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Author Topic: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.  (Read 335 times)

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Online gus

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Quote from: Guttila Kavyaya - A Sinhalese poem based on Guttila Jataka
How ever much you do good,
the bad person will never change.
like a coal washed in milk,
does not turn white.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 01:52:33 AM by Johann »

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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2018, 01:24:49 PM »
Deva gus

Such should not be approved. That's the teaching of bias, not understanding, and harmful for oneself and for many, slandering the Tathagata and those worthy to bow for in putting "Namo..." in relation with it.

Why?

Because:
1. there is no such as a inherent goodness or badness to be found anywhere.
2. You could be biased in judging of what is good and what is bad.
3. You could have an improper ārammaṇa to pick out of what is proper to judge.
4. You could be wrongly informed, be corrupted in regard of 1-4.

Ironical the Ninghantas, the Jains, starting with spreading a little metta in this and that direction, just that far, neglecting the use of person, dwelling in householder equanimity do not only try to make themselves attractive with such biased teachings, but have also success in gaining fools following them into Maras prison for a long long time.

And more ironical, they also have success to sell teachings like "beat me, tread me bad... I have metta..."

This is the teaching one catches those who have fallen into low states, those who like to destruct themselves, the petas, those who desided that they are bad and so they do not only love to punish themselves but also in interaction. That is why they are so successful in outward lands void of Arahats, apart from borderlands, drifting into the ozean of death.

So how should one tread people of which he either knows or thinks/assumes to have (still) harmful tendencies?

* Johann : If wishing to test and post something to get a judgement on it, it's not good to put "Namo" in connection with it. And it's not good to put a dispraise in connection with it. Does Deva gus understands the danger in doing otherwise, does Deva understand why one should not say "yes" if either not knowing or just for sociaicing, even cheating for best reason, if deliberated, promted, is a reason to totally get cut off. If having judged wrong, seeing later, correct and pardon it. If letting thing stand wrong, don't destroy the trap, if when ever later one falls into such a pitfall, the transgression is fullfilled, even you might have understood later on. Take care to put no pitfalls out to catch what you would like, since Deva would end up likewise, having fallen into the deep of a transgression an no more way to come up, out, nobody would help a "bad person" easilly.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 01:35:56 PM by Johann »
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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2018, 04:27:41 PM »

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

7. Jigucchitabbasuttaṃ

Should be loathed

27. "Bhikkhus, these three persons are evident in the world. Which three? A certain person should be loathed, should not be associated. The second should be looked after not (closely!) associated and the third should be (closely!) associated.

Bhikkhus, which person should be loathed and not associated?

Here a certain person is unvirtuous, with evil thoughts like rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out. Bhikkhus, this kind of person should be loathed, should not be associated. What is the reason? In some way if this person is not imitated, ill fame spreads, this is an evil friend, an associate of evil. Just as a serpent with excreta on its body would not sting anyone, for he smears excreta. In the same manner an unvirtuous person with evil thoughts similar to rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out should be loathed, should not be associated.

"Bhikkhus, what kind of person should be carefully watched, not (closely!) associated?

Bhikkhus, a certain person is angry and has grudges. When a few words are told he becomes angry swears and retorts angrily showing anger and displeasure, like a festered sore touched by a clod or stone would ooze much pus. Or like a heap of rotting food in a monastery when hit with a clod or stone would give a hissing sound. Or like a heap of excreta when hit with a clod or stone would give an evil smell Bhikkhus, in like manner a person with a mind comparable to a sore is angry, has grudges and when a few words are told he becomes angry, swears and retorts angrily showing anger and displeasure. Bhikkhus, this person should be carefully watched, not (closely) associated. What is the reason? He may scold me, rebuke me (improper!) and do me (=good tendencies in my conducts, and conductive, needed sources present in me, not my defilements) some harm. Therefore this person should be carefully watched, not (closely) associated.

"Bhikkhus, what kind of person should be closely associated?

Here a certain person is virtuous, with good behaviour. Such a person should be associated closely. What is the reason? If for some reason this person is imitated, good fame spreads. He is a good friend, behaves well. Such a person should be associated. These three persons are evident in the world."

"Associating someone low is deterioration,
Associating an equal there's no deterioration
Therefore bend down to a superior,
It is quick growth."

"Be" (act) quick!"
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2018, 04:54:21 PM »
And what are the times, what are the circumstances one should do good even if this person having bad tendencies or one suspects he has?

  • When ever one arrives
  • When one departs
  • When lacking of food
  • When sick
  • When performing actions which are praised and charming for the wise


And who could do good to a person having bad tendencies, is of use for "bad" to get purified?

One who has reached the homeless state may be of use, can give possibilities for purification. Can purify of what a "bad" person may give. Can purify with his compassionate acts, if the "bad" is able to receive his gifts. No matter if the one having reached homeless state might be the teacher or the student, the giver or receiver in certain relations and acts.

And what is a useless association, a waste of merits and time, when people, still having bad tendencies, having not reached the beggar state, housholder, entertain each other for becoming and resisting in Samsara. What ever gifts and sacrifies are made, what ever received is of low value, does neither purify on one or both sides and when trading with the Gems, with things of high value,  for their entertainments, for entertainings sake, then one can be sure that this is an association headed downward, one of the many highways to hell.

Is this understood? Is this penetrated? Are there doubts, further questions, Deva gus ?

Also in asking further, releasing doubt, getting clear and satified with what is conductive, be quick! Connections are not for sure and even the secure shore of the Domain of the Noble Ones not reached yet!

Be quick in leaving home, even for temporary times! Be firm in desiring for it and void householders domains as long as no proper distance like the shining moon can be maintained or has become naturally!

The moon is there as long as this world had not broken appart, be quick in searching for it and learn to trace him even when cloud are present, even if new moon is present. Be quick in learning how to trace his becoming and fading within your current ārammaṇa till you star to shine in distance for your self, weather traced, seen or rememdered by other living in outer lands, having drifted away.

Be quick in this regard no matter is you think that you are good or bad!

This is a field for merits, not for lazy, a camp to work and practice concentration. Be quick before the fields of merits may be gone for long long time.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 05:12:19 PM by Johann »
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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2018, 11:06:16 PM »
Okasa bhante,

I think the poem should not be taken literally. It just mean that there are bad men whom cannot be changed. I think it doesn't mean every bad men.
And yes, I shouldn't have used the dquote for that.
Khamatu me bhante!

Vandami.

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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2018, 03:05:48 AM »
Deva gus ,

what ever pitfall Deva might have erected: try to remember where an "destroy" it, correct it, make it plane, so that nobody might get caught in it. Falls into it, get hurt or dies.
When it happens that someone get harmed or even lost, stepping into what Deva might has placed here or there: the transgression is complete.

Be quick!

* Johann : Atma changed Devas post in start in this regard, but it's not sure that there are always some who look after that being do not hurt each other. So care about the past to possible correct and transgression get not complete as long as possible an connection/access.
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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2018, 05:48:05 AM »
Okasa Bhante,
It is a good poem about ungrateful people though it is not perfect. It is not an evil one. There is an assumption that the reader is wise enough to grasp the meaning.
Vandami.

*  What to do when you oppose everything I do and say.

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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2018, 06:11:31 AM »
Asura gus , assumption is already follish and the poem is biased, product of anger and motivates fools believing the Nighantas/Jain to cut themselves of and sick in the ozean on an island build on pride and conceit, woven by defilements.

Asura asking: "What to do when you oppose everything I do and say."

Maybe regard past deeds not as your own but just the results will cause another becoming (a good or bad) and having reflect on them, seen "oh real", let them behind, never pick up similar again? Try it, one who comes and looks (does) for himself will know. This requires a good birth, dukkha and Saddha. How to gain a good stand? To relay on ones own opinions...? Or by seeking Nissaya, having left home in the world behind?

Be (do) quick (what is skilful), your selfmade island is nearly no more to see from the outer shores.

Would a wise give such advices, if he holds on such foolish poems? Would a Buddha ever teach?
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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2018, 06:26:55 AM »
Okasa,

Asura gus , .. believing the Nighantas/Jain .. sick in the ozean on an island .. build on pride and conceit, ..
Asura asking: ... your selfmade island ..

I think I have done huge demerits, so that monk always condemn me.
Okay, Consider me as a AMD. (Asura micca ditthiko)


Vandami.

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Re: How ever much you do good, the bad person will never change.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2018, 06:58:46 AM »
Does confused wanderer gus sees certain transgression and likes to come out of a whole or does he just like to BE, what ever think good to identify with?
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

gus

October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:21:35 AM
... doing so based on gratitude without just trading in giving, or out of duty in a relation one resits, one is able to get not only to the borders, but into Noble ones domain.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:19:27 AM
And to put much into such sacrifies of giving ones honor, ones dwelling, ones source of food (family), one possession (even intelectual), the Dhamma one has made his own

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