, a savior might come one day? Or that one can  liberate oneself by following a path, the Gem?
It's such a subtil mythos, that old days have been better, or. Why than did one wait and still hopes one comes, having missed a chance long time ago already?
And every morning and evening chanting "timeless..."
One does not know if not leaving home but seeks for another house, fearing (possible rightous) to be not supported, gain "bad" "parents"...
Who made one to come here, Deva gus ?

I'm grateful on your advises. Vandami.

One should never forget that great laypeople with much devotion, or great disciples, or even great servants are a blessing for one formal in a higher position.
Doubt and ingratitude, especially to ones own many sacrifices done, to be blessed to still see traces, blessed that the words have been so long transmitted, by so many, even if "just sacrifies" for their ancestors, or for oneself later. Some even simply tried to imitate to keep it alive, maybe also for later...

It is very wholesome to hear a talk about gratitude, because,
"Katannu katavedi puggalo dullabho lokasmin".

Can anyone force Deva to decisions?
Who forces one to go back home again?

No sir, I was afraid of longtime companionship upanissaya that may lead to weaken one's virtues slowly.

Vandami

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Cheav Villa

December 14, 2018, 02:06:47 PM
_/\_  _/\_  _/\_
 

Johann

December 14, 2018, 01:54:10 PM
Better, yes. Lesser fibre, only soft malary attacks seemingly ending. Abscesses going to an end, flu nearly gone and some time walk outside, some
more strength, as well already. Best supported by those near and far, direct, indirect. Sadhu Nyom Villa, Nyom Sophorn.
 

Cheav Villa

December 14, 2018, 01:50:17 PM
Vandami Bhante _/\_
Tomorrow early morning
Vithou, His brotherinlaw and Kana's brother Virak they will leave at 5am to Aural wished to visit Bhante and offering some medecines_/\_
 

Cheav Villa

December 13, 2018, 01:39:00 PM
ព្រះអង្គបានធូរខ្លះហេីយ _/\_
 

Sophorn

December 11, 2018, 04:43:02 PM
 :-* :-* :-*
May Bhante recover fast again
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

December 10, 2018, 12:22:01 PM
...many.May Nyom Sokdina let it be known if he desires for an explaining of why modern ideas and demanding go not at all in conformity with the Buddhas Dhamma but are at large leading downwardly.
 

Johann

December 10, 2018, 12:06:17 PM
Thinking in therms of rights is grave wrong view, miccha ditthi. And there are times when voting is not usefull. Of cause people who go after such ideas simply search for relexation, fun and joy and will be not satisfied by the Dhamma, Nyom Sokdina. Don't follow fools and see the many goodness of ma
 

Kong Sokdina

December 10, 2018, 10:33:43 AM
ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ!
Human rigths!
Women rigths,
Children rights,
Democrecy;
We know the right to do. I use self-reflaction to our mind what are something in. The right way is a good way all wr wish. I have to g
ask you about the breath relaxation, meditatii
 

Cheav Villa

December 10, 2018, 09:43:12 AM
សូមព្រះអង្គបានសម្រាក និងឆាន់ថ្នាំ សូមព្រះអង្គឆាប់ធូរស្បេីយពីរោគា
_/\_
 

Johann

December 10, 2018, 09:12:24 AM
Krun Chan did the arriving appear faster and binds to rest. Everything fine, dhammata.
 

Sophorn

December 10, 2018, 07:03:39 AM
 :-* :-* :-* kana is good. Kana assumes Bhante arrived well at Thmor Touk again.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

December 09, 2018, 02:16:13 PM
Upanissaya, Nyom Villa... "accidents"...
 

Cheav Villa

December 09, 2018, 02:08:10 PM
ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ _/\_
 :D កូណាស្មនត្រូវថាព្រះអង្គនឹងត្រឡប់ទៅដល់អាស្រមវិញនាល្ងាចថ្ងៃអាទិត្យនេះ _/\_
 

Khemakumara

December 09, 2018, 01:33:19 AM
Nyom Sophorn, everything is fine!  How is nyom?
 

Sophorn

December 08, 2018, 05:40:28 PM
 :-* :-* :-* vandami Bhante Khemakura, how is Bhante?
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

December 08, 2018, 05:40:24 PM
 :-* :-* :-* vandami Bhante Khemakura, how is Bhante?
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Cheav Villa

December 07, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Kana Preah Ang _/\_
 

Khemakumara

December 07, 2018, 01:10:24 PM
Nyom Cheav Villa
 

Cheav Villa

December 05, 2018, 02:54:44 PM
Kana thought Bhante Johann could have left Watt Ayum on Tuesday morning _/\_
 

Cheav Villa

December 05, 2018, 12:04:44 PM
ព្រះអង្គ​Inddanano _/\_
 

Kong Sokdina

December 04, 2018, 11:52:14 AM
Sadhu! Kana Prah Ang;
There are many ways to wash & clean the all minds, Preah konmchas; i had been taught by prf. from Spain with theory & practice as well since 2006-2009 and i also let my clients to do like whatever you have told me right now. For me at this time; it should use cognitive behavio
 

Khemakumara

December 03, 2018, 05:06:22 PM
Sadhu!  Möge es Nyom Roman und Nyom Moritz gut er-gehen!
 

Moritz

December 03, 2018, 05:03:40 PM
Ebenso _/\_
 

Roman

December 03, 2018, 04:58:02 PM
ich wünsche Allen einen friedevollen Abend!
 

Roman

December 03, 2018, 04:55:34 PM
Guten Abend Moritz und Bhante Khemakumara
 

Khemakumara

December 03, 2018, 04:54:47 PM
Nyom Moritz Nyom Roman
 

Moritz

December 03, 2018, 04:45:52 PM
Vandami, Bhante Indaññano and Bhante Khemakumara _/\_
 

Cheav Villa

December 03, 2018, 12:05:41 PM
Kana Prah Ang  :D _/\_
 

Khemakumara

December 03, 2018, 12:01:58 PM
Nyom Cheav Villa
 

Johann

December 03, 2018, 09:37:36 AM
Nyom Sokdina. It would be good if Nyom could participate on the up-coming Meditation week-end at Wat Akyum to clean the mind.
 

Kong Sokdina

December 03, 2018, 02:15:52 AM
Nyoms! Last night, a gouhter is affect by irritable cougbhing so it disurbance to sleep.
 

Kong Sokdina

December 03, 2018, 02:11:21 AM
Sadhu! Thanks!
It is just  tried to give up & burn out of bad spiritul inside. Your Wishes isi good for all.
 

Sophorn

December 02, 2018, 08:48:58 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
may you recover well and fast  :-* :-* :-*
 

Kong Sokdina

December 02, 2018, 02:18:46 AM
Respectfully
Today, my is ill with lower blood pressure & blurred sion. But she tries to see because she really praises excellent merit, moral & virtue. How do you think  , as humanbeing?
 

Cheav Villa

December 01, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
 :o ព្រះអង្គស្រេងអាចនឹងដំឡេីងកម្មវិធីទាំងអស់នោះវិញបាននៅពេលក្រោយ ព្រះអង្គ _/\_
 

Johann

December 01, 2018, 12:16:35 PM
Not easy, but Atma has now erased all facebook, messenger.. apps on Bhantes device. Maybe possible to prepar the old Sangha-laptop in proper ways for him.
 

Johann

December 01, 2018, 07:58:21 AM
If wishing, you could use the Pali-language forum, http://sangham.net/index.php/board,26.0.html for your lessons.
 

Cheav Villa

December 01, 2018, 06:57:19 AM
 :D _/\_
 

Johann

December 01, 2018, 06:48:05 AM
.. was written by Johann
 

Indaññāno

December 01, 2018, 06:45:34 AM
It's good to make everything that Huang's may not use messenger and things like Facebook! Of course there is support (given support) needed to do so. Don't pull monks into the worlds markets and ways.
 

Cheav Villa

December 01, 2018, 06:00:30 AM
Kuna Prah Ang  :D _/\_
 

Johann

December 01, 2018, 05:22:57 AM
Bhante is just taking his meal, Nyom.
 

Cheav Villa

December 01, 2018, 04:40:17 AM
ព្រះអង្គ ឥន្ទញាណោ _/\_
 

Sophorn

November 30, 2018, 11:20:52 AM
 :-* :-* :-* sadhu and mudita to hear so.
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Cheav Villa

November 30, 2018, 05:52:17 AM
Sadhu _/\_
 

Johann

November 30, 2018, 05:43:37 AM
Everything "fine", better Dhammata, Nyom. Atma met Nyom. His mind is attentive, he could listen and its up to his own further investigation, blessed, being bound to care only about his breath for the time left.
 

Cheav Villa

November 29, 2018, 02:05:44 PM
តេីសុខភាពពិបាកទ្រាំ ដែរទេព្រះអង្គ? និងលោកតាឧបាសក?
 

Cheav Villa

November 29, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ  :D
_/\_
 

Cheav Villa

November 29, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ  :D
_/\_
 

Khemakumara

November 29, 2018, 11:10:38 AM
Sadhu

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