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Talkbox

Like when enter or join, a shrine, another's sphere, or back: good for greating, bye, veneration, short talks, quick help. Some infos on regards .


2024 Mar 18 21:42:50
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 18 19:43:59
Dhammañāṇa: Mudita, Nyom.

2024 Mar 18 19:36:35
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Undertaking this Sila day at my best.

2024 Mar 18 06:17:10
Dhammañāṇa: Those who undertake the Sila day today: may it be of much metta.

2024 Mar 18 02:16:41
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 17 21:09:31
អរិយវង្ស: 🚬🚬🚬

2024 Mar 17 06:30:53
Dhammañāṇa: Metta-full Sila day, those after it today.

2024 Mar 17 00:02:34
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 11 09:16:04
Dhammañāṇa: Once totally caught by google, AI and machines, every door has been closed for long, long term.

2024 Mar 11 09:14:04
Dhammañāṇa: People at large just wait that another would do his/her duty. Once a slight door to run back, they are gone. By going again just for debts, the wheel of running away turns on.

2024 Mar 10 18:59:10
Dhammañāṇa: Less are those who don't use the higher Dhamma not for defilement-defence, less those who don't throw the basics away and turn back to sensuality "with ease".

2024 Mar 10 06:51:11
Dhammañāṇa: A auspicious new-moon Uposatha for those observing it today.

2024 Mar 09 06:34:39
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed New-moon Uposatha, and birth reminder day of a monarchy of wonders.

2024 Mar 08 21:39:54
Dhammañāṇa: The best way to keep an Ashram silent is to put always duties and Sila high. If wishing it populated, put meditation (eating) on the first place.

2024 Mar 03 21:27:27
Dhammañāṇa: May those undertaking the Sila day today, spend it off in best ways, similar those who go after the days purpose tomorrow.

2024 Feb 25 22:10:33
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 24 06:42:35
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Māgha Pūjā and Full moon Uposatha with much reason for good recallings of goodness.

2024 Feb 24 01:50:55
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 23 06:39:57
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Feb 23 00:19:58
blazer: Taken flu again... at least leg pain has been better managed since many weeks and it's the greatest benefit. Hope Bhante Dhammañāṇa is fine  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 01:06:43
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 00:02:37
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 17 18:47:31
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of todays Sila-day.

2024 Feb 17 18:46:59
Dhammañāṇa: Chau Marco, chau...

2024 Feb 16 23:32:59
blazer: Just ended important burocratic and medical stuff. I will check for a flight for Cambodia soon  _/\_

2024 Feb 09 16:08:32
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 12:17:31
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 06:42:17
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed New moon Uposatha and last day of the Chinese year of the rabbit, entering the Year of the Naga wisely.

2024 Feb 02 21:17:28
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 02 19:53:28
Dhammañāṇa: May all have the possibility to spend a pleasing rest of Sila day, having given goodness and spend a faultless day.

2024 Jan 26 14:40:25
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 25 10:02:46
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Full moon Uposatha.

2024 Jan 11 06:37:21
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 07 06:31:20
Dhammañāṇa: May many, by skilful deeds,  go for real and lasting independence today

2024 Jan 06 18:00:36
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 16:57:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 12:33:08
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila-day, full of metta in thoughts, speech and deeds.

2023 Dec 30 20:21:07
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 27 23:18:38
Dhammañāṇa: May the rest of a bright full moon Uposatha serve many as a blessed day of good deeds.

2023 Dec 26 23:12:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 24 16:52:50
Dhammañāṇa: May all who celebrated the birth of their prophet, declaring them his ideas of reaching the Brahma realm, spend peaceful days with family and reflect the goodness near around them, virtuous, generously.

2023 Dec 20 21:36:37
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 20 06:54:09
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by conducting in peacefull manners.

2023 Dec 12 23:45:24
blazer:  _/\_

2023 Dec 12 20:34:26
Dhammañāṇa: choice, yes  :)

2023 Dec 12 13:23:35
blazer: If meaning freedom of choice i understand and agree

2023 Dec 12 12:48:42
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 12 06:13:23
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a great New Moon Uposatha, following the conducts of the Arahats.

2023 Dec 10 12:51:16
Dhammañāṇa: The more freedom of joice, the more troubled in regard of what's right, what's wrong. My person does not say that people at large are prepared for freedom of joice even a little.

2023 Dec 10 10:59:42
blazer: Hope they eat more mindfully than how they talk. It is clear for the gross food, we had more than a talk about this topic. I have put so much effort in mindful eating at the temple, but when i was back i wanted more refined food. I was used to get a choice of more than 10 dishes every day

2023 Dec 10 06:57:44
Dhammañāṇa: A person eating on unskilled thoughts will last defiled, Nyom. Gross food does nothing for purification at all.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:58
blazer: I've had a couple of not nice experiences with monks that were not so pure in my opinion. They surely eat far better than me at temple.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:41
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 09 11:38:36
Dhammañāṇa: Spiritual prostitution, just another way of livelihood.

2023 Dec 05 20:59:38
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 27 14:47:22
អរិយវង្ស:   _/\_ _/\__/\_

2023 Nov 27 05:41:32
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Anapanasati- Fullmoon and reflect the goodness of Ven Sāriputta as well today.

2023 Nov 20 19:18:13
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 20 18:20:15
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 20 02:48:24
Moritz: Hello _/\_ Still possible to join: An-other Journey into the East 2023/24

2023 Nov 18 13:55:11
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 12 01:09:01
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Nov 12 00:45:21
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 19:42:10
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 07:17:02
Dhammañāṇa: សិលា​នាំ​ទៅ​រក​ឯករាជ្យ​នៃ​ជាតិ! សូមឱ្យមនុស្សជាច្រើនប្រារព្ធទិវាឯករាជ្យ(ពី)ជាតិ។

2023 Nov 09 07:06:56
Dhammañāṇa: Sila leads to independence of Jati! May many observe a conductive Independence day.

2023 Nov 07 00:54:02
Dhammañāṇa: Nyoum

2023 Nov 07 00:39:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 15:47:51
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 12:21:27
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila observation day today.

2023 Oct 30 15:17:36
Dhammañāṇa: It's common in to give up that what's given to do assist me toward release, common that seeking security in what binds.

2023 Oct 30 13:22:27
អរិយវង្ស: ព្រះអង្គ :) កូណាលុប delta chat ហើយ :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 23 18:56:09
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 22 20:36:01
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of this Sila-day.

2023 Oct 19 20:31:12
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom Sreyneang

2023 Oct 15 07:07:01
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 14 06:53:21
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a New moon Uposatha based on goodwill for all, find seclusion in the middle of family duties.

2023 Sep 29 07:35:30
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:23:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:03:11
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha and begin of the ancestor weeks by lived metta and virtue: lived gratitude toward all being, toward one self.

2023 Sep 22 22:07:43
Dhammañāṇa: If no rush turn toward reducing sensuality and make Silas the top of priority, it's to fear that an Atomic conflic will be chosen soon, in the battle of control of the "drugs".

2023 Sep 22 14:59:39
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 22 06:35:51
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Uposatha Observance on this Sila-day, by conducting similar the Arahats.

2023 Sep 16 19:29:27
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 16 19:29:13
blazer: Hello everyone! I've just come back home. I had a long trip and no sleep for more than 30 hours, but currently feel quite good. I've had a good experience, i'm happy. I've found out much inspiration and many ideas about the training and the holy life. I'll recollect and write about them as soon as i've taken some rest. Hope to find you all well and in good health  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 15 05:25:24
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 14 21:09:49
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of New moon Uposatha today (later as no connection before).

2023 Sep 10 01:55:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_?

2023 Sep 09 18:52:54
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 09 18:52:28
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 08 06:19:20
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by maintaining goodwill toward all, not only by deeds and speech, but with nine factors, incl. a mind full of metta.

2023 Sep 01 10:54:43
អរិយវង្ស: សាធុ សាធុ សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 01 09:21:09
Dhammañāṇa:  “This verse was stated by earlier worthy ones, fully self-awakened:    Freedom from disease: the foremost good fortune. Unbinding: the foremost ease. The eightfold: the foremost of paths going to the Deathless, Secure.

2023 Sep 01 09:19:23
Dhammañāṇa: 'Ārogyaparamā lābhā nibbānaṃ paramaṃ sukhaṃ, Aṭṭhaṅgiko ca maggānaṃ khemaṃ amatagāmina'nti.   អារោគ្យបរមា លាភា និព្ពានំ បរមំ សុខំ អដ្ថងិកោ ច មគ្គានំ ខេមំ អមតគាមិន នតិ។  លាភទាំងឡាយ មានការមិនមានរោគ ដ៏ប្រសើរបំផុត ព្រះនិព្វាន ជាសុខដ៏ឧត្តម មគ្គប្រកបដោយអង្គ៨ ដ៏ក្សេមក្សាន្តជាងមគ្គទាំងឡាយ សម្រាប់ដំណើរ ទៅកាន់​ព្រះនិព្វាន ឈ្មោះអមតៈ។

2023 Aug 31 06:30:11
អរិយវង្ស: សាធុ សាធុ សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Aug 31 06:08:15
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Fullmoon Uposatha, following the Arahats conducts.

2023 Aug 30 20:19:25
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Aug 30 18:39:38
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Aug 24 19:56:43
Dhammañāṇa: Sadhu, Sadhu and mudita

2023 Aug 24 19:45:08
អរិយវង្ស: កូណា បាននាំគ្រួសាររក្សាសីល8ក្នុងថ្ងៃនេះ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_😌

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Author Topic: Vinaya Comparison of Monastery Allowances - ordination based on choclate and che  (Read 3890 times)

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Offline Dhammañāṇa

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  • Gender: Male
  • (Samana Johann)
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
New article: Compares special allowances by tradition. The BMC is based on the Thai Tradition. I include Dhammayut and the Ajahn Chah (Wat Pah Pong) tradition. I also include Wat Khao Sanamachai and Pa-Auk which follow the commentaries and abhidhamma meticulously. Na-Uyana is also similar too. I give a discussion on smoking, betel, cheese, chocolate, soy milk, abhidhamma/commentaries, robe color, eyebrows, and patimokkha admission policies.
see this link here.
https://americanmonk.org/vinaya-compari ... llowances/

Subhuti

What a foolish act of young yupi-monk...

- It's, to begin, not a monastery that is responsible for one conduct...
- It's furthermore a gratiduteless and poor investigated product, with no doubt on been based on very unskilful mind.
- Even if certaincritic would be justified: how small are the faults in if looking at the bunch of grave faults here to lift oneself...:

Is it allowed to speak of faults of other Bhikkhus to lay-people?
Isn't it highly respectless to speak on Vinaya without having given leave?
Are the means of sharing given?
What are the consequences of going for split in the Sangha?

There no need to speak about the accumulated Kamma and the bunch of backwards given to those bond to fools.

Having dwelled a longer time improper on the beach and missing to clean yourself from the bunch of fault and impure livelihood, it would be good if the Americanmonk... would head for getting good back to the beginning rather than to dwell Nissayaless like an Arahat and eat away the last goodness and merits and possible get one time known real life and the way beyond.

As you are used to censure critic while shooting outwardly from your secure thought position, there is no doubt that you have found equal here, nourishing on the same ugly food.

May you start to take the Buddhas medicine proper to get soon healed in the case you see some benefit in such. No doubt that therwise you may disrobe soon or become another Dhammika-shame for the increase of misfortune in this world... Your choice.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 03:56:03 PM by Johann »
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Offline Dhammañāṇa

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Re: Vinaya Comparison of Monastery Allowances
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 02:36:27 PM »
Since account was already deleted under your kind, Subhuti in the case interested:

Everything I say is in the BMC. What is not in the BMC, the the reason why it is not followed by "other" traditions.
Everything mentioned is public knowledge and I double checked with another monk who is well informed of the Thai Forest Traditions..
There are no names mentioned but it is the way of the tradition.
WKS used to have cheese. They stopped that once they learned that other traditions don't accept that. They researched it and they stopped. They are a righteous tradition which I have lots of respect for.
There is no purpose to criticize the monks. If there is criticism on this forum it is from the users commenting on this article.. I said in the beginning that it is small stuff and the monasteries that are mentioned who live up to their tradition's reputation, are good monks and good monasteries. That is said in the beginning.
The purpose of this is to let people know who want to ordain and decide what is the best monastery for them.

Quote from: Johann
So following master Subhutis word: On the matter of chees "our" monastery lures canditates and doners away to them. Well, shell one prosper with people deciding the path for liberation on such matters, chocolate and chess...

And as drive we insult some Theras of having wrong view... whole Nikayas, putting oil and flames together. And when small-minded of other branches get that known, well, then have "fun" with what you seeked for. It tops even the "color of bolws" blog... Master would do good to start to learn about highered virtue, mind and liberation. Run-a-mill virtue is not suficent for such.

Don't think others do not know the "smarties"-gangs.

To cite resources, one time to using for ones arguments, on time to put it down, also such is very common inside the affliction based on an element.

The way, the kind, the base, the intention... not a single sign for skillfulness but the opposite and who honest things are done, one just needs to remember how master started hus Ajahn Mun researches "not for critic... just courious... does one have resources?"

It's not good, totally not good, to dwell alone and play "lay-mans-hero" who possible fall after suggsetions and think in ways of "I have a right".

Quote from: Subhuti
Samana Johann3 ,
Few people know about Cambodia as a place where foreigners can live or ordain. What is you monastery name and location. Do they use money?
Perhaps you can fill out the table with the topics included according to such a monastery you live in.
You should be open about it. It is not a problem for them and they don't keep it secret. In fact, they want people to know this so people can offer Cheese, Cigarettes, betel etc. Many monasteries are happy and train the lay people to give money to monks. They are open about it because they get all of these things from the lay people.
Let us know the name location and what they do. However, if they use money, I'm not interested in knowing. It is not an allowable place to live in because if they "buy" a floor or paint with money that monks have touched, then the whole building is not allowable.

Quote from: Johann
If one feel in terms of foreigner or matches issues as such, having left home behind and seeks for ordination within the Sangha, then ones setting or Nissaya has still large graps. Likewise when one ordains in a certain Nikaya, Branch or what ever rather then asking for going forth under the Buddha, Dhamma , Sangha... not to speak about monastery attachments...

Sad enought that you internet monks seek householders to bring up issues, non of yo heros has the courage to live at first on what is personally given nor would any of you heros ever use the Sanghas tools and given places for things. Like calves attached on the breast of cow...

May person would wonder of how Masters home-monasteries elders, and preceptor would react it getting the stuff around transated their offspring produces...

Master Subuthi has already been invited (another time here )to live a life without out householder signs and since there might be shipps to cross the ozean, and wise people who might invite to use a co-travel, there will be no hindrence, like to come the hawaii.... Don't do the smart guys poker, it could be more painful as able to imagen. Master has no idea of what it means to live really on what is given. The invitation is still intact since there are less places open to live the holly live and even lesser who could without social-nets and certain "Gita"s... use.

As for the places for training, there are some, but it's hard to doubt that a normal western with less Upanissaya is able to bear certain actually already more luxury conditions, not to speak about the less and very remoted monasteries.

A list of some monasteries can be found here: some with this useless preoccupation sturgles, some with others. And, as far as known, as far as seen or heard, my person did not met a single person able to keep 10 precepts, no matter, west or east, sadly. Great if trying to train, great if trying to match five.

And one should be aware that it's possible no more able to find such as a full funcioning Savaka-Sangha anywhere, but of course he and there are single, manybe two most Ven. fund who would suite as precepter or teacher. Also this is a atter of Upanissaya for the individuall. It's totally useless and foolish to thing it's possible to "google" perfection: it requires having given the proper causes to gain effects. So it's total foolish to lure uninstracted people with such suggestions, taking even run-a-mill issues. Within the no-chocolate, chees, tobacco traditions, even addvertising it, if not other ways of doing, this at least has already shoot them off by Sg. 13. like the most modern "we are meditator not even drink tee Noble ones"-traditions. And how and where would they ever get ride of this fault? Master?

Again, if searching for "Smarties" and there day in and day out philosophical investigations, who are not able to train in highered virtues, there are enought to be found also many "bad" guys as food for them.

The sad thing, especially with this neither sekha nor asekha monks all around is, that they hardly would care about there new family but serving householders, that is really sad. Yet of course, like they broadly had corrupted families, they hardly ever find ways out again... Just for the case some likes to make merits or one or another of you Ven. "Yupy"-monks feels obligated for his kind and his focus of service obligation.

Quote
MANGE

The Buddha said, “Monks, did you see the jackal running around here in the evening? Did you see him? Standing still it suffered. Running around it suffered. Sitting down it suffered. Lying down it suffered. Going into the hollow of a tree, it suffered. Going into a cave, it felt ill at ease. It suffered because it thought, 'Standing here isn't good. Sitting isn't good. Lying down isn't good. This bush isn't good. This tree hollow isn't good. This cave isn't good.' So it kept running all the time. Actually, that jackal has mange. Its discomfort doesn't come from the bush or the tree hollow or the cave, from sitting, standing, or lying down. It comes from the mange.”

You monks are the same. Your discomfort comes from your wrong views. You hold onto ideas that are poisonous and so you're tormented. You don't exert restraint over your senses, so you blame other things. You don't know what's going on inside you. When you stay here at Wat Nong Pah Pong, you suffer. You go to America and suffer. You go to London and suffer. You go to Wat Bung Wai and suffer. You go to every branch monastery and suffer. Wherever you go, you suffer. This comes from the wrong views that still lie within you. Your views are wrong and you hold onto ideas that are poisonous in your hearts. Wherever you go you suffer. You're like that jackal.

Once you recover from your mange, though, you can be at ease wherever you go: at ease out in the open, at ease in the wild. I think about this often and keep teaching it to you because this point of Dhamma is very useful.

As long as the strong wave of wrong views and demanding Western/moderns are very very less in Cambodia it will remain a land of where Khmer (Khema) might dwell. So just if willing to let go and prepared for a battle hard to win. Otherwise use google or ask social-monks of what might be the best monastery, they might give you the "I/we have a right" deal offer. Here a topic of someone having appeared like a twin of master: What is the best monastery to ordain ?

Since it could be that Bhikkhu Subhuti was serious when asking (which of course has less space of being the case, but anyway), my person moved the topic to public (since modern monks are lesser scared to enter what is not given and follow the "Villagers ways", collector and hunter ways, usually...).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 03:55:14 PM by Johann »
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There are many people who, because treated by small minded people and there views, break up the training because of health proplems, having simply problems to maintain their body, having not the best digestion or immune system. And there are not less. Sadly in association with fools who by giving their ideas more value as to provide with helpful alternatives even force people to give up their training, leave Brahmachariya, quite with eight precepts and also disrobe.

To understand the spirit of tonics:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.VI.1.1) [25] Now at that time the Buddha, the Blessed One, was staying at Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s Monastery. And at that time, the bhikkhus, afflicted by the autumn disease, would throwup the conjey they had drunk and the meals they had eaten. Because of this they were thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins. The Blessed One saw them — thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins — and on seeing them, addressed Ven. Ānanda,

“Ānanda, why are the monks, at this time, thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins?”

“Lord, at this time the monks, afflicted by the autumn disease, throw up the conjey they have drunk and the meals they have eaten. Because of this they are thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.”

(Mv.VI.1.2) Then, as the Blessed One was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness:

“At this time the monks, afflicted by the autumn disease, throw up the conjey they have drunk and the meals they have eaten. Because of this they are thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.

“What if I were to allow medicine for them that would be both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food, yet would not be considered substantial food.”

Then the thought occurred to him: “There are these five tonics — ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses — that are both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food, yet would not be considered substantial food.

“What if I were now to allow the monks, having accepted them at the right time (from dawnrise to noon), to consume them at the right time?”

(Mv.VI.1.3) Then, when it was evening, the Blessed One rose from seclusion and, having given a Dhamma talk with regard to this cause, to this incident, addressed the monks:

“Just now, monks, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness:

“‘At this time the monks, afflicted by the autumn disease, throw up the conjey they have drunk and the meals they have eaten. Because of this they are thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.

“‘What if I were to allow medicine for them that would be both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food, yet would not be considered substantial food.’

“Then this thought occurred to me: ‘There are these five tonics — ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses — that are both medicine and agreed to be medicine by the world, and fulfill the purpose of food yet would not be considered substantial food.

“‘What if I were now to allow the monks, having accepted them at the right time (from dawnrise to noon), to consume them at the right time?’

“Monks, I allow that the five tonics, having been accepted at the right time, be consumed at the right time.”

(Mv.VI.1.4) [26] Now at that time monks, having accepted the five tonics at the right time, consumed them at the right time. (Because of this) they could not stomach even ordinary coarse foods, much less rich, greasy ones. As a result, afflicted both by the autumn disease and this loss of appetite for meals, they became even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins. The Blessed One saw them — even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins — and on seeing them, addressed Ven. Ānanda,

“Ānanda, why are the monks now even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins?”

(Mv.VI.1.5) “At this time, the monks, having accepted the five tonics at the right time, consume them at the right time.

“Because of this they can’t stomach even ordinary coarse foods, much less rich, greasy ones.

“As a result, afflicted both by the autumn disease and this loss of appetite for meals, they are even more thin, wretched, unattractive, pale, their bodies covered with veins.”

Then the Blessed One, having given a Dhamma talk with regard to this cause, to this incident, addressed the monks:

“Monks, I allow that the five tonics, having been accepted, be consumed at the right time or the wrong time.”

(Mv.VI.2.1) [27] Now at that time the sick monks needed tallow-medicine. They reported the matter to the Blessed One.

“Monks, I allow that tallow-medicine — i.e., tallow from bears, tallow from fish, tallow from alligators, tallow from pigs, tallow from donkeys — be consumed as oil if received in the right time, rendered in the right time, and filtered in the right time.[2]

(Mv.VI.2.2) “Monks, if one should consume what is received in the wrong time, rendered in the wrong time, and filtered in the wrong time: three offenses of wrong-doing.

“Monks, if one should consume what is received in the right time, rendered in the wrong time, and filtered in the wrong time: two offenses of wrong-doing.

“Monks, if one should consume what is received in the right time, rendered in the right time, and filtered in the wrong time: an offense of wrong-doing.

“Monks, if one should consume what is received in the right time, rendered in the right time, and filtered in the right time: no offense.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(១៦០. បញ្ចភេសជ្ជកថា)

[៧៣] សម័យនោះ ព្រះពុទ្ធដ៏មានព្រះភាគ គង់នៅវត្ត​ជេតពន​របស់អនាថបិណ្ឌិកសេដ្ឋី ទៀបក្រុងសាវត្ថី។ គ្រានោះឯង ពួក​ភិក្ខុកើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាល​33) បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ។ ព្រោះហេតុនោះ ពួក​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះក៏​មានខ្លួនស្គាំងស្គម​សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរ​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ។ ព្រះដ៏មានព្រះភាគ​បានទតឃើញ​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ​ស្គាំងស្គម សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរអាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ លុះទតឃើញ​ហើយ ក៏ត្រាស់ហៅព្រះអានន្ទ​ដ៏មានអាយុ​មកថា ម្នាលអានន្ទ ក្នុងពេលនេះ ហេតុដូចម្តេច​បានជា​ពួក​ភិក្ខុ​ស្គាំងស្គម សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរអាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ។ ព្រះអានន្ទ​ក្រាបទូលថា បពិត្រព្រះអង្គ​ដ៏ចំរើន ឥឡូវនេះ ពួក​ភិក្ខុ​កើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាល បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ ព្រោះអាពាធនោះ បានជា​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះស្គំាងស្គម ​សៅហ្មង មានសម្បុរ​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ។ គ្រានោះ ព្រះ​មានព្រះភាគ ទ្រង់​គង់​សម្ងំ​នៅក្នុងទីស្ងាត់ ក៏មានព្រះ​ហឫទ័យ​ត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ឥឡូវនេះ ពួកភិក្ខុកើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាល បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ ព្រោះអាពាធនោះហើយ បានជា​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ ទៅជាស្គាំងស្គម ​សៅហ្មង មាន​សម្បុរ​​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ (ឥឡូវ) វត្ថុដែល​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ក៏មាន វត្ថុដែលគេសន្មត​ថាជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ក៏មាន វត្ថុដែលផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោក ក៏មាន វត្ថុដែលជា​​អាហារ​មិនបានគ្រោតគ្រាត ក៏មាន តើគួរ​តថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​វត្ថុ​ដូចម្តេច ទើបសមគួរ​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ដល់ភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយហ្ន៎។ លំដាប់នោះ ព្រះមានព្រះភាគ ទ្រង់​ត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥នេះគឺ ទឹកដោះរាវ១ ទឹកដោះខាប់១ ប្រេង១ ទឹកឃ្មុំ១ ស្ករអំពៅ១ វត្ថុ​ទាំងនេះ ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ផង ដែលគេ​សន្មត​ថាជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ផង ផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោកផង ​ជាអាហារ​មិនបានគ្រោតគ្រាតផង បើដូច្នោះ មានតែតថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥​នេះដល់​ពួកភិក្ខុ​ ដើម្បី​ឲ្យភិក្ខុ​ទទួល​ក្នុងកាលគួរ ឆាន់ក្នុង​កាលគួរ​34) ​បាន។ ព្រោះនិទាននេះ ដំណើរនេះ ទើបព្រះមានព្រះភាគ ទ្រង់ចេញ​អំពីទីសម្ងំ ក្នុងទីស្ងាត់ នៅវេលា​សាយណ្ហសម័យ ហើយទ្រង់​ធ្វើ​ធម្មីកថា រួចត្រាស់​ហៅ​ភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ​មកថា ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ ក្នុងវេលានេះ តថាគត​សម្ងំ​នៅក្នុងទីស្ងាត់ មានចិត្តត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ឥឡូវនេះ ពួកភិក្ខុកើត​អាពាធ (ប្រមាត់) ក្នុងសរទកាលហើយ បបរ​ដែល​ហុតទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ បាយដែល​ឆាន់ទៅ ក៏ចង្អោរ​ចេញមកវិញ ព្រោះអាពាធនោះ ទើបបានជា​ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ​ស្គាំងស្គម ​សៅហ្មង មាន​សម្បុរ​​អាក្រក់ កើតជារោគលឿង ស្លេកស្លាំង មានខ្លួន​រវាម​ដោយសរសៃ វត្ថុខ្លះ​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ វត្ថុខ្លះដែលគេសន្មត​ថាជាភេសជ្ជៈ វត្ថុខ្លះផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោក វត្ថុខ្លះជា​​អាហារ​មិន​បាន​គ្រោត​គ្រាត តើគួរ​តថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​វត្ថុ​ដូចម្តេច ទើបសមគួរ​ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ដល់ភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយហ្ន៎ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ តថាគតឯង មានសេចក្តី​ត្រិះរិះ​ដូច្នេះថា ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥នេះគឺ ទឹកដោះរាវ១ ទឹកដោះខាប់១ ប្រេង១ ទឹកឃ្មុំ១ ស្ករអំពៅ១ របស់​ទាំងនេះ ជាភេសជ្ជៈ​ផង ដែលគេ​សន្មត​ថា​ជា​ភេសជ្ជៈ​​ផង ផ្សាយទៅ​សម្រាប់​ជាអាហារ​របស់​មនុស្ស​លោកផង ​ជាអាហារ​មិនបាន​គ្រោត​គ្រាត​ផង បើដូច្នោះ មានតែតថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥​នេះ ដល់​ភិក្ខុ​ទាំងឡាយ​ ដើម្បី​ឲ្យភិក្ខុ​ទទួល​ក្នុងកាលគួរ បរិភោគក្នុង​កាលគួរ។ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ តថាគត​អនុញ្ញាត​ឲ្យភិក្ខុ​ទទួល​ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥នោះ ក្នុងកាលគួរ បរិភោគ​ក្នុងកាលគួរ។

So it is not so that this 5 tonics are pure medical means in modern sense, put simply support in nutrition. Yet at the same time not considered as stable food but very effective in supplying with substance.

One of cause needs to know circumstances when ones body is no more/not maintainable with just one meal.

Autumn disease, causing much trouble with the immune system, but also disease like Malaria, if such, and that is not seldom in South East Asia, especially when dwelling in forest and mountain area, such as appetite is very rare and if a person is practicing he furthermore has not much effort in regard of food and care.

It was for example surely up to this allowances and wise consideration of not at least Ven. Thanissaro, that lay people have been able to successfully maintain this body by supplying certain tonics.

Cheese, Ghee, Butter, Oil, Sugar:

One needs to know that what ever is made from cow-milk in SEAsia is merely unknown and it's only the last years that people know products such as butter and chees, yet those are 100% import products in Cambodia.

Ghee is even in Europe and other countries outside of India merely unknown.

Modern/western people at large, have no real idea about food as simple nurishing the body, neither know starving nor being left to sickness without countless ways to act against it.

In regard of chees as an alternative to Ghee, there are many kinds of unreal chees, mostly from American food industry, using milk as additive. Such "fake"-chees is probably not proper. But what ever chees with high amount of fat and less special preparation, such as fungi and special additives, like chedar or certain mozarella might provide the spirit. Chees of this kind can be kept for a week without getting addled.

Effective is also sugar/palm sugar headed mixed with oil and can be stored a week also without problem.

There is also no reason at all why not using dark chocolate (without milk and other additives then oil and sugar) for this purpose.

Coffee, coffein, Energy-drinks

Even in the Suttas (DN21...) such as the Cola-nut can be found as standard support for ascetics, making various drinks... out of it as well, yet containing much more fat and coffein as coffee.

Certain energy-drinks are in many areas the only provider of certain Vitamins, sugar and tonic-means.

One has to know that living really on alms can be very single-edged. So one should not be scared in using such for tonic, not to speak about iso-tonic drinks.

It's a different life as that of monks using subway, marked and fastfood coupons and credit certificates, yet insulting others because they using money as well. That's all but hypocritical approaches of yuppies and to argue their particular work around on short commings which are mostly of actually grave faults.

Another supply in the "wrong time for eating" is to drink prepeared rest water from rice-cooking, if provided with such on the very same day. If, in cases that such is not avaliable, flour would be cooked in water, it might serve the same spirit.

Those topics around tonics and medicine can be food for endless discussions but if knowing the rules and red-string within them and if maintaining Sacca (truthfulness toward one self and intentions) there are really less grave problems with the many allowance given and again, one should not grow discouraged in regard of matters that touching health and basic health support to maintain this decaying body till it has done it's task well. And after this: may one also leave others the possibility to maintain such a lasting body further, in proper ways and how ever they may wish and think to keep it maintained.

It was not only one time that it is simply by wise, sometimes tricky consideration and effort of people with Saddha, that this body did not already serves as food for many others and is still compounded and serves for doing merits for others.

Real ascetic live has nothing to do with modern wellness approaches, diet-views and what ever modern monks and health, youth, life-drunken people develop on ideas, starting from vegetarian, vegan, wellness food, bio... the whole industry of identification. Yet, if such people who "i need" in various ways start to interpret, that it's simply an act of justify short-comings and to try to lift themselves out of real grave faults be belittling others. But that does not work. It's not possible to use others to step on them to leave ones hole one has fallen into.

And in regard of the money issue: as said, my person has not really come across maybe one or two people who really keep this precept. Sad but true... how ever, my person found those of them, now still incapable, who use it by themselves (and have to be ashamed all the time) more authentic and with possible better future, as those who rest on what ever hypocritical alternative or using others like kings to hold on such as certain gains or to maintain the feeling of control of own.

Now what does one think about a smarty, trying to teach elders, whole Nikayas and lives in such ways, with such desires... and really improper "connecting", livelihood...

Never the less as you can see things have been getting better.  I can get a can of organic soup and a nonGMO health bar from The North Shore Pharmacy courtesy of the owner.  I also have a new connection with the local Health Food store, but have not successfully tried it yet.  If that works, I will be on the road to independence.  Luckily my long time friend who lives on Aalona street prepares extra food for me as needed.  Today I had some oats and a salad from him.  It was not just a small salad either.  It was a whole bowl to feed a family of five. 

If I really need it, I have a Subway sandwich ticket waiting for me at the local Subway shop.  I usually take one every two or three weeks when my friend is not available to give me oats and salads.  They know me at the Subway shop and the ticket for a vegi-patty Sub is now waiting for me to claim it.  The subs will soon be replaced by the generosity of the owners from the local health food store if communication is correct.

So I do get fed, and yes, sometimes quite well, but not from alms alone.  It is not so easy though.

Again: The moderate mode of life of Noble Ones and those following them, has nothing to do with modern wellness-ideologies and hypocritical ideas to "feel good" and the different is possible only then understood when one really leaves home, really abounds all signs of householders and really lives in ways to maintain the body with given for just another day.

Beetle nuts

My person does not really know much on this subject and got just informed on one reason why elders often use it, a very simple and reasonable, to reduce pain caused by decaying teeth, something propably merely unknown in modern world and for those holding certain founds.

One should be clear that such as "going to the doctor" or even regulary checks... may just be common in very organised sociaties but for someone not living on any special dependency, it's merely very accidentally that ones body would be supplied by modern treatments.
Out of this my person would be careful judging especially elders when using such in total improper ways.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 05:08:12 PM by Johann »
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