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2019 May 20 04:14:26
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2019 May 20 01:31:27
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2019 May 19 11:28:39
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2019 May 19 11:27:48
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2019 May 18 23:55:08
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2019 May 18 10:34:49
amanaki: Thank you Johann  _/\_

2019 May 18 09:59:33
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2019 May 18 09:24:56
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2019 May 18 09:24:35
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2019 May 18 09:22:43
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2019 May 18 09:21:31
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2019 May 18 05:03:47
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2019 May 18 02:16:49
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2019 May 14 07:51:30
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 May 14 05:40:54
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2019 May 13 18:38:46
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ (sitting in Taxi)

2019 May 12 15:44:32
Johann: But better ask Nyom Chanroth, since Atma does not walk that far these days.

2019 May 12 15:04:01
Johann: not teally, Nyom Vithou. Still less water in the streams here. Some still dry. Needs a while down from the mountains and not that much rain yet.

2019 May 12 14:54:37
Vithou: how is the road Bhante? Is it float at the mountain leg?

2019 May 12 14:51:59
Vithou:   _/\_

2019 May 12 14:40:43
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2019 May 12 14:38:33
Vithou: Bhante, how is everything at Asrum? Is it raining everyday?

2019 May 12 07:05:30
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2019 May 12 03:58:19
Johann: a joyful day in merits on this Sila-day

2019 May 11 17:04:10
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2019 May 11 16:16:56
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2019 May 11 05:35:39
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2019 May 11 00:52:44
Johann: an meritful Uposatha, those keeping it today

2019 May 10 17:14:43
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2019 May 10 17:09:07
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2019 May 10 17:07:14
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2019 May 10 16:19:14
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2019 May 07 19:12:10
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2019 May 05 04:26:53
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2019 May 04 11:41:08
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2019 May 04 10:27:38
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2019 May 03 10:08:09
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2019 May 03 01:17:53
Johann: A meritful new moon Uposatha those celebrating it today.

2019 May 03 01:16:05
Johann: Talk box is buggy and lines love to jump. Better not editing.

2019 May 03 01:14:19
Johann: U Chanroth: "ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំបាទ បានទទួលនៅសម្ភារៈមួយចំនួន សម្រាប់កសាងអាស្រមថ្មទូកសូមជូនបុណ្យដល់ពុទ្ធបរិសទ័ទាំងអស់គ

2019 May 02 15:15:58
Cheav Villa:   <.I.> _/\_

2019 May 02 15:15:17
Cheav Villa: Sorry because of kh font doesn't run well on my phone. Kana go to edit  to see the right  shout but  was wrong by deleting Pou  Chanroth 's  shout

2019 May 02 15:01:04
Cheav Villa: Mudita  :) _/\_

2019 May 02 13:47:17
Moritz: Anumodana puñña kusala! _/\_

2019 May 01 14:49:38
Johann: Now some monks are so close to many, that they can be visited even by feet.

2019 May 01 06:27:25
Johann: Thats accoss the whole city and hot (but cloudy  :) ) Best wishes and greatings.

2019 May 01 06:22:36
Cheav Villa: Get lost in the jungle of Phnom Penh from 2pm till 6pm

2019 May 01 05:40:26
Cheav Villa: Bhante Khemakumara arrived at Wat Sophea Khun in late evening  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 29 09:19:56
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Apr 29 08:51:27
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 29 03:07:40
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_ I am going to sleep.

2019 Apr 29 02:59:19
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2019 Apr 29 02:41:01
Moritz: _/\_ Bong Villa

2019 Apr 29 01:02:45
Johann: let's see wheter the rain has swept away the new floor ...

2019 Apr 28 13:58:19
Cheav Villa: First time of Heavy rain in Phnom Penh  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 28 10:33:14
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​សាធុ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 28 10:21:50
Johann: Oh, rain.

2019 Apr 28 08:46:02
Johann: Pleasing soft weather, yes  :)

2019 Apr 28 08:45:28
Johann: Atma rejoices with the may who possible are able to see a death man walking toward the deathless, and have even occation for a lot of spontan merits.

2019 Apr 28 07:31:59
Cheav Villa: May​ Bhante be well  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_  The sky has been cloudy since 10:30am

2019 Apr 28 03:02:15
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 May Bhante Khemakumara walk(nimun) safely. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 27 20:51:41
Johann:  :)

2019 Apr 27 20:51:11
Johann: may it be cloudy (in the hot time) so that feet may be well

2019 Apr 27 17:53:19
Moritz: May Bhante travel safely. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 27 16:38:40
Cheav Villa: May​ the Mighty Devas protected Bhante Khemakumara along the path to Wat Sophea Khun  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 27 16:03:29
Cheav Villa: ខ្ញុំ​កូណាបាន លឺថា ព្រះអង្គ​ Kemakumara នឹង​និមន្ត ចេញពី វត្ត​អកយំ​ នៅថ្ងៃស្អែក

2019 Apr 27 16:01:32
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 27 14:28:42
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Apr 27 06:55:13
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Apr 27 06:54:35
Cheav Villa:   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 27 06:31:42
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Apr 27 06:09:34
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 27 05:42:54
Moritz: _/\_

2019 Apr 27 00:54:04
Johann: A blessed and meritful halfmoon Sila-day

2019 Apr 25 07:32:44
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻អរព្រះគុណ ព្រះអង្គ

2019 Apr 25 04:42:51
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom. (May well-being come to fullfillment.)

2019 Apr 25 02:30:46
Ieng Puthy: តេីលោកRoman មានបំណងទៅវត្តអកយំនៅថ្ងៃណាដែរ?ព្រះអង្គ🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

2019 Apr 25 02:29:26
Ieng Puthy: ករុណានិង បងសុភឿន នឹងជូនលោកRoman ទៅវត្តអកយំបាន

2019 Apr 25 02:28:00
Ieng Puthy: ករុណានិង បង សុភឿន នឹងជួយស

2019 Apr 25 02:27:00
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាថ្វាយបង្គំុព្រះអង្គ Vandami Bhante

2019 Apr 24 17:56:05
Cheav Villa: កូណា សរសេរពួកយើង​ គឺជំនួសមុខ​ បងពុទ្ធីនិងសុភឿន  _/\_

2019 Apr 24 17:54:42
Cheav Villa: បង​ពុទ្ធី បានអោយកូណាសួរអំពីពេលវេលា​ ដែលលោកRoman នឹងទៅអកយំ _/\_

2019 Apr 24 17:52:47
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_  កូណាបាន ប្រាប់បងពុទ្ធី និង​សុ​ភឿន ប្រសិនបើគាត់អាចជួយបាន ព្រោះកូណាមិនមានសេរីភាពច្រើនដូចពួកគាត់

2019 Apr 24 17:01:34
Johann: Modern (ab)art of conversation and old patient culture...  :) great training only serious take on and rushing hide on messanger, fb, or in the ocean of Maras internet. Mudita.  :)

2019 Apr 23 13:36:18
Cheav Villa: Kana :D _/\_

2019 Apr 23 13:24:57
Johann: ? But light is always good. Oh, maybe the honey bee candles...: Atma told Upasika Sophorn to take them with her to share, since the mices would eat them away here. Mudita

2019 Apr 23 12:52:51
Cheav Villa: Kana Preah Ang  _/\_ Vithou told kana that Bhante sending us a pair of candles all through Bang Sophorn  :D _/\_

2019 Apr 23 12:06:15
Johann: Nyom Villa. Atma does not understand all circumstances but much mudita and appreciantion with sharing merits with each other, taking each other along good.

2019 Apr 23 11:04:23
Cheav Villa: កូណា ទើបបានដំណឹងពី Vithou ថាព្រះអង្គផ្ញើទានមួយគូមក តាមរយៈ​បងសុភ័ណ​ ខ្ញុំកូណា​សូម​អរព្រះគុណ​  :) _/\_

2019 Apr 23 11:02:19
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Apr 23 02:03:31
Johann: Nyom. (smilies of the common places are not visible here for many)

2019 Apr 22 17:36:16
Ieng Puthy: 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻ករុណាសូមថ្វាយបង្គំុ Vandami Bhante

2019 Apr 22 15:54:07
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz  _/\_

2019 Apr 22 15:03:17
Moritz: _/\_ Bong Villa

2019 Apr 20 07:30:33
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Apr 20 05:25:34
Moritz: _/\_ bong Vithou

2019 Apr 19 06:30:18
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Apr 19 06:25:58
Moritz: _/\_ bong Villa

2019 Apr 19 06:25:48
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

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Author Topic: [Q&A] Dukkha vs legitimate need  (Read 658 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] Dukkha vs legitimate need
« on: March 08, 2019, 02:16:44 PM »
Dukkha vs legitimate need

Quote from: Asked by Nyom Alex on BSE

I heard a talk by Ajahn Amaro that says that wherever I encounter dukha, it is a sign that there is a attachment involved, that I can let go of and this way free myself from the attachment.

https://youtu.be/-h_O_SuKOKE?t=2823

But this way, what prevents me from laying down and dying from hunger or thirst - if I feel hunger, it may be dukha from my attachment to food, or to survival...

What is the difference between attachment and legitimate needs?

Thanks for answering a noob question.

Here, how ever a modified, expanded answer

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Venerable memebers of the Sangha,
Ven. Fellows,

Upasak, Upasika,

Nyom Alex, and those interested,

"What is the difference between attachment and legitimate needs?"


What's a legitimate need? One, one would tolerate because having still the same incapacity, like laws are usually made, or common-society conducts agreements? Desires are endless and most cause harm, even if agreed for a particular common society and not that of Nobel Ones. Therefore better to focus on (given/giving) actions (causes) than "material" things or fruits (effects). Effects need (their) related giving into to cause certain appearing.

The Dhamma is not about "rights" but about "duties" to be fulfilled if wishing for certain aim. No right and legitimization of improper given by anybody, but cause and effect seen clear, explained what one should do and one should not do to gain long lasting freedom from suffering!

A legitimate action for a good for one self and all others, which is required - by thoughts, words or hysical deeds - is one that does neither take live, take others possession, takes away the truth, takes sensuality harmful from others around, takes away ones heed-fullness by intoxication: i.e. the precepts). That's probably not so good matched if just saying "let go" generally, and the precepts help that defilements would not have a change to cheat and argue.

At least right effort is twofold: what to nourish, force, develop and what to denourish, under-press and relinquish. So one should never let go of good: i.e. generosity is good, not taking live, taking what is not giving, signs that steal the truth... not intoxicating oneself, respect those/that worthy of respect, helping ones parents, tending to renouncing of ordinary life.

One who would let go of needed, path, good... such is a fool or didn't got it right told. So a lot of "greed" is required to gain long lasting happiness and go beyond suffering and as one knows ever sacrifice is hurtful at first place.

What then might be left as attachment, after having given up the bad and grasping the good, fine. One might just look inside in a more refined way, since dukkha would probably again arise.

As the Sublime Buddha told: it's much better to bear Dukkha then to break the precepts, let go of good.

And at least one could go just for alms: is that legitimate where you live, in the modern society and it's rules so pride on them?  That's the highest way of conduct and livelihood, to provide ones "needs" (4 paccaya) without doing any reasonable harm to anyone, aside oneself if doing such for impure aims, just to be able to cross to the other shore and/or to give others a possibility to make good and fruitful merits (to get a little bond to liberation).

Train Your Hunger (The Sea Squirt) might be a useful talk in addition here.

And what worth would it have to just let go before really free of Dukkha? "I gave up everything, yet still suffer...?", since the deep, hard root of it was not traced, not seen. It's most legitimate to seek for overcoming all Dukkha, although there might be those don't like to see one liberated while by one self caught , since it benefits all, incl. those disliking it, incl. oneself. Proper way (without violating precepts) to maintain one body (for ones safety here and later) and the entertainment of mind, livelihood for the mind, is also important, best if dwelling in Jhana 3+ or talk, deeds around Dhamma.

Another expanded teaching, to understand the different of Wisdom/real compassion and Justice is:

Wisdom over Justice , by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2017; 17p./90kB) [PDF icon]
    Bhante Thanissaro gives here a patiently talk, in form of an essay, why skillful means are more important then to pursuit a certain right or a final objectivity and points out generosily, why so many practicing people have a hardship in regard of central worldview, so that it could be possible understood in it's details. Engaged Buddhism is against usual views and means around it not a tabu, following the Buddhas ideas about it.


...which might explain further the different of common and popular views and that of the wise and traditional.

Finally a clear approach of the sages at the Sublime Buddhas time:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

As he was sitting there, Ven. Sariputta said to him, "I trust, Dhanañjani, that you are heedful?"

"From where would we get any heedfulness, master? — when parents are to be supported, wife & children are to be supported, slaves & workers are to be supported, friend-&-companion duties are to be done for friends & companions, kinsmen-&-relative duties for kinsmen & relatives, guest duties for guests, departed-ancestor duties for departed ancestors, devata duties for devatas, king duties for the king, and this body also has to be refreshed & nourished."

"What do you think Dhanañjani? There is the case where a certain person, for the sake of his mother & father, does what is unrighteous, does what is discordant. Then, because of his unrighteous, discordant behavior, hell-wardens drag him off to hell. Would he gain anything by saying, 'I did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of my mother & father. Don't [throw] me into hell, hell-wardens!' Or would his mother & father gain anything for him by saying, 'He did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for our sake. Don't [throw] him into hell, hell-wardens!'?"

"No, master Sariputta. Even right while he was wailing, they'd cast him into hell."

"What do you think Dhanañjani? There is the case where a certain person, for the sake of his wife & children ... his slaves & workers ... his friends & companions ... his kinsmen & relatives ... his guests ... his departed ancestors ... the devatas ... the king, does what is unrighteous, does what is discordant. Then, because of his unrighteous, discordant behavior, hell-wardens drag him off to hell. Would he gain anything by saying, 'I did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of the king. Don't [throw] me into hell, hell-wardens!' Or would the king gain anything for him by saying, 'He did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for our sake. Don't [throw] him into hell, hell-wardens!'?"

"No, master Sariputta. Even right while he was wailing, they'd cast him into hell."

"What do you think Dhanañjani? There is the case where a certain person, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, does what is unrighteous, does what is discordant. Then, because of his unrighteous, discordant behavior, hell-wardens drag him off to hell. Would he gain anything by saying, 'I did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing my body. Don't [throw] me into hell, hell-wardens!' Or would others gain anything for him by saying, 'He did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body. Don't [throw] him into hell, hell-wardens!'?"

"No, master Sariputta. Even right while he was wailing, they'd cast him into hell."

"Now, what do you think, Dhanañjani? Which is the better: one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant; or one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is righteous, what is concordant?

"Master Sariputta, the one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant, is not the better one. The one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is righteous, what is concordant would be the better one there. Righteous behavior, concordant behavior, is better than unrighteous behavior, discordant behavior.[2]

"Dhanañjani, there are other activities — reasonable, righteous — by which one can support one's mother & father, and at the same time both not do evil and practice the practice of merit.

"What do you think, Dhanañjani: Which is the better: one who, for the sake of his wife & children ... his slaves & workers ... his friends & companions ... his kinsmen & relatives ... his guests ... his departed ancestors ... the devatas ... the king ... refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant; or one who, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is righteous, what is concordant?

"Master Sariputta, the one who, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant, is not the better one. The one who, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is righteous, what is concordant would be the better one there. Righteous behavior, concordant behavior, is better than unrighteous behavior, discordant behavior.[3]

 "Dhanañjani, there are other activities — reasonable, righteous — by which one can refresh & nourish one's body, and at the same time both not do evil and practice the practice of merit."

Then Dhanañjani the brahman, delighting & rejoicing in Ven. Sariputta's words, got up from his seat and left.

Mudita

Quote from: Alex to the sorter talk
Thanks a lot! I was very happy to read this talk - very inspiring and clarifying things! And also directly answers the question I asked!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 02:24:30 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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