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Talkbox

2019 Jan 17 09:20:36
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻អរព្រះគុណព្រះអង្គBhante . ករុណាបានអាមអត្ថបទដែលព្រះអង្គបានផុសជាភាសាអង់គ្លេសនោះ បានយល់ខ្លះៗហេីយ :D :D

2019 Jan 17 06:45:05
Johann: Being become, appeare always where desired Why beings take birth, even in most worse existences and circumstances?

2019 Jan 17 06:41:35
Johann: One becomes and dwells there where one is inclinated (most anusayā), distinguished gross: 1. world, 1. Nibbana.

2019 Jan 17 06:20:33
Cheav Villa: លោកតាទើបចេះពន្យល់ ខ្ញុំ​មិនសូវ​ដឹងឆ្លើយទេ ^-^

2019 Jan 17 06:19:32
Cheav Villa: សូមចូលមកសរសេរសួរលោកតា នៅវត្ត​ កុំសួរតាមMessenger  :D

2019 Jan 17 06:18:35
Cheav Villa: សួស្តី​បងធី​ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 16:33:43
Cheav Villa: Things to read :D

2019 Jan 16 16:27:50
Cheav Villa: Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 15:28:02
Johann: The Story of Culekasataka (Maha Kassapa and his wife in former life)

2019 Jan 16 15:20:13
Johann: ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក

2019 Jan 16 04:07:43
Khemakumara: Nyom Chanroth

2019 Jan 16 02:09:37
Chanroth: សាធុសាធុសាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 16 02:07:10
Johann: ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក

2019 Jan 16 02:06:36
Chanroth: ជំរាបសួរ Moritz

2019 Jan 16 02:06:31
Johann: "Another day, another possibility. We don't know what tomorrow might be."

2019 Jan 15 19:41:08
Khemakumara: Nyom Moritz

2019 Jan 15 19:38:38
Moritz: Vandami Bhante (Khemakumara) _/\_

2019 Jan 15 17:13:16
Johann: Nyom Puthy, maybe this helps: ការរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុង website .

2019 Jan 15 16:10:29
Ieng Puthy: ព្រះអង្គករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុលាសិនហេីយ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:07:58
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាគ្រាន់តែចូលអាន ករុណាមិនទាន់យល់ពីរបៀបឆ្លេីយនៅក្នុងwebsite នៅឡេីយទេ ព្រះអង្គ 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

2019 Jan 15 16:00:58
Johann: How ever one feels inspired, has joy, likes to give into.  How can I use the forum purposefully, for myself, as well as for others?

2019 Jan 15 15:57:55
Johann: No need to use all possibilities for merits for one alone but good to invite others to join and become more independend till free.

2019 Jan 15 15:04:39
Johann: no requirement to do all, merits step by step. "The path to nibbana is hard", they say, and don't do even little steps, Nyom. As inspired, its at least a working and concentration camp, Devas delight in creation, Devas having contr. over the creation of others.

2019 Jan 15 14:53:43
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គការបកប្រែមកជាខ្មែរ  មានខុសច្រើនណាស់  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 14:49:16
Khemakumara: leng Puthy

2019 Jan 15 14:48:29
Khemakumara: Nyom leng Pitts

2019 Jan 15 14:45:35
Johann: There is a lot of new for many. If the Nyom Ladies like to help in translating here and there a little, it might be easier for khmer-speaking monks to get informed well.

2019 Jan 15 14:25:23
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 13:33:34
Khemakumara: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 13:32:47
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 13:27:53
Johann: Bhante Muni

2019 Jan 15 10:46:40
Johann: But a topic can be opened everywhere and can then be moved.

2019 Jan 15 10:45:27
Johann: There is also a Link to direct Requests for Teachings - link, so things get not lost.

2019 Jan 15 10:44:12
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាព្រះអង្គ🙏🏻អរព្រះគុុណ ព្រះអង្គ

2019 Jan 15 10:42:55
Johann: Good place is surely at  Dhammatalks - (dhamma desanā)

2019 Jan 15 10:35:06
Johann: Talkbox is not proper, just for greating and small-talk

2019 Jan 15 10:24:47
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ព្រះអង្គ តេីមានធម៌អ្វីដែលអាចកំចាត់ធម៌លោភៈល្អិតនៅក្នុងចិត្តបានដែរឬទេ ?ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 15 10:21:37
Johann: Just open a new topic best, Nyom Puthy (requires some bhava-chanda)

2019 Jan 15 10:17:22
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 15 10:07:10
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គ Vandami Banthe

2019 Jan 15 10:01:15
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុ ព្រះអង្គមុនី! ករុណាមានសំណួរ១អំពី អនុស្ស័យកិលេសមាន៧ គឺ 1-កាមរាគានុស្ស័យ 2-ភវនុស្ស័យ3

2019 Jan 15 09:31:36
Cheav Villa:  :)  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:27:54
Chanroth: ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុន្នី ពីរអាស្រមថ្មទូក_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 09:21:46
Chanroth: បាតជំរាបសួរបងស្រី ខ្ញុំមិនទាន់បានធ្វេីនៅឡេីយទេ ពីព្រោះខ្ញុំឈឺ បានធូហេីយ តែមិនទាន់បាត់ថ្លោះករនៅឡេីយ _/\_

2019 Jan 15 08:57:49
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គមុនី  _/\_

2019 Jan 15 07:34:19
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara

2019 Jan 15 05:57:47
Cheav Villa: តើពូកំពុងជួយការងារលោកតាមែនទេ?តើនៅអាស្រមមានកង្វះខាតអ្វីទេនៅពេលនេះ

2019 Jan 15 05:54:51
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរពូចាន់រ័ត្ន _/\_

2019 Jan 15 01:12:12
Johann: And "we" wouldn't always know or find out but need to relay on one who know

2019 Jan 15 01:06:48
Johann: There are two kinds of sadness and happiness, of which one of each is conductive for liberation, one not.

2019 Jan 15 01:02:24
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we always be able to find out for ourselves how much attachment we accumulate, and whether this brings us happiness or sorrow! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 15 01:00:52
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mögen wir immer  selbst herausfinden kӧnnen, wie viel Anhaftung wir anhäufen und ob  diese Anhaftung uns die Frӧhlichkeit oder  die Traurigkeit bringt! Dhamma Grüβe aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 13:52:41
Johann: Nyom Puthy. May you all have good Dhamma conversations with each other, don't be shy on that. Atma will go to rest.

2019 Jan 14 13:48:00
Johann: ញោម ចាន់រ័ត្ន

2019 Jan 14 12:49:01
Cheav Villa: អរព្រះគុណព្រះអង្គ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 12:36:20
Mohan Gnanathilake: May we possess the causes of blissfulness always! Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 12:35:18
Mohan Gnanathilake: Mӧgen wir immer die Ursachen der Glückseligkeit besitzen! Dhamma Grüβe  aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Jan 14 10:20:32
Johann: "នាងវិសាខា ក្រាបបង្គំទូលថា ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំម្ចាស់រក្សាឧបោសថៈព្រះអង្គ។"...

2019 Jan 14 09:49:40
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 06:59:34
Cheav Villa: Jain-Upossathaកូណាមុិនទាន់យល់ន័យនៃពាក្យនេះទេ _/\_

2019 Jan 14 05:12:41
Johann: "មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន"... មែន(sense)ទុក្ខឬមិន? Where?

2019 Jan 14 04:57:55
Johann: Buddha and Savaka do not teach Jain-Uposatha: អ្នកណា​មាទុក្ខ? , Sadhu

2019 Jan 14 04:50:21
Johann: ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល! មានទេមិនមាន ... ការនិយាយអំពីសត្វ។ ធម៌ទាំងអស់មានមូលហេតុ ដូច្នេះ: រឿងដំបូងនៅលើកដំបូង!

2019 Jan 14 04:21:59
Cheav Villa: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួន ជាអនត្តាធម៌ ជាធម៌អសេង្ខបុគ្គល  _/\_

2019 Jan 14 04:16:00
Johann: មិនមែនជារបស់ខ្លួនទេ = មិនមែនទុក្ខទេ

2019 Jan 14 04:06:00
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 14 04:05:16
Johann: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា !

2019 Jan 14 02:18:42
Chanroth: ទុក្ខំ អនិច្ចំ អន្តតា

2019 Jan 13 15:16:49
Johann: First things first , very recommended, hearing the Uposatha of the Jains from the Villages all the time here.

2019 Jan 13 15:05:49
Johann: again and again coming back to Dhamma, Punja? Habits become destinies.

2019 Jan 13 14:53:42
Johann: coming back seems to be niccaŋ

2019 Jan 13 14:40:52
Cheav Villa: អនិច្ចំ *sgift*

2019 Jan 13 14:29:43
Ieng Puthy:  Chom reap leah , good bye🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:18:50
Moritz: Chom reap leah, good bye _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:11:50
Ieng Puthy: Hello Master Morithz🙏🏼

2019 Jan 13 14:07:24
Moritz: Hello Ieng Puthy _/\_

2019 Jan 13 14:07:16
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jan 13 13:54:34
Ieng Puthy: ជំរាបសួរ បងចាន់រ័ត្ន Bong Chanroth 🙏🏼សូមបងឆាប់បានជាសះស្បេីយ

2019 Jan 13 13:49:26
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Jan 13 09:17:06
Chanroth: ខ្ញំបានជាហើយ តែវេទនាបានកើតឡើងចំពោះខ្ញុំ បញ្ហាថ្លោះកករ :-\

2019 Jan 13 07:49:41
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរពូចាន់រ័ត្ន ពូបានធូរស្បើយហើយមើលទៅ :D _/\_

2019 Jan 13 07:48:35
Cheav Villa: Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 13 07:47:10
Johann: May all spent a meritful Siladay today or tomorrow.

2019 Jan 13 05:07:45
Chanroth: ជំរាបសួរបងស្រី វីឡាខ្ញុំបាទchanroth _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 13 00:05:39
Ieng Puthy: ករុណាព្រះអង្គ Bhante 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 12 09:04:48
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 11 13:49:09
Cheav Villa: Thank you Bang Thy. Good come in and out  :D _/\_

2019 Jan 11 13:41:49
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jan 11 13:13:35
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻ជំរាបសួរបងប្អូនធម្មមិត្តទាំងអស់គ្នា chumreap sour Dhamma friends !  May all have a good evening

2019 Jan 11 13:04:15
Ieng Puthy: ករុណា ព្រះអង្គ Bhante 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Jan 09 17:17:52
Cheav Villa: Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jan 09 16:12:53
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Jan 09 05:06:55
Johann: Nyom Puthy

2019 Jan 09 00:43:24
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jan 08 16:15:17
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ Khemakumara Bhante

2019 Jan 08 16:13:20
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ Inddanano Bhante

2019 Jan 08 16:11:09
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 កូរុណាថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ​ vandami Bhente

2019 Jan 08 12:48:21
Moritz: May all have a good evening _/\_ Chom reap leah _/\_

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Author Topic: Vinaya Comparison of Monastery Allowances - ordination based on choclate and che  (Read 2532 times)

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Online Johann

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  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
New article: Compares special allowances by tradition. The BMC is based on the Thai Tradition. I include Dhammayut and the Ajahn Chah (Wat Pah Pong) tradition. I also include Wat Khao Sanamachai and Pa-Auk which follow the commentaries and abhidhamma meticulously. Na-Uyana is also similar too. I give a discussion on smoking, betel, cheese, chocolate, soy milk, abhidhamma/commentaries, robe color, eyebrows, and patimokkha admission policies.
see this link here.
https://americanmonk.org/vinaya-compari ... llowances/

Subhuti

What a foolish act of young yupi-monk...

- It's, to begin, not a monastery that is responsible for one conduct...
- It's furthermore a gratiduteless and poor investigated product, with no doubt on been based on very unskilful mind.
- Even if certaincritic would be justified: how small are the faults in if looking at the bunch of grave faults here to lift oneself...:

Is it allowed to speak of faults of other Bhikkhus to lay-people?
Isn't it highly respectless to speak on Vinaya without having given leave?
Are the means of sharing given?
What are the consequences of going for split in the Sangha?

There no need to speak about the accumulated Kamma and the bunch of backwards given to those bond to fools.

Having dwelled a longer time improper on the beach and missing to clean yourself from the bunch of fault and impure livelihood, it would be good if the Americanmonk... would head for getting good back to the beginning rather than to dwell Nissayaless like an Arahat and eat away the last goodness and merits and possible get one time known real life and the way beyond.

As you are used to censure critic while shooting outwardly from your secure thought position, there is no doubt that you have found equal here, nourishing on the same ugly food.

May you start to take the Buddhas medicine proper to get soon healed in the case you see some benefit in such. No doubt that therwise you may disrobe soon or become another Dhammika-shame for the increase of misfortune in this world... Your choice.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 09:56:03 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Re: Vinaya Comparison of Monastery Allowances
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 08:36:27 AM »
Since account was already deleted under your kind, Subhuti in the case interested:

Everything I say is in the BMC. What is not in the BMC, the the reason why it is not followed by "other" traditions.
Everything mentioned is public knowledge and I double checked with another monk who is well informed of the Thai Forest Traditions..
There are no names mentioned but it is the way of the tradition.
WKS used to have cheese. They stopped that once they learned that other traditions don't accept that. They researched it and they stopped. They are a righteous tradition which I have lots of respect for.
There is no purpose to criticize the monks. If there is criticism on this forum it is from the users commenting on this article.. I said in the beginning that it is small stuff and the monasteries that are mentioned who live up to their tradition's reputation, are good monks and good monasteries. That is said in the beginning.
The purpose of this is to let people know who want to ordain and decide what is the best monastery for them.

Quote from: Johann
So following master Subhutis word: On the matter of chees "our" monastery lures canditates and doners away to them. Well, shell one prosper with people deciding the path for liberation on such matters, chocolate and chess...

And as drive we insult some Theras of having wrong view... whole Nikayas, putting oil and flames together. And when small-minded of other branches get that known, well, then have "fun" with what you seeked for. It tops even the "color of bolws" blog... Master would do good to start to learn about highered virtue, mind and liberation. Run-a-mill virtue is not suficent for such.

Don't think others do not know the "smarties"-gangs.

To cite resources, one time to using for ones arguments, on time to put it down, also such is very common inside the affliction based on an element.

The way, the kind, the base, the intention... not a single sign for skillfulness but the opposite and who honest things are done, one just needs to remember how master started hus Ajahn Mun researches "not for critic... just courious... does one have resources?"

It's not good, totally not good, to dwell alone and play "lay-mans-hero" who possible fall after suggsetions and think in ways of "I have a right".

Quote from: Subhuti
Samana Johann3 ,
Few people know about Cambodia as a place where foreigners can live or ordain. What is you monastery name and location. Do they use money?
Perhaps you can fill out the table with the topics included according to such a monastery you live in.
You should be open about it. It is not a problem for them and they don't keep it secret. In fact, they want people to know this so people can offer Cheese, Cigarettes, betel etc. Many monasteries are happy and train the lay people to give money to monks. They are open about it because they get all of these things from the lay people.
Let us know the name location and what they do. However, if they use money, I'm not interested in knowing. It is not an allowable place to live in because if they "buy" a floor or paint with money that monks have touched, then the whole building is not allowable.

Quote from: Johann
If one feel in terms of foreigner or matches issues as such, having left home behind and seeks for ordination within the Sangha, then ones setting or Nissaya has still large graps. Likewise when one ordains in a certain Nikaya, Branch or what ever rather then asking for going forth under the Buddha, Dhamma , Sangha... not to speak about monastery attachments...

Sad enought that you internet monks seek householders to bring up issues, non of yo heros has the courage to live at first on what is personally given nor would any of you heros ever use the Sanghas tools and given places for things. Like calves attached on the breast of cow...

May person would wonder of how Masters home-monasteries elders, and preceptor would react it getting the stuff around transated their offspring produces...

Master Subuthi has already been invited (another time here )to live a life without out householder signs and since there might be shipps to cross the ozean, and wise people who might invite to use a co-travel, there will be no hindrence, like to come the hawaii.... Don't do the smart guys poker, it could be more painful as able to imagen. Master has no idea of what it means to live really on what is given. The invitation is still intact since there are less places open to live the holly live and even lesser who could without social-nets and certain "Gita"s... use.

As for the places for training, there are some, but it's hard to doubt that a normal western with less Upanissaya is able to bear certain actually already more luxury conditions, not to speak about the less and very remoted monasteries.

A list of some monasteries can be found here: some with this useless preoccupation sturgles, some with others. And, as far as known, as far as seen or heard, my person did not met a single person able to keep 10 precepts, no matter, west or east, sadly. Great if trying to train, great if trying to match five.

And one should be aware that it's possible no more able to find such as a full funcioning Savaka-Sangha anywhere, but of course he and there are single, manybe two most Ven. fund who would suite as precepter or teacher. Also this is a atter of Upanissaya for the individuall. It's totally useless and foolish to thing it's possible to "google" perfection: it requires having given the proper causes to gain effects. So it's total foolish to lure uninstracted people with such suggestions, taking even run-a-mill issues. Within the no-chocolate, chees, tobacco traditions, even addvertising it, if not other ways of doing, this at least has already shoot them off by Sg. 13. like the most modern "we are meditator not even drink tee Noble ones"-traditions. And how and where would they ever get ride of this fault? Master?

Again, if searching for "Smarties" and there day in and day out philosophical investigations, who are not able to train in highered virtues, there are enought to be found also many "bad" guys as food for them.

The sad thing, especially with this neither sekha nor asekha monks all around is, that they hardly would care about there new family but serving householders, that is really sad. Yet of course, like they broadly had corrupted families, they hardly ever find ways out again... Just for the case some likes to make merits or one or another of you Ven. "Yupy"-monks feels obligated for his kind and his focus of service obligation.

Quote
MANGE

The Buddha said, “Monks, did you see the jackal running around here in the evening? Did you see him? Standing still it suffered. Running around it suffered. Sitting down it suffered. Lying down it suffered. Going into the hollow of a tree, it suffered. Going into a cave, it felt ill at ease. It suffered because it thought, 'Standing here isn't good. Sitting isn't good. Lying down isn't good. This bush isn't good. This tree hollow isn't good. This cave isn't good.' So it kept running all the time. Actually, that jackal has mange. Its discomfort doesn't come from the bush or the tree hollow or the cave, from sitting, standing, or lying down. It comes from the mange.”

You monks are the same. Your discomfort comes from your wrong views. You hold onto ideas that are poisonous and so you're tormented. You don't exert restraint over your senses, so you blame other things. You don't know what's going on inside you. When you stay here at Wat Nong Pah Pong, you suffer. You go to America and suffer. You go to London and suffer. You go to Wat Bung Wai and suffer. You go to every branch monastery and suffer. Wherever you go, you suffer. This comes from the wrong views that still lie within you. Your views are wrong and you hold onto ideas that are poisonous in your hearts. Wherever you go you suffer. You're like that jackal.

Once you recover from your mange, though, you can be at ease wherever you go: at ease out in the open, at ease in the wild. I think about this often and keep teaching it to you because this point of Dhamma is very useful.

As long as the strong wave of wrong views and demanding Western/moderns are very very less in Cambodia it will remain a land of where Khmer (Khema) might dwell. So just if willing to let go and prepared for a battle hard to win. Otherwise use google or ask social-monks of what might be the best monastery, they might give you the "I/we have a right" deal offer. Here a topic of someone having appeared like a twin of master: What is the best monastery to ordain ?

Since it could be that Bhikkhu Subhuti was serious when asking (which of course has less space of being the case, but anyway), my person moved the topic to public (since modern monks are lesser scared to enter what is not given and follow the "Villagers ways", collector and hunter ways, usually...).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 09:55:14 AM by Johann »
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There are many people who, because treated by small minded people and there views, break up the training because of health proplems, having simply problems to maintain their body, having not the best digestion or immune system. And there are not less. Sadly in association with fools who by giving their ideas more value as to provide with helpful alternatives even force people to give up their training, leave Brahmachariya, quite with eight precepts and also disrobe.

To understand the spirit of tonics:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.VI.1.1) [25] Now at that time the Buddha, the Blessed One, was staying at Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s Monastery. And at that time, the bhikkhus, afflicted by the autumn disease, would throwup the conjey they had drunk and the meals they had eaten. Because of this they were thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins. The Blessed One saw them — thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins — and on seeing them, addressed Ven. Ānanda,

“Ānanda, why are the monks, at this time, thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins?”

“Lord, at this time the monks, afflicted by the autumn disease, throw up the conjey they have drunk and the meals they have eaten. Because of this they are thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.”

(Mv.VI.1.2) Then, as the Blessed One was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness:

“At this time the monks, afflicted by the autumn disease, throw up the conjey they have drunk and the meals they have eaten. Because of this they are thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.

“What if I were to allow medicine for them that would be both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food, yet would not be considered substantial food.”

Then the thought occurred to him: “There are these five tonics — ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses — that are both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food, yet would not be considered substantial food.

“What if I were now to allow the monks, having accepted them at the right time (from dawnrise to noon), to consume them at the right time?”

(Mv.VI.1.3) Then, when it was evening, the Blessed One rose from seclusion and, having given a Dhamma talk with regard to this cause, to this incident, addressed the monks:

“Just now, monks, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness:

“‘At this time the monks, afflicted by the autumn disease, throw up the conjey they have drunk and the meals they have eaten. Because of this they are thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.

“‘What if I were to allow medicine for them that would be both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food, yet would not be considered substantial food.’

“Then this thought occurred to me: ‘There are these five tonics — ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses — that are both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food yet would not be considered substantial food.

“‘What if I were now to allow the monks, having accepted them at the right time (from dawnrise to noon), to consume them at the right time?’

“Monks, I allow that the five tonics, having been accepted at the right time, be consumed at the right time.”

(Mv.VI.1.4) [26] Now at that time monks, having accepted the five tonics at the right time, consumed them at the right time. (Because of this) they could not stomach even ordinary coarse foods, much less rich, greasy ones. As a result, afflicted both by the autumn disease and this loss of appetite for meals, they became even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins. The Blessed One saw them — even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins — and on seeing them, addressed Ven. Ānanda,

“Ānanda, why are the monks now even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins?”

(Mv.VI.1.5) “At this time, the monks, having accepted the five tonics at the right time, consume them at the right time.

“Because of this they can’t stomach even ordinary coarse foods, much less rich, greasy ones.

“As a result, afflicted both by the autumn disease and this loss of appetite for meals, they are even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.”

Then the Blessed One, having given a Dhamma talk with regard to this cause, to this incident, addressed the monks:

“Monks, I allow that the five tonics, having been accepted, be consumed at the right time or the wrong time.”

(Mv.VI.2.1) [27] Now at that time the sick monks needed tallow-medicine. They reported the matter to the Blessed One.

“Monks, I allow that tallow-medicine — i.e., tallow from bears, tallow from fish, tallow from alligators, tallow from pigs, tallow from donkeys — be consumed as oil if received in the right time, rendered in the right time, and filtered in the right time.[2]

(Mv.VI.2.2) “Monks, if one should consume what is received in the wrong time, rendered in the wrong time, and filtered in the wrong time: three offenses of wrong-doing.

“Monks, if one should consume what is received in the right time, rendered in the wrong time, and filtered in the wrong time: two offenses of wrong-doing.

“Monks, if one should consume what is received in the right time, rendered in the right time, and filtered in the wrong time: an offense of wrong-doing.

“Monks, if one should consume what is received in the right time, rendered in the right time, and filtered in the right time: no offense.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(១៦០. បញ្ចភេសជ្ជកថា)

[៧៣] សម័យនោះ ព្រះពុទ្ធដ៏មានព្រះភាគ គង់នៅវត្ត​ជេតពន​របស់អនាថបិណ្ឌិកសេដ្ឋី ទៀបក្រុងសាវត្ថី។ គ្រានោះឯង ពួក​ភិក្ខុកើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាល​33) បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ។ ព្រោះហេតុនោះ ពួក​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះក៏​មានខ្លួនស្គាំងស្គម​សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរ​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ។ ព្រះដ៏មានព្រះភាគ​បានទតឃើញ​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ​ស្គាំងស្គម សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរអាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ លុះទតឃើញ​ហើយ ក៏ត្រាស់ហៅព្រះអានន្ទ​ដ៏មានអាយុ​មកថា ម្នាលអានន្ទ ក្នុងពេលនេះ ហេតុដូចម្តេច​បានជា​ពួក​ភិក្ខុ​ស្គាំងស្គម សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរអាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ។ ព្រះអានន្ទ​ក្រាបទូលថា បពិត្រព្រះអង្គ​ដ៏ចំរើន ឥឡូវនេះ ពួក​ភិក្ខុ​កើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាល បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ ព្រោះអាពាធនោះ បានជា​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះស្គំាងស្គម ​សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរ​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ។ គ្រានោះ ព្រះ​មានព្រះភាគ ទ្រង់​គង់​សម្ងំ​នៅក្នុងទីស្ងាត់ ក៏មានព្រះ​ហឫទ័យ​ត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ឥឡូវនេះ ពួកភិក្ខុកើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាល បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ ព្រោះអាពាធនោះហើយ បានជា​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ ទៅជាស្គាំងស្គម ​សៅហ្មង មាន​សម្បុរ​​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ (ឥឡូវ) វត្ថុដែល​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ក៏មាន វត្ថុដែលគេសន្មត​ថាជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ក៏មាន វត្ថុដែលផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោក ក៏មាន វត្ថុដែលជា​​អាហារ​មិនបានគ្រោតគ្រាត ក៏មាន តើគួរ​តថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​វត្ថុ​ដូចម្តេច ទើបសមគួរ​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ដល់ភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយហ្ន៎។ លំដាប់នោះ ព្រះមានព្រះភាគ ទ្រង់​ត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥នេះគឺ ទឹកដោះរាវ១ ទឹកដោះខាប់១ ប្រេង១ ទឹកឃ្មុំ១ ស្ករអំពៅ១ វត្ថុ​ទាំងនេះ ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ផង ដែលគេ​សន្មត​ថាជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ផង ផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោកផង ​ជាអាហារ​មិនបានគ្រោតគ្រាតផង បើដូច្នោះ មានតែតថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥​នេះដល់​ពួកភិក្ខុ​ ដើម្បី​ឲ្យភិក្ខុ​ទទួល​ក្នុងកាលគួរ ឆាន់ក្នុង​កាលគួរ​34) ​បាន។ ព្រោះនិទាននេះ ដំណើរនេះ ទើបព្រះមានព្រះភាគ ទ្រង់ចេញ​អំពីទីសម្ងំ ក្នុងទីស្ងាត់ នៅវេលា​សាយណ្ហសម័យ ហើយទ្រង់​ធ្វើ​ធម្មីកថា រួចត្រាស់​ហៅ​ភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ​មកថា ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ ក្នុងវេលានេះ តថាគត​សម្ងំ​នៅក្នុងទីស្ងាត់ មានចិត្តត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ឥឡូវនេះ ពួកភិក្ខុកើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាលហើយ បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ ព្រោះអាពាធនោះ ទើបបានជា​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ​ស្គាំងស្គម ​សៅហ្មង មាន​សម្បុរ​​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ វត្ថុខ្លះ​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ វត្ថុខ្លះដែលគេសន្មត​ថាជាភេសជ្ជៈ វត្ថុខ្លះផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោក វត្ថុខ្លះជា​​អាហារ​មិន​បាន​គ្រោត​គ្រាត តើគួរ​តថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​វត្ថុ​ដូចម្តេច ទើបសមគួរ​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ដល់ភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយហ្ន៎ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ តថាគតឯង មានសេចក្តី​ត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥នេះគឺ ទឹកដោះរាវ១ ទឹកដោះខាប់១ ប្រេង១ ទឹកឃ្មុំ១ ស្ករអំពៅ១ របស់​ទាំងនេះ ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ផង ដែលគេ​សន្មត​ថា​ជា​ភេសជ្ជៈ​​ផង ផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោកផង ​ជាអាហារ​មិនបាន​គ្រោត​គ្រាត​ផង បើដូច្នោះ មានតែតថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥​នេះ ដល់​ភិក្ខុ​ទាំងឡាយ​ ដើម្បី​ឲ្យភិក្ខុ​ទទួល​ក្នុងកាលគួរ បរិភោគក្នុង​កាលគួរ។ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ តថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​ឲ្យភិក្ខុ​ទទួល​ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥នោះ ក្នុងកាលគួរ បរិភោគ​ក្នុងកាលគួរ។

So it is not so that this 5 tonics are pure medical means in modern sense, put simply support in nutrition. Yet at the same time not considered as stable food but very effective in supplying with substance.

One of cause needs to know circumstances when ones body is no more/not maintainable with just one meal.

Autumn disease, causing much trouble with the immune system, but also disease like Malaria, if such, and that is not seldom in South East Asia, especially when dwelling in forest and mountain area, such as appetite is very rare and if a person is practicing he furthermore has not much effort in regard of food and care.

It was for example surely up to this allowances and wise consideration of not at least Ven. Thanissaro, that lay people have been able to successfully maintain this body by supplying certain tonics.

Cheese, Ghee, Butter, Oil, Sugar:

One needs to know that what ever is made from cow-milk in SEAsia is merely unknown and it's only the last years that people know products such as butter and chees, yet those are 100% import products in Cambodia.

Ghee is even in Europe and other countries outside of India merely unknown.

Modern/western people at large, have no real idea about food as simple nurishing the body, neither know starving nor being left to sickness without countless ways to act against it.

In regard of chees as an alternative to Ghee, there are many kinds of unreal chees, mostly from American food industry, using milk as additive. Such "fake"-chees is probably not proper. But what ever chees with high amount of fat and less special preparation, such as fungi and special additives, like chedar or certain mozarella might provide the spirit. Chees of this kind can be kept for a week without getting addled.

Effective is also sugar/palm sugar headed mixed with oil and can be stored a week also without problem.

There is also no reason at all why not using dark chocolate (without milk and other additives then oil and sugar) for this purpose.

Coffee, coffein, Energy-drinks

Even in the Suttas (DN21...) such as the Cola-nut can be found as standard support for ascetics, making various drinks... out of it as well, yet containing much more fat and coffein as coffee.

Certain energy-drinks are in many areas the only provider of certain Vitamins, sugar and tonic-means.

One has to know that living really on alms can be very single-edged. So one should not be scared in using such for tonic, not to speak about iso-tonic drinks.

It's a different life as that of monks using subway, marked and fastfood coupons and credit certificates, yet insulting others because they using money as well. That's all but hypocritical approaches of yuppies and to argue their particular work around on short commings which are mostly of actually grave faults.

Another supply in the "wrong time for eating" is to drink prepeared rest water from rice-cooking, if provided with such on the very same day. If, in cases that such is not avaliable, flour would be cooked in water, it might serve the same spirit.

Those topics around tonics and medicine can be food for endless discussions but if knowing the rules and red-string within them and if maintaining Sacca (truthfulness toward one self and intentions) there are really less grave problems with the many allowance given and again, one should not grow discouraged in regard of matters that touching health and basic health support to maintain this decaying body till it has done it's task well. And after this: may one also leave others the possibility to maintain such a lasting body further, in proper ways and how ever they may wish and think to keep it maintained.

It was not only one time that it is simply by wise, sometimes tricky consideration and effort of people with Saddha, that this body did not already serves as food for many others and is still compounded and serves for doing merits for others.

Real ascetic live has nothing to do with modern wellness approaches, diet-views and what ever modern monks and health, youth, life-drunken people develop on ideas, starting from vegetarian, vegan, wellness food, bio... the whole industry of identification. Yet, if such people who "i need" in various ways start to interpret, that it's simply an act of justify short-comings and to try to lift themselves out of real grave faults be belittling others. But that does not work. It's not possible to use others to step on them to leave ones hole one has fallen into.

And in regard of the money issue: as said, my person has not really come across maybe one or two people who really keep this precept. Sad but true... how ever, my person found those of them, now still incapable, who use it by themselves (and have to be ashamed all the time) more authentic and with possible better future, as those who rest on what ever hypocritical alternative or using others like kings to hold on such as certain gains or to maintain the feeling of control of own.

Now what does one think about a smarty, trying to teach elders, whole Nikayas and lives in such ways, with such desires... and really improper "connecting", livelihood...

Never the less as you can see things have been getting better.  I can get a can of organic soup and a nonGMO health bar from The North Shore Pharmacy courtesy of the owner.  I also have a new connection with the local Health Food store, but have not successfully tried it yet.  If that works, I will be on the road to independence.  Luckily my long time friend who lives on Aalona street prepares extra food for me as needed.  Today I had some oats and a salad from him.  It was not just a small salad either.  It was a whole bowl to feed a family of five. 

If I really need it, I have a Subway sandwich ticket waiting for me at the local Subway shop.  I usually take one every two or three weeks when my friend is not available to give me oats and salads.  They know me at the Subway shop and the ticket for a vegi-patty Sub is now waiting for me to claim it.  The subs will soon be replaced by the generosity of the owners from the local health food store if communication is correct.

So I do get fed, and yes, sometimes quite well, but not from alms alone.  It is not so easy though.

Again: The moderate mode of life of Noble Ones and those following them, has nothing to do with modern wellness-ideologies and hypocritical ideas to "feel good" and the different is possible only then understood when one really leaves home, really abounds all signs of householders and really lives in ways to maintain the body with given for just another day.

Beetle nuts

My person does not really know much on this subject and got just informed on one reason why elders often use it, a very simple and reasonable, to reduce pain caused by decaying teeth, something propably merely unknown in modern world and for those holding certain founds.

One should be clear that such as "going to the doctor" or even regulary checks... may just be common in very organised sociaties but for someone not living on any special dependency, it's merely very accidentally that ones body would be supplied by modern treatments.
Out of this my person would be careful judging especially elders when using such in total improper ways.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 11:08:12 AM by Johann »
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